Flash Development-is it ever gonna happen?

[gearjunkie]

I know the question has been asked before as to whether there is a development platform for flash on Linux, and I know there isn't one right now. I was wondering if anyone out there knows if there any any projects in the works to make this a reality. Flash is becoming a BIG part of the internet, and my personal opinion is that we will start seeing it more often in websites all over the place. It is one of the few remaining things that is keeping me from spending more time in Linux on my computer, and I'd like to change that.
I'm don't really know how to program, so unfortunately I can't donate that skill to a project like this, but I thought since it's becoming such a large part of the internet content there might be some obscure project going on.....
just a thought.
-nathan

[sarah31]

i know of no such project. you could take a look on freshmeat or sourceforge. the problem comes in that the code is not open source (if i am not mistaken) so it would have to be backwards engineeered.

on a more personal note i despise flash. I much prefer static images that do not force me to rely on some plugin that is poorly coded and is a hinderance to many impared peoples' internet experience. if my flash plugin fails me i cannot get into many of my favorite sites because they have some precursor flash garbage that i MUST view before i can even enter the site. that is an immense pile of bs i don't come to the site to see some lame flash images listen godawful recorded sound bits.:mad: no flash does not enhance my and many peoples' internet experience.

just my two cents

[terribleRobbo]

The unfortunate thing is that more and more people are now being required to use it (*Shudder*), be it at school, or on the job as a web-designer.

I despise flash. I don't have it installed. I don't WANT it installed. :mad:

(Edit - It appears that by the time someone has learnt how to program, they realise that they hate flash. Hence no dev tools. :D )

[Hayl]

Originally posted by sarah31
i know of no such project. you could take a look on freshmeat or sourceforge. the problem comes in that the code is not open source (if i am not mistaken) so it would have to be backwards engineeered.

on a more personal note i despise flash. I much prefer static images that do not force me to rely on some plugin that is poorly coded and is a hinderance to many impared peoples' internet experience. if my flash plugin fails me i cannot get into many of my favorite sites because they have some precursor flash garbage that i MUST view before i can even enter the site. that is an immense pile of bs i don't come to the site to see some lame flash images listen godawful recorded sound bits.:mad: no flash does not enhance my and many peoples' internet experience.

just my two cents

i agree

[saithan]

php ming libraries can be used to produce flash movies using php.

also a cool toy that might be more of what people want called "Moho"
http://www.lostmarble.com/moho/download.shtml

this is not a free toy although there is a linux free version.

Just tested it out......
it is the closest thing to directly working with macromedia flash as you are going to get on linux.

[evac-q8r]

Sarah31,

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "poorly coded" and therefore it must be "backwards engineered". No it is not open source, that is the application, so all that means is you would need to construct your own gui interface along with libraries to create animation. But all it allows you to do is create a frame-by-frame way of displaying things on the screen. Whether or not flash plugin is or could be made compatible with other animation programs is another question.There are animators and movie-clip generators that are currently being worked on the Linux platform which I think have a lot to do with big production companies like Pixar Animations (not saying specifically that they use Linux.) However, I have read somewhere that these applications are being used on the Linux platform because as you know these films requires large processing farm servers to computationally crank out the task of rendering images (lighting effects and so on.) Linux is great for batch farm processing. Therefore, I think there are some "flash" like applications for Linux that aren't available mainstream because these projects are very specific, intense, and focused and not completely developed. Sort of like a lot of the projects I have on my machine. I can use them, they work fine for me, and that is all I need.

I think it ought to be ported over to Linux. I also agree that the scripting lanauage may be somewhat poorly done, but regardless it produces great motion graphics. Alot of proprietary software companies just do not want to engage with open source products because they probably feel like Linux users don't think you should have to pay for anything thus freely distributing their product even though you can steal it for a Windows platform as many people do.

gearjunkie,

do a search on Linux animation and Movieclips and hopefully you will find an equivalent. I think Flash will be of a dying breed in the future though. I'm not sure if I like their object-oriented programming techniques. Try Povray.
EVAC

[saithan]

OK, here is the result of my tests using MoHo flash for Linux.
mind you these are not made to be impressive just a two minute test.

I attatched the screen shot.
here is a link to the resulting flash export:
first test (http://saithnet.dyndns.org/~webdirector/firsttest.swf)

the test was performed on the machine listed in my signature running redhat9.

moho is activly developing the linux version so for the full version at $99 might be worth it.
Not sure about the flash scripting abilities yet.

[JamminJoeyB]

The problem isn't with rendering animation apps like Pixar and the film industry uses. Blender is a free app that will handle 3d rendering with no problem. MAYA which is a comercial 3d rendering product has a linux port.

I don't have a problem with paying for software. Just because it runs on Linux doesn't mean it has to open source and GPL'd.

I for one think that if Flash was ported to Linux it would change the face of computing for ever.

Everyone talks about the killer app. Well a Linux port of Macromedia's Flash could be the killer app that would move more people into the Linux arena.

Just look at the economics of the situation.

Build your own workstation. $750
Linux as OS. $50-70 for boxed distro
FlashMX. $450 (per macromedia website)

This is roughly the total price of a new PC with windows and maybe office on it.

I for one would have no problem for paying for flash. I have done it in the past and have not found another way of doing things as easily as Flash lets me do them.

Flame me if you will. It's just MHO.

[evac-q8r]

It may very well change the face of computing, but will it or can it even happen? It will be more later than sooner. To me macromedia and other independent software companies are standing on thin ice with you know who...Microsoft. Microsoft is so powerful that if certain companies decide to port their software over to Linux, they will stop supporting them. For Macromedia, this means their business is destroyed. Macromedia is what they are now solely because of the MS operating system. They are almost completely obligated to abide according to certain ethics or they can easily be demolished. In other words, it would be really crappy for a software company to gain its reputation thanks to Microsoft and then once established go support a competing OS such as Linux. That's like backstabbing and we probably shouldn't expect it to be ported. So definitely, if many users can find their particular applications ported to Linux you can definitely expect a shift in momentum.

EVAC

[Crusier]

I myself would like to see svg replace flash in the future. Svg is an open xml based standard that does mostly the same thing as flash. It also has the ability to be easily modified and dynamically created on the server side. Check it out at w3c (http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Overview.htm8) , I think the world would be a better place if this ever catches on.

Crusier

[JamminJoeyB]

Cruiser, you have a point about SVG. However if you are creating web sites you have to consider the audience. Mostly IE. The flash player is bundled and loaded during the install of ie.

Your average joe surfer is not going to be waiting for the browser to go out and get a plugin to view a page. He wants the page now and that is that.

I need to do some more reading to see if this would be something that could be natively supported under the browser as that would bring it more to light with web site develpoers.

I like the idea of SVG as it sounds like it would decrease bandwidth.

______________
edit

looks like Opera browser is going the implematation route.

[Crusier]

Ahh, there lies the problem. Like you say no one is going to bother and fetch a plugin unless they have a good reason to do so. Now if every other site they came to asked to install a plugin, maybe that would be enough to convince people to install it. Kind of a chicken and the eqq ? though isn't it. I just try to encourage people to maybe take a look at it and hope that it gains enough support to change the way we do things.

B.T.W I belive the Mozilla project has some beta support for svg.

Crusier

[sarah31]

Originally posted by evac-q8r
Sarah31,

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "poorly coded" and therefore it must be "backwards engineered". No it is not open source, that is the application, so all that means is you would need to construct your own gui interface along with libraries to create animation. But all it allows you to do is create a frame-by-frame way of displaying things on the screen. Whether or not flash plugin is or could be made compatible with other animation programs is another question.There are animators and movie-clip generators that are currently being worked on the Linux platform which I think have a lot to do with big production companies like Pixar Animations (not saying specifically that they use Linux.) However, I have read somewhere that these applications are being used on the Linux platform because as you know these films requires large processing farm servers to computationally crank out the task of rendering images (lighting effects and so on.) Linux is great for batch farm processing. Therefore, I think there are some "flash" like applications for Linux that aren't available mainstream because these projects are very specific, intense, and focused and not completely developed. Sort of like a lot of the projects I have on my machine. I can use them, they work fine for me, and that is all I need.

I think it ought to be ported over to Linux. I also agree that the scripting lanauage may be somewhat poorly done, but regardless it produces great motion graphics. Alot of proprietary software companies just do not want to engage with open source products because they probably feel like Linux users don't think you should have to pay for anything thus freely distributing their product even though you can steal it for a Windows platform as many people do.
EVAC

well think of it this way...why does a blind or visually impared person need flash? why do i need to see some piece of junk animation for one second before i can enter a site that i go to not for the flash but for the information? why do i need motion in a webpage for it to be "good"? in other words whats the point of flash?

macromedia will not be releasing their multi million dollar code to the open source community for free so give up that idea. there fore it will have to be "backawards engineered" as we know what final product we need but how do we go about making it.

when i see a flash riddled page i expect that it has been slapped together with some POS wysiwyg html editor that ultimately will often create many errors in code. most browsers accomodate for it but if you have written good code or removed the bad code EVERY browser should work. not only that flash free and valid html (or whatever) will give impared individuals maximum bbenefit of the web. or don't you think that impared people should be allow to have problem free browsing.

if it and valid and it ain't flash free it should not be there IMHO.

[Atealtha]

ahh you people talk like flash is only animations

www.favouritewebsiteawards.com

they are much more than just a fancy intro, then a button that says "enter" to a normal html page. they bring a new world to interaction.

take a look at www.mjau-mjau.com one of my faves

[zdude255]

I frankly feel the same way about flash. There are tools to make movies in the same format, I believe the format (swf) is open actually.

I'm pretty sure someone will come along and create a better, open-source dev-tool for this. At that point people will develop on Linux, and Macromedia will lose millions of dollars to Linux, the same way Microsoft is.

Of course I may be a little ahead of myself.

Also check out Franks Corner:
http://www.frankscorner.org/wine/

I think I saw a section on Flash with wine.

[sarah31]

Originally posted by Atealtha
ahh you people talk like flash is only animations
take a look at www.mjau-mjau.com one of my faves

:eek: truly gawdawful:rolleyes:

[Atealtha]

I meant animation, as in animation. no interface or interaction

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by evac-q8r
It may very well change the face of computing, but will it or can it even happen? It will be more later than sooner. To me macromedia and other independent software companies are standing on thin ice with you know who...Microsoft. Microsoft is so powerful that if certain companies decide to port their software over to Linux, they will stop supporting them. For Macromedia, this means their business is destroyed. Macromedia is what they are now solely because of the MS operating system. They are almost completely obligated to abide according to certain ethics or they can easily be demolished. In other words, it would be really crappy for a software company to gain its reputation thanks to Microsoft and then once established go support a competing OS such as Linux. That's like backstabbing and we probably shouldn't expect it to be ported. So definitely, if many users can find their particular applications ported to Linux you can definitely expect a shift in momentum.

EVAC

What?? How do they owe anything to MS? They developed tools for the most popular OS, and were successful. They aren't successful because of MS, they're successful because they were smart enough to look at the stats and see who uses what and then write software for that platform. Developing tools for Linux isn't backstabbing, it's capitalism.

[gearjunkie]

Wow, I'm impressed. I thought this thread I started had been lost to the depths of the board, and here I come back to see it front page again....

Anyways, I thought I would put in my $0.02 with the whole thing.

I think this whole issue in my mind comes down to one word- "eyecandy". Quite frankly, I find it kind of amusing that a lot of times on this board you see this or that about how 'this window manager' over 'that window manager' and 'check out my screenshots' and "let's see windoze look like THIS"

yet, when somebody proposes the idea that they would like to try and express themselves to the world with a little pizazz it gets blown down with stuff like
truly gawdawful
and such.

Well, you know, I'll be the first to admit I'm not a programmer. I am a double major in Mechanical Engineering and Materials Engineering, and I took computer science I, and that's it. But, I sat down for a summer and learned PHP and HTML because I wanted to make a cool webpage. My end result is at www.3dmobility.com (if anyone's interested). It's nothing flashy, but it works, and I coded it all by hand after learning php in about a month. (yes even the message board and the picture post, not much, but an accomplishment for somebody like myself).

Well, I've decided that I would like to try something new. Something a bit more flashy, something that moves a little more. I have a total respect for sites that are plain and to the point . However, I also would like to personalize it a bit more, and make it have a bit more eyecandy. So, I started learning flash, and I think that other people have made that their next step as well.

So, here's my point. Everyone is entitled to their right to expression. I enjoy eyecandy. I know some people would rather run something like sawfish or blackbox as a window manager, with a minimalist layout. But me, I'm looking at a screen with enlightenment on it and a bunch of different skinned applications going on. To each his own! One of the great things about Linux, and one of the reasons I use it when I can, is that choice is there. So, why chastise people because they want to use flash? I think that there are some great HTML sites out there, and I think there are some really crappy HTML sites out there (I don't know which mine is under yet....). But, the same is true with flash, and if somebody wants to express themselves using flash, so be it. Just because somebody makes a website, doesn't mean you have to look at it. However, I enjoy seeing how creative people can get with their sites, and there's some CRAZY stuff out there. Why limit how you can do that?

I think I got a bit off the topic here, but I have to say that it disappoints me to see people bashing a site just because it's flash. It's like saying "Enlightenment, what an UGLY window manager" when there's about 10 million different ways you can use it.

Maybe if some linux developers got onto this flash thing, then flash could be used in ways we never thought possible?

oh yeah, and here's a couple funny movies with some people who you may have heard of trying to express themselves.....

IBM flash fun (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/linux/fun/?t=gr,p=LinuxAnimation#) (I like the evolution one)

-nathan

p.s. I'll check out the svg stuff, didn't even know it existed.

[sarah31]

well i wasn't shooting anyone down what i was trying to impress that ultimately most peopl are on the web for information. and most people just want to get it simply and quickly. flash slows things down alot. for some people that are not very confident on computer might even be intimidated by it. most of all

FLASH DOES NOT ALLOW FOR SOME IMPARED PEOPLE TO GET HE MOST OUT OF YOUR SITE.

i can't stress this enough.

i am all for you doing what you want but please do not assume that i am some minimalist i am not. true i don't use DE's because they have a lot of what i don't need. true too i prefer console apps. but this is beside the point i like to champion the cause to have all impared folks who use the internet to get from it what a non impared person can and flash very often prevents this. if this makes me a hard *** so be it.

[evac-q8r]

Nope. Not only are people on the internet for information they are on for entertainment purposes. I think your perspective that flash greatly hinders ones internet experience is just not right. To me it has added an unprecedented dimension in internet experience especially the creative aspect. Trust me, people who incorporate flash on their sites only do so to enhance your experience. They spend alot of time and money to give you a crisp, clear, dynamic visual.

It is not "flash" which greatly hinders ones experience if it does. It is the creativity and the non-routine nature which can be overwhelming particularly when trying to figure out how it all the buttons and scrolls work. There are great flash sites which aren't so difficult to use on the other hand. Maybe, I don't understand what you mean by impaired. And if I do understand what you mean by impaired, then I believe that many more impaired or handicapped or whatever people are getting an absolutely satisfying experience from flash than what you may be willing to believe.

Sincerest regards,

EVAC

[wokoglopulator]

Originally posted by evac-q8r
[B
And if I do understand what you mean by impaired, then I believe that many more impaired or handicapped or whatever people are getting an absolutely satisfying experience from flash than what you may be willing to believe.
[/B]

<IMHO>Bad or absent design planning is the root of bad webpages. I work in a library and can tell you that Flash animations are valueless to a visually impaired person. However, a thoughtfully designed site will have a text-based option for the visually impaired user (or just a user like me who would rather get to the meat and potatoes without animations and avoid the "flashy" stuff.).

Not all pages need to be accessible, but designers need to at least consider accessibilty. Try using a screen reader on web sites and you'll quickly get the idea. </IMHO>

[ricstr]

http://www.openswf.org/ - Get coding.

[ricstr]

http://www.swishzone.com/ - Cheaper alternitive to macromedia, runs better in wine.

[steventux]

MM Flash 6 will run quite nicely with WINE.

[Rule]

I was just pondering if nvu (http://www.nvu.com) is like FrontPage or Flash or even a 2 in 1:confused: