Stop using URGENT! and HELP!!!, please...

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

I know that many newbies on this site are very eager to start running Linux, but I feel like I need to burst a bubble or two.

First off, just because you can't get program foo to work, or your monitor's refresh rate isn't as optimal as you'd like, this doesn't neccesarily constitute an "URGENT!" problem.

Second, since this board is here to help people learn Linux and other *NIX'en, I feel it's pretty pointless to have the word "HELP!!!" in the title of your post. If you're posting on here, it's more likely than not that you're posting because you need help with something. Personally, I know seeing "HELP!!!" on a topic doesn't neccesarily make me respond any quicker. In fact, it looks down-right whiney.

And third. since I've kind of gotten on a rant, is there any way the Moderators/Black Belts on the board can emphasize use of the search function on this board? With the considerable history of this board, most questions I've seen here have been discussed over and over times before. And further, what's the point of putting, "I'm sure this has been asked before, but..." in your post? If you're sure it's been asked, WHY NOT USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION?

Okay... I'm cooling off now. I like answering questions on this board, but it just seems like many of the people asking questions on this board have no concept of RTMFP (Read The Manual First, Please) or even simply searching for an answer before asking their question. More often than not, somebody else ends up doing the "leg work" for someone who could have found the answer just as easily...

And again, forgive me if this sounded too mean!

[endoalpha]

I agree with Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379 100%. Everyone who posts here should first read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

[hop-frog]

I do not mind so long as the poster is new to the forum. The sooner we can help newbies the better. First impressions. If they don't get the help early on they might give up or go some place for help.

For newbies JustLinux search and Linux Google search are inadequate. Early on I was asked many times to run a Google search to find the solution. The trouble is I did not know enough to know what to search for!

I think this message board should have an archive. Other boards I've been to have archives including the best threads from commonly asked questions as well as an assortment of the more humorous threads.

[bwkaz]

This kind of stuff is already in the "Sticky: Community Help Posting Guidelines" thread that's stuck at the top of every help forum.

It seems, though, that some people just don't read it.

Then again, it doesn't specifically say "don't put URGENT in the subject line", though, so ... hmm.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by bwkaz
This kind of stuff is already in the "Sticky: Community Help Posting Guidelines" thread that's stuck at the top of every help forum.

It seems, though, that some people just don't read it.

Then again, it doesn't specifically say "don't put URGENT in the subject line", though, so ... hmm.

I, for one, was well aware of the fact that this stuff was in there, but I'm thinking people, especially new people, probably read the guidelines about as often as the EULA for a software installer. Maybe I should suggest in the "justlinux suggestion" forum the addition of discouraging use of "URGENT", "ARRRRGH!", or "HELP!!!"...

But I did notice one thing. On the Technical Support Forum, the text underneath the topic says a lot of what I was bellyaching about. Is there any way that the text under the topic can be enlarged? On my monitor, running 1024x768, it's barely readable down there...

And also, to hop_frog: How is Google for Linux or the Forum search inadequate? I promise you that if even half of the new users to this site used one of these two tools, they'd probably get their question answered without even having to post. Need I point to the tons of "How do I mount NTFS in RedHat?" threads that have been opened here? Heck, just doing a search for mdwatts would bring up a post with his signature, which has a direct link to RedHat NTFS modules.

I didn't mind seeing "HELP!!!" at first, but I'm seeing it sometimes twice daily in the forums I frequent.

[RWiggum]

Originally posted by endoalpha
I agree with Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379 100%. Everyone who posts here should first read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Another good one - http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html, which explains that being a hacker has nothing to do with a CS degree, or a Unix sysadmin job. It's more about an attitude - see problems as an opportunity to learn, not an insurmountable obstacle. It's also about perseverance - you just have to start getting your hands dirty and solve some of your own problems.

I came across a lot of ESR's writing early on in my Linux journeys. His advice will take you far.

[Icarus]

Wasn't the policy with for threads with a really bad title was to lock them?

I think mdwatts started that...I'll be back, time to lock a few threads ;)

[evac-q8r]

As much as I agree with you there probably is not a whole lot you can do to rectify the problem. Many times our anger and dissappointment is a function of our growing knowledge and understanding so we become slightly less tolerant and/or patient. I mean people with years or even just a couple months experience of Linux has a better idea of where to reference the answers to their questions. How to even intepret what information the man pages are trying to convey. I still don't understand many options that are available unless those options are absolutely necessary or I was experimenting with some things and I miraculously came across the option that I needed.

To these people, their problems actually are urgent, but what they fail to understand as compared to people with at least a mediocre understanding of Linux is that sometimes you need to have patience when trying to install some applications. Sometimes it takes me on the order of weeks just to get some dual boots to work properly or to tweek my system just the way I like. Above all I am willing to read until I can figure it out for myself. Or, maybe Linux really isn't for everyone. :rolleyes:

EVAC

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

I understand where evac-q8r is coming from. The only reason why I started this thread is to let some of them know that the problems they're encountering really aren't urgent, though.

I mean, how is it going to kill them if they can't get a scroll mouse working? Will their house catch on fire if they can't burn a CD at 48x instead of 24x? Is someone holding a gun to their head and saying "TAKE THAT TIMEOUT OFF OF LILO'S BOOT MENU!!!"? I really doubt it. It's just really annoying to see someone crying "HELP" or "URGENT" over a relatively piddly operation. Now, if someone was saying URGENT because someone wiped out their company's database, I'd say that were justified, because that's a serious problem that would require an urgent response.

[Kaligraphic]

How about having another forum for common questions? A given question would only be put there once, and it would be easy for newbies to just read that forum. Of course, it would have to be locked so that people couldn't fill it up with redundant stuff, but it would also give an obvious starting place to just read about stuff.

Also, it might be a help to those of us who consider it a point of honor to search beyond reason for obscure bits of data before even admitting we're looking.

[DMR]

Originally posted by Kaligraphic
How about having another forum for common questions? A given question would only be put there once, and it would be easy for newbies to just read that forum.One of the problems with that is this:

While there definitely are a lot of redunant questions asked here, many of the questions might appear to be similar, but the solution to each of those questions can vary widely depending on the particular user's system configuration and usage.

Originally posted by Kaligraphic
Of course, it would have to be locked so that people couldn't fill it up with redundant stuffActually, with a board this large (51,000+ members) that would create an administrative nightmare for the moderators and site administrators. We probably could create a "locked" forum (that is, one in which member input is prohibited), but that would demand that we review each newly submitted post and compare it to previous posts in the forum to determine whether it merits inclusion. Considering that we (the mods, at least) volunteer our time and effort here, I doubt that any of us would agree to take on that amount of extra workload.

Not to say that your idea isn't a good one; it is- I just don't see how we could implement it here without a lot of extra effort. However, if you have any creative suggestions or solutions, you might want to post them in the Forum Suggestions channel and see what sort of feedback you get from the admins.

:)

[Parcival]

I think one problem is that we don't exactly know how many newbies are reading the posting gidelines before they post for help.

As you can see by my number of posts, I am a newbie, I read the guidelines, and I'm sure others do that, too.

Consider this: I have Linux on my box for a month now and I still haven't my Palm m130 talking to it. I did a search on the forum and I'm trying now the various possibilities discussed to make it work. What I'm trying to say is this: "quiet" users with strategies like mine are the ones who don't get noticed, while it is the few newbies with the "HELP! I can't get it to work!" posts that stick out of the mass.

Does that make sense?

[hop-frog]

Originally posted by Parcival
I think one problem is that we don't exactly know how many newbies are reading the posting gidelines before they post for help.
Actually we do know that they are not being read enough:

Technical: 1018 views
Hardware: 145
Software: 173
Window/Desktop Managers: 82

I saw one thread that had more than 180,000 views!

[DMR]

hop-frog,

You definitely have a point, and I know firsthand that many members have never read the posting guidelines, let alone the AUP (http://www.internet.com/corporate/privacy/aup.html). However, there isn't a lot we can do about that without implementing some sort of new member sign-up procedure which involves reading the guidelines and AUP and having them click an "I accept/I do not accept" type of option before they can post.

Even if we did that, a lot of people would probably just choose the "accept" option without actually reading, just as they do with EULAs.

:(

[mdwatts]

Originally posted by mahdi
Wasn't the policy with for threads with a really bad title was to lock them?

I think mdwatts started that...I'll be back, time to lock a few threads ;)

I'm a little late in replying...

My policy if the subject does not relate to the actual question being posted (i.e. HELP !! or Help Me !! etc.).

1. If the thread has received one or more responses, lock the thread.

2. If the thread has not received a single response, delete the entire thread.

I usually send a PM to the originator explaining what has been done, the reason and to read the JL Posting Guidelines.

[hackman]

Alex,

You are indeed the biggest baby I think I've ever encountered in a forum. Maybe you have too much knowledge for your own good. Maybe it is time to find some other challenges to deal with now that you are a big Linux guru - such as getting a life and stop crying.

A quick search under your name on Google reveals you weren't so knowledgable about a year ago and infact you inquired for help once to get you little laser mouse to work. It must have been a humbling time posting a question like that... Did your reply come with something like "I mean, how is it going to kill them if they can't get a scroll mouse working?"

Instead of being helpful and directing people to solutions, you would rather sit here, and belittle people by directing them to the Google Search engire for advice. Well I'm sorry my friend, I did quite a bit of reasearch to discover a solution with no avail therefore I decided to come here for an answer. What I received were a series of insults... namely from you.

What this post has demonstrated to me that this is not the forum for a novice - those newbies seeking advice here - be warned of how you post your question or what you may ask because the justlinux Gods will be happy to show you what you really don't know.

Whatever people...

hackman

[Modorf]

Help, this is really urgent, my monitor is actually working the way I want it too; along with program FOO.

Hehehe, just having some fun while at work.
Nathan.

[Modorf]

Originally posted by RWiggum
Another good one - http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html, which explains that being a hacker has nothing to do with a CS degree, or a Unix sysadmin job.

Stop bashing my life style and degree. hehe
Have my BS in CS and a Network Tech by day.

Nathan.

[sharth]

Originally posted by hackman
Alex,

You are indeed the biggest baby I think I've ever encountered in a forum. Maybe you have too much knowledge for your own good. Maybe it is time to find some other challenges to deal with now that you are a big Linux guru - such as getting a life and stop crying.

A quick search under your name on Google reveals you weren't so knowledgable about a year ago and infact you inquired for help once to get you little laser mouse to work. It must have been a humbling time posting a question like that... Did your reply come with something like "I mean, how is it going to kill them if they can't get a scroll mouse working?"

Instead of being helpful and directing people to solutions, you would rather sit here, and belittle people by directing them to the Google Search engire for advice. Well I'm sorry my friend, I did quite a bit of reasearch to discover a solution with no avail therefore I decided to come here for an answer. What I received were a series of insults... namely from you.

What this post has demonstrated to me that this is not the forum for a novice - those newbies seeking advice here - be warned of how you post your question or what you may ask because the justlinux Gods will be happy to show you what you really don't know.

Whatever people...

hackman uhmm... I dunno what post this is in reply to, I didn't go search about, but heres my 2 cents. What alec was referring to was to ask people to respect the posting guidelines in that the subject of the thread be something meaningfull. thats all. I saw nothing against newbies in general. Heck, go look on irc, I'm still a noob. We are all not good at something.

I'm all for the pointfull subjects. I'm agreeing with mdwatts method of resolving them as well. Either that or allow the people to change the subject (currently i think that its impossible). uhm... yeah :). enjoy people. and whatever you do, read it with a kind heart, and then think about how you reply. Don't just do a random response (although I do every now and then), but think about what you are writing. mm k. thanks :cool:

[DMR]

hackman,

Since you seem to take a vested interest in the way some members (including myself) conduct themselves here, I suggest that you keep the following in mind:

-You are a new member here, with a total of 4 posts.

- Of those 4 posts, two of those are cross/double postings of the same question.

-The remaining two posts consist of degrading comments aimed at other members.

Also, since you seem to have a low opinion of members who "would rather sit here, and belittle people", I invite you to revisit this thread (http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104463).
Somehow, I think a few of our other members might find it slightly illuminating as well ;)

[Hayl]

Originally posted by hackman
Instead of being helpful and directing people to solutions, you would rather sit here, and belittle people by directing them to the Google Search engire for advice. Well I'm sorry my friend, I did quite a bit of reasearch to discover a solution with no avail therefore I decided to come here for an answer. What I received were a series of insults... namely from you.

What this post has demonstrated to me that this is not the forum for a novice - those newbies seeking advice here - be warned of how you post your question or what you may ask because the justlinux Gods will be happy to show you what you really don't know.

Whatever people...

hackman

actually, if people read and follow the posting guidelines, it makes everyone's life much easier. cluttering the database with subjects of "HELLLLP", etc. makes the database far less searchable.

it is far nicer to look down a list of posts and see a meaningfule sybject such as ALSA errors in Red Hat, or Nvidia GLX errors in Mandrake, etc. than to see subjects that mean nothing. it is far easier for people who may know the answer to quickly find a post if the subject has meaning.

also, regarding advising people to search or pointing them to search results, if you have ever done any type of tech support, you would realize that educating the users is by far the best way to reduce tech support calls. it is simply helping people to help themselves.

perhaps you should follow the advice the mods gave you in http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104463

or, if you don't like it here, then i suggest that you just leave.

[DMR]

Originally posted by sharth
Either that or allow the people to change the subject (currently i think that its impossible).You can do it- the thread title displayed in the list of threads in a given forum is sucked from the title of the first post. If the person who started the thread clicks on the "edit" button at the bottom right-hand side of the first post and changes the subject line from there, that change will be reflected in the displayed thread title.

[hop-frog]

I know what we could all do to prevent this problem. We should start posting like I've seen on USENET.

We should start labeling our threads like this:

[KDE] The kicker disapeared

That way when a newbie comes here they will see that everyone is using a [PREFIX] and they will do the same. Even if a newbie posted something like this,

[KDE] Newby! NEED HeLp!

at least we would know that it was a question about KDE and people who don't know a lot about KDE won't have to click on it. Obviously there would be some people putting the wrong prefixes in, but I think that the number that would do it right would certainly outway those few.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by hop-frog
I know what we could all do to prevent this problem. We should start posting like I've seen on USENET.

We should start labeling our threads like this:

[KDE] The kicker disapeared

That way when a newbie comes here they will see that everyone is using a [PREFIX] and they will do the same. Even if a newbie posted something like this,

[KDE] Newby! NEED HeLp!

at least we would know that it was a question about KDE and people who don't know a lot about KDE won't have to click on it. Obviously there would be some people putting the wrong prefixes in, but I think that the number that would do it right would certainly outway those few.

That's a great idea, but I'd almost be afraid that people would start putting [HELP!] in the topics of their threads.

So long as people post their questions in the right forum, and they have a decently relevant title for the thread, things should be snazzy, with or without the [KDE] (or appropriate) tag on it.

That's not to say those tags, if used properly, wouldn't help, though...

[irlandes]

I have been participating here for several years. Often, when I have had a question, I have first tried search. A lot of times, and I mean like half or more, search simply does not work. I have no idea why, just that after a long wait, I get some sort of error message instead of the list of hits.

And, yes, I reported it. Several times.

So, I almost never use Search on this URL. Fortunately, I am not a newbie any more, so I do use google, and have a tremendous amount of luck there. So much luck that as a user with some experience, (though with the common holes in my knowledge range) I seldom ask questions here.

The only major question I have had in a long time was the one about permissions which reset themselves after I set them with su. Still have no answer to that question, though there were many obvious ways to fix the problem, but permissions still reset themselves, and I am not clear why that should be so.

[DMR]

Originally posted by irlandes
A lot of times, and I mean like half or more, search simply does not work. I have no idea why, just that after a long wait, I get some sort of error message instead of the list of hits.I'm pretty sure that was more a function of the UBB software that powered this board until recently; now that we've switched to vBulletin I personally haven't seen the problem recur.

[hop-frog]

The search works fast enough for me. Yeah, it used to be incredibly slow. For me at least, the trouble with search is often not knowing what to search for. If you don't know what everything is called that you are refering to in your question, it can be rather difficult.

[automatic]

Maybe this forum need an organized f.a.q page examples:

I spend more than 2 weeks to know that my CDRW disk needed to be reformat in Linux and use TAO (track at once) burning method.

I learn about XINE when I tried Mandrake, XINE not available in RedHat. But at first I though Linux can't play VCD.

I still do not know how to make my USB Optical Mouse works in Debian, so I install Knoppix.

I do not know about dhcpd.conf until someone out there point it out for me, and still asked him what is inside and how to edit it because at that time it was urgent I need to make Internet sharing running at my office (server redhat 7.2).

There are so many thing that I do not know yet, and I do not have time to figure it out -or- read the manual -or- searching in so many forum and webpage (sometimes I also do not know what to search).

And for newbie like me simple answer usually don't work, need to be explain in detail -what-where-why-etc-etc-

So what we really need is an Organized f.a.q page where problem are categorized systematically.

Example:
Hardware Problem
Input
-Keyboard
-Usb
-Ps2
-Mouse
-PS2
-Serial
-USB
Harddrive
-IDE
-scsi
-external USB

and next time newbie like me asking silly question (we do not even know it was silly) people in this forum can lead us to f.a.q page (which section, which part) and if that newbie back and ask more question ... then we know that the 'organized f.a.q' page is not fully organized yet :-)

whoa ... long posting hope can help us all learning more efficiently

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

automatic has a good point.

The only thing is, the amount of time and effort it would take to make such an FAQ is quite great. Not only that, but most of the information that we'd be putting in such an FAQ is already out there, waiting to be Google'd for.

Also, here's my opinion. If you don't have the time to do the research, and you don't have the time to read the manual, then you shouldn't be bothering trying to set up that solution, at least, not until you have the time to read the documentation. That'd be like me handing you a gun:

Me: Here's the gun, and here's the manual. Be sure to read page 27-- it tells you about how to engage the safety lever.

You: CRAP! I don't have the time to read that! I need to shoot something!

15 minutes later...

BANG!

You: OH MY EYE!!! WHY DID THIS THING GO OFF???!?!?!

Me: You didn't engage the safety lever. Now, pick up your eye and get in the car. We're going to the emergency room...

I mean, it might not be that bad, but I would make DARN sure I knew what something was going to do if I was going to use it in a work/business setting.

[automatic]

=) I like that ‘Now, pick up your eye and get in the car. We're going to the emergency room...’ line …

What I mean is not we took time to reinvent the wheel, but to make a simple documentation about inventing building and mass producing the wheel, and make sure that every breakthrough of how to make the wheel in fast and easier way are noted and broadcast to other member.

There are many posting here, some are just angry people, some thankful people, some frustrated, some happy, some are good, some bad, some problem are very common and good answer about it are posted.

What we need is to identify this ‘some problem are very common and good answer about it are posted’ categorized it and add it to the ‘organized f.a.q’ and make sure other people will have easy access to it. And don’t have to search it from out side the planet justlinux again.

Yeah … I should take time to read the manual. I need to learn how to: asking the right question - finding the right answer – and figure out what the problem really are … or the other way around? Oh no … I need HELP now

:-) Just kidding ...

Personally I thankful for this forum and for all the people in it, I need 10 year to understand Windows (from 3.1 to XP). But because of this forum I’ll need less time to understand more powerful OS that is LINUX.

[bs_texas]

My $ .02

Wouldn't the thread be read more often if, instead of:

Sticky: Community Help Posting Guidelines

it was:

Sticky: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING

Or, how about forcing the new registrees to read the thread as a part of the registration process and then have a test on the points in the thread before allowing them to post. I know when I first registered I didn't notice the sticky as it is.

Seems simple enough to me, the READ THIS part, that is. Of course, I'm not the one who has to do the extra little bit of work to implement it.

regards...

Edit:
And it is amusing that the thread:
---Dudes...im screwed! DONT KNOW NOTHING!
has 112 replies.

Edit2:
And, the thread
---Stop using URGENT! and HELP!!!, please...
will eventually fall off the bottom of the forum and the very next person that deletes windows and then installs linux and finds that it isn't simple is gonna find a way to get on here and post:
---I deleted Windows, now I can't get it up!!! Help!!!

It's a viscious cycle as it stands now.

Edit3:
Hey! I posted this (http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=95980&highlight=read+and+this+and+before+and+posting) back in April also, with no response.

[hop-frog]

There are plenty of existing threads that will answer commonly asked threads. Unfortunatly these have become buried in a sea of many. Who here is actually remembers the 5-digit Thread ID# of a good post so that we can refer it to someone?

It has been mentioned before: we need an Archive. Many other forums that I have visited do this very thing:

Gather up the best threads to commonly asked questions and put it in a well indexed, read-only area. People can either look through there for the answer or people who are more firmiliar with the archive will be able to give them a direct link to that thread. It would not take a lot of work to put this Archive together because you don't have to do it all at once. People could submit their nominations for a thread that should be included.

[DMR]

automatic,

Your idea is definitely a good one, and to some extent that's what we try to offer in our library section (http://justlinux.com/nhf/). However, addressing the astronomical number of specific issues that might crop up within any of the given category you suggested (and keeping those issues updated) would be a nightmare for anyone who wanted to contribute to that effort here. It would also, for the most part, only be a massive "reinventing of the wheel", as much of the information we would be trying to centralize here is already very well documented on other sites. This is the exact reason why some of our members suggest that you "Google first, ask second".

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

/me feels this post is somewhat topical at the moment. Heck, IMHO, it's topical all the time!

:D

BUMP

[DMR]

Grave digging again, Alex? They have little blue pills that can cure you of that you know...

:D

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

heh... :p

I feel this grave digging jaunt was in order, though... Just to get it back on people's minds.

Besides, I used to work in a cemetary. I've got some experience digging graves... MUAHAHAHAHA! :D

[kitteneque]

You know, it's threads like this that had me too scared to post. I ran Linux for a problem for 2 weeks before I had enough courage to post because I was afraid all I'd get was RTFM. So I made SURE I did, and Googled my heart out. And still I missed what seems obvious now, a simple solution to my problem. But it was far from simple when I didn't have a CLUE what I was looking for.

A HUGE thanks to mdwatts and those like him that never cease to at least post links for us who have run into a brick wall.....and are smart enough to SHOW we have.

I agree as a newbie I have a harder time searching through "newbie needs help!"...but I can understand their desperation. Maybe having an automatic redirect to the posting rule page unless someone signs in would help? Sign up and sign in and go to the regular home page, or have the rules in your face if you don't sign in? (Plus a link at the bottom to get INTO the forums etc....) Then if they post "Help" you know there is no excuse? I knw some people may not want to log in all the time...but hey... No solution will be perfect.

Just a thought...an idea....tear it apart, use it...whatever.. :-)

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

The thing about is that you showed the effort, kitteneque.

When you ask a question, and you've done a bit of searching, be sure to let us know what searching you've done. The only time most people give a RTFM or a STFW is because it might seem apparent that the person didn't do any preliminary searching.

If you don't know what to even search for, then be sure to let us know that, too. That's perfectly understandable, as some concepts can be pretty confusing.

My gripe in this post, though, was with people who either don't have a descriptive post title (like "Newbie needs help here!"), or they have a descriptive title, but insist on posting "HELP" in the title, like "Sound Blaster configuration -- HELP!!!".

Some people think it's cute, but I find it annoying. It just sounds like whining. Now that I have the power to, I just edit out the HELP! part if the title's still descriptive.