All newbies should read this: [Archive]

av1998

09-08-2001, 10:44 AM

Absolutely ! I agree 100% and more.

When I started the thread about polling Linux users for a Linux distro that is easy to install and easy to use ..... I get responses from people here who are not willing to share. All they wanna do is criticize and ridicule.

I am a high school teacher, and long time Windoze and MacOS user. The reasons Windoze and MacOS becomes such a household ritual includes the fact that they are easy to install and use. We teach them in school to use Windoze and MacOS with much patience and proper guidance. Linux is not being taught in school. So, you people over here are teachers of the next generation of computer users. Please take that role seriously and not slander when somebody asks a question. Help them out, educate them, lead them in the right direction, give them guidance. Eventually, once they can stand on their own feet ..... they will be more independent and more able to troubleshoot their own problems. Ladies/Gentlemen, these is the process of learning. Everybody goes through these phases gradually. Once you are proficient, don't become so arrogant that you have to insult new and young users. Thank you for reading.

Dark Ninja

09-08-2001, 01:32 PM

Hmmmmm...I agree with Aragorn upp to a poinit. See, the thing is, there are those people out there who are so damn lazy that they never even ATTEMPT to do the work or even try to find something out for themselves. Granted, there are some questionos where the answers don't exist anywhere on the web, and there are times, even when a person does their own work, that the help document they have found does not provide the support for their system, but...

The reason that the "Linux Community" wants people to search for the answers on their own, because it makes them stronger because they have to learn for themselves. What the Linux Community SHOULD do is teach people how to find this information. It would kind of follow that saying, "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for the rest of his life."

We should teach people how to find information on the web. Too many people do not know how to properly implement search engine techniques.

Anyway, that's my input on that.

Dark Ninja

Strike

09-08-2001, 01:54 PM

*sigh*

This was not an ultimatum nor a new board requirement or anything, I hope you'll notice that. Besides, my opinion is not the opinion of anyone else but me and I never try to present it as otherwise. So, no venting at internet.com on this one as I am not an employee of theirs and as such most definitely not a representative of theirs.

I'm not threatening to moderate posts of people who obviously haven't read this, and I'm not threatening not to help people who obviously haven't read this. I did this to HELP people help themselves. Asking something like "Why won't my video work!?" is about 20 times less likely to get a response than something like "Why can't I get my GeForce2 with the 1.0-1251 drivers on Mandrake 8 with XFree86 4.1 to run OpenGL applications?"

There are a LOT of posts here, and the more poorly-worded and poorly-prepared ones (or ones that do one or more of the no-no's in this document, such as all caps or using abbreviated speech) WILL get looked over more often because there is an "easy question" right next to it.

carlywarly

09-08-2001, 02:23 PM

Mmmmmmmm.....GLO looks very interesting.

cabu1966

09-08-2001, 02:43 PM

Sometimes people come on here and ask a question because they don't even know that there is a FM to read. You can usually tell because the have just a few posts, and they ask a question that has a simple to find answer. To those...give 'em a push in the right direction but add the caveat that in the future they really should do some research on the board, on google, and the man pages. If they keep coming back and asking simple unresearched questions then maybe you pack on your flame retardant suit and let go :D .

My personal experience has been great here, I don't believe I have ever been flamed (hmm....maybe I'm missing out on something). But then again, I haven't asked that many questions. I have been here for a good while, but I usually find my answers on the forum search, or at least something that points me to a config file etc...I give a good bit of the credit to LNO for getting me to this point in linux. I'm even posting this from an LFS system, well beyond the point of the base system. But I guarantee you it was not from reading RTFM or ditch redhat, corel (insert other distributions here). It was from reading posts where someone said "well that can easily be found if you look here" or "here is the answer, but next time look at google...."

Gnu/Vince

09-08-2001, 02:49 PM

<STUPID>
Is this a Linux board?
</STUPID>

<SMART>
If I look at the URL of this website, the name of the board, the subjects in the various forums, I think I can conclude this is a Linux board. Am I right?
</SMART>

evulish

09-08-2001, 05:46 PM

Heh...it's like calling someone on the phone and says 'My car is broken, can you tell me how to fix it?'.

Aragorn

09-08-2001, 05:47 PM

Strike,

I apologize, I meant no attack on you. You have helped me immensely through many of my problems and so has LNO. I don't take away from that at all and LNO I still visit(obvious I guess) even though I don't any other internet.com sites. I understand this isn't a rule or anything of LNO, but in many instances it is an unwritten rule. I agree that a blind question will many times not even be answered here, that I disagree with, and I agree with DarkNinja and Cabu1966 in that you should add a nudge to maybe look at certain how-to's and things like that. We have to realize though that there are people out there who don't want to figure it out for themselves and either don't have the knowledge, time, or desire to know how to do it for themselves. We can't kick these people from the curb and say "You can't use Linux" otherwise Linux will never be a desktop OS. We have to accept and embrace these people as well because as much as I hate to say it, they are the majority. Users who are willing to go through the manual and scour the internet for answers are more computer savvy and want to do it themselves. We have to accept that there will be Windows users who used windows because they didn't have to do anything but reboot every 15 minutes and everything else worked, if not they could call and get a step by step and it would work again. For instance, LA Times and I are working on a article to promote Linux as an alternative os, his first question to me was "I don't want to know how my computer works, I don't want to read book after book to figure out how to get things to work, I am just a writer not a techie." Well this is an influential tech writer, and he is of this nature, what can we expect of our everday converts from Windows?

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

Aragorn

09-08-2001, 05:50 PM

Evilush,

Ever been a tech support guy for a windows based proggy or the os itself, or if you have ever worked at a mechanical shop you hear "My car makes blur blur blur noise, what is that?" This happens more than "My engine has blown a gasket" people aren't that knowledgable about cars nor do they want to be, and if Linux is going to make it, the users aren't going to be that knowledgable about Linux nor will they want to be. We have to embrace these people to if we want the OS to be a common desktop OS.

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

TacKat

09-08-2001, 06:12 PM

You really can't expect the average person to be able to rattle off the specs of all his hardware, or even be able to determine what information is relavant to his problem, but a willingness to keep the ball rolling after a more knowledgable person has given it a push goes a long way.

ferrol

09-08-2001, 06:24 PM

What annoys people are the kind of posts where the same question is asked time and time again, even repeat on the same board just a couple of topics down!

As Strike says its just a guide, not a condition. A guide for people to become better at something. In this example searching and helping yourself.

Fair enough there are extremes where a person hasn't even tried and wants to be spoon fed, and then to be fair people who look down on newbies and say RTFM.

While these go on, normal people ask question (dumb or not) and normal people answer.

The document is to educate and help.

I guess there will always be a danger of this board becoming elitest, but members and moderators are sensible (most of the time :p)

Its just a question of where you stand.

For me I'll try and help out, if I can't I'll at leased try and point them in the right direction.

Aragorn

09-08-2001, 06:25 PM

I completely agree TacKat. They don't have the knowledge to do that, but a strive to make them more knowledgable is a noble idea. Some just don't want to be though, but they do want a stable OS.

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

av1998

09-08-2001, 07:51 PM

I really hope Aragorn's plea for courtesy and willingness to lend an unconditional helping hand goes through to the majority of people on this board.

I have been on this board for much longer than most of you who are reading this thread(#878, 1999) and guess what ..... my primary system is still a Windoze system - Windows ME, my secondary system is still a Windoze system - Win2000, and my third machine(for my wife) is also a Windoze system - Win98. I have tried to convert quite a number of times, with help from Sensei back in the good 'ol days of LNO. I have also gotten some minor assistance occasionally from friends in the Toledo Area Linux Users Group.

Why haven't I ditched Windoze ? Reason #1: As much as I hope, Linux has not been cooperating well with my hardware, for whatever reason. I am not stupid by all means, I am a Master's degree holder in Engineering. I also teach programming and software at an elite high school. I have 2 systems built from scratch and a pre-built system bought from a major vendor.

Let me tell you all something, if Linux ever wishes to become mainstream. The OS will need to be more user-friendly, way more user-friendly, in fact ..... to the extent of being idiot-friendly ! :) That's all I have to say in that regards. However, if all Linux wants to do is to cater to the servers sector and techie demographics, well then ..... stay with the way it is right now ..... stop inproving and become arrogant.

Breetie

09-08-2001, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by av1998:
I really hope Aragorn's plea for courtesy and willingness to lend an unconditional helping hand goes through to the majority of people on this board.

Yes, it would be nice, and yes, I've actually asked some questions I could not, for the life of me, find myself. Well, one, actually. It was an issue regarding my Iomega Predator USB CDR-W, which the cdrecord website listed as a recognized drive, yet in another help file listed all USB writers/re-writers as not supported, so I didn't really know what that meant for me and my apparent inability to get the drive working with cdrecord.
I still have not received an answer, though I really couldn't say it's because no-one knows, or because they see it as a stupid question.
I don't regard myself as a 'newbie' to the PC arena--I've been a PC tech for near nine years, now, with experience in most systems from Macintosh to Sun's to DecAlpha's--but I am a Linux newbie, because I only recently came to understand most things about installing apps and such, and troubleshooting the various config files that lay scattered about in the system.
But I'm all for answering questions, even if they *ARE* stupid. I mean, there is something to be said for intelligent conversation, and it says something about a person who is more willing to do his own research and asks at least a half-intelligent question based on research they have uncovered, but there are also those who see that it would take less time and effort, simply to start a new thread and ask the same question to save energy.
Are they lazy, or just conservative?
I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder, as it were. But its important, that those of us who can refer to themselves as techies and gurus and hackers and gods can take some time from their pedestals and cloud cities and give those on the ground at least a good once-over.
There are reasons, however one-sided or unfair they may or may not be, that the Linux community is largely regarded with disdain. For those of my work-mates, they would rather tell me to bugger off than answer even quick questions about the O/S, even though they may know. So I don't ask them. I come here. Here, at least, LNO is willing to help. Here, even if I can't get the answer from one of you, I can pretty much search through the various articles and get my answer, or at least enough of one, to finish my question and through intelligent deduction figure out my own wares.
Now, I don't mean to sound unthankful. LNO has been invaluable--without it I would have been a whole lot more lost, than I am now. It's nice to have a place to come home to, as it were, because I use Linux (RedHat 7.1x) at home as my primary system, and I do everything I can from it, and I enjoy using it, enjoy its stability, ease of configuration, ability to take a crash from an app (which, honestly, hasn't happened yet since my move to RedHat from Mandrake), and the growth in the industry towards it.
I use Linux at work. It is a requirement of my job to know some rudiments in using linux to monitor the web-servers (4,000+) that we host.
But it is clear, at least at work, that my colleagues regard themselves as too far above me to even offer basic assistance. I'll ask them a question--and believe me, it won't be a stupid one--and they will sneer at me, and won't answer, or they point at a well-used, torn-up stack of papers on a cart in the office and say 'RTFM'.
Fine. I did. I sat down, and took my entire weekend, once, and read that thing, cover-to-cover, twice. Just to make sure I got everything. There were some questions it answered, but it created a whole lot more. I knew I couldn't go to them, to I went to the web...and I found LNO. A good thing, too, since my Linux knowledge would have been in serious jeopardy, had I not had this resource. So, on behalf of myself, and my job, thank you. Thank you very much.
Just remember, that there are those of us who don't learn as fast, or who can't read something and get as much out of it as if we were shown how at a PC. Just some patience with us, really...we're trying, and I do everything I can to help myself first, before bothering you guys. And I try to answer posts that I think maybe I have something to contribute to (like installing the latest nvidia drivers--I can tell you how to do that!). Just be patient with me, is all...and a little nudge, here and there, And that'll be just fine. And I promise not to ask a question I think maybe has been asked before, or that I might find elswhere if I'd just look.
So thanks...thanks, LNO.

Craig McPherson

09-08-2001, 11:52 PM

I think everyone should read the document that Strike linked to.

With each passing year, I get more and more annoyed with flat-out dumb people. I'm not talking about people with legitimate, intelligent questions that they've actually researched before asking. I'm talking about the kind who say, "I'm too lazy to do any work on my own, so I want you to do all my work for me, and perform oral sex on me once you're done!"

They're the high-tech equivalent of welfare mothers. They're motivated enough to know what they want, they're just not motivated enough to do even one minute of work for it, so they beg and pleed and leech off of the sympathy of others.

My "final solution" for newbies who ask dumb questions would be the same as my "final solution" for welfare mothers: shove them in a giant incinerator and then dump their ashes in the ocean. Sadly, society is opposed to putting stupid people in incinerators, so we just have to deal with them.

I don't even bother to flame the idiots anymore. Flaming them doesn't solve anything, because for every one you get rid of, there are always two more just around the corner.

Here's what I do: ignore the idiots. Insulting them just encourages them and gives them a feeling of entitlement. If they get zero replies to their question, none at all, then maybe they'll start to wonder "maybe I'm going about this the wrong way." Most other clued-end people tend to ignore the ignorant in the same manner: you'll find that most of the truly stupid questions here get no responses at all, which serves as a "cold shower" to the author of those questions that maybe they're on the wrong track.

I really hope Aragorn's plea for courtesy and willingness to lend an unconditional helping hand goes through to the majority of people on this board.

NO! "Unconditional helping hands" are an unconditional bad thing. If you give someone free welfare for the rest of his life, he'll never work. If you give someone free rides around town, he'll never learn to drive. If you do all someone's thinking for him, he'll never learn to think.

The reasons Windoze and MacOS becomes such a household ritual includes the fact that they are easy to install and use

Why don't you just use them, then?

Why can't there be one operating system on the planet for people who think? Why do you have to turn everything into a moron wankfest?

Linux is not being taught in school.

Good. The operating system wasn't designed for those people.

Please take that role seriously and not slander when somebody asks a question.

Strawman. I would never slander a person for asking a question. In the olden days, I might slander a person for asking a STUPID question, but now I just ignore them. They're not worth my time when there are intelligent human beings (who know how to think) that I could be helping instead.

You really can't expect the average person to be able to rattle off the specs of all his hardware

I do not want the "average person" using my operating system.

If you don't know what hardware is in your system, there's an OS for you and it's called Windows.

Let me tell you all something, if Linux ever wishes to become mainstream.

If you want a mainstream OS, use Windows. Don't ruin my OS by making it impotent and flaccid.

However, if all Linux wants to do is to cater to the servers sector and techie demographics

Now you're talking some sense. What's wrong with that?

well then ..... stay with the way it is right now

I'm doing my best.

stop improving... and become arrogant

Become arrogant? Sure, I can go along with that.

Stop improving? What the heck are you talking about? To you, "improving" means "becoming a clone of Windows that's grossly unusable" and I do not want that, nor do the people who develop the software.

What the "I want a Windows clone with a penguin logo" on the box don't understand is that the people who actually program the OS and write the software disagree with them. The people who want a Windows clone aren't able to code, and the people who can code don't want a Windows clone. So, you're never going to get your penguin-branded Windows clone no matter how much you moan and cry about elitism and the lack of Wizards.

Catering the lowest dregs of society is a waste of time. I'm not even going to address Aragorn's rant, but <a href="http://********linuxonline.com/cgi-bin/Discussion/YaBB.cgi?board=Rants&action=display&num=997736943">he describes himself quite well here</a>.

You've heard the expression "give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime." That's all I'm saying. If you have a problem with it, go stick it up your left ear.

To save people the trouble of having to reply to this:

1. Yes, I already know I'm an "elitist bastard."

2. Yes, I already know I have a "serious attitude problem."

3. No, I can not tell you how to get your mouse to work in X without even knowing what kind of mouse it is.

Aragorn

09-08-2001, 11:57 PM

This is exactly the type of attitude that will keep Linux where it is. Luckly this extreme of an attitude is rather limited within the community.

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

Roy Smith

09-09-2001, 12:14 AM

just a question, spurred purely by curiosity: does a site such as LNO want people to make many posts or few posts?
i know this is only loosely related to the conversations above, but since i'm not really sure how this or any other site survives, i thought i'd ask for some rudimentary explanation, beginning with the above question.

av1998

09-09-2001, 12:17 AM

Wow !! Mr. Craig McPherson ..... what a character ! I do not know how Sensei would feel knowing that 1 of his very first 518 members of LNO lives with that sort of mindset and carried that type of attitude onto the forums. Unbelievably disgusting !!!

Boricuamed

09-09-2001, 12:26 AM

Even though I might get flamed for this...here goes:

I am a Linux newbie. I am also a Physician. The most important lesson I have learned in life is this: The only "stupid" question is the one not asked.

That's my two cents... :)

Craig McPherson

09-09-2001, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Aragorn:
This is exactly the type of attitude that will keep Linux where it is.

Did you have trouble reading my post? That's what I want. I think you'll find that most serious users, developes, programmers, and administrators want the "Linux for everybody" fad (yes, it's just a fad) to die off. It already is dying off, by the way.

Isn't it kind of silly to tell me "your attitude will keep Linux where it is" when that's what I want to happen? You ain't hurting my feelings any.

Wow !! Mr. Craig McPherson ..... what a character ! I do not know how Sensei would feel knowing that 1 of his very first 518 members of LNO lives with that sort of mindset and carried that type of attitude onto the forums.

I've made my attitude perfectly clear from the very start. Time may have intensified it, but that's an inevitable consequence of dealing with crap for an extended period of time.

I liked this site because it was a place for thinkers to get help with a thinking man's (or woman's) operating system and talk to other thinkers, and to help other thinkers with their Linux issues. That's why it's called LinuxNewbie and not LinuxDummy.

If you don't want to think, why don't you just use a Penguin wallpaper in Windows 2000? That should provide you with everything you need.

Unbelievably disgusting !!!

Thank you for your opinion. Have a nice day.

I don't think we really disagree with each other on this issue, we're just looking at it from two different perspectives. I see the glass as half full, and you see the glass as half empty, as it were.

Aragorn

09-09-2001, 12:48 AM

Actually that wasn't in response to you Craig, I realize that you want to keep Linux where it is. The vast majority of us do not, and to say the fad is dying, you are seriously mistaken. I believe the push to have Linux on the desktop is growing stronger by the day, look at LinuxOrbit.com, their whole idea is to have Linux on the desktop. You have your own opinion and I have mine, I just wanted others to see that your attitude is exactly what I was talking about and had no intention of attacking you, you have your ideals and are set in your way, so kudos to you.

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

P.S. Just want to take a minute to thank you for the attempt to convince everyone I was an idiot. I am not attacking anyone here, nor am I trying to offend anyone, why you must resort to such manners is quite interesting.

Psycho

09-09-2001, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by av1998:
Wow !! Mr. Craig McPherson ..... what a character ! I do not know how Sensei would feel knowing that 1 of his very first 518 members of LNO lives with that sort of mindset and carried that type of attitude onto the forums. Unbelievably disgusting !!!

Sensei used to get a chuckle from Craig I think, although he has slid a little more to the elietist of late.

Craig, you off your medication again?
;)

Don't sweat it, I try and can usually find the answers. Some should realize you can often find the answer quicker than someone might reply...

The gurus can run lfs or whatever, the newbies and windoze converts can run a friendlier distro. It's flexible enough for everyone.

After one or two posts like my mouse don't work anyone with any smarts will figure the correct way to try and then ask for help.

Yes they should be gently pushed in the right direction, but there's usually no call for rudeness. If dumb questions bother someone they should ignore them.

just my $1.398

--glenn

two year :confused: newbie :confused:

;)

Craig McPherson

09-09-2001, 01:08 AM

I'm not opposed to Linux on the desktop.

Linux works just fine on my desktop.

I'm opposed to Linux on stupid people's desktop.

Linux on stupid people's desktops will never work, because stupid people can't code, and the people who can code don't write software for stupid people: they write software that they themselves can use.

The reason Free Software will never be useful for the intellectual commoners of the world is that the driving force behind the creation of Free Software is people creating software for themselves to use. There's no motivation to create Free Software that you yourself can't use, therefore Free Software developers will never write software for commoners, because software written for commoners isn't useful to people who can code.

The only reason that "for dummies" Linux software has made a rise over the past few years is because of commercial companies putting out bastardized, half-proprietary "for dummies" software that can only barely be classified as Free Software, if at all, by RMS's definition. ESR, yes. RMS, no.

True Free Software will always be "by programmers, for programmers (and similar)," because it's the programmers who create the software, and they will only create software they can use; they have no motivation to create software you can use

Pseudo-free companies like RedHat do have a motivation to cater to commoners: money. You add the money motivation, and people start writing software that's useless to them but useful to others. It's all motivated by profit, though.

Guess what? The profits just vanished. With the tech stock crash, every Linux company is within $2 of bankruptcy. The profit motivation is gone, so there's no reason for programmers to cater to you anymore.

You can say I'm wrong if you like. But in 5 years, there'll be no such thing as "Linux company"; they'll have all gone bankrupt. The commoners will still be using a commoner OS (hopefully not Windows, but let's face reality), and Free Software will have gone back to the original ideal of tech-saavy people creating software for themselves and each other. Over the past 12 months or so, it's started to happen, and you're powerless to stop it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do want to see Microsoft fail also. And badly. I'd like to see Windows replaced by some other OS as the commoner OS of choice. But Linux will not be it. Linux is not for commoners and never will be. Maybe Macintosh OS X will kill Windows. That's what I'm hoping for.

I don't have to convince you of anything, because you're going to fail anyway, and nothing you or I say is going to change that one iota.

Dave's not here

09-09-2001, 01:32 AM

IMHO the only problem with some of the posts here is the fact that people don't look through the posts before posting. If people would take the time to read a few posts before asking a question that has already been answered several times here it would eliminate a lot of the complaints people have. (I recall seeing the NVidia OpenGL support question a number of times in one day earlier this month.} Furthermore, even though this is slightly off topic, I think people should describe their problem the best they can in the title of the post instead of the generic "NEWBIE NEEDS HELP." Every newbie needs help. I really am reluctant to answer such posts because of the poor choice of title. Obviously I can't tell people this as they sign up, but eventually it would be nice for people here to gain some better etiquitte (sp?) in posting.

This board is the main reason that I am still using Linux and has helped me a tremendous amount, but there is always room for improvement.

Aragorn

09-09-2001, 02:33 AM

What is it that I will fail at? Everything I set out to achieve with GetLinuxOnline.Com I have already. I didn't set out to get rich, I am a realist, I understand that I am not going to get rich nor even turn a profit with my site. I set up GLO to help other newbies as myself and as many of the members here at LNO have done for me. I want to return the favor, I by no means say that LNO is a bad board, it has a few bad apples but all in all it is a good board. The userbase here is amazing and because of that, most people will get the help they need. I just want to help the few that fall through the cracks, and I have done that. If I can help one newbie who couldn't find the answer anywhere else and was going to give up and go back to windows, then I have done what I have set out to do, and I have done that already. So saying I will fail you have fallen short, to say I will lose money on the site, ok then your right, I already have, but that is of no concern, I want to help the Linux community that supported me.

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

Breetie

09-09-2001, 03:02 AM

Well, it's all good, really. I find Craig amusing, has good points, but also has *NO* patience for the mentally deficient. Not so much a bad thing, really...
We are, I must admit, overrun with the stupid. But what's one more, eh?
Anyway, Craig is awesome. Yes, yes, he can also be, well...not a nice guy. But he's cool. I take his points, filter them through my politically-correct lens, and see the good points for what they are. Point being, we all have an opinion--you know what they say about opinions, don't you?--and everyone is perfectly willing to state it, wether anyone else wants to hear it or not (like me). So, for what its worth, I see Craig's point, and even though he's abrasive about it, he is at least partially correct. I suppose we wouldn't want to be overrun with those who simply will not do any work for themselves. It has the potential, even, to crash the BBS with posts of stupid or repeated questions. There *ARE* resources, and there *ARE* many links, and many different ways of finding them, it just takes a small amount of effort to find them. I know. I've hunted, and I have found many types of FAQs, websites, and even the man pages that are a tremendous help. Sometimes I have to look in several different spots to get pieces of one answer to put together, but I eventually get it. There *ARE* usually install instructions for tarballs, and as rpm's are simpler, they really don't change much from the install of any other rpm. I'm not sure where the instructions for rpm are, but I'm sure theres a man page for it.
I also think that I would like someone (if they know, of course) to answer my questions if they can help me. I know it's alot to ask, what with the traffic these days, but sometimes it would be nice to have a little help. I know everyone is doing their best, and that's all I can ask.

Aragorn

09-09-2001, 03:22 AM

Breetie,

I agree with you. I even can agree with Craig on a few points, but I don't accept nor appreciate the manner in which he expresses them. None the less I understand that LNO or any other community doesn't want to be over run by idiots. Although wouldn't you say as much that to decide to make the transition is a wise and noble gesture in which they ought to atleast deserve the respect to get a few questions answered even blind ones? I want to see Linux progress, I want to see Linux over run Mr. Gates(I know it won't happen, but it is a pipe dream) and I agree with Craig on that fact. I also want to see a few innocent newbies be nudged toward Linux, and get the answers and also be persauded to find answers on their own. Although IMHO I feel that when you answer their questions they still have to go and actually do what you have told them and that is a learning experience in itself to which they can share with other newbies later on. Also, by experiencing having to do it, whether following a step by step answer by us or a manual, they'll still run into snags that we haven't. Then they'll have to figure it out themselves and then be able to share the answers with us, even if we nudged them in the right direction to find an answer they still found it themselves.

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

av1998

09-09-2001, 03:36 AM

Well, it is rather interesting to learn that an elitist and arrogant viewpoint is being cherished on this board, and even receives support.

quote:
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Linux is not being taught in school.
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Good. The operating system wasn't designed for those people.

Somehow it is extremely short-sighted for someone to actually say that. In other words, if let's say Math is not taught in school ..... I guess you would say, "Hell yea ! Why should kids learn Math. Math is only for us super-brainiacs. It is not designed for ordinary everyday folks."

As someone in the education arena, I hope your children are home-schooled by you and you alone because mainstream knowledge wouldn't suit your needs.

Aragorn

09-09-2001, 03:41 AM

I completely agree! I think Linux should be taugh in schools, in our computer classes. If anything it will give students a better understanding of how a computer works than what Windows can provide. As well as an environment that is ideal for programming students. I was a programming student for all 4 years I was in High school and I only wish I had learned to program in Linux. I used Borland 4.0, which if anyone has used Borland, it has it's own version of almost every header file that won't really work anywhere else. Atleast the version that we used in my school, that doesn't stand to be a fact because I don't know what Borland has out on the market now or anything of that sort. But I just know then, when I made the transition from programming in Windows Borland to Linux I had to kinda relearn C.

Aragorn

[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: Aragorn ]

binaryDigit

09-09-2001, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by av1998:
Well, it is rather interesting to learn that an elitist and arrogant viewpoint is being cherished on this board, and even receives support.


Craig flamed you, and it made me laugh.

av1998

09-09-2001, 10:25 AM

I am quite flattered to have some of you feel amused by the action going on within this thread. If you're one lonely, unattractive, sick puppy sitting in front of your Linux nerd box on a Saturday night checking out kiddie pornsites and the duel between av1998 and Craig McPherson ..... welcome and enjoy yourself ! Make some popcorn, get a beer, treat everything you read as being 'flames' and laugh yourself silly before beating your monkey prior to bedtime. ;)

However, as Aragorn and myself have emphasized, this issue has pitted 2 camps of Linux advocates against each other's so-called 'ideology'. I have read some books by Linus Torvalds and John 'MadDog' Hall, and I can assure all of you that Aragorn and myself are heading in the direction that Linus and John 'MadDog' wants their OS to go.

TacKat

09-09-2001, 12:46 PM

A very humorous post thusfar indeed. :)

Craig, there is a limit as to how much some needs to know to make something work for their purposes. Just as I don't expect Mr. Joe Average to know what an IDE controller is, I don't expect you to be able to list the intricate details of your processor.

Do you know the maximum power? The die size? Number of gates? Smallest resolvable feature size?

Probably not. Does this mean you shouldn't be allowed to use Linux?

Tell you what, since I'm a nice guy, you have my permission to use Linux even though you can't tell me what frequency of light your CD-ROM uses. You don't even have to know the difference between a p-channel and n-channel transistor. You can thank me later. :)

Rob 'Feztaa' Park

09-09-2001, 10:13 PM

hmmm...

Linux should absolutely not be taught in schools.

My classmates - and indeed, my own *teacher* has difficulty using windows - can you imagine the nightmare that would be if it were linux?

This is true - at my school, when I took the computer course in grade 11, lots of people had questions. They asked the teacher for answers, but she was unable to supply them - when she learned how skilled I was with computers, she asked me for help. Soon the students realized it was faster to just ask me for help than it was to go through her.

At this school, the programming unit was about Turbo Pascal. The teacher claimed it would take approximately 2-4 weeks for me to complete the unit. Indeed, it took me barely 1 1/2 hours from start to finish.

The one benefit of this school is that they use Windows - the same OS as people have at home. So even though the people don't have much of a clue, at least what they learn at school is consistent with what they use at home. Imagine if they used linux at the school - Not only would everybody be lost, but there'd be no consistency between the school computers, and their home computers! That would truly be a disaster.

Suffice it to say, I am not taking computers in grade 12, because a) I have nothing to gain from the course and b) the only thing I like less than giving free help to clueless boobs is having somebody else be paid for it.

Anyway, I guess that's the end of my rant. I agree with Craig entirely, even if I am a bit more mellow about it. Linux works great on my desktop, but I shudder to think what linux does on a stupid person's desktop.

Dark Ninja

09-09-2001, 10:20 PM

...I like using Linux because other people don't. I don't mind helping others if they ask the right questions, but being a Linux user puts you in a different category among other computer users. Personally, I don't care if Linux becomes a big booming desktop operating system. I'd rather NOT have it that way, because then the software would stop being free and Linux would just suck.

L0L Seems like a stupid point, but it's mine, and I'm sticking to it.

Also - Craig is right for the most part, and I think he said everything quite eloquently. :D

Dark Ninja

Breetie

09-09-2001, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Aragorn:
I completely agree! I think Linux should be taugh in schools, in our computer classes. If anything it will give students a better understanding of how a computer works than what Windows can provide. As well as an environment that is ideal for programming students. I was a programming student for all 4 years I was in High school and I only wish I had learned to program in Linux. I used Borland 4.0, which if anyone has used Borland, it has it's own version of almost every header file that won't really work anywhere else. Atleast the version that we used in my school, that doesn't stand to be a fact because I don't know what Borland has out on the market now or anything of that sort. But I just know then, when I made the transition from programming in Windows Borland to Linux I had to kinda relearn C.

Aragorn

[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: Aragorn ]

Please understand, I hold everyone in the highest respect (of course, Craig hasn't flamed me, yet, either, but I'm sure he'll get to me, when he has time), it just seems like the two fronts we have facing off, here, have created a rather unbridgeable impass. Who's right?
Is it too much to ask to have people help themselves?
Is it such a bad thing to answer 'stupid' questions? (Keep in mind 'stupid' is highly subjective.)
I don't know. I don't have the answer we need to cover this issue with a blanket. All I know, is that I, for my part, will continue to give people room, and allow them the right to make/say/ask something stupid. I do it, too, and I'd sure hope someone else would forgive *ME* when I might ask something that I could have answered myself, or that I should already know. Mutual respect goes a long way.

mychl

09-09-2001, 11:10 PM

Well kids, here's my $.02...

ANyway you want it, linux can do it.

You want an "Eletist" version of linux??? There will always be linux for the intellectual. As Craig has posted already, there are reasons that coding is important to get a linux machine running, it is written by and for coders.

There are also a great number of people who can figure out how to get things done with linux, but don't want to spend so much time with it that there is none left for other avenues of thining. For these people, there will be a version of linux as well.

As for the linux for idiots guide, well there will be one of those too. Linux is free, yes. But someone will eventually make a distro of linux that is idiot proof and they will sell it for more $ than what distros are going for now, and less $ than windows is selling for.

Thats what I like the most about linux, the varying degrees of difficulty that come with different distros.

I could go on and on, but I I"m sure you get the point.

And as for Newbies reading and looking for themselves, just incorporate a little frinedly instruction to do so in your reply to them... as you help them.

:p

Craig McPherson

09-10-2001, 12:01 AM

The way I see it, this is strongly analogous to the welfare system.

Society can be divided into four types of people:

Those who are on welfare but don't want to be there: These are the intelligent newbies. They want to work and learn and make something of themselves. They don't want to be useless drains on society. They don't plan to stay on welfare forever. They hope to get a job and support themselves. They're opposed to free handouts, but are willing to accept a hand up.

Those who are on welfare and want to stay there forever: These are the dumb newbies. They don't want to work, they don't want to think, they don't want to hold down a job, they don't want to support themselves. They want free handouts for life at the expense of others. They are the dregs of society.

Those who aren't on welfare, but support the welfare addicts and dregs: These are non-newbies who say "give newbies unconditional help." These people want to keep the dregs on welfare and dependant on others for the rest of their lives. They do this out of a misguided sense of guilt and desire to "help their fellow man" because of their feelings of inadequacy about themselves.

Those who aren't on welfare, and do NOT support the welfare addicts: These are people like me who want to see the people on welfare become productive members of society instead of dregs.

The people saying "give people unconditional help" are possibly in category #3, but more likely are in category #2 -- they are on welfare themselves and don't want to have to work to better themselves. What they're really saying is "give ME unconditional help because I am a lazy bum."

As people mature, they invariably reach stage #4. Anybody who's not there yet will get there eventually -- they just haven't seen enough of the world yet.

Aragorn

09-10-2001, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Craig McPherson:
The way I see it, this is strongly analogous to the welfare system.

Society can be divided into four types of people:

Those who are on welfare but don't want to be there: These are the intelligent newbies. They want to work and learn and make something of themselves. They don't want to be useless drains on society. They don't plan to stay on welfare forever. They hope to get a job and support themselves. They're opposed to free handouts, but are willing to accept a hand up.

Those who are on welfare and want to stay there forever: These are the dumb newbies. They don't want to work, they don't want to think, they don't want to hold down a job, they don't want to support themselves. They want free handouts for life at the expense of others. They are the dregs of society.

Those who aren't on welfare, but support the welfare addicts and dregs: These are non-newbies who say "give newbies unconditional help." These people want to keep the dregs on welfare and dependant on others for the rest of their lives. They do this out of a misguided sense of guilt and desire to "help their fellow man" because of their feelings of inadequacy about themselves.

Those who aren't on welfare, and do NOT support the welfare addicts: These are people like me who want to see the people on welfare become productive members of society instead of dregs.

The people saying "give people unconditional help" are possibly in category #3, but more likely are in category #2 -- they are on welfare themselves and don't want to have to work to better themselves. What they're really saying is "give ME unconditional help because I am a lazy bum."

As people mature, they invariably reach stage #4. Anybody who's not there yet will get there eventually -- they just haven't seen enough of the world yet.

Craig,

With this I can almost COMPLETELY agree with you. I believe you have a very good analogy here and I am by no means a welfare supporter or believer. Yet! I just have to throw out the way I feel about it.

A newbie is sort of being reborn to an OS, so to use a different analogy.

If you were born and put into the world to fend for yourself at birth, you'd die. Now we have to give a bit of credit that our newbies are a bit more intelligent than a newborn, but we do have to accept that they are used to the way M$ works. So they expect it to be handed to them, that is why I say nudge them to the right direction to figure it out for themselves. That way they will index those sites in their brain to go back to and look it up before they ask, then they can ask. I still feel we need to help those that want an immediate answer, but I see your point of view. You and me have the largest difference I believe not in our point of view, but in how it pertains to us. You are a member of this site and have no attachments to whether newbies get an answer here or not. I on the other hand am an administrator who has a certain bit of responsibility, that is why I have the problem with Internet.Com not this site in particular. If I had a problem with this site as a whole I would not be here posting. I believe LNO has helped a lot of newbies, and for that many are thankful. I just have a different approach and opinion on how they should be helped. I don't feel that our point of views are as far off as I originally felt they did, maybe that is a case of you calming down thus me calming down. But your analogy made a lot of sense I just look at it a slightly different way. I don't want to be a welfare provider, but I do want to be a employment agency for these newbies(Employment agencies do a lot of training and testing before finding an employer).

Aragorn
Admin of GetLinuxOnline.Com

uriah.k

09-10-2001, 01:48 AM

Yah, I don't like it so much when people ask really simple questions. Or really uneducated questions.Its okay, but I used to think that everyone(including myself of course)
liked to try to find out every thing
they could about their system hardware and software so that they wouldn't have to rely on other people. Apparently I was sadly mistaken and thats not the case.
I'm not really very into computers or linux.(though they are cool :)
I just want to use something thats quality(linux) and I want to know what to do and how to fix things/set things up/help others.
If I'm gonna use something then I want to know whats going on with it and what can and possibly will go wrong.

Saptech

09-10-2001, 04:41 AM

I've been using Linux about a couple of years now, but I still use Windoze since my job uses it. So I consider myself still a Linux newbie, but I read lots of these questions and most of the time I can't explain how to fix their problems, but if I had that problem before and I found a link to a site with answers then I will put the link up for them to go and read on how to fix the problem.

av1998

09-10-2001, 08:55 AM

The comparison between Linux and welfare is so terribly flawed. When comparisons are drawn, there are guidelines ..... with the basic guideline being the 2 are both 'apples and apples' instead of 'apples and oranges'. Apparently, your self-proclaimed intelligence is just that: "SELF"- proclaimed.

- People who seek welfare have either no ability to work or no intention to work.
- People who seek to learn Linux have the ability to learn and the intention to learn Linux. At the very least, they want to try.

If you have been reading my responses from the beginning, I am sure you will see that I am speaking from an educator's point-of-view. The primary focus of an educator's point-of-view is always for the benefit of the children, the next generation of leaders. How can one possibly dump a bunch of innocent kids asking so-called 'stupid' questions into the same barrel as adults on welfare ? Have you come across questions such as "Why are there 7 colors in the rainbow ?", "How do birds fly ?" and etc.
Obviously not. Are you even a married man with a family, wife, kids and so on ? Are you even a legal-aged adult who is matured enough to think about the integrity of others rather than '*****' about everybody else being 'idiots' and welfare recipients/givers ? Of course, if you dislike the American political, educational and welfare systems so bad ..... there are always other countries for someone like you.

The bottom line is this; people who come to LNO as newbies arrived here with ALL the intention to learn Linux. Otherwise, why would they even take the trouble to find LNO and to post questions.

By the way, having a question answered right here at LNO doesn't mean a magic wand is waved and the newbie's system would mysteriously start to work. ;) Don't we wish that's the case, huh ? The newbie will still have to go through all the steps to make his/her system work. Let me repeat, "The newbie still needs to do the work and spend the time/effort." Welfare ? I don't think so. Employment agency ? Yes.

The disagreement here goes back to your notion that Linux is not for the general public. I am curious to know how many people on this board who do not consider themselves and their children to be the general public.

[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: av1998 ]

[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: av1998 ]

Craig McPherson

09-10-2001, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by av1998:
- People who seek welfare have either no ability to work or no intention to work.

- People who seek to learn Linux have the ability to learn and the intention to learn Linux. At the very least, they want to try.

No, no. You're either being ignorant or intentionally difficult.

People on welfare are of two types:

1. Those who are just in a bad situation at the moment and want to better themselves and get off welfare.

2. Those who want to never work and wish to remain societal dregs.

There are two types of Linux newbies:

1. Those who want to learn.

2. Those who want someone else to do all their work for them, don't want to learn anything, and want to receive free oral sex from everyone they meet.

It's exactly the same.

The primary focus of an educator's point-of-view is always for the benefit of the children, the next generation of leaders.

Censorship is done "for the sake of the children." Book burnings are held "for the sake of the children." People with abnormal sexual lifestyles are forced to live in the shadows "for the sake of the children." Adolph Hitler exterminated 10 million unwanted people "for the sake of the children as long as they're Aryan children." Nearly every attrocity and injustice of the past century has been done "for the sake of the children." Do you have a television show you like? Too bad; someone just said "won't somebody please think of the children?!" and now it's banned. All logic and common sense goes out the window when someone pationately cries "won't somebody please think of the CHILDREN?!"

So don't give me that crap.

people who come to LNO as newbies arrived here with ALL the intention to learn Linux.

False. The good ones did. The evil ones did not.

Otherwise, why would they even take the trouble to find LNO and to post questions.

Because they're pathetic little boys who saw a Redhat commercial on ZDTV and want to become "31337 h4x0r d00ds" to spite Bill Gates. They don't care about the OS, they just want to rebel against something and they've chosen Microsoft. They're posers wanting to identify with some imagined subculture.

They're fanboys who just want to be a part of some "resistance movement" or be "more 31337" than their friends.

Have you come across questions such as "Why are there 7 colors in the rainbow ?", "How do birds fly ?" and etc.

If someone asked me that, I'd take an encyclopedia and help him to look it up instead of telling him the answer.

That way, in the future, the next time he needed to know something, he might try the encyclopedia first before coming to me.

But I guess teaching people how to learn things for themselves runs contrary to your "educational system" -- if people were taught how to learn things for themselves, you'd be out of work so you want to keep them ignorant and dependent on you, oh benevolent Fuhrer!

Are you even a married man with a family, wife, kids and so on?

Wow, the fact that you're a breeder instantly makes you a world-class guru and philospher wh is wise to the ways of the world. The fact that you've mastered such advanced truths as insert tab A into slot B must mean you know all sorts of great things!

How can one possibly dump a bunch of innocent kids asking so-called 'stupid' questions into the same barrel as adults on welfare?

One word: entitlement. They both think they're entitled to something for free without having to work for it.

I think as you grow older, you'll find that your estimation of the average person has been greatly, greatly exagerated. Don't get me wrong, optimism is a great trait, but so is realism.

[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: Craig McPherson ]

Aragorn

09-10-2001, 10:02 AM

I have to say that there are more than two types of newbies out there. But Craig, think for a second about this. As far as the notion goes that he would be out of a job if people thought on their own, c'mon they need guidance first. They are given the nudge(rather in school forced, but that is a whole different topic) to go find it themselves in a text book, library, internet, etc. Yet, when they ask "How does a bird fly?" they still can answer them without compromising this student for the rest of their lives because they didn't look it up themselves. In fact, they possibly could have sparked an interest in aviary(sp?) science and become a leading scientist in a......well wherever aviary scientists work(Museum, Zoo, etc...)! :) We don't know who we are booting from the community because they want a quick answer and we won't give it to them. I want people to take an interest in Linux, but that is part of the reason I have a website dedicated to Linux. I also want even the supposed or so called "idiots" to be able to use the OS. I feel it is free for everyone to use and at the very least it takes an idiot to another level in the fact that he will have to deal with problems even if we are the primary source of their solution. I have been shown how to do a lot of things and I know how to do them now and could teach others. For instance, I worked construction for a few years, I needed to know how to frame a corner(It is more complex than putting a few 2x4's together). If I had been told to go look it up, I would have never been able to figure it out without actually being shown. Because there is stuff the book doesn't tell you or tricks of the trade that makes it more sturdy, reliable, easier to build, etc. So I was shown, now I can show anyone how to frame a corner, or do a door header, or cut in a roof(definitely the most challenging task). I was shown those things and I asked questions without looking them up.

Aragorn

Craig McPherson

09-10-2001, 10:19 AM

Okay, very well, you're obviously not going to agree with me on this. But you can't stop me from doing what my heart tells me is right. You don't have the physical capacity to stop me. The only people who could stop me from doing what I think is right would be the Internet.Com administation, and I don't think they give one rat's patoot about whether or not I ignore certain people because I don't like the kinds of questions they ask.

I'll cut you a deal. I'll help the people who ask questions intelligently, and you help the rest. We'll see who does more good for society. But in two years, you'll be begging to switch roles. You might be bright-eyed and idealistic now, but they will drag you down. The more you act as an enabler for them, the more energy they'll suck from you, the more they'll demand of you while offering nothing in return, and the thinner and thinner your nerves will get. They'll drain away all the vitality you have: physical, mental, social, spiritual. They'll batter your psyche until you just want to run them through meat grinders. They'll suck away any hopes and dreams you have. Your life will become one hollow, empty nightmare haunted by evil, life-draining newbies until you're left an angry, old, withered-up, bitter elitist jerkwad like me. It'll happen to you.

It happens to everybody.

It's just a matter of time.

carlywarly

09-10-2001, 10:23 AM

So, why are there 7 colours in the rainbow ? Think about the question. Do you really know the answer, or are you going to regurgitate an age-old response ( do you really believe you can see indigo? ).

That is actually a very difficult question to answer, and is probaby unanswerable.

Arrogance is not a very appealing personal quality.

[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: carlywarly ]

av1998

09-10-2001, 10:28 AM

There are two types of Linux newbies:

1. Those who want to learn.

2. Those who want someone else to do all their work for them, don't want to learn anything, and want to receive free oral sex from everyone they meet.

It's exactly the same.

Alright, let me get this straight ... a newbie asks a 'stupid' question. The newbie gets an answer to that 'stupid' question. BAM ! All work is done. Newbie's computer starts working and receives felatio on top of that. Well, I guess if you say it's the same as welfare, then it must be true.

Wow, your logic of argument is getting better and better. Wait ... there's more ...

Censorship is done "for the sake of the children." Book burnings are held "for the sake of the children." People with abnormal sexual lifestyles are forced to live in the shadows "for the sake of the children." Adolph Hitler exterminated 10 million unwanted people "for the sake of the children as long as they're Aryan children." Nearly every attrocity and injustice of the past century has been done "for the sake of the children." Do you have a television show you like? Too bad; someone just said "won't somebody please think of the children?!" and now it's banned. All logic and common sense goes out the window when someone pationately cries "won't somebody please think of the CHILDREN?!"

So don't give me that crap.

O.K. then, I guess we should all just forget educating children about Linux and forget about educating children, period. How's that for not giving you crap ?

But I guess teaching people how to learn things for themselves runs contrary to your "educational system" -- if people were taught how to learn things for themselves, you'd be out of work so you want to keep them ignorant and dependent on you, oh benevolent Fuhrer!

Teachers out of work ? Come on, get real, I'd say your job as a Network Administrator is way more at risk than me being a teacher.
I guess that explains why I should turn around and accuse you of shoving newbies to the curb and not learn Linux - less competition for you, right ? Good masterplan.

quote:
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Are you even a married man with a family, wife, kids and so on?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, the fact that you're a breeder instantly makes you a world-class guru and philospher wh is wise to the ways of the world. The fact that you've mastered such advanced truths as insert tab A into slot B must mean you know all sorts of great things!

Are you deliberately avoiding my question here by diverting the issue ? What does being a parent and caring/educating their offspring have to do with the act of reproduction ? Good trick there.

This drama has gone on long enough. This post exposes enough of you that I can let the case go to rest for now. People who have read this far would be able to stake their own stands based on their personal comfort level in regards to which camp they will belong to. If Linus or John Hall happens to drop in here to say a few words, that should steer everybody on the right path unanimously. Until then, I guess the separation will remain whether or not I flame Mr. McPherson for the rest of the week.

RTFM

09-10-2001, 10:33 AM

Aragorn: stop for a moment and consider what you are saying/typing ... sheesh.

I agree on nearly everything here with Craig.

Also, for the love of whoeverpeteissupposedtobe, Strike posted this to help newcomers help themselves by showing them how to ask questions intellegently! Thats all! Get a stronger grip on reality and quit arguing for the sake of arguing.

Aragorn

09-10-2001, 10:41 AM

Tminos,

I by no means am arguing just to argue. I am not even arguing. I am just expressing my point of view, it was challenged so I explained myself and explained myself and, well you get the point. It is fine if you agree with Craig, it is fine if everyone here agrees with Craig, I even agree with Craig on a few points. I am not trying to argue his stance, I am just trying to explain mine. He is right that helping the certain newbies that have been so talked about here can wear thin on your nerves, that isn't a reason to neglect them. And I have a fine grip on reality thank you.

Aragorn

Craig McPherson

09-10-2001, 10:48 AM

Alright, let me get this straight ... a newbie asks a 'stupid' question. The newbie gets an answer to that 'stupid' question. BAM! All work is done. Newbie's computer starts working and receives felatio on top of that.

No, the Stupid Newbies don't want just "an answer." They want you to single-handedly spend every moment of your life doing everything for them, from installation onward. They will not leave you alone; they want you to do everything until their computer is working flawlessly and they have received fellatio (or equivalent).

O.K. then, I guess we should all just forget educating children about Linux and forget about educating children, period. How's that for not giving you crap ?

Strawman. That's not what I said. I said it's wrong to justify atrocities by saying "please think of the children!"

Have you never had a favorite book banned from your local library because some whacko parents' group wanted to "protect the children"?

Oh, wait, you're probably a member of the whacko parents' group that wants to ban the dangerous book from the library. My apologies.

I guess that explains why I should turn around and accuse you of shoving newbies to the curb and not learn Linux - less competition for you, right ? Good masterplan.

Nope. I'm just tired of all the MCSEs with no skills roaming the streets these days. They are the ones whose jobs are at stake, not me. They got themselves into a field where they have no skill because they thought it would be "leet", and now they're mopping floors.

I want people in technology to be people who actually have an interest in technology, not people who are just trying to earn money, piss off Bill Gates, or be "leet h4x0r d00dz." Sure, if those people want to get themselves into something they're not qualified for, that's their business. But I am not going to waste my time helping them shoot themselves in the foot in their latest masturbatory pursuits.

Are you deliberately avoiding my question here by diverting the issue ? What does being a parent and caring/educating their offspring have to do with the act of reproduction?

The issue is that you think being a Breeder makes you superior to others. It does not. Being a Breeder makes you a selfish, vainglorious twat who, against all logic, decided that the world needed more copies of yourself. Oh, great Breeder, share your wisdom with us!

This drama has gone on long enough. This post exposes enough of you that I can let the case go to rest for now.

Translation: you're sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "La la la, I'm not listening! I can't hear you!" Cute appeal to authority there by mentioning Linus Torvalds, but it will get you nowhere. You've lost and you're powerless and you've gone to cry to mommy.

Everyone in this thread who's been here more than a year or two has at least in part agreed with what I'm saying, and your Astroturfing can't change that fact. I think you're suffering from a severe and chronic case of Sour Grapes.

cha-ching

Strike

09-10-2001, 10:49 AM

Okay, okay, I'm gonna post one last post to this and then close it because it has gone on long enough (and because I want the last word :)).

You can not deny that there are some people who want to have their hand held the entire way through the learning process. I have had people ask for this exact thing, and they shuddered when it was suggested that they simply try things on their own and post each of their problems on a case by case basis here. Maybe it was just a feeling of being overwhelmed by too many things at once, or maybe it was just a total lack of willingness to try things on their own. The point was, the effort that some people are willing to put forth to learn Linux is just not enough given the knowledge they are equipped with. I think that catering to these people would be a drag on the board and on Linux (and society itself?). In fact, most of the people who fall into this category really have no business using Linux and have no good reason to be trying to use it (even a simple "I wanted to try something new" would do, but even that wasn't offered as a justification). Also, note that I said "to be trying to use it", and not "to be trying to learn to use it". If the new class of newbies doesn't learn how to help themselves, they will be stuck in the cycle of asking how to do everything here on this board. And while that is a good way of learning how to do stuff, it is not proactive learning, it is passive learning. It's "hmm... I don't know how to do this, nor do I know where I could find such information other than the LNO board - guess I'll ask there". This hampers the newbie, period.

Anyway, all the points have been made (including the ones I've reiterated really) and the discussion is getting personal and nasty (Godwin's law! :D), so I'm closing this thread. My only intent was to HELP, not to make a statement about the current state of things as far as newbies and newbie questions go or to delineate a class system or to debate what direction Linux should be taking. Just to help, period.

End of discussion.