Correction: Desktop concept is NOT ready for Linux

[evac-q8r]

Dear Forum Participants,

I just wanted to say that I think we have it backwards when we believe that Linux is/isn't ready for the desktop world. Rather, desktop computing or average computer users are not ready for Linux. Just wanted to clarify that. I must admit that I owe it to the concept of Linux, open source, and the overall philosophy of Linux. I am indeed a much stronger desktop user and therefore a better person. In fact, I just got back into computers about 3 years ago because of Linux. I never even had the desire to use computers before that because something just was not right about the standard enviroment. Now I'm much happier that my desktop enviroment is like a reflection of myself.

I honestly feel if you can't take the time to learn about twenty (20) or so commands to do many amazing things on your workstation you don't deserve to have a computer. Use the ones that are available to you at school, work, or at your buddies crib, otherwise you have wasted $1000 US Dollars on a piece of hardware that you'll never completely take advantage of. I do my research at Jefferson Lab in Newport News, VA and I was so thankful the day that they required all machines running on the network to have Red Hat on them for security purposes. It gave me more confidence that things were and still are making a change for the better.

EVAC

[mchangun]

I disagree. Not everybody needs a computer to do amazing things for them. Many ppl use it for very simple things like web browisng 4 recipes and emailing their parents (im thinking about my mom here). I don't think anyone would say my mom wasted her money 2 buy a computer to get on the internet to do simple things or do stuff like word processing.

Don't get me wrong though, i AM for Linux becoming the mainstreem desktop OS.

[unixtool]

It would seem to me that both comments are correct. Linux "may" not be ready for the desktop, although it has come leaps and bounds from the "green" screen. The common "user" may not be ready for Linux. That is a philosophical for the next generation upon statistics, history, and where it has gone; some years later. "Mom" may be a sys admin. But still has to keep the kids "internet saavy" for school, church, libraries, etc.
The total environ of computers change on a daily basis. The design of Linux and the GUI; which is really the question here, is ever changing and improving.
The idea of a window manager, be it exploiter, KDE, Gnome, WM, etc is to have a usable interface for the user. That user is responsible for making it his/her own. Windows has forced users into believing that Exploiter is the only way to get things done. But that is another issue entirely. My favorite WM(Window Manager) is Window Maker with is detail to design and interface "prettyness" but maintaining funtionality. That is my responsibilty. Not another user, another WM group, etc.
Users need to think for themselves and not have something forced down their throat. At least that was what we should be doing.

My humble opinion that amounts to 2 cents worth of text.

[evac-q8r]

To be more concise about the argument I was trying to make earlier, if you consider all the elements that go into making a computer, hard drive, processor, memory, etc. , then to use a computer to surf the internet is a big waste of one's money. Like I said, use the one at school, work, or friends, and if you can't find any of those, the local library should definitely have some. Seriously, I really mean this.

Many people buy nice computers and never really use to CPU speed for what it was meant. Never use the capacity of the harddrive, or never write any computer programs to fully access the memory capacity. I was pissed off when my own mom bought a computer just to do her finances which she can't even really do anyways. What is buying a computer for that all about. I mean if you want to know how much money you have then get out a pen, paper, and a calculator and add and/or subtract.

There are certain technologies slighty better than cell phones that can accomplish the very same thing for much less.

By the way, Blackbox is my favorite WM. I will eventually try Window Maker when I get the energy to, in response to unixtool.

Sincerely,

EVAC

[sharth]

Personally, I think it depends on how you use a computer. Most of my family views the computer as a tool. Something to use for homework, and to play some games on. However, I like to use the comptuer to fiddle around with stuff. I like to try to get things working and what not. I like being able to try and say, hey, I think I'm going to want to get around to getting that web-page working. Everything to do this is right there in front of me. However, my family would want to pull up frontpage by clicking on a link, I would rather pull up vim and type it all myself. (39 lines of layout. 12 html, 27 css.)

To me, it all depends on that factor. It the computer a tool? or is the computer itself a game.

[mchangun]

It seems we're debating the definition of a desktop computer. This is simiilar, if not identical to say a car. Most families buy cars just to drive themsevles around and they don't wnat to know anything more about the car. Some ethusiasts tweak and mod their car.

@evac. Your solution as to going to a public library or using a friend computer seems impractical. This is analogous again to owning a car. Applying your logic to the car situation would mean if one does not tweak the car, do everything u can with it and know all the stuff that there is to know about it, then don't buy one and take the bus. As you can see, this doesnt make sense. What u're saying seems to remind me what that IBM dude said, (paraphrased) "I don't see the need for more than 5 PCs".

[evac-q8r]

Well I think to buy a whole new computer system just to e-mail a friend or surf the internet seems just as impractical, very impractical in terms of value for investment. You raise some good points, but as far as taking the bus or buying a car we are talking about getting the most out of your investment per monetary unit, if you will. You can get a heck of a lot out of a car as far as convenience and therefore value or worth even without knowing the details of fixing and maintanance.

I mean computer sellers make so much money advertising the standard specifications that I have already mentioned, when for the normal concerns of a computer user is to e-mail, surf, write a paper all they need is a 333MHz, 5GB, 128 RAM computer memory. In other words stop selling me 2003 BMW 750's when I could be buying a competitive used 1998 Ford Taurus which will accomplish the exact same for one-tenth the price. If I can't get that deal, then I'm carrying my butt to the library! Do you really believe that going to the library is impratical. I go there all the time to check out computer books that I'd otherwise have to buy from a bookstore. That is what I spend my local taxes on.

I guess people ought to realize this before making an investment. Unfortunately, it won't matter because things are being marketed the way they are because of people's ignorance. There are all types of cars on the market and most people buy the best one in which they can afford. Computers are totally different, most people can afford to buy higher end specs, but could save alot of money by buying something much cheaper in value.

If it weren't for Linux I almost feel like I do not have any business owning the computer I have.
Anyways, have a good day, it is 4 inthe morning over here. I presume you are in Japan. Peace.

EVAC

[mchangun]

mchangun
Grasshopper

Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 36

hong kong ;)

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by mchangun
mchangun
Grasshopper

Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 36

hong kong ;)

I totally agree with you man.

[sean_foulkes]

It's all about advertising, man. Even dell's ads. Mp3s and DVD-playing don't require a 3.06Ghz Pentium 4 with 512MB ram and a 120 GB hard drive. Just remember: it's all about advertising.

[Wolfger]

Originally posted by sean_foulkes
It's all about advertising, man. Even dell's ads. Mp3s and DVD-playing don't require a 3.06Ghz Pentium 4 with 512MB ram and a 120 GB hard drive. Just remember: it's all about advertising.

You're right... About everything but the HD. I think 120GB might be a tad on the small side :-)

[sean_foulkes]

Ok: how about this----

(4) 36GB 10,000rpm Western Digital SerialATA hard drives in RAID 0+1

Although I don't think DELL sells stuff like that.

[plattypus1]

Okay, I'd like to thank you guys for finally raising this topic. I have been witin inches of CRYING when I think about what my family uses their computer (Pentium 4 1.8Ghz, 256MB RAM, 64MB Nvidia 3d card) for. The most intensive thing they do is play Winbloat Pinball. I finally decided to load the Unreal Tournament 2k3 demo on the machine to really use some of the capabilities. I know when I leave their needs would be served by my Pentium 166Mhz sitting next to that machine, running RH8 and faithfully spitting out web pages, or (since my little bro does play a little C&C) my AMD K6 500Mhz (that's the kind of crap I get stuck with) with 256MB of RAM. I just wish I could get them converted to Linux (or as my little bro calls it, "Linsux," even though he's never used it or anything) because then they'd realize that my mom really didn't need a 2Ghz Celeron for her photo printing, or a P4 1.8 to surf the 'net and e-mail friends...

Of course, you have got to remember the latest Dell ad- "It's got a Pentium 4 2.5Ghz, so it has all the power you need for playing MP3's, surfing the web, and sending e-mail"

[rondob]

I'm glad I live in a time & place where I have the freedom & income to purchase things I want, not just need. If J.Q. Public wants to spend $1K to e-mail mom, great! None of my business. Besides, he may bore of e-mail and learn eventually. Something he will never do at the Library. No need (at least for me) to get Anal over how others spend their money. :)

[evac-q8r]

Wow I love e-mails like this one. It shows how ignorant Americans can be sometimes. And I am definitely making the presumption that you are an American, rondob, as well as I. I think Americans need to be aware of the hardships that many other countries go through as far as computer technologies are concerned. Sammy Sosa bought his country Dominican Republic some computers. What a waste if all they do is email their mothers.

On top of that everyone doesn't have it like you rondob. Everyone isn't blessed to be able to buy whatever they want, like you and waste precious dollars just to email their mothers. And you can get these things done at the library or at school, or at work. I think almost all of us fit into one of those catagories at least. And at the same time if you can't realize the remarkable amount of money that these computer sellers and marketers and soaking out of your pocket, and the pocket of the general public...Oh, I forgot, you have it made. It doesn't even affect your wallet.

If you were trying to categorize me as an anal person, perhaps you should categorize me as individual who takes a stand on something, unlike you. As the old saying goes, "If you do not take a stand for something, then you'll fall for anything." :eek:

Sincerest Regards,

I love you all,

EVAC

[serz]

Originally posted by plattypus1
Okay, I'd like to thank you guys for finally raising this topic. I have been witin inches of CRYING when I think about what my family uses their computer (Pentium 4 1.8Ghz, 256MB RAM, 64MB Nvidia 3d card) for. The most intensive thing they do is play Winbloat Pinball. I finally decided to load the Unreal Tournament 2k3 demo on the machine to really use some of the capabilities. I know when I leave their needs would be served by my Pentium 166Mhz sitting next to that machine, running RH8 and faithfully spitting out web pages, or (since my little bro does play a little C&C) my AMD K6 500Mhz (that's the kind of crap I get stuck with) with 256MB of RAM. I just wish I could get them converted to Linux (or as my little bro calls it, "Linsux," even though he's never used it or anything) because then they'd realize that my mom really didn't need a 2Ghz Celeron for her photo printing, or a P4 1.8 to surf the 'net and e-mail friends...

That happens to every person that buys their first computer and they don't even play games.

[LrngTheHardWay]

Originally posted by evac-q8r
...desktop computing or average computer users are not ready for Linux....

...or getting behind the steering wheel of an automobile, for that matter.
;)

Originally posted by evac-q8r
It shows how ignorant Americans can be sometimes.
...and you were doing so well there for a moment.
After such a comment--so thoroughly infused with inexcusable prejudice--should we, or should we not, consider you to be an idiot?

[zdude255]

Yah I agree, you could play mp3s, send email, and surf with my old computer, which is a 33mhz MacOS 7.

Heck, even DOS and Terminals can play mp3s, send email and surf.

All most average people need power for is games. That only requires a decent CPU and decent GFX card.

[rondob]

1st: I did make a stand. What you or anyone else does with their money is their business. Not mine.

2nd: I type this sitting in front of a 300MHZ tangerine iBook running MDK 8.2 (hardly a high end computing system).

3rd: "No need (at least for me) to get Anal over how others spend their money". Is this about you? You, in particular? Hell I don't even know you. This is for anyone and/or everyone that is more concerned about what their neighbors are doing than about taking care of and minding their own business. The fact that you seem to have taken the Anal coment so personally makes me wonder. Oh well. :)

4th: Before you make too many assumptions about how good I "have it" or what things do or do not "effect me" you might want to find out a bit more about me. Or not, I really don't care either way.

5th: Just because I don't agree with you does not mean that I don't appreciate where you're comming from.

And,
6th: Did you happen to see that :) at the end of the last sentence in my reply? It was intended as a good natured poke. I was yanking your chain and apparently you didn't take it in the jovial manner it was intended. I'm trully sorry you took it so seriously.:D

RB

[evac-q8r]

Rondob,

OK I was a little upset about the comments you made only because I felt that you were trying to personally attack me. When I express an opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean that I am anal over the issue. It is just the way I feel about something. Do what you like, you know what I mean. I really respect the fact that you were able to look past my comments and still apologize and clarify yourself. I also apologize for the misunderstanding. I think it was just the way you opened it insinuating that you have the income to buy the things you want and not just need. Those comments appeared to be somewhat arrogant in my eyes. Anyways, have a good evening and I look forward to hearing from you again sometime on the forum. Stay cool. ;)

Sincerest Regards,

EVAC

[sean_foulkes]

why does everybody capitalize 'anal' ?:rolleyes:

[mage492]

Okay, I hardly think that I exemplify what computer users should be, but...

I own 6 computers. Aside from my iBook, my fastest is a 266 MHz. My slowest? I have a Mac Classic and a Mac SE that tie. I use every single one of them. Every single one of them was going to be thrown away (except the iBook), but I saved them. It's like evac said. Look at the waste our society produces (I'm American, too, you know). We throw away these perfectly good computers because the newest, bloated os can't run them.

Now, I admit that only one of those computers runs Linux, at the moment, but one fact remains. Every single one of those computers is still perfectly functional. Have a kid who wants to learn about computers? Give 'em a Classic. I got mine for free, and that's the best way to learn something. If you screw something up, who cares? Just re-install and start over again. I learned more about computers on that Classic than I could possibly have imagined. Look around. These old computers can be SERVERS (even the "lowly" Plus).

Now, I'm not trying to turn this into a pro-Mac monologue, but that's the hardware I'm most familiar with. 8 MHz is PLENTY for what most people do. Now, I hear people calling 500 slow?! That's blazing speed, to me! Of course, I strip EVERYTHING I don't use off of them, to speed them up.

How does this relate to Linux? Got a computer with some life left in it? Wanna speed it up?

Motto? Buy what you need, and nothing more. Then, use every single bit of that computer until it's dead. Oh, in defense of my laptop, let's just say that it's in anticipation of cool stuff in the future that needs the speed.

Sorry this was so long, but I like my "worthless" computers. After they die, I plan to entomb them, even!

[chatins]

I have an original IBM PC from 1981 that i show my girlfriend when she asks what a PC is.

That's as far as i go with the relics. I think giving a kid a mac is not pro linux. It's called being cheap.

If you can't burn an ISO from the command line
on all your systems, rethink the strategy.

[evac-q8r]

Yep. I agree that one should use every bit of computing power that someone is accessible to. I do my graduate research at Jefferson Lab. We need to examine terabytes upon terabytes of nuclear physics data. If anyone is interested in taking a look at the Linux Farm system which contains over 200 processing nodes go to this link. http://cc.jlab.org/docs/scicomp/design/linux-farm-node.html Pretty interesting stuff in the computer center.

Anyways, these machines are bombarded with so much data that they are almost continuously on. Just processing information. If you look carefully towards the bottom of the list we still have about 50 processors below 500MHz. Keep in mind these processors never stop processing for years on years (except when they do maintainance obviously.) This is exactly the point that mage was pointing out.

The reason why I brought this up is because when many of us buy computers we are always so concerned with buying the latest CPU processing power. However, unless you are chugging out some serious data intensive calculation the investment could be regarded as a waste. It's too bad that we do not savor the life out of these otherwise obsolete computers.

Sincerest Regards,

EVAC

[mage492]

Originally posted by chatins
That's as far as i go with the relics. I think giving a kid a mac is not pro linux. It's called being cheap.

Actually, it was mostly said as a pro-old computer thing. Of course, if someone would make a distro for the 68000 processor... I think that's gonna be my next computer project! (I'm feeling slightly masochistic, at the moment.) Now, if I could find a way to deal with the lack of an MMU...

As for being cheap, I happen to be a college student. My pockets aren't exactly full. That Classic was my first computer, and I'm still quite attached to it.

[AlexPlank]

Originally posted by mchangun
It seems we're debating the definition of a desktop computer. This is simiilar, if not identical to say a car. Most families buy cars just to drive themsevles around and they don't wnat to know anything more about the car. Some ethusiasts tweak and mod their car.

@evac. Your solution as to going to a public library or using a friend computer seems impractical. This is analogous again to owning a car. Applying your logic to the car situation would mean if one does not tweak the car, do everything u can with it and know all the stuff that there is to know about it, then don't buy one and take the bus. As you can see, this doesnt make sense. What u're saying seems to remind me what that IBM dude said, (paraphrased) "I don't see the need for more than 5 PCs".

Mabye there wouldnt be so many car deaths if only car enthusiasts drove around.

[evac-q8r]

Originally posted by mage492
Of course, if someone would make a distro for the 68000 processor... I think that's gonna be my next computer project! (I'm feeling slightly masochistic, at the moment.)

This sounds like a very interesting project if you really are planning on undertaking this. If you do succeed then I would like an image of the kernel. And then I'm going to save some money and invest in one of those microcontrollers.

EVAC

[mage492]

That may be awhile... I've currently got about 4 computer projects on my list. I'm also pretty new to Linux (though I love what I've seen, so far), so I want to get more comfortable with it, first. It's DEFINITELY on the list, though... :)

[sharth]

Originally posted by mage492
Actually, it was mostly said as a pro-old computer thing. Of course, if someone would make a distro for the 68000 processor... I think that's gonna be my next computer project! (I'm feeling slightly masochistic, at the moment.) Now, if I could find a way to deal with the lack of an MMU... Think Debian (http://www.debian.org/ports/m68k/)

[evac-q8r]

I do not know how new you are, but hopefully you know how to program in C well. There is a book known as Beginning Linux Programming. It may be very useful as a starting reference. You have aroused my interest into that aspect of computing, kernels and stuff. It is always somthing I neglected until now. Peace

EVAC

[mage492]

Well, I've done quite a bit with C++ (and a couple other languages), but I haven't done much with plain C. How different is it, as a whole?

Oh, and don't hold your breath on this getting done any time soon. My current project (a program to automate Dungeons & Dragons character creation) is taking MUCH longer than originally anticipated.

sharth: Well, Debian would probably be a good starting point. As I mentioned, the biggest issue is making it work without the MMU. The computer I want to try this on is about one generation too old for that.

I don't suppose LFS could be helpful here???

[evac-q8r]

The differences between C & C++ is a large debate eventhough I've never used much C++. The main difference is C++ support for classes which I believe are more useful in the interface and creation of objects and less involvment of pointers and things of that nature. Looking through most books its seems that coding especially right above the hardward level is more efficiently taken care of in C. That makes sense though the creation of characters (D& D) or objects with different abilities and skills with C++ classes.

Yep. I'm putting together a piece of software myself (using C). And its like you are saying, it is taking MUCH longer than I originally anticipated. I almost feel like I need to pay a team of software programmers to help me finish it in a timely manner. It just keeps branching out with no end in sight.

EVAC

[mage492]

<slightly off-topic>
I know what you mean about branching out! If you've ever paged through a rulebook for the game, you'll find half-a-million optional rules. Unfortunately, everyone in our group tries to use every single one of them. For my program to even be CONSIDERED, I've had to put in everything I can find.
<back on topic>

Thus far, it's being written in AppleScript (I use AppleScript to test algorithms, then transfer it to another language). That could be a neat project for practicing/learning C...

Needless to say, I'm GPL-ing it! :)

[Sepero]

How about this:
People can't use Linux until they know how to use Linux. ;)

Seriously though, I think you have the right idea evaq. They don't let jet pilots fly until they've been through extensive simulations, but is that what we need? Computer simulations on how to use a computer? (Nice paradox, eh? :p)

To be perfectly honest with you, in a lesser way, I think it is good, but it another way, it really bothers me too.

-I think it's good because their ignorance helps further the production and technology of computers.

-I think it's bad because they are ignorantly throwing their money at MS, and unknowingly locking themselves into a OS that they will have difficulty getting out of at a later time.

So what's the solution? Sites like the ones in my signature?

[sharth]

Well, we just need that video professor dude who is on tv every now and again selling those cdroms. the cds auto load and give a vcr like interface to using the computer. We need one of those for linux. one for gnome, one for kde, one for nethack, 26 for the command line :rolleyes: