For the LNO/JL old-timers.

[je_fro]

I have been coming to this board every day since last August, when I sought initial advice such as that which currently floods the "General Questions" forum. Slowly, I became able to help others in their quests. I usually try to help somebody solve something every day. The past few days, though, I've noticed that the posts are a lot less informed, or in bad taste, from people who didn't bother to look for answers and want it handed to them on a silver platter, from people who are so clueless that I wonder why they even bothered to install linux, or from really young kids.
Perhaps my perception is skewed. Perhaps I was just as helpless as some of these people.
Anyway, my question is this: Have you noticed LNO/JL changing over the years as Linux becomes more mainstream? I guess the obvious answer is yes, but I'm curious as to how. Is this a cyclical process, or has it been steadily increasing? Or is it all in my head?
Thanks for your time.

[DrFrankenstein]

I agree, tell 'em to RTFM. :D

[JohnT]

I think it can be a perception as your level matures. Your experiencing something shared by all, I believe. It's a hump you get over. I find myself passing over some posts due to the inability, it seems, of the poster to do the simplest look-up.

[emetib]

agree, i replied to a guy for a change to his prompt. i found the answer in the man pages in less than 5 minutes.

when i do ask a question, i'll always respond at the end with a thank you. doesn't seem like most people know what that is now days.

by the way johnt. thanks for the input on closing ports.

[2damncommon]

Some new users will learn WHERE to find information by reading our answers.
When they sometimes see man this or man that, google this or google that, check this link, they realize hey I could do that in the first place.
I read Linuxnewbie for about a year before I ever registered or posted.
I am far from an expert, now, but I am doing lots of things I want to.
I don't have a problem answering a basic problem sometimes. I have no problem attempting to answer something I may be familar with. I feel no obligation to answer every post, everyday.
I hope that everyone learns some everytime they check in here.
But any lazy SOB that hasn't got 30 minutes to review basic instructions or just comes to troll can go ....

[JohnT]

Originally posted by emetib
agree, i replied to a guy for a change to his prompt. i found the answer in the man pages in less than 5 minutes.

when i do ask a question, i'll always respond at the end with a thank you. doesn't seem like most people know what that is now days.

by the way johnt. thanks for the input on closing ports.

Your welcome. my friend.:p

[BigFatJoe]

problem with RTFM is that they'll come back asking to explain it to them. :D

I have found myself passing over more threads just b/c the same problems have been addressed 2 days ago, and so forth.

I find myself answering with a: see "man proggy", followed possibly by a small quote from the manpage. Seems more benefical than a RTFM. <-- a link to an article may also help. I have also seen ppl linking to a google search. This is kind of effective, as it illustrates first hand for the original poster how powerful google really is (who might still be a skeptic).

[hlrguy]

I haven't been here all that long although I have a lot of Linux/Unix experience. The only thing that I see, possibly more lately, is the first post with questions that could NOT help but be answered if the documentation CD were actually read. Since every distro includes this, and it is replicated on their web site, it kinda bugs me.

I don't say anything, cause the ones that are here any trying, hey they installed, my hats off to them, and you don't want to snuff it out. I have every manual for every distro with the most common subchapters in a file that I can just cut paste, sign my name and help out.

I am tired of saying use GAIM, when there is a whole chapter on that in the documentation, and it is right under the Internet start menu titled 'Instant Messaging'. If you can't find that on your own... :D

hlrguy

[twilli227]

I have been using RH for about 5 months, and searching for answers here for 4 months. Just over the past few weeks, there has been a change in the posts. These new members probably haven't checked all of the headings for answers. I will help them as much as I can and offer links or searches. Now I understand why mdwatts uses some of his stock answers. I appreciate your threads in helping me. Hats off to you all.

[sharth]

It's The Evil Name Change I Tell You! Nothing But Evil Has Stemmed From It! Shun JL! Praise LNO! wooooo :)

The stupid posts in elite i have a tug in my mind to ignore, but then i start to feel sorry for the poster, so i reply. I have started to yell at ppl for crossposting, and i usually commend on reading posting-rules, although that has been done some more. (followed that is)

I dunno, I usually search for answers on the board, and i usually find them, however, most of the ones i search for i've already seen on here and just forgot what post it was :) I dunno. I don't mind searching around a bit for someone if they aren't a pain. but if they don't seem like they are thankful, then It kinda turns me off.

But wait, this was about quality! I dunno, I haven't noticed that much of a decline. but there was a slight bit of a flaming that i got involved in, and some of the crap semi elite speak going on in general lin questions. But other than that. it hasn't been that bad. As we get more main-stream, the moderators will get more evil, (hehe) and we will get more idiots. Personally, I would rather search around for 30 minutes and find my answer, rather than wait a day for someone else to find it.

[retoon]

I am not an expert by any means, but alot of the questions that are asked do not require such. I came onto this site mainly to seek help, and those of you who have replied to me know what kinds of posts I have made. I am a pure bread LNO/JL linux user. I joined this forum about three months ago, and have learned so much of what I know about linux through this site, it would boggle the mind. My theory about forums like this one are that if I am gonna take, then I am gonna give. Whenever it is within my power, I answer questions. I try to atleast.:) I noticed that within the last three months that the questions have become more trivial and alot less detailed, but i think it is mainly because I am gradually becoming more advanced. I will always be grateful of all the help that I have recieved, and will do my best to spread whatever knowledge I gain from you all. Leave the little questions to folks like me, it boosts our egos!:p

[je_fro]

Originally posted by retoon
My theory about forums like this one are that if I am gonna take, then I am gonna give. Whenever it is within my power, I answer questions. I try to atleast.:) I noticed that within the last three months that the questions have become more trivial and alot less detailed, but i think it is mainly because I am gradually becoming more advanced. I will always be grateful of all the help that I have recieved, and will do my best to spread whatever knowledge I gain from you all. Leave the little questions to folks like me, it boosts our egos!:p

Well said! Thanks for all your insights!
I think that you and JohnT are right...it's a natural thing. (not that I know a DAMN thing (yet...))

[neondog]

I have to agree with Sharth about the name change. It wasn't needed. A place to help those new to the OS was what LNO was about. It made the newbies feel less intimidated, more at home. Do you remember your first post? I do, it was back when sensi was running the joint and I couldn't get my printer to work. Someone was polite enough to help and I really appriciated it. A simple fix.

So here we are now with pretty GUI's and all the bells & whistles that don't always work with the latest Dell/HP/{your comp here} and they wanna know why. Perhaps some are not ready to make the transition..some never will.

I don't think Linux is ready for the main-stream and curses to that "Lindows" dude that think he could make a buck by selling it to the masses..he left us to clean up his mess. Do you know a Lindow user? I sure as heck don't.

Do you guys remember back when DOS had freeware/shareware and the Jolly Green Giant squashed that? Probably not but the old-timers will. This is what we are facing now. David vs. Goliath, and if we are gonna take down the giant we have to put on our game face and fight the good fight. The time is ripe for change.

[je_fro]

Maybe I missed the all-new-JustLinux.com media blitz on the Disney channel, but I don't think the name change has anything to do with it. I think it is the good name of Linuxnewbie. There are a few Linux users I know here in Texas, and ALL of them are members here. We all discovered this site independently, too. I think it's a great forum, with a great following. That's what attracts the masses. For better or for worse.

[Elijah]

I kinda like the old lno where I could at least answer a few questions every other day but now some questions are beyond me, I wish I could help but (I need help myself :o ) some queries are now more advanced than before. So I ask, where did the newbies go to ??:(

[Any]

Can any of you who have been using Linux for a while remember what it was like reading the man pages at first?
They make no sense what so ever to someone new to Linux. The examples they give(if any) are always way way to complex.
Would be nice if they mentioned they had looked anyway.

[drummerboy195]

ive noticed this too, even in the short time that ive been at the level that i feel competent enough to ansewer questions. When i originally found this forum, the general feeling i got was that it was to be used only after every other resource had been exausted. now we have people posting asking for us to compile a kernel for them. never thought id be posting on a lno old-timers thread, but this change has happened within the course of a month. although this does mean one of two things
1. linux is attracting more people, and all the loosers end up here.
2. linux is attracting more loosers in general hehe
id like to think it was the first, but im not ruling any thing out yet

[mdwatts]

Originally posted by acid2000
I remember when MDWatts just used to post

google

Every single reply? :confused:

I'm just learning the same as everyone else.

Of course I did post G4L and still do for the threads that everyone else totally ignored. At least post something especially for the new members.

Now I've NEVER posted a question of my own here at LNO/JL in all my 25,000 posts, BUT I can imagine how some must feel if they post a question and after 12 hours or so, still they have yet to receive a response.

I figure a search result or suggestion is better than nothing at all.

Guess I care about others a little more than most. :(

[2damncommon]

Can any of you who have been using Linux for a while remember what it was like reading the man pages at first?
They make no sense what so ever to someone new to Linux.
Hello Any.
The man pages make no sense to anyone.
Consider them more like (a very terse) reference than a howto.
The things I check for in a man page are options, examples, maybe it will touch on your question, and the "see also" at the end may point you to another useful command. You can use "/" to enter a word to search for rather that reading a whole 15 page man page.
You are right. I, also, am often left scratching my head after reading the man page. Then I head to Google to see if I can find something to make it clearer. The man page usually has the information, it just isnt "explained".

[mdwatts]

Originally posted by 2damncommon
Hello Any.
The man pages make no sense to anyone.
Consider them more like (a very terse) reference than a howto.
The things I check for in a man page are options, examples, maybe it will touch on your question, and the "see also" at the end may point you to another useful command. You can use "/" to enter a word to search for rather that reading a whole 15 page man page.
You are right. I, also, am often left scratching my head after reading the man page. Then I head to Google to see if I can find something to make it clearer. The man page usually has the information, it just isnt "explained".

Exactly...

You don't have to stop at the manpages, but at least they give you somewhere to start.

[yinrunning]

I agree. man pages made no sense to me in the first months of RedHatness and left me cussing and screaming for hours afterwards. I have noticed a change over the last couple weeks, but i think it's cyclical. They come in with nothing, and after a few weeks they start asking questions that are more appropriate: "Hey, I looked at the man page and the faq, but is there more of a step-by-step somewhere I missed?" That sort of thing I can respect. Right off the bat, they usually need a point towards the good places to look. This is often accompanied by a swat on the nose about not asking others to do work for you. That's part of the learning curve, though. If they get all uptight about it and think we're being a-holes... Go finda nother forum!! It's a free country (mine, anyway! :D), and a free speech forum!

Also, about us "intermediate" types posting answers. I post questions all the time, and many of them are probably poorly formed. However, I never post unless I've been haggling and searching for at least half a day. And if anyone has an issue I think I know something about, I'll always post at least a stab. Even if an "old-timer" gets on the thread and says, "Hey, you're on crack. That's totally wrong.", now the guy who posted the question and I both know, right? And that's the whole point. In a couple of months, the people we're rtfm-ing now will be telling other people where to find faq's.

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by mdwatts
Exactly...
You don't have to stop at the manpages, but at least they give you somewhere to start.

I don't think I have told someone to read the man, if I did, it was an obvious experienced person. I have never failed, using google with
'command howto' to find a useful page.

I can see why you never post a question of your own though, you have read every concievable problem ever had already! :p

hlrguy

Lets see, random select of /usr/bin = renice
http://kom.auc.dk/netfaq/cache/164.html
http://www.astro.rug.nl/HowTo/Jobcontrol/jobcontrol.html

[sharth]

I was being sarcastic about the name change :) Makes no real differance to me, Just had to rename the link in my bookmarks. Now what really bothers me is that there is no login page that i can bookmark so i automatically get logeed in... :)

Man pages work when they are the only resource you know of. Back when i started, I didn't know that tons of people had my problems, so I just struggled. Now, I can use the man pages fairly easily. especially tar's man page. If anyone asks, how do i create a atarred file, man tar has an example right in it. along with other stuffs

tar -cvvf foo.tar foo/
tar contents of folder foo in foo.tar

I dunno, I switched from red hat for one reason. Tux Racer crashed on me within the first day of running it :) Because i didn't know abuot crtl + alt + backspace, and i didn't realize crtl +alt + del, or crtl + alt + f?, i had to do a hard reboot. Then i centered in on debian. Not too many problems so far :)

neondog, i remember some win3.1 shareware and freeware. But i am too young for pure dos enviorments... *sniff* :D

[drummerboy195]

Now what really bothers me is that there is no login page that i can bookmark so i automatically get logeed in...
mozilla automatically logs me into every one of my forums. hmm?

[patman]

I don't think there's that much change in the types of questions or answers. I have been away from LNO for about two years now (somehow I had a life for a while??) and have recently come back full swing into linux and LNO (just before the name change) and the only big difference I've noticed are the names of the people on the board and seeing mdwatts is now a moderator :eek: ;)

There have always been very knowledgeable people here and very unexperienced. I remember my very first post which was just a post in the off-topic section on how I had become completely obsessed with linux. And I remember being afraid the someone like Craig might come in and pummel me for saying anything.

All in all this board still has a nice sense of community and I think it's bcause there are a lot of people who come in here both to learn and just share our common linux experiences (and occasionally just go bezerk in /dev/random). I personally am very greatful LNO (ahem... JL) is still here.

[BigFatJoe]

Originally posted by drummerboy195
mozilla automatically logs me into every one of my forums. hmm?

it doesn't log you in. if you dont have to login, its only that a cookie has remained in your cache from the last session. cookies can be sometimes useful, but you should put restriction on them, or watch em once in a while, since it can be in many ways a big security hazard. of course, I'm just paranoid. :D

[yinrunning]

The only thing that worries me about the name change is that now when we abbreviate it, it has a big butt and dates Ben Affleck. :D

[JohnT]

I gave an excellent tutorial link to someone the other day with the answer they sought in the header and first paragraph. Their reply was to thank me for the link, but that was not what they needed. Fine with me.Two post down someone cut n pasted the same paragraph (from my link) and his reply was a "Thank you, that's just what I was looking for". He had not even bothered to go to the page. Not fine with me.:rolleyes:

[yinrunning]

Wasn't that the one with 4/5 pages on dual-booting XP and RH? And dude's still booting from floppy? Cuz that thread is annoying me.

[sharth]

Originally posted by BigFatJoe
it doesn't log you in. if you dont have to login, its only that a cookie has remained in your cache from the last session. cookies can be sometimes useful, but you should put restriction on them, or watch em once in a while, since it can be in many ways a big security hazard. of course, I'm just paranoid. :D I have my cookies cleared at the end of every session. But i do have my password set up with phoenix's password manager. so it's not too bad :)

[JohnT]

Originally posted by yinrunning
The only thing that worries me about the name change is that now when we abbreviate it, it has a big butt and dates Ben Affleck. :D


Hey, let's not get serious here.




(good one):p

[JohnT]

Originally posted by yinrunning
Wasn't that the one with 4/5 pages on dual-booting XP and RH? And dude's still booting from floppy? Cuz that thread is annoying me.

No there was another, but thanks a lot I'd just about forgotten that one. If ever I wanted to take someone on a canoe ride in the back-woods of Georgia .................................................. ..:D

[yinrunning]

heh.

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by JohnT
I gave an excellent tutorial link to someone the other day with the answer they sought in the header and first paragraph. Their reply was to thank me for the link, but that was not what they needed. Fine with me.Two post down someone cut n pasted the same paragraph (from my link) and his reply was a "Thank you, that's just what I was looking for". He had not even bothered to go to the page. Not fine with me.:rolleyes:

I have seen that a number of times in threads. I know the answer is in my suggestion/link, but if the thread owner can't even read the posts completely the first time, I am done with a thread.

In his defense, maybe you remind him of an intimidating grandfather and just wants to get away. You are a scary looking dude.:D

hlrguy

[JohnT]

Five pages away? Bah!! scrumbuckets, I say.:p :p

[BigFatJoe]

Originally posted by JohnT
I gave an excellent tutorial link to someone the other day with the answer they sought in the header and first paragraph. Their reply was to thank me for the link, but that was not what they needed. Fine with me.Two post down someone cut n pasted the same paragraph (from my link) and his reply was a "Thank you, that's just what I was looking for". He had not even bothered to go to the page. Not fine with me.:rolleyes:

LMAO. ROFL. :p

oh that gave me a good laugh...but it makes me sad, since you make it sound like its true. :(

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by JohnT
If ever I wanted to take someone on a canoe ride in the back-woods of Georgia .................................................. ..:D

Keep it clean John or else this forum wil lose it's PC-13 rating. :cool:

hlrguy

[JohnT]

Originally posted by hlrguy
Keep it clean John or else this forum wil lose it's PC-13 rating. :cool:

hlrguy

What could be more acommodating than a nice tour of the countryside?
(Should have seen it before it was edited. That kind of stuff gives me the slow-burn.)

[JohnT]

Originally posted by BigFatJoe
LMAO. ROFL. :p

oh that gave me a good laugh...but it makes me sad, since you make it sound like its true. :(


The sad part is, it is true. That was probably one of the worst, but there are others.:D

[linux12414]

Originally posted by JohnT
I think it can be a perception as your level matures. Your experiencing something shared by all, I believe. It's a hump you get over. I find myself passing over some posts due to the inability, it seems, of the poster to do the simplest look-up.

Worse yet, some posters cannot form a cohesive, understandable question.

Lots of times I bypass things since I cannot figure out WTF they want.

If non-English-speaking folks can write coherently, why can't native-born people???
:confused:

[linux12414]

Originally posted by emetib
agree, i replied to a guy for a change to his prompt. i found the answer in the man pages in less than 5 minutes.

when i do ask a question, i'll always respond at the end with a thank you. doesn't seem like most people know what that is now days.

by the way johnt. thanks for the input on closing ports.

I agree. Manners seem to have gone on hiatus, too.

And thank you, emetib, for helping me out with my sound debacle.