why is linux so... fill in the blanks

[ozzythaman]

Hi,
i've been using computers since 1990, i've USED all sorts of operating systems, and i like linux very much. I'm working on a project where i need lots of computers with mysql installed...
NOW... 1 hour ago I finished downloading mandrake 9 and installed it..
I really like linux and all that but you guys really really REALLY need to improve useability of linux..

here's the thing;

I know C/C++ very good,
I know PHP veery good,
I know Mysql VEERY good,
I'm very familiar with socket programming,
I know tcp/ip fairly good and its programs very good.
I know that reiserFS is faster than ext2 and ext3 on regular files and much faster on small files.
I know what a journaling filesystem is,
I know many, many, many aspects of linux in theory.
(from runlevels to passwordshadowing to configuration of apache to programming with gcc, to how lilo and fstab works to shellprogramming, to the existence of linuxconf, to .. you name it)
they are all things i've done in the past....

I EVEN KNOW THAT LINUX IS BETTER THAN FREEBSD WHEN IT COMES TO THREADING! (i also know what the effects of not having linuxthreads in freebsd can be!)

THE LIST IS ENDLESS, NOW MY DEAR FELLOWS, MY PROBLEM IS THE FOLLOWING;

in the installation program of mandrake, i am releaved when i see the database-package thing option and the explaination "popular databases.... postgresql and mysql...blablabla"
and in the individual package select window, i am surprised that there is no mysql option there...

when there's no mysql...
and when i cant find my graphics card in the xfree setup....
and the only rpm-program i know how to use is mandrake's which is in graphical mode....
and I cant manage to set up the network (i have a cablemodem connected to a xp machine that i should be able to connect to the internet through, but i cant even connect to THAT machine)

and i cant remember where the documents are...
and when the only text mode editors i manage to use are joe & pico WHICH ARE NOT INSTALLED...(in vi and emacs, the only thing i ever manage to do after opening a file, is to quit the program)

I REALISE THAT THIS IS THE REASON WHY WINDOWS IS MUCH MORE POPULAR AMONG SINGLE USERS...

These installation programs give you the impression of "this is a piece of cake", they seem to install what you need, they GIVE YOU ONLY ONE CHANCE to install your windows otherwise you're screwed, because they dont say how to configure those things afterwards, they let you provide a root password, they TRY to configure the network, everything seems smooth and good and helpful... you reboot
and

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM!!!!

you're on your own...
the network and xfree doesn't work, you dont know how to manage the rpms and you have no mysql..........

NOW WHATTAPHACK AM I GOING TO DO NOW??
I am supposed to have 10 years of experience, and i cant even imaging how it would be for a complete beginner!

the HELP command has never given me a clue (like the last 50 times i used it during the past 5 years) about what i should do next...
this is so tiring and the complaints are endless, but the help system really, REALLY, REALLY, AND I MEAN REAAAALLLYYYYY SUGGKS! THERE IS NO GODDAMN HELP

(and i dont count the manuals, even if i had found them, because in order to read them you need to use a text editor which i dont know.... so they cant be classified as HELP for me, they are only DOCUMENTATION for me... documentation i dont know how to access)

thank you very much for your time,
i'm waiting for comments

O Darcan

[sporkit]

word.

ive been working with computer for a long time too. however, doing even small things with linux can be a chore. i mean why do i have to remember such a crazy command just to unzip a file?!

[bigrigdriver]

Don't tell me. Let me guess. You' ve used MSWindo$e. Well, it's time to come up to a real MULTI-TASKING OPERATING SYSTEM. Now. The gist of your post that I get is this, you want MSwinders, but not by the same name. Forget it! This is Linux, a Unix compatible operating system. You are REQUIRED to learn how to do things, such as install programs, read the READMEs, read the INSTALLs. The directory tree is not the same as in windo$e; you will have to learn the tree (however, once you are familiar with it, you won't be able to reason out why microsucks does their's the way the way they do; furthermore, you won't want to go back). So, you know many, many, many aspects of linux IN THEORY. All well and good. Now, it's time to learn (know) many, many, many aspects of linux IN PRACTICE. Quitcher*****in'. If learning how to use the system (whether gui or command-line, but especially command-line while you watch what happens in the gui) is not your cup of tea, go back to windows. This is not windows! You have more power at your fingertips in Linux than you ever had in windoze. Chill. Take the time to learn. Ask cool, calm questions. Everyone of us was a newbie at one time or another. We,ve taken the time to learn, we love to help others to learn, we are thankful for those who take the time to help us with our problems, but we take exception to impatient folks with attitudes. Slow down. THIS IS NOT WINDOWS. It is another operating system, with strengths you can't imagine, unless and until you take the time to learn. All of us who come to this board do so for two reasons: #1 to learn; #2 to help others. Be cool, dude.

[cybergal]

Why is Linux so WONDERFUL?

[retoon]

You know what, I just thought of this now. If a person had never used a computer in their life, and decided that the only thing that they wanted to do with it was to type papers, maybe use a spead sheet, get online, and send emails, Linux would be the most logical OS for them. This is why. For my example I will use the ever so popular Red Hat 8.0 to represent linux. The installation is just as easy, if not easier then Windows. Once the OS is installed, Windows comes stock with absolutely nothing, where as Red Hat comes with open office. This has the word processing and spread sheet function fot them. Windows would require that you go out and purchase MS Office and install it seperately. If connecting through dsl, just hook up the hardware, and run the internet configuration wizard. It sets it up for you. You're online in no time. Windows requires that you either install the providers proprietary software to set it up, or configure your network connections. The gui is more organized then in windows (gnome or kde, gnome by default). Want to go on the internet, go to internet option in the gnome menu. Plus, Linux comes with everything you need to get going. Graphics software, openoffice, multiple web browsers, shiny buttons, and a better grasp on the concept of computer systems. Its the reason I have my little sister running linux on her machine. She is in love with it, and doesn't play around with it enough to want to install more software. She is happy with her openoffice, her cdplayer, the gimp, all of the screen savers, the themes, the wallpapers, the speed, the reliability (hasn't shut the machine down once in like a month now), and the games. Shes thirteen and is an end user, hasn't had anything but compliments for it so far.

[[Mystik_Cool]]

I often wonder : if a child learns with linux since the beginning. What would be his point of vue ? I don't know but... I think : the earlier you start, the easiest it will be. Most of all, if you never used any Windows system... maybe linux would seem really simple and logic :)

It's easier to learn how to swim in a calm swimming pool with lifeguards around you if you learnt before how to swim in the ocean because your sailing ship met a typhoon... than the opposite !

[ozzythaman]

thank you bigrigdriver,
I have used macintosh computers, computers with dos, windows 3.1, 95, 98, NT4, 2000, XP along with shell accounts and own installations of linux, in my childhood there was no really usable linux, i had dos and i learned everything there was about it..

When it comes to "Don't tell me. Let me guess. You' ve used MSWindo$e.", yes i've used windows and probably will do so as my regular desktop os, and you are telling me you haven't? i know you have, and probably still are.

about my *****ing about linux,
It's nice to see you beeing so devoted to linux, but you have obviously not matured enough to look at linux objectively.
There are alternatives to linux as well, like FreeBSD, and if you look at how that os is built up and works, you would realise that linux isn't that simple,

and i dont mind memorizing commands, but i dont know which ones to start memorizing with and every time i sit down by a different distribution's linux, many commands and procedures are now different..

oh and thank you for telling me what linux is and that it isn't windows, it is the first time i've been told that by someone who uses the phrase "windoze" very 3rd line.

now that it's over with, the problem still exists, the linux help system is non-existant for many users and they never help you in how to begin using linux, and if they do: you dont know where to find them... AND one of the thing i really dont like is that linux is very inconsistent from distribution to distribution.
AND linux may have lots of programs coming with it, but this is also a drawback, you get gazillions of small programs that you dont know what they are what they may be used for... linux is not very clean, i've considered installing the linuxfromscratch distro but it's installation is hard..

linux is still very good i think, but you know, i remember linux in 1994 and i liked it very much, it was much more simpler..i will try freebsd5 again now, they seem to have fixed the threading problems..

[polly nucleotic]

Originally posted by ozzythaman

and i dont mind memorizing commands, but i dont know which ones to start memorizing with and every time i sit down by a different distribution's linux, many commands and procedures are now different..

[/B]

Hi ozzy..

Since everyone here is too busy flaming you to help, I thought I might step in.

First of all, I would recommend printing out a list of vi commands. It's really quite simple to use, although since it's the only editor I've ever used on linux, I'm not sure how it compares to others. AFAIK, it's just a matter of command syntax etc. press 'esc' to enter commands, 'i' to insert text. In command mode, 'x' to delete one letter, 'dw' to delete one word, 'dd' to delete one line. ':w' to save, ':q' to quit (which you said you already knew) and ':wq' to save and quit. These should get you started.

Man pages are a little confusing. Usually you can randomly guess and get the right one. For example:

$ man apache

that ones pretty obvious.

Most of the commands throughout the distro's are pretty standard, IMHO. I've noticed a few discrepancies between 'locate', 'whereis' etc. but that's quite minor. Configurations are far more varied, and yes, figuring out where everything is can be a pain.

Another thing with linux is that it is somewhat particular about hardware. I happened to be pretty lucky since my hardware is about 2 years old, save my graphics card which _did_ take some work to get running properly under Debian.

If you need help and didn't come here solely to complain, by all means ask. I get the feeling you _want_ to use linux but you feel a little overwhelmed. I'm sure a lot of people thought they were too smart to not figure out an OS at one point in their life. Don't let linux insult you. :p

[bwkaz]

The point of Linux documentation is not to tell you exactly what to do next.

The point of Linux documentation is to tell you how to do everything, and let you decide what you have to do next.

On your installation issues (at least one of them), Mandrake's installer, in the "show all packages" screen, doesn't actually show all packages unless you select "flat view" or whatever it is. It's one of the buttons there.

I don't know why they did it this way, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

[fancypiper]

:confused: I had no trouble picking out and installing mysql (and de-selecting the other sql) in Mandrake.

For editing, try the editor in Midnight Commander (command mc) or install nano, the GNU clone of pico.

# Mandrake links
Mandrake home page (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/)
Mandrake Users (http://www.mandrakeuser.org/) website
Easy software management: Red Carpet (http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_red_carpet/)
Maximum RPM (http://www.rpm.org/max-rpm/)
rpmfind (http://rpmfind.net/)

I find mandrake lacks some common command line tools that other distros have.

[warren612001]

Hi I also have used computers for a long time before they had harddrives in them. But when windows 95 came out I hated it and started looking for something different. Then I found linux. at that time Linux didn't have all the help that they have now ( linuxnewbie.org and the manuals ). But to make a long story short I finely made it past the learning curve. and now I don't have windows on any of my computers. :D Now to your Problem when you type ( man bash; man apache; etc. ) you will get a manual on that subject. ( By the way if you had bought your distro instead of downloading for free you would have gotten a book that would helped you through getting started. ) I don't understand why they don't give that for free also. HARD TO GET GOOD FREE STUFF NOW A DAYS :D If you have any problems that you can't work out just come back and ask. This is also free.

[Helper_Monkey]

If you want us to help you with the gui problem, you need to let us know a little bit about your hardware (cpu speed, video card, ect.).

and i dont mind memorizing commands, but i dont know which ones to start memorizing with and every time i sit down by a different distribution's linux, many commands and procedures are now different..

This is not really true. For some programs, different distros use different programs. Where you are right now(the command line) everything that you need to do will basically the same no matter what distro you are using.

linux is not very clean,
I found this to be the complete opposite, linux is very organizied, windows is not. Once you understand the organization of linux it is very easy.

Of course you do not understand it yet because you haven't really used it yet. When you were new to windows, you start out knowing where every file was.


i remember linux in 1994 and i liked it very much, it was much more simpler.

You used linux in 94? Did you install it? Was X even ported to it yet? I would think you would be much more comfortable with the commands for the command line if you used it back then, since basically everything was done from the command line then.

If you actually want help, and not just a place to rant, then you have come to the right place. We can help you get your system to be configured the way you want it, but you have to help us (help us to help you). If you want real help, post in a question forum.

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by ozzythaman
When it comes to "Don't tell me. Let me guess. You' ve used MSWindo$e.", yes i've used windows and probably will do so as my regular desktop os, and you are telling me you haven't? i know you have, and probably still are.

No, some of us have NEVER been blessed with windows and NEVER want to be. That aside. Let's tackle a few things.

here and on google 'rpm howto' search. This is the command line rpm management tool. You don't have to use the GUI tool, it is to make things easier for new people.

mysql is very likley installed, but it won't have a link in the start menu. You probably downloaded or bought the personal version. To get full server documentation and help, the professional version is what you want. You don't need it, but it has MUCH more help for the server side.

Here and on google, 'mysql howto'

video card, select generic SVGA 16 bit color. Then, search for the driver.

Network, look at the documentation CD or Mandrake.com for Network congfig. It is very easy. Until you have fully read and explored the Mandrake documentation CD, you have nothing to complain about. It starts from the basics on 'how a mouse works' through editing your HTML system defaults in Konqueror through burning a CD. I think I will add/change my sig to something like...

'Were you a Windows expert the first time you look at Windows for the first time or did it take some time...'

Why pico is being dropped is a mystery, however, I have always been a vi man cause, once you learn it, it is so friggin powerful....

One thing at a time. And you do have an option. Go back to Windows for now and shell out the $s for a commercial database and everything else you need. I am not being facetious or sarcastic, just a suggestion. Or, work through and learn Linux, allow for a little learning curve at least and everyone here will continue to help you.

hlrguy

[hlrguy]

Oops, forgot,

Why is Linux so Fantastic.

Literally, I find it an absolute joy to work in/with.

hlrguy

[CMonster]

i mean why do i have to remember such a crazy command just to unzip a file?!

KDE >right-click>Extract Here

[Penrich]

I was guilty of participating in one of these "why does linux have to be so hard" threads back when I started. I've seen several more since then.

ozzythaman - this has been done before. All you gain from this is a chance to vent your frustration. This kind of post will get met with disdain and scorn. And then you will get angry, and get turned off linux...

There are aspects of linux that need working on, but we are not necessarily the people to be telling (hey, we are newbies, not developers). The developers at Red Hat, Mandrake, Debian, SuSE etc are working on your issues, I'm sure. However, there are also fixes for you problems, that can be worked through by the good people here at LNO. Post questions, and you will get help. Post rants and you will get flamed.

[Naki]

For a tutorial on Vi type the command "vimtutor" , one thing they don't mention is that you can navigate the document with the arrow keys as well as the h,j,k,l keys. It is a good idea to learn Vi because, due to its small size it it usually included on the boot disk and that's what you'll have to work with if you have to edit a file to recover a system.

[fancypiper]

Participating in the Bugzilla (http://www.bugzilla.org/) with the developers of programs is a neat way to actually accomplish desired changes in Linux.

[fancypiper]

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/gentoo/images/vicheat-final.png

[ozzythaman]

thank you all for participating in the discussion.
Please note that my intention was not to ask any question, but to point out some drawbacks of linux for the beginner-people, and to get some response from you, as i wonder if people are aware of these.

now that i've read my post lately, i realise that i make linux seem harder than i think it is in reality.

During my time with linux, i think that i've probably been the victim of my own misfortune, here's the math;
1: i've never had a printer
2: i have only one computer
3: my internet in linux has never been working when i've needed internet the most (not during my last installation but during the last few years)
and if i dont have a printer or any book and i have only one computer with one display.. i would need to reboot into windows whenever i need help with something (logically).. this has turned me off many times and after a few times you get bored...
so you can blame my frustration with linux on a rough childhood..

no doubt that if you spend enough time you can learn anything, and to the trained eye, linux isn't that complex. But i think some distributions don't look at their installations with the eyes of a beginner, and even if they do they dont look past the installation.
I really know how to use linux for the tasks i do every day and some more, and this was the first time i've attempted installing it since many years.. and the installation and configuration is still not as painless as i've hoped for (or as mandrake gives the impression to be).

you know what would be really useful and solve all this - an agent or something that follows you in the shell, gives tips, info on standard procedures, general info, help as you need it and so on.. that would be useful..

oh and i've learned :q! and :wq from the bsd manual, seems you cant escape somethings, might just as well stop resisting..

thanx..

oz