The new hi-tech culture

[carrja99]

My friend calls me up. He asks me if I will be able to download and burn him the latest live Phish album. Sure thing I reply. Down the hall, another student pops an SVCD of the LOTR2 DVD screener, in almost perfect dvd quality, in his dvd player and sits back and enjoys. Still, in another room, someone spends hours downloading vintage NES roms to relive the "good ol' days". Someone else is on irc begging for DC isos. What is all this about?

Some may scream piracy... and by all rights it is. After all, I know several people who have a large volume of PC games and never even paid for one. People with entire goodsets of roms. People who have downloaded so many mp3s that they're trying to save up for a 200 GIG hard drive to store them on. Welcome to the new sub-culture.

It seems more and more that, even stretching back to the early days of USENET, a sub culture is rapidly emerging that is obsessed with "collecting" various types of data "files." Some download South Park Episodes. Some collect as many mp3s as they can. Some will go as far as download 800mb SVCDs on 28.8k dialup. And some may even stay up into the late hours of the morning as they search for thier downloads. And the RIAA and several other corporate groups are NOT happy.

But are they ignoring something? It is doubtful that all these college students would go right into a music store and steal albums, take games off the shelves and not pay for them, etc. But in cyberspace, there is no such thing as physical matter, everything is just really 1s and 0s. So, to them there is nothing wrong with downloading that mp3 and besides... why go to the store and buy it when you can get it for free (in the same amount of time or less, for broadband users)?

Of course, this is nothing new, but I'd be interested in everyone looking at the concept in a much deeper level. Does the trend represent a change in social/psychological contexts or something else? Let me know!

[emetib]

for the mp3's, i have like 3 on my box. i'll take a copy if someone gives me one, but i have a nice collection of cd's now. so if i like it i'll go out and buy it to add to my collection.

for games, don't play.

for o/s's, if someone needs a copy of my w2k, i don't have a problem with it. for linux, if i like what i've downloaded and have it installed for more than 3 mo., then i'll go buy the next release. if someone wants a copy, no problem.

[glyph]

Originally posted by carrja99


Of course, this is nothing new, but I'd be interested in everyone looking at the concept in a much deeper level. Does the trend represent a change in social/psychological contexts or something else? Let me know!

i think technology has made this kind of stuff easier, but it's nothing new. kids are always strapped for cash in their early years, looking to amuse themselves in whatever way they can, morals and rules be damned. of course, you'll always have the thieves.

i think the connected-ness that the internet gives us is revolutionary in so many aspects, that we'll be sorting it out for some time.

as for these copyright intellectual ownership groups go, they know they are walking the line too; that if they push their issues too hard, they may make their product (copyright) undesirable and make open source more attractive. these groups are gonna have to realize that there are alternatives now to their control and as long as they are percieved as greedy and self serving, people will gravitate towards the alternatives. the same goes with the media groups, and publishing, ect.

what's more, nations like america will have to step in line with the global community as they too are susceptible to obsolecense.

[Can O' Beans]

When I first got DSL, I was downloading EVERYTHING. I guess it wasn't about getting something for free so I could use it, it was more of a collection, mostly of stuff I have NEVER used. I have CDs full of stuff I've never even installed :rolleyes:, many $5000+ programs. Mainly, just because I could.

Now, the only thing I really download are MP3s to sample bands I've never heard of (if I like them, I will buy the CD). Sometimes I'll download a cracked version of a game to check out (most of the demos just suck).

Windows? Well, I haven't paid for that in over 10 years, and won't start any time soon.

[glyph]

i suppose we could look back to the time when the publishers, the media, and the like, controlled what we said, read, listened to, and watched thru our mass media, and realize that copyright infringment is peanuts compared to the liberation of thoughts and ideas that these groups can no longer suppress or control thanks to the internet. i think there's more at stake here than small scale theft, it's the medium of communication in the hands of the masses that have these elitists feeling cheated.

[Hena]

I think this emphases the problem in modern society. We do things, because we can do them. Now with internet and digitalization of many things, what we can do has been raised by a great deal. However our "moral" hasn't raised by same amount. Many times we still do what we can, if we think that we can't be caugth from it.

Now when napster came, i started to download music as well. But i also started to buy it. I used napster to check what i liked and what i didn't. And bought those things from store that i could. But i also used it to get music, that i cannot buy from store (eg. anime soundtracks and music from asia). I would buy them form stores, but since they can't/won't (eg. isnt cost effective).

We still have much to grow morally compared to our techical abilities. However it is questionable will we. On the other hand music industry is reacting to this as well. Some of the reactions are resticting our right of what we could do. Most of these are hitting the very area where it will restrict the illegal things. Its a side effect (i'm not taking sides who thinks that its good or bad, just making an observation) it rescticts the rights side as well. Rights were given in though of what should/could be right. Technology has now given as the ability to misuse it and we have.

Have misused it because we can or because we think that music/movies are too expensive? More reasons? That is also to think, are they too expnsive, would lower prices make us move back to stores. Also would making things more available globally, instead of zoning the globe to market areas help? Morality is good to preach, but you must also be prepared to do yourself as well.

Well i gotta do something, so i end this considering here.

[The Elf]

The new hi-tech culture is not so new IMHO.


Having been on BBS since the late 80's, all this existed even back in those days. Of course, there wasn't the svcds and the mp3's .. One of the BBS I used to frequent in the early - mid 90's had a 10 disc changer full of porn cds. Warez was big as well. Certainly the size of the files being collected has increased over the years, but the idea itself isn't new -- and the sizes will continue on into the future as well. In 10 years when your buddy has a Terrabyte of the olson twin's interactive porn, someone will think it's a new hi-tech culture emerging as well.

[dev/brain]

I dont know about bbs....I was still a mac boy at that stage :).

But I do know a little about morality.....And if record companies made their albums cheaper...would i buy them. No.

I dont steal things from the internet, nor do i pirate them, I copy them. Nobody gets hurt. Theres no exchange of anything....Just copies of data.

If my behaviour is morally wrong, then how? Because i am depriving artists of income? Im not. I wouldnt buy it anyway; although i might purchase more software (like one thing a year...maybe), i doubt it.

So really, the only moral debate id have is if i wouldnt buy something simply because I could dl it. Which i wouldnt do. I cant afford any of the things i have, and i dont assign a high enough value to alot of it to warrant even taking up space on my HD, let alone to waste what precious little money I do have.

[Hena]

I'm intrested. Why do you download something then?

[truls]

Piracy is theft, pure and simple. It's illegal, and we know it. The "I wouldn't have bought it anyways" doesn't cut it. It's not the worst of crimes, and I don't believe the record industry is getting ruined in any way, but downloading copyrighted material is illegal.

I'm sort of puzzled by the huge amounts of people who are protesting the closing down of Kazaa and Napster, when we all knew exactly what they are used for. I'd say that 99% of what is downloaded with kazaa is copyrighted material, and as such there is no way I can defend kazaa as a "keep the information free" cause. The few legal uses of these programs can hardly defend the massive amounts of pirated stuff that are spread by them.

It's not that I'm any kind of saint here. I've downloaded my share of mp3's and divx movies, but if I was busted doing this I would be well aware that I would face some steep fines.

[Hena]

But does it matter if i download some copyrighted material. Try it out. Found that i like it and buy from store. Is there still something wrong with downloading? Also, if i download something that i cannot get in here? There are things that i don't find wrong. I do know its illegal, but law and right are not the same thing (as i found out that people sometimes think) :).

[truls]

When I used Napster to download mp3's I also bought more cd's than usual. Same as you, I downloaded stuff - listened to it - and bought the ones I really liked. I'm not feeling guilty about that, but it's still illegal. Your point on differentiating illegal from wrong is good though, but you still risk getting fined/inprisoned from doing something illegal even though we all don't consider it wrong.

It's not that people download stuff that bothers me, I think the record and film companies make out like crazy anyhow. The thing that bothers me is how people use "freedom of information" to support Kazaa and Napster. And also how people make a big rucket when someone gets fined for downloading warez.

[carrja99]

I'm not really saying "new" as very recent, but something new that has developed as humans gained the capacity to connect to each other electronically. In the old days, a friend would record a copy of a tape for his friends. Now he burns mp3s onto audio format on CDs.

But my main emphasis, what implications of this new sub-culture obsessed with downloading any files they can find have for society and the economy itself? I ill not lie, once I got to college I got T1 and must've downloaded so many albums, there are still some I havent listened to. And yet, I have heard so many bands previously unheard thanks to mp3s, and have went to concerts by these bands.

Seriously, I think the RIAA made a BIG mistake trying to fight mp3 trading. An ideal emphasis would be to create thier own network in which people pay a monthly subscription, and even entice people to join by offering EXCLUSIVE releases by top band on the network. Of course,free networks will always exist, so this would in turn cause artists to work harder promoting themselves and going on tour. Who knows? Perhaps this is better. The artist would be in top condition and probably come up with more fresh material, rather than make millions off one album and buy a mansion and live the rest of thier lives in drugs and alcohol.

Bah... but I have strayed from my original statement. The internet has connected individuals in a way that was previously non-existant. One could say that the movies, mp3s, games, and warez reflect a sharing of experiences amongst people. Just a thought.

[ferreter]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=technology

Note the Windows reference at the bottom of the page :)

I think that what we need to worry about is the loss of freedoms and rights when it comes to said technologies. I think its funny that with the proliferation of distributed networking made easy (Napster, Kazaa, etc...) that all of a sudden industries feel threated when these networks and illegal copying of data has had a long history in IRC and BBSes. I also find it amusing that such an outdated technology such as CDs are so friggin expensive, you have to wonder if the loss of sales by the music industry is a result of the price spikes in a time of economic slowdown or a few nerds and college kids downloading songs that they would have not either been able to afford or simply wouldn't buy anyways. The music industry had a fit when cassettes came out as well and obviously they haven't been run into the ground because of it. The answer to their issues (of being money mongering pricks) can be better resolved by going with the technological change rather than against it. I mean how long did it take them to come up with any form of online digital music sales?

All in all, I say that the times are not in any more of a movement of change technologically as technology hasn't slowed in its movement and old fasioned minds are still trying to come to grips with it.

[The Elf]

Originally posted by carrja99
I'm not really saying "new" as very recent, but something new that has developed as humans gained the capacity to connect to each other electronically. In the old days, a friend would record a copy of a tape for his friends. Now he burns mp3s onto audio format on CDs.


My bad, I read new and thought you meant fairly recent. So, what's with this new fighting with guns thing? I mean, new as in developed as humans gained the capacity to blast each other away with gun powder driven hunks of metal. How is this going to change things?

[carrja99]

Blah... my point is still being missed! The whole ideal is really coming down to the human compulsion to contiueously download and backup/perserve various types of data files. I'm not really trying to make a statement about piracy, but rather the underlying factor of people constantly getting on the internet at night and downloading as much as they can before they go to bed (or people like me, who just queue up whole newsgroups or ftps and sort it out later).

Like I said, some will download mp3s, then get board and begin downloading various roms and getting into the emulation scene, or perhaps they become a regular of Deviantart.com and download all kinds of artwork (and contribute), or even do what I did... download every single Linux distro availble in iso format on the web. It is however doubtful I will ever install Evil Entity Linux or Penut Linux, but the idea of having them in case I do gives me peace of mind!

[ferreter]

I would like to say it is the thirst for information which drives people to own more and more digital medium but that's too romantic. Perhap's its just the underlying notion of greed which and that fact that the Internet has provided the medium to fufill our greed that people download information in ever increasing numbers?

BTW: I've got a ton of Linux CD's (including evil entity, which I can't get installed) and my reasoning is simple curiosity and possible usefulness of having the distros at hand.

[mocnicom]

I have over 1200 ebooks :)

[Hena]

/dev/brain can you tell, why do yo download stuff from web then? I'm truly intrested what makes you do it, if it's not the price nor the intrest of the material itself?

And to bbs/irc. That wasn't as wide spread as napster/kazaa etc. With www speading the info it is spread much farther. Sure that still happens in irc but, the volume that is moving is far less. Important point is that if all sharing could get rid of, criminal markets would probably start booming. People still would want the stuff at much lower prices, which would help the organized crime to make pirated copies of movies/music. I think that thats more important to stop than the sharing. But govements doesn't seem to want to co-operate in order to stop it. There are various reasons, but it shouldn't be that hard within "western countries".

[glyph]

Originally posted by carrja99
Blah... my point is still being missed! The whole ideal is really coming down to the human compulsion to contiueously download and backup/perserve various types of data files. I'm not really trying to make a statement about piracy, but rather the underlying factor of people constantly getting on the internet at night and downloading as much as they can before they go to bed (or people like me, who just queue up whole newsgroups or ftps and sort it out later).

i guess they do it because it might not be there to download in the future. they do it for the same reasons people have photo albums, librarys, chronicles, ect.
space is not an issue in the age of 80gig drives and recordable media, so why not if you have the means to preserve your interests? i suppose alot of stuff gets downloaded for off-line access too. people like to collect stuff, some are more *****ious than others.
i used to save alot of stuff just for the sake of doing so, but as time went on i became more selective on what it was i felt was of archival value. i think the hardest part is sorting it all out.;)

[sasKuatch]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I download mp3s and crack my games (even the ones I buy), because CD's are really inconvenient. The drive is loud, slow, breaks frequently (in my experience), and CD's get scratched and are bulky to carry. I prefer storing stuff on hard drive. I can play any game I want, any time, without having to swap CD's. I can play on the road, without taking up a bay that I could use for a battery.

I just don't like CD's. Practically very CD that I own is on my hard drive, and thankfully, I'm no longer handling those clumsy, vulnerable things.

[Lorithar]

Ummm ...


IRC ... even PRE napster and kazaa moved a HELL of a lot of files around... perhaps more files *after* the death of napster ... I will agree that pre-mass internet use IRC was much leaner than it is now, but I can tell you that the data moved ... a LOT. Fidonet (helloooo dinosaurs) is STILL out there ... in fragments... and back in the mid-eighties I was a mail bridge for two areas (my phone line was local to two area codes) ... there were nights when my two way transfers between hubs ran up to 13 hours... and I had the 'cutting edge' 33,6 modems then... now ... relatively thats not a lot of mail ... but the mailer process we were using was pretty damn smart and could match files even when the filename was changed .... this made data transfers much smaller... and the tracking software had a db that was pretty impressive too ... I know for a fact that a LOT of software and music and image files moved through that mailsystem.

This file downloading/trading thing has been out there since the first public access to the arpanet was allowed.

[Icarus]

How long it's been around has nothing to do with what it's about. Why do people do it? Because they can? This has to be one of the poorest excuses ever. Yes, theivery has been around forever and is not going away soon. But the discussion at hand is why is it becoming more common? Does make it easier to break a law make it right to do? If you can kill someone and nobody will ever know...does that make it right?

Yes, murder is nothing compared to stealing (bits of 1s and 0s) but it is the same question...and an example of what is going on online. I know for a fact if people cound get away with murder, they would do it and not feel bad about it at all.

The problem with this 'digital exchange' is that it is not regulated, it can't be without everyone crying out 'invasion of privacy'. With these things becoming easier to do and more people doing it, it will become more common as more people discover this 'something for nothing' process.

It's not something that should be regulated by a government, but parents. I believe if the parents were a little more strict and tried to teach morals to their children, this would not be as much of a problem as it is. With more and more parents neglecting their children and useing TV and video games as babysitters, this problem will increase.

[The Elf]

Originally posted by mahdi

It's not something that should be regulated by a government, but parents. I believe if the parents were a little more strict and tried to teach morals to their children, this would not be as much of a problem as it is. With more and more parents neglecting their children and useing TV and video games as babysitters, this problem will increase.

Hey now, don't be dissing my mama!

[glyph]

i think the focus has been the downloading of copyrighted material. what about all the material that is free-use, copy-left, public domain, open source? the net is more than a commercial outlet for people who think their intellectual property should be protected. if they want to secure their intellectual goods, then it is their burden of responsibility to do so, not the entire internet community.
i think what is happening is people are shifting from a commercial based information community to a non-commercial, sharing type of community, (for obvious reasons) so no matter what measures these intellectual property owners take, they're becoming marginal. they need to set aside their political, economic, idealogical agendas and start producing what the world community wants if they want to remain viable.
i think these folks just want to turn the net into a heavily tax, licenced, bloated bureaucracy so they can once more dominate our ability to communicate and interact with one another. i think this is theivery also.

[glaston]

I'll bet that most of the people who are obsessed with collecting data, also have all their favorite movies still on home recorded VHS tapes, many probably have VHS tapes full of their favorite sitcoms. Now, they probably also have a crapload of DVD's. And never got rid of their Atari or Super NES systems/games.
Many probably collect live bootleg versions of their favorite bands. It's not just a computer, or computer data that they collect. It's everything!
Just like the old ladies who can't throw anything away so they save all this stuff that turns out to be worth something once they are too old to enjoy it.

I'm guilty of this on some level too. I have many Linux distro cd's. I have a media library that takes up 5 entire wall shelves filled with VHS tapes, DVD's, cd's, hi-8's, and digital-8's. I have a ****load of clothes that I never wear. Many shoes, hats. gloves, etc..
I keep all my old military gear around just in case, I have a few guns that I'm proud of, and many foriegn rounds of ammunition.

So it's a sub-culture of people obsessed with 'stuff'. If you ask me, I'd say it's another side effect of the media. It doesn't exist in this form with any of the older generations. Only the newer consumer indoctrinated generations. Who grew up on 'stuff'.
And this is exactly how they want it. When you're obsessed with 'stuff', you buy alot of it. And somebody banks on all the people who collect 'stuff'. Then those who bank, can buy more expensive 'stuff' than the rest. Which makes the less privileged work harder, so they can have the more expensive 'stuff'.
An economy based on the same principles of "peer pressure" is what we have now. At least in America anyway.
Couple that with the Advertising industry that works hard to come up with slick ways to sell people things they don't need, and it makes you wonder where we go from here?
As everyone 'collects stuff', the flesh of the world drips from it's ribcage.

My point is that the same people responsible for creating the media phenomena, are the same ones crying about the P2P problem.
They want to keep everyone obsessed with media, yet they cry when people use their own means to get it.
They want their cake and eat it too! Now they're finding out that it can't be that way. And they can't deal with it!