Will computer programmer survive?

[MMA]

Last monday in my Electronics lesson. we learnt about Neural Networks. My teacher said something that stuck to my mind.

When i finish my College (only a year left) i'm going to University and gonna studdy Computer Science.

My teacher said that Neural Networks learn on there own. Therefore in the future there won't be much use for Computer Programmers :D:D:D:D

So i'm thinking, would it be better for me to learn neural networks, and not computer science :D:D:D

I love both, computer and electronics.

I wouldn't mind doing two degree's :D

[wapcaplet]

I'm not an expert in the field of AI by any means, but I think you're pretty safe in a programming field for a while yet. Neural networks can learn, but keep in mind that programming is a very creative and sometimes artistic process - something AI has yet to master.

Of course, you can go to school to learn both! I think it'll be a while yet before Deep Blue or its descendants will be able to participate in an Obfuscated Code contest, though...

[MMA]

My theory is that, the rate at which technology is growing is exponentially. So i don't think its too long before they can make proper AI to replace some of humans jobs :D:D

[sasKuatch]

I'd say, study CS now, then look into AI after that as a hobby, and if it gets serious, you'll be prepared to swoop in and get a degree right away if necessary.

[MMA]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
I'd say, study CS now, then look into AI after that as a hobby, and if it gets serious, you'll be prepared to swoop in and get a degree right away if necessary.

Thats exactly what i was planning on doing actually :D:D:D

I've always found electronics interesting, but never wanted it to be a job :D:D

[sasKuatch]

Well, there you go:)

I'll soon be finishing my degree as well, hopefully.

[ViMan]

I wouldn't really worry about AI replacing programmers any time soon. I took a computer science course about AI and found out that AI was supposed to deliver for over a dozen years or so and really hasn't gotten past brute-force techniques. Neural nets are nice, but they are not applicable to everything. For some reason, I think both AI and Neural nets are kind of failures.

[carrja99]

AI will probably never replace human programmers. The reason being is that the creative process is part of mankind's individuality. Although no doubt there will be AI's that can write excellent code, there will always be something that only a human can devise and implement.

One must realize that, without a programmer, a computer is nothing but complext pieces of metal and silcon, and nothing else. Computers don't do human jobs... the humand that program them do.

[Icarus]

There might be a point when AI is good enough and creative enough to do Human tasks (painting and writing for example) but it will take decades after it's creation to reach this point. This is because you can not 'make' intellegence and creativity...it is learned and discovered through trial and error, which takes many many years.

You can create something to learn and grow intellectuly, but (like parenting) you need to control what it learns and how fast. most importantly, it needs to know the differance between right and wrong...unless you want to make a "SkyNET" :D

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by carrja99
AI will probably never replace human programmers. The reason being is that the creative process is part of mankind's individuality. Although no doubt there will be AI's that can write excellent code, there will always be something that only a human can devise and implement.

One must realize that, without a programmer, a computer is nothing but complext pieces of metal and silcon, and nothing else. Computers don't do human jobs... the humand that program them do.

You know, you're onto something. There might actually be programs developed that take plaintext instructions and turn them into programs.

Something like:
Begin Program1.

open the file "document"
search for every occurance of "car", "wheel", and "donkey"
...
display an input box with an "Ok" button centered in the screen and a label "Error"
...
if the file does not exist, exit.

This wouldn't even be that difficult. All it would take is some syntax and capitalized words, and little, if any, punctuation. Instead of "if ( i >= 5) printf("hello\n");", you could write if the variable i is greater than or equal to 5, print "hello". Of course, for somebody who knows C, this would be a complete waste of time, but some lazy MCSE would no doubt enjoy it.

Not exactly AI, more just pattern matching. Just imagine how bloated programs will be then!:) I bet it will take just as long to do everything; no improvement whatsoever, just as there never has been.

[Arjay]

I'm doing computing science at the moment and it my third year i can take an extra unit in AI, which i'm going to do cos it kinda interests me.

[DaveT47]

I know from experience that if you point 20 programmers at the same problem - you will get 20 different solutions which all accomplish the same thing. Some will be more creative than others, some will be very straight forward, and some will be really esoteric, however, each solution will work! That's the real beauty in programming. To key to becoming and "old" programmer like me is to continue to learn new technology, new languages, and new techniques! The ability to define the problem is the important part - actually creating the solution is the easiest part.

DaveT47

[carrja99]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
You know, you're onto something. There might actually be programs developed that take plaintext instructions and turn them into programs.

Something like:
Begin Program1.

open the file "document"
search for every occurance of "car", "wheel", and "donkey"
...
display an input box with an "Ok" button centered in the screen and a label "Error"
...
if the file does not exist, exit.

This wouldn't even be that difficult. All it would take is some syntax and capitalized words, and little, if any, punctuation. Instead of "if ( i >= 5) printf("hello\n");", you could write if the variable i is greater than or equal to 5, print "hello". Of course, for somebody who knows C, this would be a complete waste of time, but some lazy MCSE would no doubt enjoy it.

Not exactly AI, more just pattern matching. Just imagine how bloated programs will be then!:) I bet it will take just as long to do everything; no improvement whatsoever, just as there never has been.

Blah. There are so many complications that will arise with a plain text language. In order to be truely efficient, the coder would have to explicitly describe all objects/data of the "code", and would in turn be much more tedious that writing in C++ or some other language.

for(int i=0; i<10; i++) cout << i*i<<endl;

is more efficient than...

Starting from the decimal representation of 0, defined as an integer, print to the screen the squares of each integer less than 10.

Of course, the 2nd option would be ideal for people who dont want to learn a language, but still it would become horrendously complicated when much larger programs used to manage corporate databases and such.

Sides, why would we want to make it easier still for the 13 year old 1337 h4x0rs to create malicous programs to "fux up y0 b0x!"???

[MMA]

Wow, all those posts happened over night :D:D

[Silent Bob]

Originally posted by mahdi
There might be a point when AI is good enough and creative enough to do Human tasks (painting and writing for example) but it will take decades after it's creation to reach this point. This is because you can not 'make' intellegence and creativity...it is learned and discovered through trial and error, which takes many many years.

You can create something to learn and grow intellectuly, but (like parenting) you need to control what it learns and how fast. most importantly, it needs to know the differance between right and wrong...unless you want to make a "SkyNET" :D

I've always wondered what would happen if you were to create a neural net style adaptive evolving program and give it YEARS to learn things.

For example it takes a person about 3-4 years to be able to talk properly (as in have a reasonable conversation...). People never seem willing to give a computer program the same amount of time.

[MMA]

you should also consider that neural nets work much much faster then humans (well depends on what there learning). Therefore a task can be learnt very fast compared to a human.

[jetblackz]

Human programmers would walk around the office, flirt with the new chick receptionists, bang them so hard they couldn't walk straight for a week and still manage to convince the boss to keep them. I'd LOVE to see AI do that.

[carrja99]

Originally posted by jetblackz
Human programmers would walk around the office, flirt with the new chick receptionists, bang them so hard they couldn't walk straight for a week and still manage to convince the boss to keep them. I'd LOVE to see AI do that.

"Bang them so hard they couldn't walk straight for a week"?

Wow... what an egotistical person you are! :D

Do human programmers get worshipped by primative peoples too?

[ViMan]

If worst comes to worst and such a neural net or AI program does come into existence, I'm sure that the programmer responsible for it would have set a backdoor so we can take it down if it becomes too dangerous :)

[sharth]

what if the ai removes the backdoor, sorta of as in that k5 fiction stroy about prime intellect
http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by sharth
what if the ai removes the backdoor, sorta of as in that k5 fiction stroy about prime intellect
http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/

Yeah, AI is AI after all.

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by carrja99
Blah. There are so many complications that will arise with a plain text language. In order to be truely efficient, the coder would have to explicitly describe all objects/data of the "code", and would in turn be much more tedious that writing in C++ or some other language.

for(int i=0; i<10; i++) cout << i*i<<endl;

is more efficient than...

Starting from the decimal representation of 0, defined as an integer, print to the screen the squares of each integer less than 10.

Of course, the 2nd option would be ideal for people who dont want to learn a language, but still it would become horrendously complicated when much larger programs used to manage corporate databases and such.

Sides, why would we want to make it easier still for the 13 year old 1337 h4x0rs to create malicous programs to "fux up y0 b0x!"???

Well, it would be similar in efficiency for the machine, because it would, after all, be compiled. It would be extremely verbose and probably difficult to use for large programs, but I can definitely see it catching on in small program development. Especially areas where non-technical people need to write small, specialised programs. One example would be a simple accounting program in an office that couldn't (or didn't want to) afford a programmer. Or, knowing from experience, a church, that needs a program to manage donations or something. You get the idea; simple programs that let non-technical people automate tasks, whether to run a certain program at a certain time run "mozilla" at 9:04AM on weekdays or do tedious file manipulations like number all the files in the directory "/home/rob/docs" appending the number at the end of the filename. They don't have to full-fledged programs, just little scripts that do things based on rules that happen to be defined in almost natural language.

[SonOfAres]

well

a) Human programmers can always introduce new ideas to the programming world, as well as fix any AI problems that might occur

b) in accordance with human nature, if programmers fear for their jobs they will add a small line in the Neural Networks that ensures their job,......... hehe, I'm sure you can guess....

[ViMan]

Then we can rely on bugs in the code. No program is devoid of bugs. Just imagine if M$ was the one behind the program. lol...

Originally posted by sasKuatch
Yeah, AI is AI after all.

[SubWing]

nm

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by ViMan
Then we can rely on bugs in the code. No program is devoid of bugs. Just imagine if M$ was the one behind the program. lol...

:eek: :eek: :eek: and just imagine if it was doing things on it's own, trying to combat tampering, and if it had the same know-it-all attitude that windows had:eek: :eek: :eek: that'd be the end of life as we know it!

[ViMan]

Then we'd just pull the plug :)
Originally posted by sasKuatch
:eek: :eek: :eek: and just imagine if it was doing things on it's own, trying to combat tampering, and if it had the same know-it-all attitude that windows had:eek: :eek: :eek: that'd be the end of life as we know it!

[sasKuatch]

No no no, it's got anti-tampering devices to stop "unauthorized access" remember? It can protect itself to ensure it runs smoothly and efficiently, providing care-free running for customers.

;)

[ViMan]

Are we talking about a robot or a computer program? If it's a computer program, you can just disconnect electricity from the building. If it's a robot, then you call in the army....

[MMA]

I learnt that neural networks, after disconnecting an input or something, it can go around it. It can learn to, for example, move around with only one eye :D:D

Basicly if an error occurs the performance degrades, but it still still. It just takes a bit longer.

So if a "SkyNET" is built, you can pull the plug. But it will then find another way of powering itself :D:D

[sasKuatch]

It's a system that controls everything from security systems, water usage, inventory, payroll, climate control, elevators, doors, toilets, lights, telephones, etc. You know, like on The Jetsons (http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/watch/tv_shows/jetsons/) only, horribly, terribly wrong and out of control. So it's an AI-controlled system, neither a robot nor pure software.

[ViMan]

Then you either have to call in the army or a team of hackers. But this is kind of getting out of hand. If humans themselves aren't perfect, I doubt they can make a 'perfect' machine or 'SkyLab'.

[SonOfAres]

nonono, we don't build a perfect machine, we build a machine (AI), which in return builds a perfect machine. The AI learns to be perfect, we built an imperfect machine that made itself perfect.

oh, and if there ever was a SKYnet and u tried to call in the army, why do u think the "Computers" would let us do anything but shoot muskets from behind an electronically-charged fence? like we're gonna be able to use computer-targeting systems or radars....

I like the idea of hackers tho...... but is anyone else starting to get reminded of a certain episode of Sealab: 2021 here? anyone?

[MMA]

Originally posted by ViMan
Then you either have to call in the army or a team of hackers. But this is kind of getting out of hand. If humans themselves aren't perfect, I doubt they can make a 'perfect' machine or 'SkyLab'.


But the ting is, you don't know what "perfect" is.

No one knows what perfect is. So you can't say this species is perfect, and this ain't.
:D

[sasKuatch]

Don't know about Sealab, but Neuromancer definitely.