WilliamBishop

[slapNUT]

Williambishop

You spend too much time on a bbs dedicated to helping linux beginners trying your best to discredit the Christian faith.

Its only sad to those of us watching you. You seem to have much potential but it is squandered. Do you even use LINUX?

How many Christians do you think you have convinced to abandon their religion. Why would you even care if you make such a mockery of the religion? Why not let the fools wallow in their ignorance?

I guess that is your passion.. Too bad you couldn't turn your passion to ( Linux Installation HOWTO)


Just an observation from a friendly fan. You do make alot of good points. But you'll never convince me nor 99.9% of the Christians you meet that we are wrong. Why? It's real simple William. If you live a Christian life and you are right about Christ then you are rewarded. If you live a Christian life and you are wrong about Christ then what have you lost? Nothing as far as I know.

But if it's that imporant to you then keep up the good work of "un-christianizing the USA." I'm sure the USA will be so much better off when you rid it of the "evil christians." :D

[pcghost]

:D He's the Anti-Christian Coalition. LOL :D

But I must say it's refreshing to have people work as hard to undo religeon as they do to create it..

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
Williambishop

You spend too much time on a bbs dedicated to helping linux beginners trying your best to discredit the Christian faith.

Do I? And who are you to decide how anyone's time should be spent? :rolleyes:


Its only sad to those of us watching you. You seem to have much potential but it is squandered. Do you even use LINUX?

I use many OS's. What does this have to do with potential? How exactly is it squandered?

How many Christians do you think you have convinced to abandon their religion. Why would you even care if you make such a mockery of the religion? Why not let the fools wallow in their ignorance?

9 and counting.

I guess that is your passion.. Too bad you couldn't turn your passion to ( Linux Installation HOWTO)

The howto's out there are more than adequate. And destroying religion is indeed my passion. You did get one point right.

Just an observation from a friendly fan. You do make alot of good points. But you'll never convince me nor 99.9% of the Christians you meet that we are wrong. Why? It's real simple William. If you live a Christian life and you are right about Christ then you are rewarded. If you live a Christian life and you are wrong about Christ then what have you lost? Nothing as far as I know.

Well, therein lies the problem. I'm not much of a gambler, and I think it indecent to believe anything just because "you can't go wrong". As to the percentages, I'm really only after the .1%, and to piss of the rest.;)

But if it's that imporant to you then keep up the good work of "un-christianizing the USA." I'm sure the USA will be so much better off when you rid it of the "evil christians." :D

I agree.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by pcghost
:D He's the Anti-Christian Coalition. LOL :D

But I must say it's refreshing to have people work as hard to undo religeon as they do to create it..

:bows:

Thank you kind sir, for your vote of confidence.;) And for the record, I'm working harder to discredit it than they did to create it, because it sure was a terrible attempt.;)

[slapNUT]

You're funny... you're intelligent.... but I think there's a screw loose.

You dedicate too much time to this "Anti-christian" cause for it to be a normal "outlet!"

[Saptech]

I would only like to say, you seem to try to discredit everybody that don't agree with you, IMO.

Do you participate in any of the other forums here?

And is your age over or under 30 yrs old?

Just curious.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
You're funny... you're intelligent.... but I think there's a screw loose.

You dedicate too much time to this "Anti-christian" cause for it to be a normal "outlet!"

Too much time? I wouldn't say so, I generally am doing at least two things at the same time. While posting here, I'm reading a report, and about to go on a call for an application failure. I am also cruising for new books to add to my collection and defragging this hard drive. On another screen I am reading a book in pdf format, and I have two other BBS boards up also, responding to questions on Sun unix on one, and discussing philosophy on the other. What are you doing while you are questioning my use of time?;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
I would only like to say, you seem to try to discredit everybody that don't agree with you, IMO.

Do you participate in any of the other forums here?

And is your age over or under 30 yrs old?

Just curious.

I'm 32 now, and no, no other forums here. I participate in other things at other places though. What's wrong, did I stand on your toes on one of your assertions?

[Saptech]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I'm 32 now, and no, no other forums here. I participate in other things at other places though. What's wrong, did I stand on your toes on one of your assertions?
You can't stand on my toes on anything dealing with online activities. It aint that serious to me.

But as mention, you shouldn't try to discredit somebody's beliefs because you don't believe it. Also as was mention, nothing you say can change my mind on anything I've said!

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
You can't stand on my toes on anything dealing with online activities. It aint that serious to me.

But as mention, you shouldn't try to discredit somebody's beliefs because you don't believe it. Also as was mention, nothing you say can change my mind on anything I've said!

I will discredit religion as long as I live. And if it doesn't change your mind, that is no loss to me, it will others. Even if it didn't, I would do it anyway. Don't you have something you believe in?

[endorphinjunkie]

WilliamBishop,
Me thinks thou dost protest too much ;) I sometimes wonder just what it is in your background that has caused you to be so poisoned against religon. I am not a christian, but I have no problem with anyone who is. Or any other flavor of religon. I definately don't like what some religous bureaucracies are doing, but it isn't any greater sin that what you find in any other form of bureaucracies. And the individual believer has no more control over their organization that the average U.S. citizen has over our government. Why would deny anyone the comfort that religon offers? God (or nature, or whatever is responsible for us being here ) didn't create everyone equal. Not everyone has been gifted with a surety that you seem to profess. You are obviously intelligent, but I don't think you have yet found the next level, which is usually called wisdom. It may just be an age thing. You might want to do a little self-examination and find out what it is exactly that motivates your hate of religon.

That will be 5 cents please. :D

[Saptech]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I will discredit religion as long as I live.
I didn't mention anything about religion....I said somebody's belief, whateva they believe in! I don't even read those religion threads anymore and don't hardly participate in most of the rants threads.

And yes, I believe in alot of things.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
WilliamBishop,
Me thinks thou dost protest too much ;) I sometimes wonder just what it is in your background that has caused you to be so poisoned against religon. I am not a christian, but I have no problem with anyone who is. Or any other flavor of religon. I definately don't like what some religous bureaucracies are doing, but it isn't any greater sin that what you find in any other form of bureaucracies. And the individual believer has no more control over their organization that the average U.S. citizen has over our government. Why would deny anyone the comfort that religon offers? God (or nature, or whatever is responsible for us being here ) didn't create everyone equal. Not everyone has been gifted with a surety that you seem to profess. You are obviously intelligent, but I don't think you have yet found the next level, which is usually called wisdom. It may just be an age thing. You might want to do a little self-examination and find out what it is exactly that motivates your hate of religon.

That will be 5 cents please. :D

I really don't need to do self examination(well, more than I do on a daily basis anyway). I know perfectly well why I detest religion.

Tell me, do you detest child pornography? And why? Possibly because you realize that it is dangerous? That it will result in the harm of someone, not definately...but probably? And that it has caused harm to some child in the past(in the making of it)? That is why I fear, and loathe religion.


I also detest pedophiles, rapists, murderers, arsonists, sociopaths, and other things of the same ilk.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
I didn't mention anything about religion....I said somebody's belief, whateva they believe in!

And yes, I believe in alot of things.

What belief systems have I take away from someone, other than religion? I typically don't say, "you're wrong". I will generally give information related to the topic, and give an alternate way of seeing things. Perhaps you would enlighten me by showing me the thread where I took away someone's belief in something. I generally stand pretty neutral in most things.

[williamwbishop]

I sure seem popular tonight.:D

[slapNUT]

So you say you are doing two things but actually you are doing 8.

Reading a report.
About to go on-call for an application failure.
Cruisin for new books.
Defraggin a hard drive.
Reading a book.
Reading 2 other BBS's
Responding to Sun Unix
Discussing philosophy


Thats quite alot for one person. You must have alot of hard drives to have to defrag one every time you post here cause you post here quite frequently. I defrag my windows partition once every two years cause I only use it 2 to 3 times a year.

You never mentioned reading the bible (which you so hate). Maybe you could spend some time with God each day and you would hate Christans a little less?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
So you say you are doing two things but actually you are doing 8.

Reading a report.
About to go on-call for an application failure.
Cruisin for new books.
Defraggin a hard drive.
Reading a book.
Reading 2 other BBS's
Responding to Sun Unix
Discussing philosophy


Thats quite alot for one person. You must have alot of hard drives to have to defrag one every time you post here cause you post here quite frequently. I defrag my windows partition once every two years cause I only use it 2 to 3 times a year.

You never mentioned reading the bible (which you so hate). Maybe you could spend some time with God each day and you would hate Christans a little less?

There is no way I could do all 8. But when you start a defrag, do you stand over it(and yes, I have a lot of systems, their called servers, and since I am in a server room, I feel obligated to do the maitenance that I am paid to do.;) As to the other items, do you seriously think all the BBS's are going full throttle all the time. There will be a delay with each. And I am currently reading the pdf and doing this board, interactively. And my last response to sunmanagers(not truly a bbs but a list) was almost an hour ago. Maybe if there was a god, I could spend some time with him, her, or it. But as yet, I don't see this imaginary charcter, so it's kind of hard to chew the fat with it.:rolleyes: Oh, btw, I read the bible quite often, where is it you think I get verses, out of the thin air?

[Gantrep]

There is no point to this thread. What sense does it make to ask someone, not to justify their beliefs, but to justify expressing them?

And by the way, non-Christians in modern, industrial society do not strongly reject Christianity because they haven't seen the light or spent enough time reading the bible or some tripe like that. They are non-Christian because they disagree.

[endorphinjunkie]

William,
"detest" is too mild of a word to describe your hatred. I have read the religous/ anti-religous posts. I won't post in them though. The behavior shown by some is positively odius. And with each post you give additional clues about what drives you. And what may have happened to you in your past.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Gantrep
There is no point to this thread. What sense does it make to ask someone, not to justify their beliefs, but to justify expressing them?

And by the way, non-Christians in modern, industrial society do not strongly reject Christianity because they haven't seen the light or spent enough time reading the bible or some tripe like that. They are non-Christian because they disagree.

Don't worry, I do not mind the attack. It is something to wile away the time with. ;) But thanks for the support, of both me, and the right to speak.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
William,
"detest" is too mild of a word to describe your hatred. I have read the religous/ anti-religous posts. I won't post in them though. The behavior shown by some is positively odius. And with each post you give additional clues about what drives you. And what may have happened to you in your past.

Pray tell then, what is it in my past you think inspires me to these "odius" attacks on christianity. You neglected to mention, that I also attack the other religions as well. Don't keep us in suspense, please, by all means, give us your suppositions. I will wait with bated breath.;) And detest is not to mild a word, it fits it perfectly.

[slapNUT]

Well I'm not trying to piss you off and I didn't mean for everyone to jump in but thats the nature of the BBS.

I just wanted to give you my opinion of how I perceive you. I'm sure you were waiting on that little tidbit.

Anyways

Your anti-christian views will never change my beliefs. If you say you converted 9 people away from christanity then I say they were not christians to begin with.

It seems odd to me, .... would you spend as much time if this were a mostly Buddist BBS or Muslim?

[williamwbishop]

detest: To dislike intensely; abhor. From the latin word detestr(to curse).

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
Well I'm not trying to piss you off and I didn't mean for everyone to jump in but thats the nature of the BBS.

I assure you, you will not piss me off. I enjoy these little repartes.;) And I think if this is not what you intended, you would have pm'd it to me. But don't worry, it is fine.

I just wanted to give you my opinion of how I perceive you. I'm sure you were waiting on that little tidbit.

I didn't know how I was going to live another moment without knowing how you percieved me. ;)

Anyways

Your anti-christian views will never change my beliefs. If you say you converted 9 people away from christanity then I say they were not christians to begin with.

I say christians are only christians as long as they can keep up the facade, and block reality from their minds. So my debate and logic skills could never sway a true believer eh? Well, to each his own.

It seems odd to me, .... would you spend as much time if this were a mostly Buddist BBS or Muslim?

Actually, this is not a christian BBS, so I fail to see the logic in your question. And I do participate in deriding the muslim faith as well, you probably just don't notice because it is not attacking the basis for YOUR belief system.

[endorphinjunkie]

William,
I said " The behavior shown by some...." does not specifically include you or exclude you. You would know best if your behavior was odious. And I include some of the christians in the description of odious. Form deteriated on both sides of the issue,there.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
William,
I said " The behavior shown by some...." does not specifically include you or exclude you. You would know best if your behavior was odious. And I include some of the christians in the description of odious. Form deteriated on both sides of the issue,there.

Well, since you were addressing ME, I think it would not be a stretch to assume that you were talking to me throughout the entire sentence...would you?

[slapNUT]

Sorry I don't PM... you might be GAY and get weird!

Actually, this is not a christian BBS, so I fail to see the logic in your question. And I do participate in deriding the muslim faith as well, you probably just don't notice because it is not attacking the basis for YOUR belief system

I had to quote this because you and I both know that this is a "base Christian" BBS! You can deny that Will B but whos gonna listen to you?

[williamwbishop]

But, we are all still waiting on your analysis of my motives as to why I DETEST religion.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
Sorry I don't PM... you might be GAY and get weird!



I had to quote this because you and I both know that this is a "base Christian" BBS! You can deny that Will B but whos gonna listen to you?

I think if you asked, you would find christians in the minority here. Most will vote agnostic(although most won't bother to vote at all, because only the religious types have a big enough ego to think the world christian).

[carlywarly]

I think that Wwb mostly just points out the idiotic aspects of the bible, and unsavoury behaviour by "christians" either now, or in the past (and other faiths). It seems to me perfectly reasonable to do these things. After all, the one most important factor in deciding people's religion is the faith of their parents. You may argue about your individual beliefs, but, statistically, this is the case. Consequently, they inherit dogma that they don't even understand, in many cases (try talking to a few roman catholics about the trinity, for example....oh - it's a mystery..).

If peole were left to their own devices, you can bet your bottom dollar very few would come up with the tenet of original sin, or purgatory etc etc etc. These ideas are accepted by them as a complete package when they subscribe to an organised religion. How can it be wrong, then, to trawl through, say, Leviticus, and point out that houses cannot have leprosy, people with a crushed testicle should not be turned away from a church, stoning people for blaspheming is not nice ? I fail to see the problem with this. It is an attempt to get people to look more carefully at writings "inspired by god". If these writings are so appalling, then perhaps the whole edifice crumbles. If, on the other hand, someone believes deeply for entirely different reasons (a deep faith not rooted in ancient writings) these points will not affect them.

As for someone opening a thread on this topic, this seems very like the prescriptive behaviour you associate with those dreaded liberals. Telling people what to do, interpreting their motives (without asking them first) and suggesting they should be doing something else.

So, Wwb, to paraphrase, "I may agree completely with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by carlywarly
So, Wwb, to paraphrase, "I may agree completely with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."



Ah, voltaire! Excellent reading taste.:)

[CMonster]

"The darkest place is just under the candle stick."

Scripture is replete with verses that indicate how we just can't figure God out.

A few come to mind:

The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish...

The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom..

Has not God shown the wisdom of this age to be foolishness?

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools...

They shall be ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth...

-and there are hundreds more

Oh, sure I have questioned the great paradox:

Like why 1/3 of the angelic host are reported to have followed Lucifer in his rebelion, and wound up being damned? I can understand a mere mortal of limited mental capacity who was born into spiritual darkness making such a mistake, but these angels were living in the glory of God -who can explain why they would follow a lesser being? Did God make some angels a little on the stupid side? -or is Lucifer really that powerful? Or is it simply that free will is not free will unless there is a choice, and a choice is not a choice unless both sides are appealing? -or perhaps the story is just that, a story, and really, no God exists at all? (I know someone is going to love to clip and paste that last line)...

...as for being born in sin, well it's a little like being born with a birth defect because a parent was exposed to radiation (though he was warned not to wear uranium underpants) -not really my fault but I am nonetheless handicapped and I would be happy for someone to cure my condition.

But here is wisdom for the mature, screaming as it were from the pages of scripture -

The "nakedness" of Adam and Eve was a "symbol of sin" which they tried to "cover" with their own works (they "sewed" together fig leaves) and the covering of plant material represents their works. Now when God drove them out of paradise He made for them "clothes of animal skins" because their own coverings of plant material were not sufficient to protect them. God's clothes for them were skins, not wool, -that by the death of an animal this sacrifice represented Christ -the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So the symbol of the plant is that their own works could not cover their sin and protect them, but God provided another covering, a blood covering from a symbolic sacrifice that represented Christ.

This now sheds light on the whole symbol of Cain and Able, where Cain brought in the "work of his hands" harvested from the field -once again "plant material," and part of the curse no less "Cursed is the ground for thy sake... the earth shal not yield itself to you and in the sweat of your brow you shall eat food," so it is no wonder that Cain's offering was rejected by God -a man cannot be justified by works... but look at what Able brought as an offering - an animal, a lamb, and it was accepted of him -why? -it was to be a symbol of the Christ.

Further on we see that Moses (the law giver, who represented the Law) could not bring the Hebrews into the promised land, only up to the edge of it, to the river Jordan, and then it required bringing in another leader, Joshua, whose very name is Hebrew for "Jesus," to bring the Hebrews across the Jordan and into the promised land. Now there is a pattern -that they could not enter the promised land by the law, by Moses, which represents works, but they could enter in with Joshua, who represents the grace of God in Christ. Here the Jordan river represents the rift between life and death, and the promised land represents the eternal paradise of God, notice that all of the males had to be circumcised prior to crossing the Jordan -this represents putting off of the flesh, not merely abstaining from carnality, but the actual death of the beast as the spirit continues on into the promised land.

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory;"

"Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for them that love Him. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yes, even the deep things of God."

"The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, to him they are foolishness and he canot know them because they are spiritually discerned."

A couple of self-righteous @$$holes were talking down the nose at someone once, boasting about the "Master of Divinity" degree each of them possessed -upon hearing this I thought to myself, who could dare to think they were a true master of anything, let alone "holy things?" Moreover, who but God could bestow such a degree? Humans are funny and dangerous creatures.

[Saptech]

The reason Moses couldn't enter the promise land is because he broke one of the 10 commandments, Thou Shalt Not Kill!

And I thought it was Moses brother Aaron who was called upon to lead the people into the Promised Land

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by CMonster
"The darkest place is just under the candle stick."

Scripture is replete with verses that indicate how we just can't figure God out.

A few come to mind:

The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish...

The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom..

Has not God shown the wisdom of this age to be foolishness?

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools...

They shall be ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth...

-and there are hundreds more

Oh, sure I have questioned the great paradox:

Like why 1/3 of the angelic host are reported to have followed Lucifer in his rebelion, and wound up being damned? I can understand a mere mortal of limited mental capacity who was born into spiritual darkness making such a mistake, but these angels were living in the glory of God -who can explain why they would follow a lesser being? Did God make some angels a little on the stupid side? -or is Lucifer really that powerful? Or is it simply that free will is not free will unless there is a choice, and a choice is not a choice unless both sides are appealing? -or perhaps the story is just that, a story, and really, no God exists at all? (I know someone is going to love to clip and paste that last line)...

...as for being born in sin, well it's a little like being born with a birth defect because a parent was exposed to radiation (though he was warned not to wear uranium underpants) -not really my fault but I am nonetheless handicapped and I would be happy for someone to cure my condition.

But here is wisdom for the mature, screaming as it were from the pages of scripture -

The "nakedness" of Adam and Eve was a "symbol of sin" which they tried to "cover" with their own works (they "sewed" together fig leaves) and the covering of plant material represents their works. Now when God drove them out of paradise He made for them "clothes of animal skins" because their own coverings of plant material were not sufficient to protect them. God's clothes for them were skins, not wool, -that by the death of an animal this sacrifice represented Christ -the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So the symbol of the plant is that their own works could not cover their sin and protect them, but God provided another covering, a blood covering from a symbolic sacrifice that represented Christ.

This now sheds light on the whole symbol of Cain and Able, where Cain brought in the "work of his hands" harvested from the field -once again "plant material," and part of the curse no less "Cursed is the ground for thy sake... the earth shal not yield itself to you and in the sweat of your brow you shall eat food," so it is no wonder that Cain's offering was rejected by God -a man cannot be justified by works... but look at what Able brought as an offering - an animal, a lamb, and it was accepted of him -why? -it was to be a symbol of the Christ.

Further on we see that Moses (the law giver, who represented the Law) could not bring the Hebrews into the promised land, only up to the edge of it, to the river Jordan, and then it required bringing in another leader, Joshua, whose very name is Hebrew for "Jesus," to bring the Hebrews across the Jordan and into the promised land. Now there is a pattern -that they could not enter the promised land by the law, by Moses, which represents works, but they could enter in with Joshua, who represents the grace of God in Christ. Here the Jordan river represents the rift between life and death, and the promised land represents the eternal paradise of God, notice that all of the males had to be circumcised prior to crossing the Jordan -this represents putting off of the flesh, not merely abstaining from carnality, but the actual death of the beast as the spirit continues on into the promised land.

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory;"

"Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for them that love Him. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yes, even the deep things of God."

"The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, to him they are foolishness and he canot know them because they are spiritually discerned."

A couple of self-righteous @$$holes were talking down the nose at someone once, boasting about the "Master of Divinity" degree each of them possessed -upon hearing this I thought to myself, who could dare to think they were a true master of anything, let alone "holy things?" Moreover, who but God could bestow such a degree? Humans are funny and dangerous creatures. \

But you are doing no differently than anyone else, "interpreting" so that it makes sense to you, and allows you to continue believing. I see no way to interpret that verses don't really mean that women are worth less than a man, that killing children is okay, that to rape women is fine, that you need to keep the 'tards out of the church. Where is your interpretation for those things? It says these things, how are we to ignore it? Do you just pick the nice stuff and say "that is the true stuff because it is good" and the bad stuff is just figurative?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
The reason Moses couldn't enter the promise land is because he broke one of the 10 commandments, Thou Shalt Not Kill!

And I thought it was Moses brother Aaron who was called upon to lead the people into the Promised Land

But to acknowledge that moses led people anywhere, you have to believe that the exodus even occurred, when that is probably the least likely thing in the bible, not in the least bit supported by common sense, history, or logic. Whoops, there I go again, trampling on peoples beliefs;)

[Saptech]

You not trampling on my beliefs...I've told you you can't! ;)

And I was just stating the reason why Moses couldn't enter the land, according to the bible.

What do you believe?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
You not trampling on my beliefs...I've told you you can't! ;)

And I was just stating the reason why Moses couldn't enter the land, according to the bible.

What do you believe?

Believe in regards to what?

[Saptech]

You tell me?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
You tell me?

Well, you have to specify a topic if you want me to expound on it.

[Saptech]

What is this thread's topic?

I give, you win! I throw up both my hands!:rolleyes:

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Saptech
What is this thread's topic?

I give, you win! I throw up both my hands!:rolleyes:

The thread topic is why I suck for debating religion, how am I supposed to expound on that? :rolleyes:

[DMR]

This is absolutely WONDERFUL! I haven't visited /dev/random in months, but I'm glad I did; this thread has made my day.

Mr. Bishop:

Well done sir- Congratulations!

Although I've read none of your previous posts/threads, you seem to have garnered quite a reputation here in "/dev/random world", and a fair number of adversaries as well from the looks of things.

However, you seem to be doing an excellent job of summarily dispatching those adversaries by maintaining a very keen and unwavering focus on your initial points.

Keep up the good work- this is probably the most engaging thread I've ever sen in /dev/random!

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by DMR
This is absolutely WONDERFUL! I haven't visited /dev/random in months, but I'm glad I did; this thread has made my day.

Mr. Bishop:

Well done sir- Congratulations!

Although I've read none of your previous posts/threads, you seem to have garnered quite a reputation here in "/dev/random world", and a fair number of adversaries as well from the looks of things.

However, you seem to be doing an excellent job of summarily dispatching those adversaries by maintaining a very keen and unwavering focus on your initial points.

Keep up the good work- this is probably the most engaging thread I've ever sen in /dev/random!

I'm pleased that we provided you some respite from your day. I don't know that I've garnered a reputation, I seem to have annoyed quite a number of people from the looks of it. But thank you for the kind words.:)

[DMR]

Originally posted by slapNUT
...because you and I both know that this is a "base Christian" BBS!And we know this how? This is a world-wide Board, with many member of various beliefs... I wouldn't be so sure about the christian aspect. And even if it were so, what would it matter? After all, we're about Linux here, not religion, right? (I do, of course, leave
the association between operating systems and religion up to the Mac users).

Originally posted by slapNUT
You can deny that Will B but whos gonna listen to you? I will.; and not only that- I'll side with him. After all, his posts in this thread have been much more entertaining than yours...

:D :rolleyes:

[DMR]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I'm pleased that we provided you some respite from your day. As am I.

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I don't know that I've garnered a reputationNeither do I, it just seemed that way judging from this thread. As I said, I rarely frequent /dev/random, so...

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I seem to have annoyed quite a number of people from the looks of it. Well then, keep up the good work lad!

;)

[bogler]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Ah, voltaire! Excellent reading taste.:)

brain wank

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by bogler
brain wank

snide pot shot.

Hey, two can play.;)

[Elijah]

Originally posted by carlywarly
So, Wwb, to paraphrase, "I may agree completely with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."
I could answer something as close as that but in the religious aspect I may disagree with you William, but you have every right say what's in your mind. We've had our differences, but yet you've earned much of my respect. Knowing who I am, I rarely give it away ;)


edit: or maybe on some occasion ...

[redneckbrit]

At this moment in time somewhere in cyberspace I'll bet there's a group of muslims attacking some guy who was disparaging Islam because they dislike somebody questioning their belief that it is the true religion.

A good friend of mine is a buddhist. Can you christians please tell me why your religion is right and his is not?

[cid222]

IMHO:I think that if williambishop doesn't believe that christianity or any other religion is correct than he should just leave them alone and expect the same treatment from every christian

[crokett]

Originally posted by Saptech
What do you believe?

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Believe in regards to what?

I think Saptech is asking what do you believe in regards to the existence of God, Jehovah, Allah, whatever you want to call Him. Why he'd ask that I dunno since it seems pretty obvious you don't believe God exists. I'd be interested to know why you can be so sure. Believing in non-existence requires faith just as surely as believing in existence.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by crokett
I think Saptech is asking what do you believe in regards to the existence of God, Jehovah, Allah, whatever you want to call Him. Why he'd ask that I dunno since it seems pretty obvious you don't believe God exists. I'd be interested to know why you can be so sure. Believing in non-existence requires faith just as surely as believing in existence.

Why I don't believe in a god? That's simple, if we take into account that the book itself is a total joke(which I think we can all agree on), then it leaves you with only one option, to sense it. My 5 senses give me no clue to anything. I've had a tumultuous life, it has not made me reach for a crutch yet though. I am what you would call extremely self-reliant. I need no god, so I seek no god.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by cid222
IMHO:I think that if williambishop doesn't believe that christianity or any other religion is correct than he should just leave them alone and expect the same treatment from every christian

I think in that case, we should go back through time, and unkill every member of every culture that were slaughtered because they did not believe the same way religious wise as the people who came in to "enlighten" them. It would be all well and good to leave religion alone, but they do not do this, why then...should I?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Elijah
I could answer something as close as that but in the religious aspect I may disagree with you William, but you have every right say what's in your mind. We've had our differences, but yet you've earned much of my respect. Knowing who I am, I rarely give it away ;)


edit: or maybe on some occasion ...

My thanks to you.:)

[Hena]

Originally posted by cid222
IMHO:I think that if williambishop doesn't believe that christianity or any other religion is correct than he should just leave them alone and expect the same treatment from every christian
Why? I mean were only talking here. Surely you don't object to a argument of words because "they don't need to hear that". Surely a devout follower of any faith would and should see this as a possibility to test his/her/its faith against reasonable arguments or temptation.

Edit: I mean that this is not forced to others. They don't have to read all the posts. Or forced physically to do anything.

[bogler]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Why I don't believe in a god? That's simple, if we take into account that the book itself is a total joke(which I think we can all agree on), then it leaves you with only one option, to sense it. My 5 senses give me no clue to anything. I've had a tumultuous life, it has not made me reach for a crutch yet though. I am what you would call extremely self-reliant. I need no god, so I seek no god.

wait till your on your death bed grasping for life and terrified, then we'll see Eh?

as my grandfather used to say "the more you fight it, the more you beleive it"

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by bogler
wait till your on your death bed grasping for life and terrified, then we'll see Eh?

as my grandfather used to say "the more you fight it, the more you beleive it"

My mother drowned me in the tub when I was 5, I later drowned in smith lake swimming when I got caught in a trout line, and I've been in at least one motorcycle accident that left people scratching their heads wondering how I walked away. Doctor said I would never walk normally, I walk fine(btw, that time, I bled from every orifice in my body for days). I don't fear death, haven't for a very long time. The only thing I fear on this earth is the death of my family.

[williamwbishop]

That doesn't take into account a rollover where slipped some bone in my neck out, the snake bite, the NUMEROUS electric shocks over the years, the fall from a bluff when I was 14(probably not that high, but it sure seemed high back then), and the several alcohol poisonings in my younger days. Like my friends and family say, I've got nine lives...and as I always reply, "and they're all a ***** to kill".

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by bogler
wait till your on your death bed grasping for life and terrified, then we'll see Eh?

as my grandfather used to say "the more you fight it, the more you beleive it"

Like I always say..."bring it on." Thus far, every obstacle has only made me firmer in my belief and self reliance. Perhaps it's arrogant, but I like to think that I'm the strongest person I know when it comes to self. But it's been a long, and mostly hard life. I've earned the right to believe and say anything I wish to, I've the experience to call on, and the firmness to carry it.

[The Ennead IX]

I don't recollect having disagreed with Mr Bishop on any points of note but if at any time that happens then personally I will be glad of the informed opinion. I am usually up for a debate on anything of interest and regardless of the viewpoint it is rare to find someone who doesn't speak from ignorance, at least when Mr Bishop puts finger to key, what comes on screen is an informed opinion and that should be valued rather than criticised.

Keep up the good work, I can't say you've changed my views on anything in particular but I have certainly learnt from your posts and knowledge is always to be welcomed.

[bogler]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Like I always say..."bring it on." Thus far, every obstacle has only made me firmer in my belief and self reliance. Perhaps it's arrogant, but I like to think that I'm the strongest person I know when it comes to self. But it's been a long, and mostly hard life. I've earned the right to believe and say anything I wish to, I've the experience to call on, and the firmness to carry it.

Fair Enough, it does sound a bit arrogant though and from such a young man ;)

C'mon man - what happened to ya??

[Penrich]

Damn - I go away for two days and look what happens!

Doing your best to piss of the religous right again, eh, wb! Excellent job! When someone has to come out with a personal attack on you (i.e starting a thread with your name) you know that you have seriously pissed them off. Unfortunately, I'm sure you haven't made him think. Oh well, maybe next time...

The IPU is truly pleased with you!

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by bogler
Fair Enough, it does sound a bit arrogant though and from such a young man ;)

C'mon man - what happened to ya??

What happened to me? Please elaborate, kind of tired, I'm thinking about a nap.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I really don't need to do self examination(well, more than I do on a daily basis anyway). I know perfectly well why I detest religion.

Tell me, do you detest child pornography? And why? Possibly because you realize that it is dangerous? That it will result in the harm of someone, not definately...but probably? And that it has caused harm to some child in the past(in the making of it)? That is why I fear, and loathe religion.


I also detest pedophiles, rapists, murderers, arsonists, sociopaths, and other things of the same ilk.
John 13:35
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

How is this dangerous?

[keating305]

WOW! WilliamW, you da man; I sure wish I'd been here when this particular dispute on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin was going on; nothin' better than pissing off a bunch of self rightous proslyizing Christians, I especially like the part where they say "I forgive you"; like you care what they think; what arrogance. Williamw, stick to your guns; you've got at least one other heathen on the board that agrees with you; see you in the netherworld, dude!!

[CMonster]

Actually, Moses couldn't enter the promised land because he disobeyed God in that when the people needed water God had told him to speak to a rock and streams would pour forth from it, instead he struck the rock with his staff. Now God had told Moses on a previous ocassion to strike a rock, but this time Moses was told to speak to the rock -what's the difference?

Being that "the rock which followed them was Christ" -according to Paul, the rock was a symbol of Christ, and it was necessary for it to be smote only once (the crucifiction) for deliverance (water from the rock representing life), and thereafter it was only necessary to speak (pray) to the rock for deliverance ("I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely") -Moses was messing up God's symbol by striking the rock a second time.

Moreover, God was probably being merciful in that the "promised land" might have been somewhat of a disappointment to Moses after spending so much time in the mountain with God, in so much that Moses' face was glowing when he came back down to the people. I can imagine Moses thinking, "This is just more sticks and rocks and dirt -it looks about the same as the other side of the river." Moses was also old, and by that time in no condition to go on a campaign of genocide toward the native peoples in the "promised land."

"All things work together..." finally, a symbol of contrast in the change of command, that being the difference between a covenant of works, attempting to earn favor with God by obeying rules (which could never lead us into the "promised land") and a covenant of grace -by the bringing in of a leader, a deliverer; in this case symbolized by Joshua (whose name in Hebrew means "Yaweh/Jehova the Savior" -in Greek "Jesus").

[mychl]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave
John 13:35
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

How is this dangerous?

Oh boy, here we go again... hey dave, are you sure that one quote covers the g***** of what is in your little book there?

Surely you can't post ONE sentence from an entire book and hope to convince people that the entire book is like that... can you???

That is the very reason that 'believers' such as yourself scare me so much.... you actually buy into that crap.

On another note..... I thoroughly enjoy reading through WWB's posts. And I also think that this whole thing was started by another person on the board who was throwing his 'reason for the season' crap at everyone, and getting pissed when anyone said anything about it....

Keep up the good work WWB, and thanks for the insight....

You also need to pay more attention to your surroundings so you don't fall off of any more cliffs....

[mocnicom]

I support WB's freedom of speech.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by mychl
Oh boy, here we go again... hey dave, are you sure that one quote covers the g***** of what is in your little book there?

Surely you can't post ONE sentence from an entire book and hope to convince people that the entire book is like that... can you???

Well if one sentence isn't enough, here's a whole bunch more from all over the Book.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [35] By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

John 15:17
These things I command you, that you love one another.

Romans 12:10
Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Ephes. 4:1-3
I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, [2] with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, [3] endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

1 Thes. 3:12
And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you,

1 Thes. 4:9
But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

1 Peter 3:8-9
Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; [9] not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."

1 John 3:11-15
For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, [12] not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. [13] Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. [14] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. [15] Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:11-12
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
[12] No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

2 John 1:5
And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Zech. 8:17
Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor;
And do not love a false oath.
For all these are things that I hate,'
Says the Lord."

Mark 12:32-33
So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. [33] And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." But after that no one dared question Him.

Luke 10:27
So he answered and said, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' "

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;

Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" [37] Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' [40] On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10
For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [10] Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Keep up the good work WWB, and thanks for the insight....



You also need to pay more attention to your surroundings so you don't fall off of any more cliffs....
Is the latter statement directed to me or williamwbishop?

[Any]

Originally posted by keating305
Williamw, stick to your guns; you've got at least one other heathen on the board that agrees with you; see you in the netherworld, dude!!

This is what i dont understand. Lets say there is a god and a heaven and hell. Isnt your god supposed to be loving, caring and understanding? If someone leads a good life, always helps those in need but doesnt belive in your god or go to church every sunday would your god not allow him in to heaven?

Originally posted by slapNUT
If you live a Christian life and you are wrong about Christ then what have you lost? Nothing as far as I know.

Search for Pascals wager.

[Gantrep]

All of those New Testament quotes about love reminded me of one that I've never understood. I was wondering if someone could explain the following passage to me and why it does not contradict all the sayings and commandments concerning love and respect for one's family:

Luke 14:26
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

[emetib]

william, as a brother of the ipu i feel it's my time.


Originally posted by dungscooperdave


Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" [37] Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' [40] On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10
For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [10] Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


your loving god? who is the one on earth that is supposed to have the ear of god, and to know what god wants? the pope, wouldn't you say.

ok, point one. the crusades started by a pope to bring back the socalled holy lands to christianity. what happend, rape, pillage, death, destruction, in-fighting with the selected kings (by the pope of course). the slaughter of peoples that were not against christianity (pagans). take a look into the history of this if you don't believe me.

point two. the church, the holy spirit. hasn't once in the course of history, tried or even punished one of it's priests, popes, bishops,... for crimes against man. this is such a resputable point you will say, since these are laws of man and not god. well take a look, the laws that they are breaking, are laws against god.

point three. you say that the bible was written 1970 years ago. check your math. and that times have changed. the teachings of the catholic church have not. they still believe, that every thing you do on this earth is either a mortal sin or a venial sin. check out the attachment. this is from a priest that handed out a booklet at a class that i took, looking at broadening my knowledge of things. the page in the upper left is from venial sins of commandment 5. you shall not kill. the one in the lower left is from mortal sins of the same commandment.

so when i don't believe in what the church teaches, according to what most people have posted here, i'm not a christian. do i believe that there is a power out there that is greater than me? i surely hope so, this planet has taken a turn for the worst, and only with understanding and people being able to speak what they want to will it ever come to something that will make more than the politicians and the lunatics happy.

[emetib]

booklet

[BaVinic]

I think this whole thread is moronic, and I cannot believe that such semi-smart people are taking part in it. If you believe in Jesus and that makes you happy, good, I am happy for you, if you don't beleive in a G-d and that makes you happy, then again, I am happy for you.

what is the big deal? G-d does not use Linux, not is he likely to ( if there is indeed a G-d) so I do not think it matters.

Get on to the good stuff, let's talk about Linux. that is what this forum is here for ( and yes, I know this is a random forum).

WB: I like your style, you're funny, and you get your point accross.and you answer questions about Linux :)

SN: chill out dude.

Peace to all.

BaVinic

[Strogian]

Get on to the good stuff, let's talk about Linux. that is what this forum is here for ( and yes, I know this is a random forum).

You have no idea what's been going on here the past couple of weeks, do you? :D

[BaVinic]

Originally posted by Strogian
You have no idea what's been going on here the past couple of weeks, do you? :D

"hmm Did BaVinic open his mouth too soon??"

I guess I don't :( care to fill me in??

BaVinic

[mocnicom]

Originally posted by BaVinic
...G-d does not use Linux, not is he likely to...

Are you sure? What does he use then M$? no way. Apple, amiga, nope. Dos? Not even. Solaris, OS/2, hah! He obviously must be a linux user, if only to oppose the little Daemons of BSD.

[ferreter]

Originally posted by BaVinic

what is the big deal? G-d does not use Linux, not is he likely to ( if there is indeed a G-d) so I do not think it matters.



I think that God would use something more like its personality, bipolar like windows....but wouldn't we all be shocked if there is a Cristian got and s/he uses something lame like Xenix or win 3.1.1 ;)

[BaVinic]

Originally posted by ferreter
I think that God would use something more like its personality, bipolar like windows....but wouldn't we all be shocked if there is a Cristian got and s/he uses something lame like Xenix or win 3.1.1 ;)

:)

[williamwbishop]

I'm back, and I've had 12 hours of sleep, so let's get the party hopping guys!:)

Dungs, I would counterpoint your verses with some that are equally evil, from the same book...unfortunately, that's been done. It's in the why religion thread(among others), I think the fact that you ignored it in the first place, equates to I don't want to turn this into another religion thread. As you don't want to see anything that you don't have faith in, I'm probably just going to ignore you, and hope that you don't have any handicaps that will keep you out of the church.;)

Now, back to bashing me folks!:D

[endorphinjunkie]

Glad to see you back in form:) ... The benefits of sleep is SO underated:D

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
Glad to see you back in form:) ... The benefits of sleep is SO underated:D

Thankee!
I feel great, I haven't slept more than 3 hours a day in the last two weeks, and several days I went without. But I feel dandy now!

[b_usa]

w.bishop is one of the more small minded bigots I have met. Smart or not, he puts words in the mouths of those he argues with, goes off on rants about God being an "immoral, bloodthirsty, madman", and "rapist", and always finds a quick redirection when you present him with a response to one of his questions. He sets up his point of view, and then tries as hard as he can to fit you neatly into his stereotypes, regardless of what you say. On several occasions I have called his bluff, and he could not produce the statements, or even statements that could be construed as what he claimed I said/felt. He believes that Christians are violent and bigoted and still live similar to the Crusaders of the Dark Ages. To the contrary, I and all other Christians I know are tolerant, open-minded, and even accepting of other cultures and faiths. But w.bishop cannot accept this. Pitifuly, he has an image of the world that cannot be altered by reality. He forms an idea, and then has to distort reality to fit in with his adolescent beliefs. Intelligent or not, he is a bigot. I have never heard him deride any other faith/culture besides Christianity. My two cents.

[b_usa]

Here are some of my favorites:

w.bishop's greatest hits

quote:The god of the christian faith is an immoral, bloodthirsty, raving lunatic.
quote:What would you do at your gods command? If you answered ANYTHING!, congratulations, you are a true believer. And you are not human.
quote:He is your master. And woe unto the man who does not obey. You read, you research your bible. You figure out what happens to a man who does not slaughter women and children at gods will. God wants death and blood.
quote:Screw their god, he is a sword at the throat of humanity, and it's always there, waiting for some addle-brained fool to pick it up.
quote:They'll kill their own children, wives, whatever, for imagined slights, for minor infractions that go against their faith IN A GODDAMNED WORTHLESS BOOK! They'll torture and burn, they'll kill by the tens of thousands because others don't believe in the same damned invisible best friend.
quote:Obey the master, kill and rape and pillage...but only when it suits him. If you are his favoured children you can do anything you like?
quote:Anger and destruction on large scale is the purview of religion. You are free to butcher and rape and torture, you have the divine right to kill thy neighbor, because you are god's chosen and therefore above such flimsy contrivances as ethics and morality.
quote:He brought the world up in blood, according to their faith.

[williamwbishop]

Oh, my favourite poster....

Somehow, it seems you are just mad because your arguments are wishful thinking.

[carlywarly]

Originally posted by b_usa
w.bishop is one of the more small minded bigots I have met.

Interesting usage of the word bigot - according to Dictionary.com

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French, from Old French.]
Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant "an excessively devoted or hypocritical person." Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."

PS - just run through Leviticus for us, and point out how we should interpret all that stuff about stoning blasphemers to death etc. I'm sure it isn't really bloodthirsty at all.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by b_usa
Here are some of my favorites:

w.bishop's greatest hits

quote:The god of the christian faith is an immoral, bloodthirsty, raving lunatic.
quote:What would you do at your gods command? If you answered ANYTHING!, congratulations, you are a true believer. And you are not human.
quote:He is your master. And woe unto the man who does not obey. You read, you research your bible. You figure out what happens to a man who does not slaughter women and children at gods will. God wants death and blood.
quote:Screw their god, he is a sword at the throat of humanity, and it's always there, waiting for some addle-brained fool to pick it up.
quote:They'll kill their own children, wives, whatever, for imagined slights, for minor infractions that go against their faith IN A GODDAMNED WORTHLESS BOOK! They'll torture and burn, they'll kill by the tens of thousands because others don't believe in the same damned invisible best friend.
quote:Obey the master, kill and rape and pillage...but only when it suits him. If you are his favoured children you can do anything you like?
quote:Anger and destruction on large scale is the purview of religion. You are free to butcher and rape and torture, you have the divine right to kill thy neighbor, because you are god's chosen and therefore above such flimsy contrivances as ethics and morality.
quote:He brought the world up in blood, according to their faith.

Please, by all means, debunk the previous quotes.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by carlywarly
Interesting usage of the word bigot - according to Dictionary.com

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French, from Old French.]
Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant "an excessively devoted or hypocritical person." Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."

Going to have to file that one away.;)
I tried to keep it from turning into a religious thread, but some want it so bad, I guess there's no way around it.:(

[b_usa]

PS - just run through Leviticus for us, and point out how we should interpret all that stuff about stoning blasphemers to death etc. I'm sure it isn't really bloodthirsty at all.

I would do that, but I'm right int he middle of torturing some infidels at the moment. After that let's see, hmmm... Incest at 3:00, a quick set of bloodthirsty rapes at 4:30, well it's not looking good for tommorow. If your not busy tommorow, I can come over and convert you unto the threat of death... How's that? Great.

(PS I've stated on several occasions I'm not a Bible thumper. You guys just don't listen to anyone but yourselves do you?)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by b_usa
I would do that, but I'm right int he middle of torturing some infidels at the moment. After that let's see, hmmm... Incest at 3:00, a quick set of bloodthirsty rapes at 4:30, well it's not looking good for tommorow. If your not busy tommorow, I can come over and convert you unto the threat of death... How's that? Great.



Sounds like you have a busy day ahead of you then, better get to it.;)

[endorphinjunkie]

You people are better than any soap opera on tv. Excuse me, for a sec, while I go get some popcorn and a coke.:D :D

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
You people are better than any soap opera on tv. Excuse me, for a sec, while I go get some popcorn and a coke.:D :D

[grumbles] fine, you go get refreshments, while those of us busy entertaining you sit here hungry and thirsty. Sure, just sit there and enjoy yourself[ends grumbling]

[dogn00dles]

Originally posted by slapNUT
Williambishop
If you live a Christian life and you are right about Christ then you are rewarded. If you live a Christian life and you are wrong about Christ then what have you lost? Nothing as far as I know.


Eh, don't pull that Pascal stuff on me! The most holy thing you have is your life, right now (an ironic choice of words being a condensation from Nietzsche, but whatever). If you think that being a Christian is the best
way to live your life, do it. But why should you care how other people choose to live their lives to the fullest? Should you base your every living action
around a paradise you don't concretely know exists? Even so...any attempt to prove God exists, or believing in Him, is bound to fail. There are thousands of gods...there is no use trying to please them all in order to go to heaven. In the end, it all comes down to personal belief. You can be scared of a god, you can be told about a god, you can choose to pray to god out of a rational concern, but those are deterrents to truly believing in a God. Where does belief come in? Perhaps in the night sky, or in love, or whatever. But as a result of this rational God you have, these things are discredited and made a stepping stone to greater worlds...oh well...

However, this whole rant was not made to criticize Christianity in general, or why people believe in it.

"This is my way, where is yours?"
-Zarathustra

Once again, someone else can say it for me in 1% of the words...

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by dogn00dles
Eh, don't pull that Pascal stuff on me! The most holy thing you have is your life, right now (an ironic choice of words being a condensation from Nietzsche, but whatever). If you think that being a Christian is the best
way to live your life, do it. But why should you care how other people choose to live their lives to the fullest? Should you base your every living action
around a paradise you don't concretely know exists? Even so...any attempt to prove God exists, or believing in Him, is bound to fail. There are thousands of gods...there is no use trying to please them all in order to go to heaven. In the end, it all comes down to personal belief. You can be scared of a god, you can be told about a god, you can choose to pray to god out of a rational concern, but those are deterrents to truly believing in a God. Where does belief come in? Perhaps in the night sky, or in love, or whatever. But as a result of this rational God you have, these things are discredited and made a stepping stone to greater worlds...oh well...

However, this whole rant was not made to criticize Christianity in general, or why people believe in it.

"This is my way, where is yours?"
-Zarathustra

Once again, someone else can say it for me in 1% of the words...

I think I must have had a brain fart, because I read that as a defense of the impious williamwbishop. Am I mistaken?

[carlywarly]

Originally posted by b_usa
I would do that, but I'm right int he middle of torturing some infidels at the moment. After that let's see, hmmm... Incest at 3:00, a quick set of bloodthirsty rapes at 4:30, well it's not looking good for tommorow. If your not busy tommorow, I can come over and convert you unto the threat of death... How's that? Great.

(PS I've stated on several occasions I'm not a Bible thumper. You guys just don't listen to anyone but yourselves do you?)

Now, I'm confused. In other threads you have stated that the old testament is effectively a history of god's dealings with his people, some time in the past. The new testament is much more relevant because it post-dates the new covenant. Is that essentially right?

The reason for my confusion is this. Is the god of the OT the same being as the god of the NT? It would appear that he is, according to your take on the relationship between the 2 sets of books. Perhaps, however, he actually was a different god. Hopefully, you can explain this to me.

In the OT, there are many passages where "the Lord" speaks directly to certain people. Is this lord the same god that you believe in and follow? Are these verse true? Did your god actually talk to people, and did they then write it down so that it eventually formed part of the bible?

Or perhaps they need to be "interpreted" carefully for some reason. Hopefully, you can tell me.

[The Ennead IX]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Going to have to file that one away.;)
I tried to keep it from turning into a religious thread, but some want it so bad, I guess there's no way around it.:(


Strangely ironic really, I guess that would seem to suggest that the problem is not with you as a person but with your views, and, in speaking out for them you end up being metaphorically crucified. Maybe that IPU really does have something going for it ;)

Personally I still think the big book was written in Eridu by the Sumerians and all that came after it was a bit of plagiarism in the hope of getting the film rights.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by The Ennead IX
Strangely ironic really, I guess that would seem to suggest that the problem is not with you as a person but with your views, and, in speaking out for them you end up being metaphorically crucified. Maybe that IPU really does have something going for it ;)

Personally I still think the big book was written in Eridu by the Sumerians and all that came after it was a bit of plagiarism in the hope of getting the film rights.

You would be correct sir. Too bad, they didn't really get any better. You'd think with all that time on their hands they could have written it better. So many rip-offs of old stories.

[timbobagginsii]

Originally posted by slapNUT
But you'll never convince me nor 99.9% of the Christians you meet that we are wrong. Why? It's real simple William. If you live a Christian life and you are right about Christ then you are rewarded. If you live a Christian life and you are wrong about Christ then what have you lost? Nothing as far as I know.

Au contraire, not that I like quoting scripture at people but 1 Corinthians 15 says, and I paraphrase, If Christ was not raised from the dead, our faith is futile, and if we only have hope in Christ for this life (ie and not for eternity) then we are to be pitied more than all men. So we've wasted all that we had for a fallacy, when we should have been having so much more fun...
Having said that, it's my understanding that Christianity is more about having a relationship with Jesus today than being miserable here and waiting to be rewarded once you get to heaven.

On the whole WWB thing, if he wants to spend his time being an advocate for Godlessness in the dev/random forum that's up to him. Not that he needs me to tell you that.

[mychl]

Originally posted by b_usa
(PS I've stated on several occasions I'm not a Bible thumper. You guys just don't listen to anyone but yourselves do you?)

If you're not a bible thumper, then why do you throw it in everyone's face with your sig, or your avatar?

Is that not what a bible thumper does?

[dogn00dles]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I think I must have had a brain fart, because I read that as a defense of the impious williamwbishop. Am I mistaken?

Haha, here we go with the brain farts again! I'm pretty sure it was...I had too much of that manzanilla tea...makes you feel like you're cemented to the ground...And I don't know how you could possibly stain yourself with such words after dedicating your life to the IPU...jam rules.

[Penrich]

Originally posted by b_usa
I would do that, but I'm right int he middle of torturing some infidels at the moment. After that let's see, hmmm... Incest at 3:00, a quick set of bloodthirsty rapes at 4:30, well it's not looking good for tommorow. If your not busy tommorow, I can come over and convert you unto the threat of death... How's that? Great.

(PS I've stated on several occasions I'm not a Bible thumper. You guys just don't listen to anyone but yourselves do you?)
IIRC, the last time you were directly asked to comment on the OT in a similar manner, you used exactly the same type of witty comment to dodge answering then. Is that because you have no reply, since none can be made?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by dogn00dles
Haha, here we go with the brain farts again! I'm pretty sure it was...I had too much of that manzanilla tea...makes you feel like you're cemented to the ground...And I don't know how you could possibly stain yourself with such words after dedicating your life to the IPU...jam rules.

Green tea all the way! Down with any other!;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
IIRC, the last time you were directly asked to comment on the OT in a similar manner, you used exactly the same type of witty comment to dodge answering then. Is that because you have no reply, since none can be made?

Leave off kindly, all his arguments always come back to restating his own beliefs in place of supported evidence or rational thinking("just cuz"). It's really not worth the effort.

[keating305]

Well, I've come back to look over the devastation; what I see is WilliamW standing head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd; I admire you WilliamW; I wouldn't have the patience to put up with the venom that these self-styled Christians spew. My only thought is that you will , in the long run, loose; they have the ultimate argument; "God told me this is the way it is"; I've yet to run into someone who has actually had a sit-down with God, but they all use the argument that God has personally told them that they're right. I firmly believe that there is a God; I just as firmly believe that any religion that says that "MY way is the ONLY way" is WRONG; God exists in every persons heart; how you relate to him is a subjective decision; it's YOUR choice, not the choice of someone else; that's mind control, on a far greater level than any totalitarian government that ever existed. This is a dispute that has no end; it's also the reason that religious extremeists are holding the world hostage- reflect on that; it is religion that propells a young person to blow themselves up to kill people of another faith. I'm sure that someone will say that "No, it's political differences that cause suicde bombers". Well, you're WRONG- it's RELIGION; it's a short step from proslytizing to killing those who disagree with you, and that step has been taken many times in history; there have been more people killed in Gods name that for any other reason. I'm sure that all the people who've posted avocating the Christian philosophy truly believe the're right; I'm equally sure that if Jesus Christ could see the horrors that have been commited in his name, he would weep.

[williamwbishop]

No, I think I will not lose. It really does come down to the "just cuz" responses by those on the other side in the end, but those who browse the thread will see what truly is, and for posterity, it will be known. That is fine by me. I never argue just for today, and I always have a purpose in mind. Ask my replacements(I'm trying really hard to groom them well), some were against me in the beginning. But "it only takes the small idea to stretch the mind, which once stretched can never return to it's former shape"(paraphrased). Soon there will be three to replace me, and I can rest some. They will continue the good fight, further supporting it and increasing it, doing their best to fight common superstitions and bring the light of reason to the threads. Ignorance doesn't stand close inspection very well, but religion is a tough nut to crack. It is designed so that it's followers believe all the more because they are taught that they will have "moments of weakness"(which are just common sense) and so they feel guilty that this imaginary person can see inside their minds, which brings on stronger faith. I would recommend that everyone read some work by shermer. It really should be required reading in schools everywhere.

[timbobagginsii]

Three replacements? Then you can rest? C'mon, you love the fight too much. And a freshly rested Bishop should be a sight for sore eyes.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by timbobagginsii
Three replacements? Then you can rest? C'mon, you love the fight too much. And a freshly rested Bishop should be a sight for sore eyes.


You would think, but I post on at least 5 boards, putting out hot spots basically, and when I get on a tear, I will be posting at so many places so frequently that if two posters are alike, then I will confuse them. Hence the experience a couple weeks ago, when I had someone that reminded me so much of B_usa that I cross posted, mixing another jesus freak with b. But those are the breaks. I've found good success by replacing myself and letting my replacement continue to create more and then they eventually migrate themselves. It's expansion. Sometimes it's quick, they catch on fast, but most times it's not. No one volunteers, it's just a process of wearing down the tendency to believe what you are brought up believing, then finally they reach a level, where everything is taken with a grain of salt, and a motive for every action is sought.

[timbobagginsii]

Michael - the sceptic or Thomas C. - the computer scientist?
I'm guessing Mikey.

[Penrich]

Just who does that condescending w@nker think that he is training, anyway? ;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by timbobagginsii
Michael - the sceptic or Thomas C. - the computer scientist?
I'm guessing Mikey.

You guessed correctly. Another just asked me that very question not long ago.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
Just who does that condescending w@nker think that he is training, anyway? ;)

Shhh...Don't tell, only two of them know that I'm trying to manipulate them, the last hasn't figured it out yet, and I still need one in reserve in case one breaks.;) I think at least one of them, if he were to name himself would shock you. He didn't appreciate being manipulated, and is kind of standoffish for the moment, but he'll come around.;)

[Penrich]

Personally, no. I try to avoid expletives of anykind in my everyday conversation. Just use them for effect here and there (make them much more effective when you usually don't use them). As a rule, I never post a wanker, damn, fsck... just in case sasKuatch gets an idea to think that all atheists can do is swear.

EDIT - For the record, timbo deleted his "you can't post wanker" question while I was answering it.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
Personally, no. I try to avoid expletives of anykind in my everyday conversation. Just use them for effect here and there (make them much more effective when you usually don't use them). As a rule, I never post a wanker, damn, fsck... just in case sasKuatch gets an idea to think that all atheists can do is swear.

I really don't think you will offend him by being either and atheist or swearing. I wouldn't worry. You can always ask him though, I try not to speak for anyone's thoughts.

[timbobagginsii]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Shhh...Don't tell, only two of them know that I'm trying to manipulate them, the last hasn't figured it out yet, and I still need one in reserve in case one breaks.;) I think at least one of them, if he were to name himself would shock you. He didn't appreciate being manipulated, and is kind of standoffish for the moment, but he'll come around.;)
I do hope you're not refering to me, I could make an exceptional sceptic if this faith thing didn't get in the way. Or am I flattering myself.

[Penrich]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I really don't think you will offend him by being either and atheist or swearing. I wouldn't worry. You can always ask him though, I try not to speak for anyone's thoughts.
It was more of a comment to his current sig, the link how "leftists argue". Not really about sasKuatch at all.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by timbobagginsii
I do hope you're not refering to me, I could make an exceptional sceptic if this faith thing didn't get in the way. Or am I flattering myself.

Actually, considering some of your posts, you would make an excellent skeptic I should think. But no, you are not one of the three. Although, come to think of it you would make an ideal reserve card. Interesting idea, I should have thought of that later. You do argue rationally, you don't let your feelings or beliefs get in the way of discussion(I find it best use people who aren't already hard line atheists, I prefer study and discussion to do that, so the anger is not excessive and results in loss of face...You actually would be a perfect choice. Perhaps 4 and a reserve?;)

edit for typo...thanks penrich.

[timbobagginsii]

Originally posted by Penrich

EDIT - For the record, timbo deleted his "you can't post wanker" question while I was answering it.
yeah, once I found that you could, I decided it was wise to not provoke another thread locking by using bad language such as poo, bum, willy, wanker and crap.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
It was more of a comment to his current sig, the link how "leftists argue". Not really about sasKuatch at all.


I wouldn't worry, the move from having a static set of beliefs to having no beliefs and dissecting those that you run accross, is a slow process. The move from "normal" to "skeptic" is natural, and the harder one claws onto those old belief systems, the stronger an opponent you become.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by timbobagginsii
yeah, once I found that you could, I decided it was wise to not provoke another thread locking by using bad language such as poo, bum, willy, wanker and crap.

That's good, because I was having a hard time figuring out what was going on.

[timbobagginsii]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
That's good, because I was having a hard time figuring out what was going on.
Wow, us enlightening you. Kinda gives me a warm gooey feeling.

[Penrich]

Originally posted by timbobagginsii
I do hope you're not refering to me, I could make an exceptional sceptic if this faith thing didn't get in the way. Or am I flattering myself. I think you and emitib both have some remnants of faith left in you, although I'm sure both would make excellent skeptics. We just need to get the IPU to bash a little harder on you.

Who else - from the current religous debates, ferreter, windoze killa and myself would stand out. From past debates, I think that he has been working on ***deleted***, and considers him a "trainee", although not quite in the same vein. Hmmm - decided to leave than name out. I can PM anyone my guess if they like.

Personally, I hate to be part of ANYONES master plan, other than my own. I can be taught, and am willing to learn. I enter into these debates with both eyes open, and can see mainpulation from all sides. Sometimes, I choose to go along. Or am I just kidding myself?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
I think you and emitib both have some remnants of faith left in you, although I'm sure both would make excellent skeptics. We just need to get the IPU to bash a little harder on you.

Who else - from the current religous debates, ferreter, windoze killa and myself would stand out. From past debates, I think that he has been working on ***deleted***, and considers him a "trainee", although not quite in the same vein. Hmmm - decided to leave than name out. I can PM anyone my guess if they like.

Personally, I hate to be part of ANYONES master plan, other than my own. I can be taught, and am willing to learn. I enter into these debates with both eyes open, and can see mainpulation from all sides. Sometimes, I choose to go along. Or am I just kidding myself?

No one likes to be manipulated, that's why it's always best to do it without their knowing it. The same was done to me. I used to be just like everybody else(well, not truly, I've never been exactly normal) but a professor opened my eyes to seeing the world as it truly was. I remember the day I finally figured out that I was being directed without my awareness, I remember standing up after class and being pissed enough to hit him, but I waited...and thought on it. And a week later, while still being slightly pissed at being led by the nose all around the world to a point that was only a yard away(you have to make the journey, or it doesn't take) I was grateful. I never looked at the world the same way again, and never will. It wasn't ethical to me at the moment, but later? Later I understood.

[williamwbishop]

And pen, to set your mind at ease, because I know what you were asking...No, not you. You have been a skeptic far longer than I have known you. You are already there, just not a crusader...yet.;)

[Penrich]

Hmmm the plot thickens.

[williamwbishop]

I surmise you have a gleam of either a suspicion or an idea. Which is it amigo?:)

[williamwbishop]

You can PM it if you like, I suspect you have figured out one, possibly two. Am I right, you think you know? I wouldn't be so sure. One has known for several months now. One only suspects, and one has no clue whatsoever.

[timbobagginsii]

Woo, there really are conspiracies within the Linux community. Bill Gates should be informed.

[Penrich]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
And pen, to set your mind at ease, because I know what you were asking...No, not you. You have been a skeptic far longer than I have known you. You are already there, just not a crusader...yet.;)

But

I find it best use people who are already hard line atheists

I'm quite disappointed really :(

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by timbobagginsii
Woo, there really are conspiracies within the Linux community. Bill Gates should be informed.

Of course there are conspiracies, there always have been and always will be. It is human nature to get involved in such things, more fun yet to create them and carry them out. There is something so satisfying about playing chess with people. I know it is a touch wrong, but if you have someone's best interests at heart, really, is it wrong? As long as you give them a way out, and plenty of opportunity to get free, I see no true problems with it.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
But



I'm quite disappointed really :(

Sorry, typo--it's supposed to be aren't. Sorry. I'll go back and edit it. Amazing how two letters can change the whole meaning of a statement.

[Penrich]

Of course, I don't expect you to come out and say who they are - you might even deny it if we get it right...

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I'm back, and I've had 12 hours of sleep, so let's get the party hopping guys!:)

Dungs, I would counterpoint your verses with some that are equally evil, from the same book...unfortunately, that's been done. It's in the why religion thread(among others), I think the fact that you ignored it in the first place, equates to I don't want to turn this into another religion thread.
Now, back to bashing me folks!:D
Please, post me a few links to those things which I have ignored.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by Gantrep
All of those New Testament quotes about love reminded me of one that I've never understood. I was wondering if someone could explain the following passage to me and why it does not contradict all the sayings and commandments concerning love and respect for one's family:

Luke 14:26
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Well, you could try reading the verse in context.
Luke 14:25-33
Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, [26] "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. [27] And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [28] For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it-- [29] lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, [30] saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' [31] Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? [32] Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. [33] So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. "

He is not saying here that we must literally hate anyone. He is teaching that we must realize that we may have to give up certain things when follow Him. We must realize that when we follow Him, people, even our family members, may persecute us and reject us. So in order to become His disciple, following Him has to come first in our lives, no matter what the cost.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by emetib
william, as a brother of the ipu i feel it's my time.

your loving god? who is the one on earth that is supposed to have the ear of god, and to know what god wants? the pope, wouldn't you say.

I would not say this. The Bible contains everything that God wants us to know. It is our responsibility to study it to discover what God has to say. The pope cannot do this for us. As a matter of fact, I can't find one place in the Bible where the pope is talked about or given any sort of special authority.


ok, point one. the crusades started by a pope to bring back the socalled holy lands to christianity. what happend, rape, pillage, death, destruction, in-fighting with the selected kings (by the pope of course). the slaughter of peoples that were not against christianity (pagans). take a look into the history of this if you don't believe me.

So what? Just because dude xyz claims to do something in the name of abc, does it mean that's what abc wanted? The pope does not necessarily obey God's every desire. In fact, he does not.


point two. the church, the holy spirit. hasn't once in the course of history, tried or even punished one of it's priests, popes, bishops,... for crimes against man. this is such a resputable point you will say, since these are laws of man and not god. well take a look, the laws that they are breaking, are laws against god.
Well, I don't know too much about the Roman Catholic church, me not being Roman Catholic, but if I saw a leader in my church doing something wrong, I'd do what the Bible says, which is to correct them, and if they don't repent, then I'd do what the Bible says and throw them out of the church.


point three. you say that the bible was written 1970 years ago. check your math. and that times have changed. the teachings of the catholic church have not. they still believe, that every thing you do on this earth is either a mortal sin or a venial sin. check out the attachment. this is from a priest that handed out a booklet at a class that i took, looking at broadening my knowledge of things. the page in the upper left is from venial sins of commandment 5. you shall not kill. the one in the lower left is from mortal sins of the same commandment.
Well, like I said, I'm not Catholic so I'm not going to sit here and defend the Roman Catholic Church. What you do need to realize, though, is that the Bible is still relevant today. You cannot simply say, "The Bible is old, so it can't still apply." This is called "Chronological Snobbery" and is a recognized logical fallacy.


so when i don't believe in what the church teaches, according to what most people have posted here, i'm not a christian.
Well, I don't believe you have to be a member of church xyz to be a Christian. I myself don't agree 100% on every issue with my church.

do i believe that there is a power out there that is greater than me? i surely hope so,
Don't worry. There is One. Please find out what He has to say by getting your hands on a Bible and studying it.

[slapNUT]

Penrich
Doing your best to piss of the religous right again, eh, wb! Excellent job! When someone has to come out with a personal attack on you (i.e starting a thread with your name) you know that you have seriously pissed them off. Unfortunately, I'm sure you haven't made him think. Oh well, maybe next time... I didn't think I was attacking anyone by asking a question. The reason I put WB name on the thread is because, well because I was asking him a question.
mychl
On another note..... I thoroughly enjoy reading through WWB's posts. And I also think that this whole thing was started by another person on the board who was throwing his 'reason for the season' crap at everyone, and getting pissed when anyone said anything about it.... No I don't even participate in these religious debates, and rarely post on /dev/random although others will swear otherwise.

I'm just curious as to the source for WB's passion against Christianity. He says it's a passion against religion in general but I don't think he's being honest there.

It seems to me everyone who posts to this thread and is pissed is on WB's side of the debate. You people don't think anyone has a right to question him when he posts so many anti-Christian threads, and posts with such obvious contempt and utter disrespect. I mean at least most of the Christians here acknowledge his right to post his opinion.

Any
This is what i dont understand. Lets say there is a god and a heaven and hell. Isnt your god supposed to be loving, caring and understanding? If someone leads a good life, always helps those in need but doesnt belive in your god or go to church every sunday would your god not allow him in to heaven? I totally agree. Going to church doesn't make you a good person. However I do believe WB might piss God off saying some of the things he says. But I still think God would forgive him.

In conclusion. WB can believe/post what he likes. I enjoy the other forums much more than /dev/random so I will spend most of my time there.

My question was why come to a Linux board to try and discredit Christianity? Basically I think he answered my question when he said he is de-fragging while posting. The next time you see the BSOD William, say a prayer, maybe it will go away. :D

[Penrich]

So what? Just because dude xyz claims to do something in the name of abc, does it mean that's what abc wanted?

But that is part of the problem, isn't it? If one does something, and claim it is is God's name, but another disagrees, then who is correct? e.g. if a Baptist says God told them not to sing and dance, but a happy-clappy Evangelical wants to pick up his guitar and sing it from the mountain, who is correct? Assume for a minute that the bible is absolutely absolute. Follow it - go to heaven; do not follow it, go to hell. Now - I assume that both of the above groups got their ideas (to sing or not to sing) from the Bible (though I don't know specific quotes). Does that mean that an entire group of otherwise good people will go to hell because they did(n't) sing?

Of course, that is but one example. There are many more. The bible seems so open to different interpretations that actually chosing the ONE way seems impossible. Hence, so many different Christian groups. Which ONE is correct?

And then, of course, there are non-Christians - e.g. Muslims - who believe in the same God, but have a very different way of Worshiping him. Which way is correct?

How does one know which religion to follow? Is it purely cultural? If so, is religion nothing more than tradition?

[Gantrep]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave


He is not saying here that we must literally hate anyone. He is teaching that we must realize that we may have to give up certain things when follow Him. We must realize that when we follow Him, people, even our family members, may persecute us and reject us. So in order to become His disciple, following Him has to come first in our lives, no matter what the cost.

So in other words, you are saying that he was addressing issues of priorities? That having riches and loving one's family is mutually exclusive with being one of his disciples? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. There are ideas in Buddhism that are quite similar to that. One should give up his earthly possesions, relations and be dedicated to God.

I didn't think that my quote was out of context. 'Forsake' is milder than 'hate' but in context, they seem to express a pretty similar sentiment. However, that middle section was interesting as well. The idea seems to be that one should be careful in one's endeavers and not rush in with little planning where failure is likely. I assume that mostly he was still addressing discipleship; saying that they shouldn't begin it if they aren't willing to continue until the end. Correct?

[yawningdog]

I personally am having a hard time believing that this forum takes a fellow like williamwbishop so seriously. The guy claims that at the tender age of 17, and so drunk he couldn't even stand up, he frightened his father so badly (with nought but a stare mind you) that pops went running inside, grabbed a shotgun and locked the door. I'm paraphrasing, because this cat isn't worth the time it takes to hunt down the post in which he regales the story.

Oh yeah, he benched 360 or something. And get a load of all the rare and wonderful museum quality books he owns. He speaks what, twelve languages? Uh-huh. I'm just waiting for the story about when he discovered cold fusion and sold it to Saudi Arabia.

williamwbishop is just as religeous as anybody. His religeon is Secular Humanism. And, like any religeous zealot, he preaches hate for other religeons.

[drummerboy195]

I didn't think that my quote was out of context. 'Forsake' is milder than 'hate' but in context, they seem to express a pretty similar sentiment. However, that middle section was interesting as well. The idea seems to be that one should be careful in one's endeavers and not rush in with little planning where failure is likely. I assume that mostly he was still addressing discipleship; saying that they shouldn't begin it if they aren't willing to continue until the end. Correct?
correct
And then, of course, there are non-Christians - e.g. Muslims - who believe in the same God, but have a very different way of Worshiping him. Which way is correct?
at the risk of offending any muslims out there, the christian God and the muslim allah are not the same diety. it says in the quran that allah is the great deciever, and this same descriptive phrase was used 500? years before in the new testament to describe the devil. im not certain on the refrence for the quran, i would have to do some digging, but it is there, repedtly, if i remember correctly.

[Timothy L. Miller]

Wow, and I thought the threads shoving religion down peoples throats were bad...
Although I personally see nothing wrong with what he's doing. I agree with it in fact. Never was very fond of fairy tales, and all these stories about a "god" sound like nothing more than that to me. Besides, look at how hypocritcal they get: a madman in ancient Rome claims he's the son of god, and everyone writes books about him. A madman in Waco, Texas claims he's the son of god, and they call the swat team in to shoot him...they really need to work on consistency. :)

[Gantrep]

No offense, but I believe you may be mistaken.

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/marpq9811.html

EDIT: I was addressing drummerboy195's post about Allah being called the great deceiver in the Quran.

[mychl]

No I don't even participate in these religious debates, and rarely post on /dev/random although others will swear otherwise.

Actually SlapNUT, I wasn't referring to you at all.... I don't see a problem with your thread.... it was after all just a question....

[Strogian]

Originally posted by Timothy L. Miller
Wow, and I thought the threads shoving religion down peoples throats were bad...
Although I personally see nothing wrong with what he's doing. I agree with it in fact. Never was very fond of fairy tales, and all these stories about a "god" sound like nothing more than that to me. Besides, look at how hypocritcal they get: a madman in ancient Rome claims he's the son of god, and everyone writes books about him. A madman in Waco, Texas claims he's the son of god, and they call the swat team in to shoot him...they really need to work on consistency. :)

Um.. they nailed the Jesus to a cross, remember? :)

[emetib]

I would not say this. The Bible contains everything that God wants us to know. It is our responsibility to study it to discover what God has to say. The pope cannot do this for us. As a matter of fact, I can't find one place in the Bible where the pope is talked about or given any sort of special authority.

peter, was given the special right as pope. the leader, by christ himself.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm

So what? Just because dude xyz claims to do something in the name of abc, does it mean that's what abc wanted? The pope does not necessarily obey God's every desire. In fact, he does not.

then why is there a pope? why does the world put so much power in his hands? if the pope doesn't follow god's even whim, why is it that this person gets to make things absolute according to the catolic belief system, cannonization?

Well, I don't know too much about the Roman Catholic church, me not being Roman Catholic, but if I saw a leader in my church doing something wrong, I'd do what the Bible says, which is to correct them, and if they don't repent, then I'd do what the Bible says and throw them out of the church.

the only time that i've seen one thrown out of the church is when that person steps down. actually this isn't being thrown out of the church, they had it in there beliefs, morals, ethics to step down. they knew they did wrong against their basic moral beliefs.

What you do need to realize, though, is that the Bible is still relevant today.

basic morals are always relevant. this is the only good thing that the book teaches, how one should treat others. if you (no offense) grew up in a good house, with or w/out religion, you would see this. how to treat another is simple, treat them how you would like to be treated. i.e. like they were another human being, give them respect and they will show the same.

Don't worry. There is One. Please find out what He has to say by getting your hands on a Bible and studying it.

i don't need to read the bible to be able to go into every situation with open eyes and learn. if the teacher can't learn from the student, then the student will become the teacher.


as to the main reasons to wb's posts and replies, as i see it. he believes in what he believes. it's just that simple. what he decides to post isn't a threat to anyone unless they don't have an open mind and are so decided on their point that they have to get defensive about it. i think that these speak your mind posts/replies are great. if i don't agree with someone's ideas then fine. what i will do is to look deaper into their thoughts and ideas and see if what they way might have some fact to it. who know's, maybe i will change my mind on an issue or two.

so to those who think that i might just be one of wb's croonies, f* off. i wake everyday knowing that life just gave me something great to look forward to. a new day of learning, listening, teaching, and exploring new venues.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by Strogian
Um.. they nailed the Jesus to a cross, remember? :)
lol Good Point. :D

[Penrich]

Originally posted by Strogian
Um.. they nailed the Jesus to a cross, remember? :) :confused: So are you saying that we should have done the same for David Koresh. Or that, essentially, we did, and thus he was truly the new messiah!

[Penrich]

Originally posted by drummerboy195
at the risk of offending any muslims out there, the christian God and the muslim allah are not the same diety. it says in the quran that allah is the great deciever, and this same descriptive phrase was used 500? years before in the new testament to describe the devil. im not certain on the refrence for the quran, i would have to do some digging, but it is there, repedtly, if i remember correctly.
Quran 1.7
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
Mohammed and Jesus are mortal prophets to the Muslims. Jesus was not the son of God, according to them, and Christians have been led astray in so believing.

My point remains however: why chose one over another?

EDIT001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
KHALIFA: In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
KHALIFA: Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe. Not quite the deceiver...

[Penrich]

Originally posted by emetib
as to the main reasons to wb's posts and replies, as i see it. he believes in what he believes. it's just that simple. what he decides to post isn't a threat to anyone unless they don't have an open mind and are so decided on their point that they have to get defensive about it. i think that these speak your mind posts/replies are great. if i don't agree with someone's ideas then fine. what i will do is to look deaper into their thoughts and ideas and see if what they way might have some fact to it. who know's, maybe i will change my mind on an issue or two.


Here here!

As an aside - how many of these religous threads did wb actually start?

Oh no - now I have just become one of his lackeys! aaarghhhh

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
snide pot shot.

Hey, two can play.;)

Wouldn't worry about it. He is only a pom. :D

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by redneckbrit
At this moment in time somewhere in cyberspace I'll bet there's a group of muslims attacking some guy who was disparaging Islam because they dislike somebody questioning their belief that it is the true religion.

A good friend of mine is a buddhist. Can you christians please tell me why your religion is right and his is not?

No they can't. Other than the bible says so. Or you have to have faith.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
That doesn't take into account a rollover where slipped some bone in my neck out, the snake bite, the NUMEROUS electric shocks over the years, the fall from a bluff when I was 14(probably not that high, but it sure seemed high back then), and the several alcohol poisonings in my younger days. Like my friends and family say, I've got nine lives...and as I always reply, "and they're all a ***** to kill".

Remind me to keep well and truely away from you if I ever end up in the same town. :D

[timbobagginsii]

Originally posted by windoze killa
No they can't. Other than the bible says so. Or you have to have faith.
You forgot about "God told me."

[williamwbishop]

posted by slapnut:
I'm just curious as to the source for WB's passion against Christianity. He says it's a passion against religion in general but I don't think he's being honest there.

You might look at the islam thread, or ask some of the islam proponents if I have not been heavy handed with them. I am an equal opportunity skeptic. And I am being honest here. Read. If the members were hindu, or shinto I would be equally eager. True, I do have a special place in my heart for the followers of abraham's god....but I pursue all equally.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by yawningdog
I personally am having a hard time believing that this forum takes a fellow like williamwbishop so seriously. The guy claims that at the tender age of 17, and so drunk he couldn't even stand up, he frightened his father so badly (with nought but a stare mind you) that pops went running inside, grabbed a shotgun and locked the door. I'm paraphrasing, because this cat isn't worth the time it takes to hunt down the post in which he regales the story.

Well, back story being that I was a juvi, in a foster home, had a penchant for violence....Yeah, he had reason.



Oh yeah, he benched 360 or something. And get a load of all the rare and wonderful museum quality books he owns. He speaks what, twelve languages? Uh-huh. I'm just waiting for the story about when he discovered cold fusion and sold it to Saudi Arabia.

I benched 310 in college, I'm working back up to it. At least get your snide comments closer to reality. I read 4 languages(with the aide of dictionaries), and speak two. And go to ebay, a 150 year old book will set you back the grand total of 9 dollars. Just because you do not strive in your life for something more does not mean others don't.


williamwbishop is just as religeous as anybody. His religeon is Secular Humanism. And, like any religeous zealot, he preaches hate for other religeons.

Religious huh, well to each his own.:rolleyes:

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
:confused: So are you saying that we should have done the same for David Koresh. Or that, essentially, we did, and thus he was truly the new messiah!

Even he said that they(government) would come persecute him, and that he would be martyred. He wanted it. Who knows, a thousand years from now, the majority of the world may be branch davidian;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by windoze killa
Remind me to keep well and truely away from you if I ever end up in the same town. :D

Most of it comes from not being cautious as an adolescent, taking chances where better sense should have prevailed. We have all done such stupid things. I grew up near smith lake, spent so much time in the woods with my friends. Great times, well except at home. :( But that happens with loser parent.;) I have not had an injury in nearly 14 years though(knock on superstitious wood). Well, unless you count my 3 year olds tendency to jump on me ;) She's split my lip and busted the old nuts on a dozen occasions at least. Almost makes me think about a no-kids-jumping-on-mom-and-dads bed in the morning rule.

[williamwbishop]

And yawningdog, if you do not live every day as if it were your last, you will find that on your last day you regret it all. A word of advice, because you obviously don't pursue the things you love. For me it is literature and family(and cigars as well, but I cannot get the ones I want, and will not risk health for aught else), for others it's cars...I'd suggest you find something.

To quote an old roman, "while you live, live."

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by Penrich
Which way is correct?

How does one know which religion to follow? Is it purely cultural? If so, is religion nothing more than tradition?
Originally posted by redneckbrit
A good friend of mine is a buddhist. Can you christians please tell me why your religion is right and his is not?
You could try this (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=What+is+the+Scientific+Method%3F&btnG=Google+Search).

[mychl]

So dave.... are you saying that before you decided which god to believe in, you took a few religions for a test drive?

Becuase that is the only way I can see the scientific method coming into play with regards to the posts you quoted above....

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by mychl
So dave.... are you saying that before you decided which god to believe in, you took a few religions for a test drive?

Well, not really. I've been raised with what I believe. However, the more I learn about the world in which I live, what other religions have to say about the world and so forth, the more convinced I have become of what I believe.

Becuase that is the only way I can see the scientific method coming into play with regards to the posts you quoted above....
Well...yes. That's pretty much what I'm proposing. I probably wouldn't have used the phrase "test drive", but if you honestly and sincerely study the world and then you do the same with the Bible, you will see that the two match up perfectly, much more perfectly than any other set of beliefs out there do.

[carlywarly]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave
You could try this (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=What+is+the+Scientific+Method%3F&btnG=Google+Search).

Ha, ha ha...brilliant. I didn't realise you were experimenting with irony, Dave.:p

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by keating305
Well, I've come back to look over the devastation; what I see is WilliamW standing head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd; I admire you WilliamW; I wouldn't have the patience to put up with the venom that these self-styled Christians spew. My only thought is that you will , in the long run, loose; they have the ultimate argument; "God told me this is the way it is"; I've yet to run into someone who has actually had a sit-down with God, but they all use the argument that God has personally told them that they're right. I firmly believe that there is a God; I just as firmly believe that any religion that says that "MY way is the ONLY way" is WRONG; God exists in every persons heart;

Saying God is in everybodies heart is saying the same thing as what you are against. God may not be in everybodies heart. He will onlt be in the hearts of everybody that believes he exists.

how you relate to him is a subjective decision; it's YOUR choice, not the choice of someone else; that's mind control, on a far greater level than any totalitarian government that ever existed. This is a dispute that has no end; it's also the reason that religious extremeists are holding the world hostage- reflect on that; it is religion that propells a young person to blow themselves up to kill people of another faith. I'm sure that someone will say that "No, it's political differences that cause suicde bombers". Well, you're WRONG- it's RELIGION; it's a short step from proslytizing to killing those who disagree with you, and that step has been taken many times in history; there have been more people killed in Gods name that for any other reason. I'm sure that all the people who've posted avocating the Christian philosophy truly believe the're right; I'm equally sure that if Jesus Christ could see the horrors that have been commited in his name, he would weep.

[vbp6us]

Well, unless you count my 3 year olds tendency to jump on me She's split my lip and busted the old nuts on a dozen occasions at least.


HAHAHAHHAH...lol. DAmnit William i just had a lip surgery dont post funny stuff like that please it hurts. :D


Wow wtf is this thread trying to discredit you and **** for?
Honestly i really admire you even though i havent met you. You seem very...Very knowledgeable and have a good personality.
I dont see you trying to "de-Christianize" anyone. IF you do and it works, the person your wasnt a good Christian to begin with then.

[Penrich]

Did you really think you'd get away with that, Dave? Bringing up Scientific Method in a debate about religion?

From one of the sites (http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html#SECTION02125000000000000000) from that Google search
But there are are theories which have the very same predictions and it is here that the [Ockham's] Razor is useful. Consider form example the following two theories aimed at describing the motions of the planets around the sun

The planets move around the sun in ellipses because there is a force between any of them and the sun which decreases as the square of the distance.
The planets move around the sun in ellipses because there is a force between any of them and the sun which decreases as the square of the distance. This force is generated by the will of some powerful aliens.
Since the force between the planets and the sun determines the motion of the former and both theories posit the same type of force, the predicted motion of the planets will be identical for both theories. the second theory, however, has additional baggage (the will of the aliens) which is unnecessary for the description of the system.
If one accepts the second theory solely on the basis that it predicts correctly the motion of the planets one has also accepted the existence of aliens whose will affect the behavior of things, despite the fact that the presence or absence of such beings is irrelevant to planetary motion (the only relevant item is the type of force). In this instance Ockham's Razor would unequivocally reject the second theory. By rejecting this type of additional irrelevant hypotheses guards against the use of solid scientific results (such as the prediction of planetary motion) to justify unrelated statements (such as the existence of the aliens) which may have dramatic consequences. In this case the consequence is that the way planets move, the reason we fall to the ground when we trip, etc. is due to some powerful alien intellect, that this intellect permeates our whole solar system, it is with us even now...and from here an infinite number of paranoid derivations.

For all we know the solar system is permeated by an alien intellect, but the motion of the planets, which can be explained by the simple idea that there is a force between them and the sun, provides no evidence of the aliens' presence nor proves their absence.
Just replace the word "alien" with "God" (or "Invisible Pink Unicorn").

I left in the last paragraph there to allow agnostics a break, but to my mind this is at the crux of all religous debate. There is no evidence for a God, thus the simplest line of reasoning to explain life, the universe and everything is to simply say that one is not required. [I personally believe that no actual God exists, but that is just me.]

[williamwbishop]

Hey, I just got elected as angriest man alive by Kcourser. I guess I can add him to my fan club now.;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by vbp6us
HAHAHAHHAH...lol. DAmnit William i just had a lip surgery dont post funny stuff like that please it hurts. :D


Wow wtf is this thread trying to discredit you and **** for?
Honestly i really admire you even though i havent met you. You seem very...Very knowledgeable and have a good personality.
I dont see you trying to "de-Christianize" anyone. IF you do and it works, the person your wasnt a good Christian to begin with then.

You got me? I think they are just trying to crucify me;) . I am just a son of god I guess[feel that impiety building]. People mistake debunking superstitious crap, with a personal affront to them. Go figure.:rolleyes: As to good personality, I don't know, I am hard to live with, I cannot laugh or cry at movies(which is sad to my wife), I cannot tolerate rudeness or an unethical person, and I am opinionated. My friends and family think me good, but hey they have too you know. It's the law;) And I don't know that I know THAT much. I think the more you know, the more you realize that there is so much that you don't know, because there is an infinite amount of knowledge that we are unable to comprehend fully due to it's complexity, and an unlimited amount of information that we will never understand or know because we are not subjected to it.

[endorphinjunkie]

Penrich,
You are using Keplar's equation for your example. This equation has been proved false by Einstein and Eddington in 1905 and 1915. We still use it though because for us it describes most orbital situation that we encounter. But for near light speed problems it fails. Ockhams razor say to use the least complicated equation. That doesn't mean that the more complex equation is false. And Einstein's equations for orbital mechanics are more complex than Keplar's.

[mychl]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave

Well...yes. That's pretty much what I'm proposing. I probably wouldn't have used the phrase "test drive", but if you honestly and sincerely study the world and then you do the same with the Bible, you will see that the two match up perfectly, much more perfectly than any other set of beliefs out there do.

Damn... I don't think I could figure out the world if I lived to be a thousand.... how'd you get it done so fast?

[Penrich]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
Penrich,
You are using Keplar's equation for your example. This equation has been proved false by Einstein and Eddington in 1905 and 1915. We still use it though because for us it describes most orbital situation that we encounter. But for near light speed problems it fails. Ockhams razor say to use the least complicated equation. That doesn't mean that the more complex equation is false. And Einstein's equations for orbital mechanics are more complex than Keplar's.

Of the two possibilities presented, the simplest is the one that does not require the aliens. Einstein and Eddington have presented more complex equations to fill in some details -- after all, a hypothesis should include all observable phenomena. That is the nature of science. Still, neither Einstein nor Eddington needed to include aliens, Gods or IPUs in their equations, did they?

[endorphinjunkie]

I was merely pointing out that that particular example wasn't the best one to use in describing Ockhams razor.

[Penrich]

And, yes, Ockham's razor can be paraphrased as "the simplest hypothesis is the one that is most probably true." Put another way, it is the one that should be tested first, and taken as a point of reference for further experimentation.

In science we formulate a hypothesis, then test it with, if possible, Yes/No type questions. If the hypothesis fails, we take the new data into consideration in making a new one. Which we then test.

Further, many of the things that once required humans to use a "God" to explain (Why does the Sun rise every morning? Why are there rainbows? Where do babies come from?) can now be explained by science. Where God may have been the simplest explanation previously, we now have a new (more complex?) theory.

In my point of view, the simplest "hypothesis" (not a true hypothesis, since it can never be proven - theory) for life on Earth (and the Universe in general) is that it does not need a God or Creator. Adding to a theory attaches baggage. Formally, yes there is a possibility that it may be true. But if the data does not need it, why bother?

[Penrich]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
I was merely pointing out that that particular example wasn't the best one to use in describing Ockhams razor.
Ooops - and I was getting so into that! :) Oh well. It was just one that I found on the first page that dungscooperdave linked to.

[endorphinjunkie]

Penrich,

I am a mathematician. We don't look at the world like most people do :D . We work with theorems. We don't use theorems because they have been proven true, we use them because no one has yet proved them false. To parphrase, nothing can be proved true, it can only be proved false. And we are a little more exacting than most. If a theorem can describe 99 out of 100 permutations, then we discard that theorem because of that one failure. Who else in the world would hold themselves to that standard?:rolleyes:

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by Penrich
Did you really think you'd get away with that, Dave? Bringing up Scientific Method in a debate about religion?

From one of the sites (http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html#SECTION02125000000000000000) from that Google search

Just replace the word "alien" with "God" (or "Invisible Pink Unicorn").

I left in the last paragraph there to allow agnostics a break, but to my mind this is at the crux of all religous debate. There is no evidence for a God, thus the simplest line of reasoning to explain life, the universe and everything is to simply say that one is not required. [I personally believe that no actual God exists, but that is just me.]
I would hope that the people on LNO would have the discernment to be able to conclude which search results are the good ones that answer their questions and which ones are just plain stupid. There is nothing wrong with attaching additional "baggage" to a hypothesis. However, it is the burden of him who includes this "extra baggage" to provide evidence that supports this "extra baggage" and show that it is indeed necessary to include this "extra baggage" in with the rest of the hypothesis.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by mychl
Damn... I don't think I could figure out the world if I lived to be a thousand.... how'd you get it done so fast?
I got off my lazy rear end and got to work on it.

[Penrich]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave
I would hope that the people on LNO would have the discernment to be able to conclude which search results are the good ones that answer their questions and which ones are just plain stupid.
I realize that you posted that search for the irony of it, and I appreciated the humor of that. But still, I couldn't help but use it anyway ;) The temptation was just too great.

There is nothing wrong with attaching additional "baggage" to a hypothesis. However, it is the burden of him who includes this "extra baggage" to provide evidence that supports this "extra baggage" and show that it is indeed necessary to include this "extra baggage" in with the rest of the hypothesis.
In my view, the extra baggage we are talking about here is God, and thus it is up to the Religous to convince the non-believer (without banging on their front door) that such extra baggage is required. You, Sir, are doing a great job at holding up your end of the debate against however many of us are arraigned against you (nothing personal ;) ), but I have yet to be convinced by anyone that there is a God.

[jbstew32]

WB: why do you care what other people believe? What do you gain by conversion?

Don't even say it's for some "greater good" because we all know that's bull****.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by Penrich

In my view, the extra baggage we are talking about here is God, and thus it is up to the Religous to convince the non-believer (without banging on their front door) that such extra baggage is required.

I recently had Mormons banging on my front door. When I asked them for their address they wanted to know why I told them I want to come and preach to them on the following saturday. At that they accepted it and was almost going to give me the address until I added that I would be bringing all the worship equipment and "Goats head". They had a look of horror on their face and asked them if they had a problem with me preaching my religion to them at their door and they told me that it would be totally offensive.

At this point I just asked them what they were doing at my door. They were about to say something about spreading the word of God but stopped mid sentence when they realised that they were about to do what they would be offended by.

Might even try to convert them next time.

PS. No I do not worship Satan. I just used the issue as a point at the time. And it worked.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by jbstew32
WB: why do you care what other people believe? What do you gain by conversion?

Don't even say it's for some "greater good" because we all know that's bull****.

I believe he is just putting his point of view across and the conversion is an added bonus.

And I am right behind him.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by jbstew32
WB: why do you care what other people believe? What do you gain by conversion?

Don't even say it's for some "greater good" because we all know that's bull****.



Well, it's not like I haven't answered this question, what....a half dozen times already?

To sum it up: Why do you dislike racism? Why do you dislike pedophilia? Why do dislike those things that promote the degradation and rape of women?

I posit that these things are detested not because they will DEFINATELY cause injury to someone, but because in ALL PROBABILITY they will. You know the history of religion, the atrocities, the slaughter and torture. Are you so sure that it cannot happen again? I am not! And I fear the day that we are called again to witness the dark ages of intolerance and destruction that come from the belief that a god wants you to do something.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by windoze killa
I believe he is just putting his point of view across and the conversion is an added bonus.

And I am right behind him.

I am warmed by the support and love of this community. Where else but the internet could people from accross the globe come together and discuss religion and politics and not end up slaughtering each other over a difference of opinion, and in fact clasp hands in friendship? I love this age so much.:)

[emetib]

you should go grab a kleenix, your eyes are starting to water. better yet, call the wife in the room so that she can see it.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by emetib
you should go grab a kleenix, your eyes are starting to water. better yet, call the wife in the room so that she can see it.

She was reading over my shoulder earlier, laughing.:D I'd call her in again, but she is in the bath, and I think may have other ideas for later...since the kids are all tucked away, and it's too cold to do anything outside for tonight and tomorrow.;)

[emetib]

sounds like your wife has a better sense of humor than you. when i go to see my uncle one of these days i'll have to drop in on you for some laughs. then i could check out your library, probably rivels mine without any problems.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by emetib
sounds like your wife has a better sense of humor than you. when i go to see my uncle one of these days i'll have to drop in on you for some laughs. then i could check out your library, probably rivels mine without any problems.

It better, it's my only decent hobby;) I'm getting antsy, I have three books that have not come in yet:( Been two weeks, one I can understand....it was in canada, but the two others aren't exactly that far away. Never been burned yet, but I'm anxious for one of them, it was such a great deal.

[williamwbishop]

And she would argue that my sense of humour is light, but that I find it hard to suspend reality(hence the no laughing or crying at movies). I'd say I enjoy a good laugh as much as the next guy.;)

[emetib]

what one are you so anxious for?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by emetib
what one are you so anxious for?

Plato, dialogues.

[emetib]

i tried to read his republic. couldn't bring myself to finish it. each time i opened it up i would fall asleep. didn't matter if i just woke up or was dead tired. something about the way that it was written or translated that got to me.

[endorphinjunkie]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Well, it's not like I haven't answered this question, what....a half dozen times already?

To sum it up: Why do you dislike racism? Why do you dislike pedophilia? Why do dislike those things that promote the degradation and rape of women?

I posit that these things are detested not because they will DEFINATELY cause injury to someone, but because in ALL PROBABILITY they will. You know the history of religion, the atrocities, the slaughter and torture. Are you so sure that it cannot happen again? I am not! And I fear the day that we are called again to witness the dark ages of intolerance and destruction that come from the belief that a god wants you to do something.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Bad things have been done by non religon leaders as well. Lenin,
Ghengis Khan, Stalin, Pol Pot, a little German corporal called Hilter.... The list could go on much longer and as far back into history as it is possible to research. Religon of any kind didn't motivate these people to mass murder and other heinous acts. You posit that the world would be better off if religons were non-exitant. I would say that there would be as much or more evil being committed in the world today without the various religons. And this is coming from, at best, an agnostic.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by emetib
i tried to read his republic. couldn't bring myself to finish it. each time i opened it up i would fall asleep. didn't matter if i just woke up or was dead tired. something about the way that it was written or translated that got to me.

Really? Personally I find I have the same problem with aristotle. I have to force myself to read him. But plato is much more readable to me. I can definately understand though. There are about a dozen authors that I have had to work hard to make it through, but they are usually worth it. I think you will find republic worth the effort though.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bad things have been done by non religon leaders as well. Lenin,
Ghengis Khan, Stalin, Pol Pot, a little German corporal called Hilter.... The list could go on much longer and as far back into history as it is possible to research. Religon of any kind didn't motivate these people to mass murder and other heinous acts. You posit that the world would be better off if religons were non-exitant. I would say that there would be as much or more evil being committed in the world today without the various religons. And this is coming from, at best, an agnostic.

You might want to go a little deeper into the lives of those you listed.

[emetib]

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg

[endorphinjunkie]

Good people can also do evil through ignorance.

[williamwbishop]

Does one consider that one doesn't do things motivated by religion, if that religion is not christianity? Is this not tacit belief that other religions are just superstitions while your professed religion is the one true way(tm).Is the destruction of people to quash religion, not included in the parcel price of religion? If one considered oneself a god or son of a god, is that not also part of the price? The price of religion in the world counts ALL those taxed for or against the name of religion.

[jbstew32]

so average people going to church every sunday are ultimately the cause of every great war in this world?

that's pretty ridiculous.

I only ask you because you have yet to give a true logical answer.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
Good people can also do evil through ignorance.

But to brutally kill thousands, even millions? That is not a good person.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by jbstew32
so average people going to church every sunday are ultimately the cause of every great war in this world?

that's pretty ridiculous.

I only ask you because you have yet to give a true logical answer.

It is the little churchgoers who become inflamed enought to mob and burn books and indeed, people. You equate might to only armies, and I tell you that the most dangerous thing on earth is a mob with the belief that they are doing a god's work.

[endorphinjunkie]

Through out history, if you weren't born into the noble classes, then your only avenue to power was through religon. It stands to reason then, if you weren't noble and wanted power, then you towed the party line, so you could gain the power you seek.

[emetib]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
Good people can also do evil through ignorance.

is it evil that those good people do, or are their actions considered wrong by the community as a whole. you could say that abortion is evil, no ifs, ands, or buts. don't get me wrong here, i don't support taking a childs life, i do support a womans right to choose. if my girl friend had an abortion i would leave her, no ifs, ands, or buts. she just killed my child. would i consider her actions evil? haven't been there so i can't honestly answer that.

so when you say that evil is done by good people you have to look at what their beliefs are also. if they believe they are doing evil then yes i would say that their actions are evil.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by endorphinjunkie
Through out history, if you weren't born into the noble classes, then your only avenue to power was through religon. It stands to reason then, if you weren't noble and wanted power, then you towed the party line, so you could gain the power you seek.

That would explain a lot. I had not thought of it in terms of *****ion in socio-economic terms. I wonder if it applied in all avenues of the church? I think this fits right well with the militant arm of the church(battle promotes faster than anything and it was well known that the knights templar were promoted through conquest), but do you think it would also apply to the more studious branches?

[endorphinjunkie]

Power struggles go on today in all religons. From the largest denominations to the smallest individual churches. They are simply less bloody today. :D

[b_usa]

Sorry to butt in on the circle jerk, but I nor nobody I know in this 26 years of life has ever burned a book or done anything remotely similar to what you imply. In fact, the majority of them give freely to charitable causes and support very socially liberal programs, and make it a point not to push their faith where it is not welcome.

It is the little churchgoers who become inflamed enought to mob and burn books and indeed, people. You equate might to only armies, and I tell you that the most dangerous thing on earth is a mob with the belief that they are doing a god's work.

[MB[DK]]

These arguments are so pointless, why ruin the good mood around here with the constant anti-stuff arguments?

Im an atheist, meaning I despise all religions, all of them. I want to cry when I think about some people spending their entire life dedicated to an obviously lost cause, mindless drones, that can't seem to be logical long enough to see the error of their ways.

Now the moral side of religions can be used for some good, but unfortunately not even the followers tend to adhere to them.

Now if I'm atheist and feel this way, then why don't I participate in these arguments?

It's pointless, people are free to do what ever they want, and they should be allowed to do what ever they want.

You wanna do drugs? Fine by me, it's you money, your body! You wanna smoke cigarettes? Fine by me, just don't come collecting when you need treatment for cancer! Wanna get an abortion? Go ahead it's your body, your choice, who are they to tell what you can, and can't do!

Does that seem harsh?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by MB[DK]
These arguments are so pointless, why ruin the good mood around here with the constant anti-stuff arguments?

Im an atheist, meaning I despise all religions, all of them. I want to cry when I think about some people spending their entire life dedicated to an obviously lost cause, mindless drones, that can't seem to be logical long enough to see the error of their ways.

Now the moral side of religions can be used for some good, but unfortunately not even the followers tend to adhere to them.

Now if I'm atheist and feel this way, then why don't I participate in these arguments?

It's pointless, people are free to do what ever they want, and they should be allowed to do what ever they want.

You wanna do drugs? Fine by me, it's you money, your body! You wanna smoke cigarettes? Fine by me, just don't come collecting when you need treatment for cancer! Wanna get an abortion? Go ahead it's your body, your choice, who are they to tell what you can, and can't do!

Does that seem harsh?

Actually...no.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by b_usa
Sorry to butt in on the circle jerk, but I nor nobody I know in this 26 years of life has ever burned a book or done anything remotely similar to what you imply. In fact, the majority of them give freely to charitable causes and support very socially liberal programs, and make it a point not to push their faith where it is not welcome.

I haven't raped a woman or molested a child in my 32 odd years. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen though does it?:rolleyes: Why is it you keep equating religion=B_usa? Just because you believe one way, or do something, or DON'T do something, religion doesnt'? You are naive.

[The Ennead IX]

I did burn part of a book once :) I'd run out of Rizzla.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by The Ennead IX
I did burn part of a book once :) I'd run out of Rizzla.

I burned a bible once(which I regret, any book is too good for such a thing, even tripe), to prove that lightning was not going to strike from the sky. I was a teenager, and as teenagers are want to be, in a large group of teenagers, outdoing each other with spectacular lapses in reason(call them stupid tricks or stunts) when someone suggested they had the best one. Who would burn the bible? This rather rough crowd, whom I thought had a little spine, well none of them, despite the fact that they were non-god fearing for the most part, would do it. So I, being the most rational of the bunch(apparently) stepped forward and lit it with a match...and it didn't burn.(too many tightly bound pages. So a little gas from the can(we were riding bikes in the strip pits) and it went up great. I was astounded that a common mythology had such a hold, that the "what if" thought kept running through their brains. But that is the way it is. Of course now....I cannot believe I did that to a book, a thing which should be sacred because it contains someones work(even if it is crap). Nowadays, I won't even open a bible more than 45 degrees, for fear of breaking the spine.

[The Ennead IX]

Yeah but at least it was for a good cause :D A lot of such things come from the familiarity breeding contempt syndrome. We adopt the rules of our enviroment which is another of the reasons that religion is such a mind-****. Everyone is so certain of his beliefs when the only reason for believing is a birthright. But, back to the point, nowadays I wouldn't do such things as i'm out of the enviroment but one of the jobs I had in my formative years involved going around tuning church organs. Spending 8-10 hours a day in churches bred such familiarity that I would think nothing of setting up a nice picnic for dinner on a gravestone or sitting through morning mass with a cig hanging out of my mouth whilst hidden away behind the bellows. I wouldn't do it now out of respect for others but in those days? no worries.

Ah well, work beckons again, have a good day sir

and all

:)

[bogler]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
I burned a bible once(which I regret, any book is too good for such a thing, even tripe), to prove that lightning was not going to strike from the sky. I was a teenager, and as teenagers are want to be, in a large group of teenagers, outdoing each other with spectacular lapses in reason(call them stupid tricks or stunts) when someone suggested they had the best one. Who would burn the bible? This rather rough crowd, whom I thought had a little spine, well none of them, despite the fact that they were non-god fearing for the most part, would do it. So I, being the most rational of the bunch(apparently) stepped forward and lit it with a match...and it didn't burn.(too many tightly bound pages. So a little gas from the can(we were riding bikes in the strip pits) and it went up great. I was astounded that a common mythology had such a hold, that the "what if" thought kept running through their brains. But that is the way it is. Of course now....I cannot believe I did that to a book, a thing which should be sacred because it contains someones work(even if it is crap). Nowadays, I won't even open a bible more than 45 degrees, for fear of breaking the spine.

Do you have 666 tatooed on your head?

Do you find that large dobermans seem to like you and numerous strangers keep trying to look out for you?

Have you ever found a pentangle under your bed or behind your shaving mirror?

WOOOOOO - Scary

The spawn of the devil is born and he is WB from Alabama :cool:

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by bogler
Do you have 666 tatooed on your head?

Do you find that large dobermans seem to like you and numerous strangers keep trying to look out for you?

Have you ever found a pentangle under your bed or behind your shaving mirror?

WOOOOOO - Scary

The spawn of the devil is born and he is WB from Alabama :cool:

Nay, none of those things. Although I think my kids the spawn of a demon some days;)

[b_usa]

I was responding directly to the "point" that you made about the regular church-goer being of a dangerous mob mentality. I am the regular church-goer, moron. Can you hear me now? Good.

[endorphinjunkie]

b_usa,
Correct me if I am wrong, but name calling is not exactly good Christian behavior. I recall learning that much in Sunday school, ever so long ago. Has the doctrine changed so much since I left?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by b_usa
I was responding directly to the "point" that you made about the regular church-goer being of a dangerous mob mentality. I am the regular church-goer, moron. Can you hear me now? Good.

An obviously well thought out and fine tuned argument.:rolleyes:

[crokett]

b_usa, I think what WB is saying is he is against mob mentality in general. He just happens to be applying it to religion in this thread. In the Milddle Ages, one churchgoer wouldn't have been a terribly effective crusader, but look what happened when you got enough of them together. In slightly more recent history, the average Southerner was probably a pretty decent person. Enough of them together formed the KKK. Again in Germany, a single German in the 1940s would probably have been a cool guy to be around - the beer would be pretty good anyway. :D Yet you get a couple million of 'em in the same room and look what happens. Tis shameful to admit that I've been caught up in a mob when I was much younger. We were broken up before we did any damage though. What we were about to do I'd never do by myself.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by crokett
b_usa, I think what WB is saying is he is against mob mentality in general. He just happens to be applying it to religion in this thread. In the Milddle Ages, one churchgoer wouldn't have been a terribly effective crusader, but look what happened when you got enough of them together. In slightly more recent history, the average Southerner was probably a pretty decent person. Enough of them together formed the KKK. Again in Germany, a single German in the 1940s would probably have been a cool guy to be around - the beer would be pretty good anyway. :D Yet you get a couple million of 'em in the same room and look what happens. Tis shameful to admit that I've been caught up in a mob when I was much younger. We were broken up before we did any damage though. What we were about to do I'd never do by myself.

nail, hammer, head!

Nationality also fits in the same category as religion when it comes to mobs. What is worse than a religious mob? A nationalist movement, approval by religion. Hence Nazi germany, a roman catholic trying to create a religion of nationlism, to stamp out traditional religions.

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by Penrich
I realize that you posted that search for the irony of it, and I appreciated the humor of that. But still, I couldn't help but use it anyway ;) The temptation was just too great.


In my view, the extra baggage we are talking about here is God, and thus it is up to the Religous to convince the non-believer (without banging on their front door) that such extra baggage is required. You, Sir, are doing a great job at holding up your end of the debate against however many of us are arraigned against you (nothing personal ;) ), but I have yet to be convinced by anyone that there is a God.
Well thank you. It appears that not all of you are quite as hostile as I had originally supposed. :)

[glaston]

But you'll never convince me nor 99.9% of the Christians you meet that we are wrong. Why? So basically you're saying that even william bishop doesn't have what it takes to cut through such indoctrination.
You're saying that the christian indoctrination runs so deep, that pure logic is no match for such magical thinking.
I'm inclined to agree with you. Not that I'm doubting wbishops ability to convert. Just that christian indoctrination is so deep, that showing them proof (if it was available) of the sham that religion is would still not be enough to make a hardcore christian disbelieve.

It's what religious people WANT to believe. Not that religion, or christianity is so undeniably true and accurate, that it's the only conclusion one could come to.

Some people need to be lied to so they can get through the day! And this is what drives the christian mindstate.
Christians are people who are living a lie, and prefer it that way.

Christianity is like a thick block of swiss cheese. It has too many holes to be bouyant, tastes and smells like old feet, but if you force yourself to eat it long enough, eventually you'll like it. In other words, like a christian, a swiss cheese eater has to be conditioned to like what he's being spoon fed.

I'm a truth seeker. I've dabbled in religion before. And it left me wondering why the hell people believe it!? I believe in science. Because unlike religion, science doesn't attempt to pursue you beyond the grave. And scientific truths are self evident. You aren't required to be conditioned for magical thinking to actually believe in science.
I'm not one to tell anyone how to live. That's what religious folk do!
I think people need to be a little more selective, and use their own head a little bit more when making grand decisions. Such as deciding that religion is true.
The world doesn't operate under what you WANT. Just cause you WANT it, doesn't make it so.
In my mind, we are alone on this planet. We don't have some big brother in the sky watching over us all, as long as we believe that his magic is real. C'mon? Are we still 7 years old here or what?
Believe what you want! But religious people act as if professing belief in something is like changing a hat. Don't be so quick to buy into the BS!
My favorite is when religious people say they "have to believe". When asked why, they say that religion is so strong in their family they have no choice. Ahh, well, does your family also tell you what color is to be your favorite? What foods you like most? Or do you find these things out on your own?

Blessed are those who find the zipper on their sheep suit! Even more blessed are the ones who have the nads to actually step out of it!!
Secularism takes alot of responsibility! Simply because there are no icons of good and evil to blame things on. Everything is the persons responsibility.
Could it be that the religious are people who have trouble taking responsibility for their lives and actions? Some, yes. The rest are just easily fooled!;)

In fact, the majority of them give freely to charitable causes and support very socially liberal programs, Oh, now there's something to be proud of! Supporting socially liberal programs!? The freakin liberals, they know not what they do. They want to effect so much change, that they pay no mind to the ill effects this change will bring.
They hate the 2nd ammendmant, they place blame for things on inanimate objects such as books, movies, music, guns. They want to rid the world of anything that has the potential to hurt anyone in any way. Plus, they hide from responsibility at any point. That's the nature of the liberal demonrat.
All the soccer moms, and idiot artists who contemplate lifes philosophies in the line at Starbucks. These self procliamed coffee prophets are nothing more than crazed lunatics, waiting for a reason to let loose. Many are homosexual to say the least.
I HATE homosexuals with an extreme passion!
And yeah, this applies to you! If you've ever takin it in the out door, I HATE YOU! You spread your filth among the living, and use our laws to protect yourselves.
This is where an allegiance with the religious comes in handy. I, like many religious folk, would rather rip the flesh from a fags bones than greet them with a happy good day!

[Penrich]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave
Well thank you. It appears that not all of you are quite as hostile as I had originally supposed. :)
Some of us are in it, not purely for the bashing of others, but also for the hope of a glimpse into the psyche of our fellow men. I for one am actually interested in the original question that started the other thread "Why do people believe?" For me, it is such a foreign concept, this "God" thing. I am not looking for faith, but a reason to understand why people have faith. Of course, some of it comes off as bashing, and some of it may be bashing (if I get too carried away ;) )

[dungscooperdave]

Originally posted by Penrich
Some of us are in it, not purely for the bashing of others, but also for the hope of a glimpse into the psyche of our fellow men. I for one am actually interested in the original question that started the other thread "Why do people believe?" For me, it is such a foreign concept, this "God" thing. I am not looking for faith, but a reason to understand why people have faith. Of course, some of it comes off as bashing, and some of it may be bashing (if I get too carried away ;) )
:cool: I never actually did answer that question in the other thread.... I just kinda started picking at the responses other people had made. I need to think about it for a while first, though, and then maybe I'll be able to provide you and everyone else with a worthy post.

[Elijah]

So a thread called wb can get at least 200 posts and get 5 votes even .... and counting!

[Penrich]

Originally posted by Elijah
So a thread called wb can get at least 200 posts and get 5 votes even .... and counting! Hey - all it takes is one vote to get 5 stars (as long as that one vote is for 5 stars, mind). Believe me - I just tried it on the Why Religion thread too :D Anyone who doesn't agree can go give it (and this thread too) one star if they like.

[glaston]

Always to extremes are the religious. When one disagrees with religion, or debates it, the religious assume they hate god. How can one hate something that doesn't exist?
My frustration of religious people, often comes from an unwillingness to understand my perspective on their part. And quoting scripture to me to prove their point. how do they think scripture is gonna make me believe, when scripture is part of the reason I DON'T believe.
I view scripture quoting as a knee jerk reaction. When a religious person can't back up a claim with logic, then it's time to start quoting scripture. When that doesn't work, they try and make you feel as if something is wrong with you for not believing. When that doesn't work, then they start telling you how sorry they feel for you not believing.
When that doesn't work, they pull out the fear tactics.
They think they're doing their duty by spreading the word. All they're doing in my case is reinforcing my disbelief.

If I were satan, and there was a challenge between me and god that I could win over his followers. What would I do???
Write the bible and pass it off as gods word!!
Is this something that is documented as being against the rules in the war of good vs. evil?
If so, how and why? If not, then why don't you religious folks think of it as a valid possibilty?
If you do think of it as a valid possibility, why do you still follow the book?
Can someone tell me exactly why this scenario is impossible?

Many christians say-"If you follow god and it turns out to be true, then you're saved. If it turns out to be NOT true, then you're really not out anything." You are though. In that case, you walked through life sealed in a jar of lies. When you could've been searching for the real truth.

[skidhmor]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
That would explain a lot. I had not thought of it in terms of *****ion in socio-economic terms. I wonder if it applied in all avenues of the church? I think this fits right well with the militant arm of the church(battle promotes faster than anything and it was well known that the knights templar were promoted through conquest), but do you think it would also apply to the more studious branches?

I would think that it would apply even more so to the more studious braches of the church. After all, what other outlet would there be for the studios 'nerd' types born to dirt poor families?
Extensive collections of books, as well as the oppurtunity to learn how to read them, were the perogative of the rich, the noble born, and the Church.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by dungscooperdave
Well thank you. It appears that not all of you are quite as hostile as I had originally supposed. :)

None of us are as hostile as you suppose. Well, maybe B_usa...;) We all have our hot points, mine is religion and predators. But overall, we are all for the most part, pretty relaxed people. The problem is, when someone is attacking your belief systems, you do not think about it rationally, you take it as a personal affront and feel slighted. It's not personal, it's discussion.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by b_usa
I was responding directly to the "point" that you made about the regular church-goer being of a dangerous mob mentality. I am the regular church-goer, moron. Can you hear me now? Good.

I would never have guessed it. You are a regular church-goer moron.

Ooops. Sorry. Didn't see the comma.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by williamwbishop
None of us are as hostile as you suppose. Well, maybe B_usa...;)

No. Not B_usa. He is a good god fairing church-goer moron.

Bugger. Keep forgetting about that comma. :D

[Penrich]

Originally posted by windoze killa
No. Not B_usa. He is a good god fairing church-goer moron.

Bugger. Keep forgetting about that comma. :D
Thats "God-fearing". Always loved that description for a follower of a loving God :rolleyes:

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Penrich
Thats "God-fearing". Always loved that description for a follower of a loving God :rolleyes:

A lot to fear there, if you believe.;)

[glaston]

Problem is that religious people don't know why they believe. And questioning it is a sin for them. They get upset when we challenge them, because it makes them have to examine their beliefs. And since we require 'logic' to make grand distinctions, they know they can't provide us with a logical reason for their beliefs. So they have to dance around the subject, and pull out all the religious tactics like fear, confusion, personal stories.

Blessed are WE, who need no almighty god to live a good life and deal with our problems and peoples.

Unfortunate it is that you religious need to believe in magic in order to live your life well!
It's even more unfortunate that the religious don't see any way to live a good life without god and religion.
So, who's sorry?

[Strogian]

Originally posted by glaston
Problem is that religious people don't know why they believe. And questioning it is a sin for them. They get upset when we challenge them, because it makes them have to examine their beliefs. And since we require 'logic' to make grand distinctions, they know they can't provide us with a logical reason for their beliefs. So they have to dance around the subject, and pull out all the religious tactics like fear, confusion, personal stories.

Blessed are WE, who need no almighty god to live a good life and deal with our problems and peoples.

Unfortunate it is that you religious need to believe in magic in order to live your life well!
It's even more unfortunate that the religious don't see any way to live a good life without god and religion.
So, who's sorry?

Do I sense some hostility? :)

[timbobagginsii]

Originally posted by Strogian
Do I sense some hostility? :)
I thought it was just me...

[Shodan]

Quoted from WB
Of course there are conspiracies, there always have been and always will be. It is human nature to get involved in such things, more fun yet to create them and carry them out. There is something so satisfying about playing chess with people. I know it is a touch wrong, but if you have someone's best interests at heart, really, is it wrong? As long as you give them a way out, and plenty of opportunity to get free, I see no true problems with it.

I apologize in advance - havent gotten to the end of the posts - but it occurs to me that sentiment such as that above may have given rise to the whole concept of organized religion.

[slapNUT]

Billy Bishop
A lot to fear there, if you believe.

You people like to take every passage of the bible out of context. I'm no biblical scollar by any stretch of the imagination but even a dumbass like me knows the reference to God fearing means fear god not teh devil DOH!

God controlls your fate not the devil. The devil of course is whatever you make it to be... your own personal trials and tribulations and weather you knowingly choose whats right or whats wrong.

[slapNUT]

No. Not B_usa. He is a good god fairing church-goer moron.
Do posts such as this make you feel better?
If you answered yes then you are a "non-church-goer moron."

Actually I being scarcastic. I wouldn't be so rude to you. Weather you deserved it or not.

You need to chill windoz-killa. We churchgoers are not all morons.

[slapNUT]

You people need to understand that this is a Linux BBS. The reason no one cares much about your tirades against christianity is that we are here to think learn and help with Linux. You people on the other hand are here to bash, spit upon and ridicule any christian believers in the group.

I'm a Christian Linux user. I believe in Jesus Christ, I always will. I also use Linux. If you don't like that too bad. Expend great amounts of energy trying to change my beliefs if you like. W00t you failed.

Hey tomorrow... w00t you failed.

You always fail... DO YOU UNDERSTAND!

[endorphinjunkie]

SlapNut,
I will have to agree with you on that one. Not all church goers are less than intellegent. My brother is a devout Christian, and he is a nuclear engineer. He finished college in 3 &1/2 years. By no means can you call him stupid. (I reserve that for myself)...:D Why? He won't let his girls read or see the movies about Harry Potter, because it deals with wizards and Witchcraft. But he lets them read and see the movies about the Lord of the Rings trilogy. I pointed out the fact, that Gandolf is a wizard and uses witchcraft, but that did not phase him. (This is on top of both being nothing but fiction).

Point? Even smart people somethings have lapses in judgement. It's a human thing.

[endorphinjunkie]

Originally posted by slapNUT
You people need to understand that this is a Linux BBS. The reason no one cares much about your tirades against christianity is that we are here to think learn and help with Linux. You people on the other hand are here to bash, spit upon and ridicule any christian believers in the group.

I'm a Christian Linux user. I believe in Jesus Christ, I always will. I also use Linux. If you don't like that too bad. Expend great amounts of energy trying to change my beliefs if you like. W00t you failed.

Hey tomorrow... w00t you failed.

You always fail... DO YOU UNDERSTAND!

SlapNUT,
Chill a moment. If your faith is strong, then these characters won't be able to rattle you.

[slapNUT]

endorphinjunkie
Give your brother a little slack. Parenting in the 2000's is tough. I have 5 kids myself which span the spectrum from a 5 year old boy to an 18 year old single parent girl.

We were worried about the HarryPotter films too but I told the wife that we let them watch the "Wizzard of
OZ" so whats the difference?

I dont think kids can be turned into devil worshipers by movies or books. I've read the Hobbit and all the Trillogy books. I loved them and may read them again one day. Tell your brother to stop burning books.

[endorphinjunkie]

SlapNUT,
My brother doesn't burn books. He would consider that "sacrilious". ;)

[slapNUT]

Thats good cause there are many here who would suggest you burn every BIBLE in your home.

Please don't! They are very useful books if you don't have a predispositioned(sp?) hatered of them.

[glaston]

Do I sense some hostility? None at all. Just stating observations. You have the right to your beliefs, and the right to try and pass them off on others. I then have the right to try and debunk it.
When I personally make statements questioning the logic of religion, I'm not directing it at those who are arguing in favor of it. It's more of a display for those who are on the fence who might be lurking. It doesn't do much good to argue head on with someone who already believes enough to challenge you. But maybe you can shed some light on those who are watching the festivities.
Those who already question religion, they see that there is substance to the argument against it. Those who already believe, seem to be blinded by their faith.
Oh well. You made the choice. And you seem to want to live it. Who am I to tell you not to?

You religious think you have a right to go around preaching , but when someone challenges that or preaches against it, you act as if your sovereignty has been violated. And label us god haters, or some other bogus term that makes sense only to you.
And you tell us to grow up!?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
You people like to take every passage of the bible out of context. I'm no biblical scollar by any stretch of the imagination but even a dumbass like me knows the reference to God fearing means fear god not teh devil DOH!

God controlls your fate not the devil. The devil of course is whatever you make it to be... your own personal trials and tribulations and weather you knowingly choose whats right or whats wrong.

But if you were to follow the holy IPU, she does not require you to fear her. What deity would find the fear of them of particular value is what you should be asking.;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
You people need to understand that this is a Linux BBS. The reason no one cares much about your tirades against christianity is that we are here to think learn and help with Linux. You people on the other hand are here to bash, spit upon and ridicule any christian believers in the group.

I'm a Christian Linux user. I believe in Jesus Christ, I always will. I also use Linux. If you don't like that too bad. Expend great amounts of energy trying to change my beliefs if you like. W00t you failed.

Hey tomorrow... w00t you failed.

You always fail... DO YOU UNDERSTAND!

So is it no one cares much about our tirades, or is it that they do? Sure seems they do to me.;)

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by slapNUT
Thats good cause there are many here who would suggest you burn every BIBLE in your home.

Please don't! They are very useful books if you don't have a predispositioned(sp?) hatered of them.

Praytell, who among us suggests to burn books?

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glaston
None at all. Just stating observations. You have the right to your beliefs, and the right to try and pass them off on others. I then have the right to try and debunk it.
When I personally make statements questioning the logic of religion, I'm not directing it at those who are arguing in favor of it. It's more of a display for those who are on the fence who might be lurking. It doesn't do much good to argue head on with someone who already believes enough to challenge you. But maybe you can shed some light on those who are watching the festivities.
Those who already question religion, they see that there is substance to the argument against it. Those who already believe, seem to be blinded by their faith.
Oh well. You made the choice. And you seem to want to live it. Who am I to tell you not to?

You religious think you have a right to go around preaching , but when someone challenges that or preaches against it, you act as if your sovereignty has been violated. And label us god haters, or some other bogus term that makes sense only to you.
And you tell us to grow up!?


Glaston...Amigo....That was succinct, and honest. And totally on target. Very well done.:)

[emetib]

Originally posted by slapNUT
You people need to understand that this is a Linux BBS. The reason no one cares much about your tirades against christianity is that we are here to think learn and help with Linux. You people on the other hand are here to bash, spit upon and ridicule any christian believers in the group.

I'm a Christian Linux user. I believe in Jesus Christ, I always will. I also use Linux. If you don't like that too bad. Expend great amounts of energy trying to change my beliefs if you like. W00t you failed.

Hey tomorrow... w00t you failed.

You always fail... DO YOU UNDERSTAND!

slapnut,

originally posted by slapnut
Just an observation from a friendly fan. You do make alot of good points. But you'll never convince me nor 99.9% of the Christians you meet that we are wrong. Why? It's real simple William. If you live a Christian life and you are right about Christ then you are rewarded. If you live a Christian life and you are wrong about Christ then what have you lost? Nothing as far as I know.

i really don't think that wb is trying to make you, or other christians, stop believing in god. he's pointing out problems with the scripture. as he has said before "great, if you believe than you believe".

originally posted by wb
I will discredit religion as long as I live. And if it doesn't change your mind, that is no loss to me, it will others. Even if it didn't, I would do it anyway. Don't you have something you believe in?

now i would guess that you on the other hand must be starting to have doubts with where your faith lies and the beliefs that you have, since these posts are starting to bother you more and more.

originally posted by wb
What belief systems have I take away from someone, other than religion? I typically don't say, "you're wrong". I will generally give information related to the topic, and give an alternate way of seeing things. Perhaps you would enlighten me by showing me the thread where I took away someone's belief in something. I generally stand pretty neutral in most things.

so as you can see your wasting your time trying to make wb stop, with your quips, trying to change you from a christian to a hethen, as stated before by you. you have to remember also that it was you who opened up this thread, not him, so when looking for something to blame this topic on i would say you can only look to yourself. your reactions are what started up the board, not any of ours. in the future, i would suggest that you don't react towards people's behaviors and then blame them for those reactions. i believe that christ said to turn the other check, so to this i have to say that maybe you should do the same and turn away from this thread and let us have some fun, and others that are open minded enough to explore the thoughts of non-christians, pagans, atheists, and all of the others that have replied to this thread to keep having an open discussion.

thanks.

oh, by the way, we would have made it to 1000 replies in why religion is you hadn't opened up this thread.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by emetib
slapnut,


oh, by the way, we would have made it to 1000 replies in why religion is you hadn't opened up this thread.

We WILL make it to 1000.:)

[emetib]

i know, i should have said, 'already'.

i just love him coming back and trying to prove that we'll never open up his mind.

had a friend call me tonight. the one who wanted me to take that bible class that i said "these people are frickin crazy" about. his wife asked me, first question "are you a catholic now?". ah, no.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by emetib
i know, i should have said, 'already'.

i just love him coming back and trying to prove that we'll never open up his mind.

had a friend call me tonight. the one who wanted me to take that bible class that i said "these people are frickin crazy" about. his wife asked me, first question "are you a catholic now?". ah, no.

Because you thought that they were a little nutsy, they assumed you must be catholic? Wow. I take it catholics are their mortal enemy? How scary is that, when those who've been known to burn people alive dislike you? And most catholics I know are so mild, I'm surprised that they are worried about them enough to assume that they would dislike their faith right off the bat.