Goodbye linux!

[RedHat 8 Newbie]

I find that linux, even though a great all round os, not good for most needs. I was atraccted to it because I knew that there was so much that you could do.

After about 10 different distro's (Red Hat, Lycoris, Mandrake to name a few) I went back to Windows 2000.

The problems I had with this was:
a) No easy DVD (In most)
b) I had problems with my printers
c) I had no internet
d) Not easy to use
e) I could name so many more!

I know I will be flamed for this but I think more work is required before linux becomes mainstream.

I found it an achievement to just get halfway through an install let alone all through it! But in Windows, it took me 1 hour to get a fully working system (Office, DVD, so on)! It only took me 2 WEEKS!! to get half that done in linux.

As I said before, I will probably get flamed for this but really, linux has to mature a bit before it is really good. You never know, I might go back in a few years and find linux the best ever os but for now, i'm sticking with windows 2000.

I almost forgot to mention compatibility. When choosing my linux applications I had to very carefully check that their files would work with Windows and Office. I know a lot of people who use windows so I needed that support.

At the end of the day, I also realised I needed Visual Basic 6, Office XP and a few others, and when wine didn't work properly and VMware was so slow my linux experience ended.

So goodbye to linux, once you mature and get better software and hardware support, I might turn back, but for now, Cya.

RedHat 8 Newbie
rh8n@tpj.cjb.net

[bosox79]

Originally posted by RedHat 8 Newbie
I find that linux, even though a great all round os, not good for most needs. I was atraccted to it because I knew that there was so much that you could do.

After about 10 different distro's (Red Hat, Lycoris, Mandrake to name a few) I went back to Windows 2000.

The problems I had with this was:
a) No easy DVD (In most)
b) I had problems with my printers
c) I had no internet
d) Not easy to use
e) I could name so many more!

I know I will be flamed for this but I think more work is required before linux becomes mainstream.

I found it an achievement to just get halfway through an install let alone all through it! But in Windows, it took me 1 hour to get a fully working system (Office, DVD, so on)! It only took me 2 WEEKS!! to get half that done in linux.

As I said before, I will probably get flamed for this but really, linux has to mature a bit before it is really good. You never know, I might go back in a few years and find linux the best ever os but for now, i'm sticking with windows 2000.

I almost forgot to mention compatibility. When choosing my linux applications I had to very carefully check that their files would work with Windows and Office. I know a lot of people who use windows so I needed that support.

At the end of the day, I also realised I needed Visual Basic 6, Office XP and a few others, and when wine didn't work properly and VMware was so slow my linux experience ended.

So goodbye to linux, once you mature and get better software and hardware support, I might turn back, but for now, Cya.

RedHat 8 Newbie
rh8n@tpj.cjb.net

sorry to see you go, but each to his own, use the OS That best meets your needs :)

[carrja99]

I really wish people would stop saying that it is Linux that has problems with thier computer or thier needs, when it is really the person using linux. I use all the things you mention just fine! The only thing Windows offers me that Linux doesn't is Visual Basic and Access, and of course numerous PC games.

[Dun'kalis]

Well, umm...Most distros install OpenOffice nowadays, which is nearly 100% compatible with MS Office.

The reason you had trouble with your printer is because only a few companies write Linux drivers. My printer, a Canon S520, uses a driver from a different printer.

Internet is because of Microsoft's stranglehold on the modem industry. Most modems you get are winmodems, and only work in Windows.

If you're willing to pay a bit to try a final time, I'd try Xandros. Its $100, but it has a bunch of stuff bundled that you'd like.

Unix is about as mature an operating system as you'll find. Its just...weird at times.

As for VB6...LEARN PYTHON. THAT IS ALL.

;)

Good luck!

[carrja99]

At the end of the day, I also realised I needed Visual Basic 6, Office XP and a few others, and when wine didn't work properly and VMware was so slow my linux experience ended.
[/B][/QUOTE]
OH!!! OpenOffice isn't good enough for ya!? It works fine for me, not to mention it is completely compatible with MS OFFICE... as I transfer files between home and work and I only use linux at home. Oh! And did you try Mandrake 9.0? It did a complete install in about 30 minutes and had everything set up perfectly (except my winmodem. Blame ****ING microsoft for that, not linux). Winmodem works now, but I use my eth0 to connect to the net, so it is ireelevant.

Please... before you bash linux and say it needs to mature and that it sucks ***, please realize that perhaps you just didn't have any luck with it.

After using linux for 7 months now, I see no possible way I would ever move back into Bill's nice warm arms! :D

[e_mpika]

yup, linux needs to mature. well done for finding out. and thanks for another post about it.

:p

[AreaOne]

Wow....well, good luck with your Windows box dude! Hopefully, when the time is right you will ease back to the GOOD side of personal computing!!

[Valorin]

Linux isn't meant for the mainstream anyway, so it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to get easier (although it most certainly is going to) because it's for a different type of person. If you're satisfied with Windows then by all means that's great. But if you're looking for more power and value, and are willing to get a book and spend time working on it, Linux is so much better.

[rdlevan]

This would be a perfect scenario to dual boot Win2k and Linux. You could essentially let Linux lie dormant on your system inside a small partition and check back here frequently to see if the functionality has been added to update your Linux kernel.

I never think that dropping Windows and moving to Linux should be a black and white issue. I use both at the same time, functioning mainly in a Windows environment then finding software in Linux that performs the same function. I don't try to make the switch all at once.

Slowly though, the programs I have found where Linux does have an equivalent to what Microsoft has to offer are used with greater frequency.

It's great that you made the attempt to switch over, but I wouldn't count it out altogether. Also, don't make the mistake of thinking you need to buy the latest release of Linux to jump back into it again. Keep what you have, recompile the kernel to the most recent one and your set.

Best of luck and hope you stick around.

[bwkaz]

Well, I hope you like getting ***-raped by Billy Boy's latest license agreements...

[bdl]

Do you ever wonder if there are Windows forums out there with a bunch of 'Goodbye Windows!!' posts? Who the hell cares if you're going to STOP using Linux? Just stop. You don't have to author a lengthy message as to the exact reasons you personally choose to stop using an OS.

[Hayl]

Originally posted by bdl
Do you ever wonder if there are Windows forums out there with a bunch of 'Goodbye Windows!!' posts? Who the hell cares if you're going to STOP using Linux? Just stop. You don't have to author a lengthy message as to the exact reasons you personally choose to stop using an OS.

ditto

[RedHat 8 Newbie]

I don't think I really said enough in my first post. I work with lots of people who use Visual Basic and Access both of which I can't get to work.

I completly agree with dual booting but sadly I only have a 4 gb hdd so I really don't have the space.

bosox79 says what he should have, choose the best OS for your needs.

Sorry to get all you guys in a fluster, that message was more directed at programmers who would fix difficulties like that.

I also want to say thanks to you guys who helped me along my linux way.

All I am saying is that it is not a full goodbye I may come back at some other time when I see linux fit for my use.

I don't mean to whine JohnT! I only want to point out devolopment points for future revisions of linux.

As for the licensing agreements from "Billy Boy" I get all the prerelease software, so sorry about that!

Really, you should all listen to bosox79.

So goodbye again and sorry for getting all you guys in a fluster.

Thanks for all your help again.

RedHat 8 Newbie
rh8n@tpj.cjb.net

(about using mandrake, it wouldn't install on any of my 4!! computers)

[Samba_man]

:D

Just how do you........

......Smoke Slack?

:D Hehe!

[wowewo]

You just have to buy devices that are linux compatible. I'm assuming you took all your old windows devices and assumed they would be compatible as well. That's like taking mak hardware and trying to stuff it in a PC.

[medrewsclues]

Originally posted by bdl
Do you ever wonder if there are Windows forums out there with a bunch of 'Goodbye Windows!!' posts? Who the hell cares if you're going to STOP using Linux? Just stop. You don't have to author a lengthy message as to the exact reasons you personally choose to stop using an OS.

translation: dont let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

[BaVinic]

All I can add to this thread is my opinion;

Windows has it's place in the world, of that there is no doubt, I too use VB6Pro, but am learning others at the same time in Linux, python for one.

But alas, I still use XP for some of my gaming, and I say some, because everyday I get more and more of them working in Linux, UT for one, runs so much better in Linux, that I uninstalled it from Windows, same with Half-life and all the HL off springs.

I must admit, I am finding a lot of complaints about VMWare, and I am amazed, my computer is no supoer computer, but VMWare runs windows 2K and all the stuff I need 2k for, without a problem ( at least for me). I love it. but it too will pass, once I get some of my custom programs converted over to Linux compatable.

Linux requires not only time but dedication to get it up and running, it is not a Plug-n-Play OS, but some flavors are getting there, RH8 I hear is pretty close. but again, you need updated hardware to take advantage of that, a 4g hd just is not big enough any more.

I hate to see anyone drop Linux, because I know if they had the time, and support, they would love it as much as I do, however, I can surely understand that if it is not working for you right now, that you need to do what does work for you. Just remember, linux will always be here, and you will always be welcomed here (LNO)

Good Luck, and come back soon.

:)

BaVinic

[Tempus77]

just cut Redhat 8 Newbie some slack, would u guys? Not everyone has an easy time learning linux.....some of us have it harder than others...........

Anyway, hang in there, and i hope u come back soon.

cheers.

[rid3r]

I believe you will be back.
As a programmer, you can't ignore Open Source.
There are so many languages besides Visual Basic... :)

[williamwbishop]

Don't know if the previous guy's posts are trolls or not, so I will withhold judgement....but....oh well, good luck, no loss.

[Prophet621]

I know how you feel Redhat 8 Newbie, but as some others said, you'll probably be back. I have installed and deleted Linux to reclaim space at least two dozen times. Every few months I come back and see what's changed.

Your right in my opinion, linux is no where near ready for mainstream (still has a LONG way to go), and also as someone else said, I don't think it's meant to. Many people would love it and someday it may happen, but not any time soon.

I like linux and think it has huge potential, and for some users it's all they need and it does everything they want/need it to do. For me, it serves no purpose other than something to play around with when I don't feel like doing anything remotely important. There it sits on a little 3 gig partition waiting for me to come back and play around a bit more.. still waiting for me to get my sound to work :) Which it never will unless I find a distro that will configure it right durring the install.

Linux is getting better, it's come a long way since I first installed it 3 years ago, but it's still not for everyone.. or even most and not really for me but I do still like to play with it sometimes. Eventually I may even get around to trying to learn it.. with it's godforsaken CLI and FUBAR software installation...maybe :)

It's always here when I want to try again and it will be here for you too. Dont let the some of the people here get to you. Most are good and incredibly helpful (as you know), some just get entirely too defensive if someone says anything remotely negative about their precious linux.

[posw2ksocks]

I don't understand why some of you azzwipes seek the need to jump on redhat8newbie just because he can't make linux work for him and his needs. If you guys are so proficient at linux & don't understand how others can NOT use only linux then maybe it's time for you know-it-alls to graduate to a heylookatmeiknowallthereistoknowaboutlinux forum. As for me, switching to linux has made my life hell with its cryptic commands to get some of the most basic things to work but I know I just have to do my time as I did with learning windows for the first time. I've thrown my linux manuals & bible across the room countless times in frustration. That is why I come here...to get some encouragement and support from others struggling to make that same switch over to linux. It's pretty sad to see people quick to flame ya just cause you can't stick with it. All I can say is good luck to your switch back to windows and if you are willing to put in the time [seriously] with linux, most of us are here to help.

[DFo3D]

The points made here are re-iterated over and over...so I'll say this instead.

The blind guiding the blind will fall into a ditch.....

this applies to all Windows users who don't care to read EULA's......which is one reason I am part of the Linux community. Someone who does not read the EULA, I for one don't mind him leaving this community and I will scornfully kick his *** out the door. So GOOD RIDDANCE YOU WIMPS, QUIT POLLUTING THIS COMMUNITY TILL YOU'RE READY TO PAY ATTENTION.

(strickly a message for Linux users who whine before trying what they are instructed to do and say "goodbye Linux)

[Hena]

I wonder, why RH8 newbie didn't ask for help about problems that he had. I read all his posts and none mentioned any problems....

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Hena
I wonder, why RH8 newbie didn't ask for help about problems that he had. I read all his posts and none mentioned any problems....

c) I had no internet :D :D

[JohnT]

(Excerpt from a post dated Nov 2002 by RHNewbie)

Thanks

I just want to thank all those linux gurus out there that sit down and answer our (sometimes stupid) questions about linux. It is because of you that all the linux newbie's stay with linux and don't use it just for a week and give up. You have to remember that we were all newbies once!!

[jaygee432]

When the foo sh*ts where it ?:confused:

[BaVinic]

Wanna know what I hate? well I'm gonna tell you anyway.

I hate people, who have this attitude that "I Use linux, so I am smarter and better than you" or who think "You are giving up, you are worthless"

Give me a f***ing break here, you self centered little bas*ards. how dare you? this forum was created to HELP the newbies, not to bash them whenever the mood hits you, RHNewbie could not get RH8 to work for him, and instead of showing support for him ( which some of us tried to do) you bash and insult him. How f***ing rude.

I send many people to this forum for support and to find the answer they need to be able to enjoy Linux, and even though 99.9% of them have found this forum helpful, I fear sending anyone else here because of this kind of bashing.

there is no need of this, just because a person chooses to use Windows over Linux, does not make them stupid, and just because you use linux does not make you smarter, get off you high horses and stop bashing this person.

I've said my bit.

BaVinic

[Hena]

I'm not saying i'm smarter or better. I just saying that if you have been using windows (and practicing also) 5 years, don't expect to learn linux in seconds... Windows is easy, since your used to it.

Besides. I use windows as well as linux. So what. Use what you want, but complaing about not getting everything on a silver platter is not very good.

[b_usa]

All you dorks who are bashing this guy just for quitting Linux need to get a life. It's a computer operating system. Maybe he didnt have the time or patience. So what. Goddamn, get a life, you morons. You guys are good at knowing Linux, B.F.D. So you sat around on your *** for days in front of a computer. Grow up.:p

[medrewsclues]

Originally posted by b_usa
All you dorks who are bashing this guy just for quitting Linux need to get a life. It's a computer operating system. Maybe he didnt have the time or patience. So what. Goddamn, get a life, you morons. You guys are good at knowing Linux, B.F.D. So you sat around on your *** for days in front of a computer. Grow up.:p


so what youre like better than all of us? you didnt sit on your A$$ for days in front of a computer and those of us that did are less than you? how considerate of you to take the time from your superior life and talk to us. you non-dork super-stud you.

[Lemming]

I've only really had 3 hardware problems with RH 8

1) No hardware accel for GF2MX as default, easilly fixed by the NVIDIA drivers
2) Internal modem doesn't work (gets recognised as winmodem when it aint), no big deal I just use my external instead
3) RH 8 went slightly mad when I had 2 soundcards after forgetting to disable the onboard so I had to reinstall. Again no big deal it took about 30min while I was eating.

All in all I must have formatted around 5-6 times getting my Linux system "perfect". But now it's done I have a stupidly stable machine which I can play all my Tribes 2 clan matches on (having aquired the Linux version of T2 which happens to run alot better then the windows version).

I've tried to crash the machine on purpose a few times, all it will usually do is crash 1 ap which can be killed via the system monitor.

[Matt9876]

Why Goodbye ?

Just set up your machine up as a dual boot.

Win and Linux on the same box.
(It works and linux mounts Win files)

Linux does many things better,faster than Windows, Why give it up ?


Read here how I set up a triple boot Linux MD,XP and Win98


http://linuxnewbie.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79951

[Ahimsa]

Sorry that your experience was not that good for you. At least you tried to get your feet wet, which is more than many people who slam Linux do.
Originally posted by RedHat 8 Newbie
I find that linux, even though a great all round os,
I'm curious about this comment in light of what else you wrote - what are you referring to?

not good for most needs. I was atraccted to it because I knew that there was so much that you could do.

In many respects, I think this cuts to the chase in these Linux is better/worse than debates. When I first switched to Linux about 18 months ago, it was only partially - using my Win98 machine for work and my RH7.2 box for experimentation. My learning curve with Linux was steeeeeep, but the hardest part to get my head around was that (a) Linux is NOT and never will be Windows (was that a chorus of cheering I hear from the Board??? :) ) and I restricted myself unnecessarily by trying to make Linux a Win clone, and (b) that using Linux required that I be prepared to put something into it - which again makes sense: reap what you sow and all that jazz. Now, I have dumped my Win98 box, and am a firm supporter of Linux - and my investment of time and mental energy is paying off. Now when I go to work I have to use Win NT and it is a major pain in the a**, frequent stalls and hangs, crashes, exceptions, blah!!! I come home and even just looking at my GUI desktop gives me a warm feeling. I also know - and this is invaluable that if I have questions/problems/difficulties I can post a message to these Boards and some bright and well-informed person is going to send me an email or post publically with a suggestion, or a link, or a resolution. Community is hard to come by, and one of the great things about Linux and I guess OSS in general is its community (cue violins and weeping). You won't find that with Win.
Anyway, sorry that you are going - you have to do what's right for you. Good luck and if you do return, let us know (hopefully not too many of us will crow and say "we told you so" !!!:) )

[vbp6us]

Well the good things about linux take over the bad things(if any) about linux by far. Remeber, you only tried on flavor of linux. You still have like 10 other choices left. Try SuSE or Mandrake. You wont be disappointed. If your a quiter than thats a whole notha stroy brotha. Good luck w/ Windoze and you will be back...guarantee it. ;)

[phyte]

zipslack will fix the space hurdle...

Plus you wont even need the headaches of dual boot, and you can learn the in's and outs of linux command line from the comfort of your windows install..rhnewbie...

Give peace*cough*zipslack* a chance :)..

What would have happened if luke had given into the darkside eh?..Well the emperor would have won wouldn't he and i wouldnt have seen yoda do the matrix in attack of the clones....If bill gates wins i wont see slackware do the matrix in my dementia years...:).If we keep pecking we might take out his eye.

[williamwbishop]

Hey, don't care if he comes or goes, I'm here for the company...linux works fine for me, but I use unix primarily, and only use windows because it is my workstation at work. My only problem comes when I have seen the 50th user who leaves little info about themselves, posts little, and even less for hardware problems and then leaves with a big "Sorry linux doesn't fit my needs". It's called turfing. Don't know if he's doing it or not, but all of you remember it was a huge problem for a long time. Msoft cronies would join up, hang around a little while and post the the same problems for the thousandth time, then leave with a grandiose, I tried it but it just doesn't fit my needs like windows, or "its just too hard and you guys don't help". Even though no help was ever asked. They are fudsters, and I got tired of them. Like I said, don't know if he is or not, but there's been a huge resurgence in them everywhere of late, and lately I've been seeing a lot of those kind of "goodbye" posts again here. Just something to think about.

[Tempus77]

just a thought, for most of u who are still posting to this thread to either bash him or bid him goodbye or ask him why, u ever thought that RedHat 8 Newbie might no longer be using this site anymore??

just a thought though........:p

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by Tempus77
just a thought, for most of u who are still posting to this thread to either bash him or bid him goodbye or ask him why, u ever thought that RedHat 8 Newbie might no longer be using this site anymore??

just a thought though........:p

Mine was said for the crowd, don't feed the bears.

[yinrunning]

It's funny that I think I agree with pretty much everyone who's posted so far to some extent. I can definitely see many sides to the argument. I think the two basic points I'd add to this already bloated thread are:

-If you want Linux to be better, write some code. That's the whole deal with a volunteer OS. Nobody - not even employees of major distros from what I understand - gets paid to write core Linux code. So, expand your horizons a little and get some programming experience outside of VB to boot. Of course, this requires actually taking the time to learn what code needs to be written where and the processes for testing it with others and adding it to the core of the OS.

-I'm a newbie, too, and I run 2 dual-boots. I'm learning as I go, slowly. I still use Windows when I need to get something cranked out fast, but that's only because through years of use I know it better , and because it's so much more idiot-friendly (and I'm a pretty big idiot :D). However, I know that once I get really proficient with Linux, it has the potential to offer me unlimited amounts of flexibility, which Windoze doesn't. I also don't believe that someone with Bill Gates' wallet has any possible right charging what he charges per unit for a cardboard box with a disk in it. That's my personal reasons for sticking with it, anyway.

Live and let live, though. When you come back, I personally will be happy to answer any questions you might have. Good Luck.

[Stween]

Originally posted by RedHat 8 Newbie
a) No easy DVD (In most)

True. I don't know if newer end-user distros (RH, mdk) include xine as their default player, but that would make life easier for a lot of people. That and including the libdvdcss libraries (of memory serves) to ensure playback of retail dvd's would make things simpler.

b) I had problems with my printers

I've never had linux print a single sheet of paper. Never been able to get it to budge. I put that down to my cheapo lexmark inkjet, however.

c) I had no internet

Most modern end-user distros can be good at setting things up so that provided you can connect to the internet, most services would work nicely without any hassle. That said, I don't know what problems you encountered here.

d) Not easy to use

Define 'easy to use' - you can't. Nobody can, it's completely ambiguous. That said, linux is far from windows/mac simplicity for simple tasks.

e) I could name so many more!

As could I. But then, I like to live with the little niggles, and I like to spend time trying to get things to work nicely. I'm wierd.

I found it an achievement to just get halfway through an install let alone all through it! But in Windows, it took me 1 hour to get a fully working system (Office, DVD, so on)! It only took me 2 WEEKS!! to get half that done in linux.

I don't doubt it. Getting things set up from the word go is a huge task to put on the shoulders of the program installing linux. MS have put a lot of cash into making sure windows can at least get things going first time with just about everything under the sun - linux is getting better, but it isn't quite there yet.

At the end of the day, I also realised I needed Visual Basic 6, Office XP and a few others, and when wine didn't work properly and VMware was so slow my linux experience ended.

Dunno about VB, have never used it. But I can understand Office XP. Openoffice is handy, but it's not perfection in itself when handling word .doc's made with newer versions of Word.

There's a lot of flames flying around here as you predicted, yet I don't see why. There's nothing wrong with simply wanting your computer to do something without having to trawl through posts here and searching on google, people. Get over it.

[yinrunning]

So, Stween, why don't you post a question about your printer? See if someone can crack that nut? I'd be happy to give it a whirl!

[Stween]

Originally posted by yinrunning
So, Stween, why don't you post a question about your printer? See if someone can crack that nut? I'd be happy to give it a whirl!

It's never really bothered me before, that's why. Plus I don't have desk space for it any more, and have access to kick-*** laser printers at uni.

I simply tried it one day to see if I could get it to go, but no luck, I'm afraid.

[yinrunning]

Hey, that's cool. It's a nice warm fuzzy feeling when you get it to work, though!! :)

[Stween]

Originally posted by yinrunning
Hey, that's cool. It's a nice warm fuzzy feeling when you get it to work, though!! :)

I know, but it just wasn't going to budge. At all. So I put it back on the shelf I'd picked it up from.

[sleepingbear]

Originally posted by phyte
zipslack will fix the space hurdle...

Plus you wont even need the headaches of dual boot, and you can learn the in's and outs of linux command line from the comfort of your windows install..rhnewbie...

Give peace*cough*zipslack* a chance :)..


139Mb is the size of my fat32 directory that contains zipslack. loadlin allows me to boot into linux any time I want. And when you're ready... it can be moved back on a linux partition in under 52 minutes. I should know, I just did it!

Throw questions about zipslack my way and hopefully I can help you out. I worked this way on a 2Gb HD (with windows) and had X running and everything! That 2 Gb is now formatted completely for linux.

[Ahimsa]

The first time I loaded Linux was using RH7.2 which didn't recognise my CD-ROM. As a complete novice (now I'm only a partial novice or is that a half-baked novice:D ), this threw me for a loop. I didn't know what the heck to do. Eventually I uncovered the "depmod -ae" fix (thanks to folks on this site), but didn't know what I was doing, nor how typing in those mysterious words would get an OS to recognise a piece of hardware (oh the mysteries and magic of Linux!!). Then I went to configure my printer (HP 650C) and at first, that was a little rough. By then I had bought "Linux Complete" (Sybex) and armed with that and a few hundred sheafs of MS-printed tutorials and FAQs, etc I got the thing to work (helps if one knows the command line jargon). Then the modem, which was - surprisingly not too difficult - but, the point being is that if one is willing to work and do research then Linux will usually work. I then tried to compile the kernel and crashed my system big time. Full re-install, but this time I knew what I was doing with my hardware and peripherals ... I still avoid touching that kernel tho!!! :p

Now I'm using RH 8.0 personal, and everything works just fine straight out of the box. The OpenOffice is a great office suite (the old KOffice and KWord had some very buggy font rendering under 7.2 I found), reads all the MS documents my work site and the Internet requires I throw at it with nary a hiccup; I run several browsers each with different home pages, each to do different things, I have a virus checker, subscribe to a monthly mag full of tips and freebie software, and have enrolled to take a couple of intro-level courses, and now am teaching myself Python. Personally, I wouldn't trade my Linux box for any number of shiny new MS-boxes. There is still so much to learn about this system it'll take me the balance of my years, and what is so very cool is that with a Linux box, that learning is right there in front of me, in (relatively) plain view - the rest is up to me.
-fin-
;)

[GregJ]

I've been a newbie for about a week now, got the box assembled on 12/24/02 and started putting Linux on it.

It has been rough. My driver doesn't so my X won't.

I'm playing around with kernel installs and rebuilding X. Six installations later I've learned a lot - still lost in an X that doesn't work very well.

I believe computers are to make our life easier, and as my life is full and busy enough as it is, it is hard to devote so much time to see so little result.

Still, I want to learn Linux and all of the internet related stuff, especially Apache & PHP, Samba, and such that I chose to make a significant investment in this op-sys.

I have to agree with RHNewbie however, Linux is not ready for the desktop. When I got home with all the parts to my box and got them together, it took me about 2 hours total to get XP Pro installed and all of the hardware working, the video, the sound, the 2 Nics, the CR-RW, the floppy, the HD - everything. The reason I did that is BECAUSE I KNEW that XP would work on the hardware and if I had hooked up something incorrectly, then I would find out.

Only after that have I started playing with Linux on this box. I know that if I am having problems, it is with my Linux (and very directly my ignorance) installation. I have now been at it hard for over a week and still I don't have a decent driver working on the 82845G video chipset that comes on the motherboard.

Should I have to build a kernel and an X system from scratch to install a blasted driver? With Linux Yes, with Windows, no.

Unless you have the time and the motivation for messing with all of this stuff, Linux isn't for you.

Most of the computer users out there are folks who couldn't program a "Hello World" in HTML or anything else. For Linux to stand a chance at being the desktop of choice, it needs a lot of 'finishing' first. Windows is fast becoming as simple to use as a push-button telephone. Linux is still in 1701 autocoder (well - maybe that's a stretch;) ).

Linux makes a fine server, a good development platform, and an "interesting" desktop. But ease of use to the end-user has a long way to go.

BTW, I can't stand Microscum, their License-the-world mentality, and their OLD-IBM-FUD approach, but I expect I will continue to use their desktop and applications because they work, work well, are easy to install, and everybody else I work with is compatible with them.

I mean, why beat myself making something work on Linux when it works well on Windows already? I've got family, my farm, my church, my friends and a zillion books to read, why waste the time with an op-sys that isn't ready for the (general users') desktop?

Good luck to those who stay with Windows, and Progress! to those who are seeking to improve windows, and thanks to all of you who have helped me get this far on my Linux journey.

-g
sees good things in both Linux and Windows

[yinrunning]

their desktop and applications because they work, work well

Since when?

The head of IT at work gave a quick "Stuff Not to Do." speech during training, and pointed out that, "Yes, network apps will go down. They're Windows based." That's a pretty powerful statement, really. One would think they'd switch to Linux/Unix-based apps, but they haven't so far. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you know that the instabilities that occur in vital apps on a regular basis are due to the OS platform they're running on and that there's other things out there more reliable, why not switch? Especially when those alternates are cheaper and more flexible?

If Linux isn't for you, don't use it. If you're looking for it's benefits, however, then the learning curve is up to you. "With great power comes great resposibility." I can't remember what that's a quote from, but point being if you want Linux power, then you need to shoulder the burden of learning it. If you want to stick with Windows, have fun with all the crashing and freezing. There's not a damn thing you can do to stop it.

[rustskull]

Guess I hopped on this thread a little late, but I only have a couple short things to say...

1. Visual Basic. ummm... While its main usefulness is to make quick and dirty little programs for WINDOWS platforms (great for grabbing the ports and shoving data through in a nice little gui), hence sort of a mutually exclusive relationship with linux, some people have found value in pushing linux even further as a soup-nuts development platform...

http://sourceforge.net/projects/vb4linux/

I could go on about this point, but I won't.

2. Access? Another thing targeted at MS platforms, but again, I say, that any person that really wants to rake in the big bucks will be able to handle any environment from HP/UX to WINXP...on some levels programming, is programming. You just learn to deal with each environments quirks.

That said...SuSE (and probably others) are announcing full compatibility with MSoffice.

http://accessadvisor.net/doc/11369

3. Linux willl eventually overtake everything else as a development platform anyhow, because of the massive involvment in creating, maintaining, and adhering to computing standards...the same sorts of troubles have been plaguing the EDA industry for years...but Linux, existing as an os for the people, by the people, has overcome the single great limitation that exists in the EDA industry...

It doesn't have to turn a profit, and therefore is limited only by political influences imposed upon it by various *n*x factions.

That's why I use Debian, but I'm not going to step onto the soapbox here.

4. If you think about it, everyone had to learn certain things to and not to do while using windows, it's no more perfect than linux. My kids only come out of linux to play old windows software that I haven't had the time to figure out the wine configs for. Usually, they need something older like windows98, so all that stuff will eventually be totally obsolete and go away as more applications become available and the ones that are available now mature. The point to this is that I'm giving them exposure and they know that everything will have bugs and sometimes you have to work around them...it's not a political issue with them and they can see it as it is...

To someone who has never used a computer, I see the learning curve as very close to equal for linux and windows. Lots of people can't install windows, either. And the ones who can install it well and make it work probably invested some time and a few botched installs...I'd never seen linux before and I got it working well on the 3rd try. And I didn't have to wait a damn half hour every time I needed to back out of it (win2k!).

Not to get on a soapbox, but I get all the cutting edge kids software by using debian jr., in the unstable pool...the longest anything's been broken has been 48 hours, and that was only once. Usually everything works fine. I don't use unstable on my critical machines, but since there's new apps being uploaded all the time, I want them to be able to use them asap and they have accounts on the server to keep their data so it doesn't realy matter how hard the local system crashes, which incidentally, it NEVER does on linux, but win95/8 has major stability issues. The auto updates bring them the newest software and additional features for the stuff they already had. It's great.

.end soap

I really tried to stay off it...really.

Hell, as usual, more info that was needed or probably wanted. I just wanted to say it doesn't have to be that big of a deal.

-rust

PS If M$ keeps hammering on the schools, they will ditch them in droves and then it will be over in a few years. Our school district got audited in a completely unreasonable manner and got nailed. I live in Portland, OR.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=portland+school+microsoft+audit

Subsequently, the new computer labs in the school district will be LINUX!

(uh-oh...big sub-tangent/fork coming up)

shove it, bg. some philanthropist, eh folks? the foundation is a sham...a "non-profit" investment shelter
Here's what they granted (about a billion, probably way less than the taxes on teh money would have been...):
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/nr/public/media/annualreports/annualreport01/expenditures.htm
and here's the assets (note the line items!):
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/nr/public/media/annualreports/annualreport01/position.htm

yeah, F U bg. as a human being, you PISS ME OFF.

(sub-tangent completed, forking off)

Many successful companies recognize the value of "student versions" of software, or donations of machines and tools to universities. When a student leaves school, naturally the first thing they will want to use is something they are already skilled with... Mentor Graphics made a bunch of sales off former students by giving software to OIT...

Companies that don't realize the simple fact that it's easier to sell a product to someone who already knows how to use it will always face an uphill battle to gain new customers.

Besides, you have to pay support staff for your IT infrastructure anyhow, so why not skip the licensing fees and go with something that at the least isn't any worse than what you were using and has the potential to be much more without all the obfuscation and dodging.

[GregJ]

Remember please that I don't like the Microscum approach to nearly everything, they are pushy, unreasonable, and too expensive. Even their home/small office stuff is way over-priced. I run Win 98, Win XP, and NT 4 and now Linux. I can't afford to upgrade my NT4 file/print server because of the new pricing schemes - just plain out of sight. I have four PC's that need to be connected, and several applications that require their own userIDs. I exceed the seat count because of the applications - crazy & stupid.

That said, XP ran out of the box on very new hardware and has not crashed once. My users need a nice graphical interface that is consistent across applications and the VB scripting that comes with the M$ Office suite makes it easy for me to provide such things. They are portable - meaning that I don't have to have my client run anything than what they probably already have - windows. The VB Access is compilable and portable, they don't need an access license to run it. The applications don't fail. (The project at the link listed in the last post seems to be dead. But perhaps others will come up with something.)

They have automatic updates that upgrade and patch my windows software without the user having to think about it.

Instead of saying "If Linux isn't for you, don't use it", We (at least the distro folks) need to make it install as easy as windows and to provide up to the minute hardware support. It should come configured with WINEor Whatever ready to run the most popular M$ apps. The install should make it easy to setup samba for file sharing and make it easy to specify printers on windows machines.

And these things are happening. The link about SuSE is good news.

Remember, I'm not talking about programmer users as a whole, but the average joe and jane that want to use the computer to get their work done - they could care less about programming and other issues. To make it on the desktop requires we satisfy their needs without skilled technical intervention. My mother bought a pre-configured PC with M$ office and immediately began publishing a magazine. She has a hard time understanding files and the filesystem, but she is able to do her job. I haven't seen that level of ease in the Linux desktop.

But its coming. M$ didn't get there in a day either, and they have a lot more money to throw at the stuff. Linux, on the other hand, has a lot more folks who care deeply about open source and who are working diligently to make a difference. I will also be among them.

Having Linux be in the schools is something that needs to be done more. It is true that what you become familiar with in school will be the thing you want to use in the workplace. But we must remember that Apple was first in the schools and because they weren't easy enough to use and because the workplace is using M$ software, they didn't make it. Our advantage is that we are VERY inexpensive (not cheap) and once one machine is set up, the configuration of another one is almost free. Remember manpower is a cost.

As a development platform, Linux is the way to go without a doubt. As a server platform, Linux is the way to go without a doubt. But we must win the desktop war.

Regarding soap box, I too felt like enclosing my entire post between <soap></soap> tags. The reason I responded in the first place was to point out that RHNewbie has a point and has stated his objections to the 'product'. We need to recognize that this kind of criticism is not reason to slam the person, but as pointers to see what we can do to eliminate the problems he encountered.

I am very new to Linux, and it seems reasonable that as a new user, I can make observations about what I am finding difficult and about the problems I see whilst I am in the midst of them. After I get used to the way things are, then my recollection will become more dim. Think of the new users as a product feedback group to find the usability issues that the 'product' has and then seek to eliminate the issues.

OK, I like this place and it feels good for me to espouse my view, especially since I am so frustrated at the problems I am having with my X system and getting a decent driver installed for the hardware. It should not take a programmer to install a new device driver. I should not have to compile a new kernel and a new X system just to get it to go.

I am very thankful for folks like Syntaxis for helping me out and for all of the posts here and other places.

I am not being critical, just trying to make observations about where we need to go. Notice the we in the post above, I am identifying myself with the Linux point of view. I will prevail against the strangle hold of microscum in my office. The motivation I have is my disgust at the Microscum approach and philosophy. But I am not blind to their strengths and we must win the war on the front of usability (install and ease of use) to the user who is ambivalent about M$ or Linux.

Thanks to all for their help and encouragement, :D
-g

[JohnT]

They have automatic updates that upgrade and patch my windows software without the user having to think about it.

Some times it pays to think.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,797900,00.asp

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,801273,00.asp

[The Executioner]

LOL you use Visual Basic, that's funny, you want to make Windows programs in Linux, that's even funnier
You have a 4GB hard disk? I wonder how you manage to install Windows or Red Hat on there because it is probably damn slow if it takes 80% of your hard disk.
Go back to Windows, learn Java/C++ and come back to Linux, where you become a Uber 1337 haxxor

[GregJ]

JohnT, Thanks for the thread pointers. It is something to think about.

None the less, it does make for simpler maintenance by the end-user who doesn't give a rip about anything lower than the application.

The Executioner, If this was posted to me, what gave you the idea that I want to use VB on Linux? What I want is a way to develop easy scripted GUI interfaces to applications so my users can do whatever they need to do.

If I have an employee who makes $25/hr, then having him fool around with the application and op-sys for just 8 hours makes the cost justification of XP worth it. If I spend $500 on an Office Suite and it saves this worker 20 hours over its lifetime, I have paid for the product. Not to mention lost opportunity time - time spent fussing around with the op-sys or the applications trying to get them to work is time NOT doing what they are paid to do - a very un-satisfactory proposition. Suppose I spend $3000 dollars on a machine from XXX and it has XP Pro and XP Office Pro and it works when I unbox it and plug it in and my worker is productive doing what I hired the worker to do, then in just 125 hours - that's just over three weeks of real work - to make it pay for itself.

So what if it is bloated? So what if it takes a big disk and machine? Such things are cheap compared to the hourly rate, the benefits burden, and getting real work done.

Many of you are so focused on the Linux and the sweetness and the elegance that you miss the point - getting something done which is the reason companies buy and use computers in the first place.

We must not get our shorts into a wad when somebody points these things up - better let's find a way to get useable (non- microscum) solutions into the hands of office workers so that they can be immediately productive. Let's find a good way to have those machines be updated by non-technical personnel who don't know a thing about security, protocols, and code.

Can it be done? Sure it can, microscum is doing it however imperfectly now, surely we can do better!

-g

[claude renaud]

I'm new to Linux and said goodbye to Windows about a year ago.
I started with a dual boot, then booted out Win2K.
I know Windows is mainstream (for now) for desktop users, but Linux keeps improving every day, something you cannot say about MS.
I'm no computer expert, being a 58 year old financial consultant, but computers used to be one of my favorite hobbies until Windows showed up with a "7 year later" bad imitation of Apple.
With Linux, I got my favorite hobby back with a vengeance, only better and cheaper. I'm having fun again, learning new stuff every day I use it.
You'll be back to Linux before you know it.
Good luck!

[GregJ]

Yeah, Windows obsfuscated everything so bad it was no fun any more. I agree. I am enjoying the play, but then I like to play on computers.

Open Source removes the impetus to cloud issues with FUD.

-g
Now, just how does THIS work?

[bkinney]

I understand the frustration expressed with install and the learning curve.

Having installed RH8 two weeks ago, I only yesterday got my modem working and hope to get my printer and zip drives working this afternoon.

Definitely not a user-friendly process but the community here and other linux sources have been so helpful that I am managing to overcome the obstacles presented with install/setup.

At the end of the day, I believe that linux will be my preferred OS - although I need to keep my system dual boot because my wife uses desktop publishing and imaging software on Windows.

It's not easy, but it's worth it. The more your personal knowledge and experience grows the easier it gets!

[Nu-Bee]

Good luck in finding another OS that is only 10 years old, yet does everything as well or better than an OS that began development over 22 years ago.

Good luck in finding an OS that is free, that will match the capabilities of an OS that costs several hundred dollars.

Good luck, but I am afraid that you may be one of the people who, when M$ finally maneuvers things to where you either pay or do without...period...will be doing without...or paying...thru the nose.

Wishing you knew another way...

Already I see people crying because they need to re-activate their XP simply because they upgraded their motherboard...or something else.

"No pain, no gain."

I wonder if you spent so much time wandering around looking for a distro that would meet your unreasonable demands, that you never took the time to learn how to properly install these things you say you had problems with...??? :rolleyes:

I am constantly amazed by people who don't even comprehend the behind the scenes Windows stuff...then complain about an OS they chose to try...knowing they would need to learn the behind the scenes stuff.

Good luck with Windows because I seriously doubt that you will ever find another OS to meet your demands for an OS.

And, no...I don't know Linux very well...but I know enough to realize that it may take me years to get a decent handle on it. I've already spent 2, several more isn't a problem...not a bit. Heck, I haven't even got my CD burner working yet...but I will.

I got Xine to play DVD's; I got Xawtv, MoTV, and AVview to play television...I will get my CD burner working.

In time I will be a Linux guru...or at least know enough to work myself through a problem.

Sticking my head in the sand wishing for that perfect OS to pop out of my computer isn't going to do it...

Some people like to learn, some people don't.

I'm over 50 but don't plan on losing "it" because I was too lazy to "use" it. At least I'll die with a mind. I have already learned a very important lesson..."patience, and perseverence"

[bosox79]

Originally posted by Nu-Bee
Good luck in finding another OS that is only 10 years old, yet does everything as well or better than an OS that began development over 22 years ago.

Good luck in finding an OS that is free, that will match the capabilities of an OS that costs several hundred dollars.

Good luck, but I am afraid that you may be one of the people who, when M$ finally maneuvers things to where you either pay or do without...period...will be doing without...or paying...thru the nose.

Wishing you knew another way...

Already I see people crying because they need to re-activate their XP simply because they upgraded their motherboard...or something else.

"No pain, no gain."

I wonder if you spent so much time wandering around looking for a distro that would meet your unreasonable demands, that you never took the time to learn how to properly install these things you say you had problems with...??? :rolleyes:

I am constantly amazed by people who don't even comprehend the behind the scenes Windows stuff...then complain about an OS they chose to try...knowing they would need to learn the behind the scenes stuff.

Good luck with Windows because I seriously doubt that you will ever find another OS to meet your demands for an OS.

And, no...I don't know Linux very well...but I know enough to realize that it may take me years to get a decent handle on it. I've already spent 2, several more isn't a problem...not a bit. Heck, I haven't even got my CD burner working yet...but I will.

I got Xine to play DVD's; I got Xawtv, MoTV, and AVview to play television...I will get my CD burner working.

In time I will be a Linux guru...or at least know enough to work myself through a problem.

Sticking my head in the sand wishing for that perfect OS to pop out of my computer isn't going to do it...

Some people like to learn, some people don't.

I'm over 50 but don't plan on losing "it" because I was too lazy to "use" it. At least I'll die with a mind. I have already learned a very important lesson..."patience, and perseverence"

very will said Nu-Bee:cool:

[fmfnavydoc]

I'm another one of the "newbies" to Linus (RedHat 8.0), and I have to admit that the learning curve for it is a little on the steep side, but I was fortunate enough to load up RH with only one problem after doing it - I couldn't get the Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live! card to work. After looking at this site, I was able to find the answer and fix the problem (I had the sound card on the motherboard on - just went into BIOS and turned it off). My system is working great...no problems and all perhiperals working!

I will probably maintain a dual boot system for the forseeable future (I also run Windows XP Home Edition), but as a few of you have already stated, and I believe, it's only a matter of time before Linux gets to the point of becoming easier to use that Windows, and people notice that the Linux community believe in taking care of problems (i.e., bugs) right away.

Has Microsoft dug themselves a hole, with their licensing schemes, "reliable" software, and endless legal battles - I think so. Is their demise coming soon - I hope so. As long as Microsoft continues with their business tactics, buggy software and gouging home and business computer users, there will be people, like myself, that are willing to try other options, like Linux.

Again, I thank those of you that have helped me with RH, and I look forward to the day when I hopefully will become a "linux guru"!

[windowsfree]

I have also switched to Linux, I use Mandrake 8.2 and have decided that I'll never use window$ on my computer again! There is alot of software that I love but can't use with Linux but I keep myself well informed on Linux compatible alternatives (by the way, if anyone knows how to get Tracktor to work in Linux I'd be a very happy man) Linux is growing, where I work I have to use Linux because it's important for everything to work properly and "this program has generated errors and will now be shut down by window$ isn't an option. Try running a dual boot with winsucks and Linux, I find putting winddow$ on my system is like shining my parade boots and then scuffing them up! so remember you aren't the only one who has problems, just don't give up and go back to Billy, he sucks! (oops, did I say that out loud!?!)

[chatins]

Even though you have switched back to win2k, don't forget about the interix software microsoft was showing off @ Linuxworld 2003.

I talked to the microsoft guys and they seemed very proud of interix. That and they won best booth of show! :cool: