Red Hat Vs. Mandrake for Web Server?

[pmuhl]

I'm about to purchase a web server (Athlon 1.2Ghz, Ultra 160 SCSI) and have gotten conflicting advice on whether Mandrake Pro+Option Pack is better than Red Hat Professional. I need something that can handle reasonably high levels of traffic & has the necessary tools to keep a server running and to program for it.

Any recommendations?

Thanks!
Peter

[Muzzafarath]

http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gif Slackware http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gif

[ph34r]

Mandrake is based on Redhat.

That being said...

http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gif Slackware http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gif

[pointreyes]

Ditto

http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gifSlackware http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gif

[mindwarp]

Mandrake

[mindwarp]

Actually I will throw in a vote for FreeBSD instead.. http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

Mindwarp

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"I'm born. I'm alive. I breathe. In a moment or two I realize, that the sphere, upon which I reside, is asleep on its feet. should I go back to sleep? We orbit the sun. I grow up. my open eyes see...A zombified, somnambulist society. Leaving us as vitamins for the hibernating human animal. Do you see what I mean?"

[ep0k]

Mandrake...

It has cuter penguins!

[MrNewbie]

Slackware, Debian stable or a BSD variant.
Note: FreeBSD'd get my vote for toughest install...
MrNewbie

[pmuhl]

Originally posted by MrNewbie:
Slackware, Debian stable or a BSD variant.
Note: FreeBSD'd get my vote for toughest install...
MrNewbie

Hi folks: Glad to hear so many responses to my question :-). You're giving me some useful ideas. It would be helpful to hear why you recommend the systems you recommend. E.g., why is Debian better than RedHat?

Thanx!

peter

[demian]

Originally posted by pmuhl:
E.g., why is Debian better than RedHat?


That's easy:
RedHat sucks!!
Debian rocks!! http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/cool.gif

[Harry]

I would definitely not choose Mandrake for a "mission critical" task such as a server. Mandrake has Pentium optimizations via the pgcc compiler. This compiler is not known for stability. I am not saying that Mandrake isn't good enough for a desktop though. Redhat and Mandrake somtimes puts untested software into their distributions which can reduce stability and cause security problems. The Slackware, Debian, and the *BSD developers use more quality control to insure stability and reduce security threats, that is why I would go with one of them.

[DJ-dOoK]

I will throw a vote for Debian as well. Up time is always greater than downtime and a lot more customizable as well.

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One day, the DJ declared! Let this OS be taken to the world, and Linux was introduced to many frustrated windows users!

[ssadams]

I base this on opinion and from things I have read on the net.Anyone actually running a production server(it gets used by more than 10000 hits a day) might say something different.
1)Open,Net,Free BSD
2)Solaris or True 64 http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif
3)Slackware or Debian
4)Winblows 2000 DC
I wouldn't use Mandrake unless you try 6.5 or 7.0 as 7.1 and 7.2 on 4 boxes I put it on was flaky.
Redhat has too many programs that run set suid so scrap that idea.

[pmuhl]

Originally posted by ssadams:

Redhat has too many programs that run set suid so scrap that idea.

Sorry, am just a newbie. What's set suid?

Thanks!

Peter

[pmuhl]

Incidentally, is it really worth $180 to get RH Professional as opposed to just Red Heat?

peter

[amiculus]

slackware or debian.
best security and uptime with stability if you config it right and you don't need a GUI do have a server. it just makes it look cute...

------------------
One day I booted windows
to have it crash before
it's GUI loaded. THat day
I became a penguin.

[stiles]

Originally posted by pmuhl:
Incidentally, is it really worth $180 to get RH Professional as opposed to just Red Heat?
peter

Not worth it anymore at all. Sence the RSA pattents expired last september there is no justification for that price for Professional. Get the cheep CD or download an ISO. Any distro that you can administer will be good enough (long as you do your part as administrator http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/wink.gif ).

[Harvey]

I run mandrake on my desktop, but for a server, slackware baby!
solid as a rock.

[ssadams]

in short words suid means super user id ie:root
you might as well run winblows 2000 server with a trojan running http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

[1pcWarren]

Have a look at Mandrakes Corporate server edition, only avalable by ftp at the moment, but much more conservative than the desktop release + it has some really neat tools..... http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/corposerver.php3

BTW, Harry, MDK 7.2 was compiled with GCC 2.95.2 not PGCC, &, as someone who took part in beta testing it, I can assure you that the software was not untested http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

That said, I wish they kept an option to use KDE 1.1.2, & some of the games were buggy...

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Full plate and packing steel! - Minsk
http://www.linuxfreak.com/~wardonx
wardonx@linuxfreak.com

[This message has been edited by 1pcWarren (edited 23 January 2001).]

[sn9ke eyes]

Originally posted by DJ-dOoK:
I will throw a vote for Debian as well. Up time is always greater than downtime and a lot more customizable as well.




I would hope that your uptime would be greater than your downtime no matter what OS you would use. Otherwise maybe you have to reconsider what the heck you are doing.

[pmuhl]

Originally posted by amiculus:
slackware or debian.
best security and uptime with stability if you config it right and you don't need a GUI do have a server. it just makes it look cute...


Do you mean that KDE, e.g., isn't available for slackware or debian?

[pmuhl]

Originally posted by ssadams:
in short words suid means super user id ie:root
you might as well run winblows 2000 server with a trojan running http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

EEK! Can't someone change the suid?

peter

[pontiouspilate]

use Redhat everyone here is going "my distro has a bigger dick than yours" the truth is mandrake is based off redhat with some features for new users. Redhat is not a bad distro, people like to bash them. but the truth is that i find it is easyer to admin and when programs have bugs or security holes (which is usually for all distros not just redhat, yes debian and slackware use the same programs as redhat to suse or whatever distro.) redhat releases easy to update fixes right away. aslong as you use redhat's Errata and keep your system up to date and secure it for what you only need (which is something you would do for all distros)

All I am saying here is that you can use what distro you want just use common sence (check for updates and secure the server).

but for all the redhat bashers and whatever distro you would like to insult without actual **** to back it up. than you have become the same level of poeple that buy clothes because everyone else is wearing them. drink soda that everyone else is because you wanna be like them.

(btw im not sterotyping everyone just pointing out that alot of haters of specific distros dont know what the hell they are talking about)

anyhow have fun and choose a distro that YOU like. and take good measures to secure it and you will be fine.

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When Pilate saw that he was not succeeding at all, but that a riot was breaking out instead, he took water and washed his hands in the sight of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood. Look to it yourselves."
Matthew 27:24

[SkyNet]

I have to agree with pontiouspilate. Many ppl bash distro's they have not tried or given the time of day to. All they have heard is subjective comments from one person to another and base their opinion of that distro on those ppl's thoughts.

I think Redhat and Mandrake are both fine distro's as well as many of the others.

However If I were you I would flip a coin to see which distro I use, because until you try them you want know the difference.

My personal preference is Mandrake 7.2 mainly because I havn't tried Redhat 7.0 yet. So see how that works?

[njcajun]

gotta agree with the above. I use SuSE and Redhat, and have used Mandrake and Debian in the past. I'm a Solaris admin by trade.

I think it's what you get used to. If you're really serious about building a serious server, you're going to want to do things like slim down the kernel, shut down services, maybe de-install some stuff, and do secure configs for the services you do run. After all of that, what difference does it make what distro you run?

I started with redhat because there is more documentation (books, texts, whitepapers, etc) for it than any other distro I've seen.

I've only ever seen one book on Slack and one on Debian.

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Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it.

[WeDeliver]

FreeSCO or Slackware

[iniquity]

Well... I'm gonna chuck my two coppers in...

I run WinNT ES and Win2K AS servers at work... both platforms do quite well (the Win2K one more so), you just have to get permissions correctly set... especially if you're hosting FrontPage sites (an admin's nightmare - clear text passwords and execute permissions... http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/redface.gif ), so for those of you who immediately dissmiss M$ servage without having real-world time admin'ing it, give your head a shake... and stfu.

As for using some serious 'nix servage... well, my vote would be OpenBSD - its the hardest system to crack out there, one of the hardest to config and get rolling too (IMHO), but well worth it if you can pull it off.

Since this is LNO, I must get to Linux. My first was Red Hat (5.0 I believe). RH is a good distro, lots of users to help you out, and TONS of documentation on it. I find that RH does advance the Linux community, but I am sort of beginning to think they may well be the M$ of the Linux scene.. time will only tell.

Everyone I know who uses RH tho, has gone back to RH 6.2 from 7.0 as they have all had some serious issues with it - be aware of the fact that 7.0 uses some nifty new things that arent really 100% up there.

From RH, I converted to SuSE, but found that I had a difficult time getting used to its its conventions, but I must admit, the scripts it had for getting services up and running, like "firewals" for firewalling were very easy to use and configure.

Then, a Linux newbie pal of mine suggested I try Mandrake 7.0 - I hated it, but I liked the concept of it - ease of use - something Linux isnt really all that huge on. So I sat on the Mandrake sidelines until 7.2... thats where I jumped in....

I love it... super easy to use, based on RH, so the conventions are easy to follow, and with the combo of MUO and LNO, help is super easy to attain. For an example of how MDK puts things together, in MDK 7.2, Apache comes with all the latest complimentary apps, like PHP 4 and MySQL 3.23, so you need not worry about incompatibility issues (for the most part).

At the suggestion of 1pcWarren, I'm going to try MDK's Corporate Server 1.0, just to see if it really is all that much easier to admin - why not? Knowing MDK's desktop version, I'm sure their corporate version will be a very user-friendly experience, if nothing else.

I have friends that are hosting webs/ftp/Quake 3 Arena/UT/HotLine servers off of both MDK and RH platforms, and both do well.

The nice thing you may condsider about Deb is apt-get.. prolly one of the easiest ways to update your apps!

I havent had any serious time on a Slack machine. I tried installing it once, and couldnt be bothered with its sparse, cryptic install. It may be better now, that was a while ago, but I do have a couple of friends that are hard, hardcore 1337 'nix h4><0rs, and they swear by Slack.

Ultimately, its personal preference, as mentioned before.

I suggest that whatever distro you decide on, scour the NHF's for security things - like installing Port Sentry, Bastille Linux, and maybe something like Snort if you see fit. If you take the time to go over your conf and cfg files, closing off daemons you dont want and or need, and just installing the bare essentials to get you by, keeping your kernel up to the one that is considered the most "secure", you'll have a nice, hard, reliable 'nix server, no matter what distro name is on your install CD.



[This message has been edited by iniquity (edited 23 January 2001).]

[demian]

Originally posted by pmuhl:
Do you mean that KDE, e.g., isn't available for slackware or debian?

Of course it is. But who cares for guis when running a server...

[shortfella]

iniquity you give a great response that shows you have some experience.

The problem with coming to this board is to many kids posting with no knowledge of what they are talking about(though they probably think they do).

Until you have real world experience with the topic at hand I don't believe you can give a good response.

Setting up a secure, well managed server as less to do with the software you use and more to do with the practices you keep.

Debian, slackware, windows, etc, will all be as bad as each other if not setup correctly and security updates not installed.

Is the server for a business or your own use?

RedHat is a good choice for a business due to the support they can supply.

Debian/Slackware should not be used by Businesses due to no 'real' support.

For the many companies I have worked for and installed systems a major factor that the company bases its decision on is support.

my 2 cents

[11000]

OK, I run a NT4 webserver(mission critical). I'm currently working on testing a linux server to do the same function. As far as distributions, I started with Red Hat, moved to Mandrake, and am currently running Slackware.

Any distro can be as secure as any other distro if you know what you're doing. With distros such as Red Hat you're going to spend hours updating and patching, unless you only have the most basic install. You'll have to patch any distro, but if you check bugtraq and such, you'll find a lot more bugs in red hat then you will in Slackware or Debian. There's currently a nice little "program" that searches the internet for Red hat servers to compromise.

What are you planning to have your website for? How much will it cost you if the server is compromised? How much time can you spend "securing" your system. The biggest factor here is time. If you don't know how to use Slackware, you're going to have as much problems as an unsecure red hat installation.

If this is just a personal site, and you can take having to reinstall because someone hacked it, then you can use it to learn security etc, and make it a great tool. However, if this is mission critical, then make sure that you know security as well as you know your own name.

Mandrake was basically red hat in the beginning. Just the pentium optimized version, and a little flashier. The only difference as far as server versions is probably the support packages that come with them.

Just my opinion.

P.S. I'm installing Slackware on my test server, and burying myself in security how-to's etc. http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

[iniquity]

Thanks shortfella http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

demian: about a GUI on a server...

I have found that, if you have the hard drive room, and a bit of RAM to spare, installing one GUI can be of some use.

Say you hit a brick wall that you simply cant solve. Its nice to be able to hop into X, open a browser and come to places like the LNO BBS to get help, as well as something like newsgroups (thus requiring mail)...

Now, I know one can be total hardcore and use lynx/pine to stay command-line pure, but in this day and age of massive hard drives and cheap memory, installing your GUI of choice to get you out of a bind now and again isnt necessarily a bad thing.

I have a little P-250 (166 overclocked to 250) with 64MB of RAM that I used to run as my firewall as well as a Q3A Tournament server. I had X/KDE installed, and it payed off more than once.


**************

We have enough youth... how about a fountain of smart?

[The King Ant]

SUID stands for set user ID, not super user ID. If you chmod +s an executable (SUID it) then the program will run as the user who owns it, which is usually happens to be root.

It is not entirely a bad thing, it gets dangerous when the program that is running SUID has a security hole or something and allows any ol' user to run any program then want as root. An example of something that might run SUID is passwd, since it must edit your /etc/password or /etc/shadow file when the user changes their password (it also has to be able to read /etc/shadow, which should be only readable by root, which means only something running as root can read it, which means only stuff root runs or stuff SUID and owned by root can read /etc/shadow).

Yeah, RedHat isn't bad, neither is Mandrake. Debian and Slackware are traditionally more server oriented distributions. I'd use Debian...

Keep stuff updated.

[pmuhl]

Originally posted by The King Ant:
SUID stands for set user ID, not super user ID. If you chmod +s an executable (SUID it) then the program will run as the user who owns it, which is usually happens to be root.


That's interesting & scary!

peter

[pmuhl]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to offer such well-considered advice! Many of the points above are very helpful.

A couple thoughts. First, I got some feedback from the company selling us our server that Mandrake 7.2 because "SGI has optimized it for heavy traffic." Strangely, no one on this bboard has brought this up, so I really wonder if Mandrake has a major advantage over Red Hat in this respect.

Many have asked what the server is for: we are setting up a virtual political community for the city of Pittsburgh. We'll be using the server to write JSP code for the web site & to serve up the website. In some respects, we are like a business.

peter

[1pcWarren]

Have a look at: http://cheapbytes.com/
every distro mentioned in this thread is avalable there (including Mandrake Corporate Server http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/wink.gif) & uh, the're really cheap....

[pmuhl]

Originally posted by 1pcWarren:
Have a look at: http://cheapbytes.com/
every distro mentioned in this thread is avalable there (including Mandrake Corporate Server http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/wink.gif) & uh, the're really cheap....

Thanks for the tip!

peter