For those about to quit...

[sasKuatch]

Just thought that some people could use some encouragement. Before you give up on linux, just remember, it's probably not your fault; hardware has a HUGE role in how well it runs. If you are having hardware problems, don't panic: reserve judgement until you get a chance to try it on some more machines. Also, if you have new hardware, you will probably want a newer distro to improve your odds of having the hardware autodetect. That means, if you have a distro that you bought 4 years ago, and it's been collecting dust since then, chances are it's outdated and won't detect the hardware that just came out 3 months ago.

So keep these things in mind before you post something like "Linux is crap, it sucks, blah blah.."

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

This is a VERY nice thing to post!

I wish I'd've had this type of encouragement when I was little.

Linux takes time to learn, but once you grasp a few key concepts, it seems like everything else falls into place. It also doesn't hurt to start learning the little details about every little piece of hardware you run across.

Also, do like I do. Try to get as many old, discarded or cheap machines as you can get, it doesn't matter if they're Intel, Alpha, Sparc, PPC, or whatever. Then, as you get them, try installing Linux on them and getting them to talk on a LAN. If you come across a machine that doesn't really have a good version of Linux for it (say some old Macs, for instance) then try to get your Linux box to talk to it via its native protocols.

You'd be surprised at how much you'll have learned. I've only been in this game for two years, and I sit down and boggle when I look back at how little I knew when I started and how much, though not enough, that I've learned since then.

Yeah, and I just wanted to bump this nice post.

[jglen490]

I saw an old IBM TP365XD laptop in a second-hand store one day. I immediately latched onto it, threw Mandrake 8.0 (now Mandrake 8.2) at it, and left the Windoze world (albeit a little slowly :D !!). Older hardware and new Linux are GREAT together. For newer hardware, do your homework and be choosey, but it'll still work well.

Yeah, I agree, hang in there and work with it. Linux is unlike any OS that most folks are used to working with, but it's a very powerful and flexible OS.

[Icarus]

I have a 5+ year old laptop that is Running the latest Debian (no CD-ROM so network install was the only real option) and once I got it up to 40MB of memory the thing runs great! Using the 2.2.x kernel.

I got a new 2 GB HD for it and installed Debian on that, but running across some X problems even though I'm using the same XF86Config file, I'm betting it is trying to use XFree 4.2 where the other install that works might be using XFree 4.1...

But anyway...it all just needs some to to get even the most stuborn hardware working!:cool:

[mrBen]

Go Newbies, YAY :D

Definitely worth every second of hair-pulling-out-time.

[mackstar]

Well thanks for the encouragement. So far it's been an uphill battle every single second of the way. Seemingly every time I fix one problem, two more arise to take its place. It's insane. It's become my personal obession to get the thing working.

I know you linux fans won't like to hear this, but I wish it worked as easily as windows.

[fancypiper]

Originally posted by mackstar
I know you linux fans won't like to hear this, but I wish it worked as easily as windows. I wish Windows worked as easily as Linux.

I haven't booted into Windows in about 3 months.

[Greek Acrobat]

9 Hours ago I was ready to give up.

Not no more.

Cheers :)

[PopcornBuzzard]

It IS nice to hear encouragement. I'm totally new to Linux...haven't even installed it yet. I'm just finishing up with the research phase so I can get to the installation part. Soon "the big install day" will come.

From what I can tell, perseverance is the name of the game here.

[bammbamm808]

You must allow a much longer process before you know your way around linux. It is so very different than Windows. Don't expect to know it very quickly unless you're some kind of prodigy.

[Aglavalin]

Best way to learn linux is on an older machine that you don't really need. This way the hardware is probably supported and you wont cry when your machine is not working right just when you need it for something important! After you have gotten past most of the speedbumps, you can kiss your old OS goodbye without so many worries :)

[sasKuatch]

definitely true, and once you get it running smoothly, you won't look back:D

[rdrr]

bah! :mad:

What other choices do I have? Windows? Spending time with the wife and kids? Finishing that project I never started?

:D

[mdwatts]

Originally posted by mackstar

I know you linux fans won't like to hear this, but I wish it worked as easily as windows.

That is the reason why asking us (LNO members) to recommend a distro does not really help the person that is asking.

Do your own research and find out which distro will most likely install with fewer problems on your hardware.

I use Caldera myself and rarely run into any problems installing on my work or home pc's. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Trazzall]

The more I fiddle, the more I need to fix, the more I need to search, the more I need to ask, the more I need a Linux geezer here to sort me out :)

Maybe when I feel it is time to leave it alone I might get down to really using it !

Encouragement is the way to go....I feel like a sponge :) sucking up all this knowledge. Thanks to all that help xxx

[Matt9876]

I got a good deal on a 1.4 Ghz AMD machine on eBay SiS sound,AGP graphics and network on board.

Mandrake 8.2 runs well on this machine.

Thought I had a sound card problem but just had to visit the mixer and turn up the volume controls.

I plan on always having a Linux machine from now on !

Linux Rocks!

[Josebr]

Just wanted to say, boy do I need the encouragement!!!!. I was ready to give up just this past weekend. The mouse took 5 working days to work. I was thinking that all you Linux folks must be masochist. Windows was right there, just under the Godhead. But after correcting the problem, I had my first Linux orgasm. It feels great to be able (with assistance from my fellow Linuxites) to solve a problem.

I can feel the addiction pulling on my excitement starved neurons. Next project, to have my linux machine see the rest of my win home network.
Jose

[fancypiper]

Once you go to the effort to scale the mountain and see the vast vista before you, you will be glad you broke out of that cloying, stupifying, popular OS.

Freedom and choice. :D

:cool:

[matrixcubed]

What with the cryptic documentation, uncertainty of hardware configuration, scads of oriented-toward-veterans tutorials on the 'net and scarcity of true-newbie tutorials (this site is great though), and elitist-minded "RTFM" attitudes a newbie has to deal with when asking for help, it's really no wonder why it's not a more popular OS. My latest problem in a series of them (found here (http://linuxnewbie.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=63308)) is inexplicable, and I basically have nowhere to turn because of the above.

So saying "hang in there, newbie, and have faith" really doesn't make a difference if there isn't a concrete source of problem/resolution documentation. Promising green fields of bliss "but there's a constant uphill battle until you memorize a lot" certainly doesn't look inviting to the "uninitiated".

I just want to get a Linux GUI-environment working so I can do some cross-platform OpenGL programming, but thus far it's been a nightmare's nightmare. :(

[JohnT]

Started out with a dual-boot about 3 weeks ago and after the second week windows went, to free up more HD for Linux. Have gone through 5 distros and have settled on Slackware. It's seems to have the best combination of GUI and CLI for me. I would have been semi-lost without this forum and want to thank everyone resposible. Never thought about giving up once. Just complete immersion is the way for me. I haven't enough braincells left for any other way. :D

[Floog]

Originally posted by fancypiper
I wish Windows worked as easily as Linux.

I haven't booted into Windows in about 3 months.

Me too, Piper. I've been doing a ton of reading and set-up configging with Samba---- and it occurred to me, I'm only doing this so that I can make linux deal with windows clients at work.

Other than keeping a separate hard drive set up so I can do some World War 2 Flight sim. games, there's just no need for windows anymore.

I am definitely not the fastest learner in the world and certainly don't have a ton of free time after working a 60 hour week.

Just keep using linux and reading about anything that you don't understand. Keep your eyes open for applications that will help you accomplish the tasks that you require. In no more than 12 months you will be microsoft-free, if you so choose.

Mike

P.S. ---- and of course, spend as much time reading and sharing on this excellent forum.

[sasKuatch]

One more thing. You don't need to get everything working right away. It's not a homework assignment.

Me, I've spent about a year playing with linux with nothing but the display, mouse, keyboard, and drives working (not my CD-RW). Then came sound, and I considered myself lucky. I could finally do my 3D modeling and rendering with Blender and POV-Ray, *while* listening to mp3's at the same time. I thought I was in heaven, even though my printer, scanner, modem, network card, CD-RW, and Voodoo2 all didn't work. They still don't to this day.

Then about a year ago, I got my Dell laptop (i4000), and (almost)everything works. Video, sound, ethernet card, input, etc. Modem doesn't work, hotswapable drives don't swap, and my floppy doesn't work. Thing is, you don't need everything. Twice a year when I need my floppy drive, I'll boot a DR-DOS diskette, or whatever, I don't care. And the point is, neither should you. This is about having fun messing with computers, and sticking it to The Man while you're doing it. ;)

[matrixcubed]

Problem is, how can one be productive in one's intended field, when one must spend time troubleshooting poorly-documented inconsistencies of the operating system? I basically haven't touched coding for 3 weeks (minus the small modifications to my current projects that I play around with from time to time when stuck on a major coding dilemma), because I've been learning how to install NIC drivers, video drivers, mouse drivers, desktop environments, different RPMs and TGZ packages, finding out some of my hardware is unsupported... the list goes on.

I understand that not every piece of hardware can be supported, nor can everything be documented perfectly. But there can easily a 10:1 ratio of "daunting-ness" with *nix compared to the Other Big Two popular operating systems. Three weeks ago I was strictly a programmer, now I'm also a budding system administrator -- though not by choice.

My best advice to the greenest of newbies? Get a *nix veteran to set everything up for you, pay close attention, and ask lots of questions. :eek:

I guess I could get a serious "that's the way it is; like it or lump it", but I really feel that there could be a revolution in Linux user-friendliness and documentation (I mean more "user guide" than "reference manual", which is the majority of what I've come across). I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

[sasKuatch]

matrix, you're looking at it all wrong. If you desperately need to get work done, set up linux on a test machine until you figure it out.

I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

Probably because it isn't needed as much as other things. Really, I don't see what the big deal is. I'll admit, I stink at linux. I'm a n00b, if you will. However, I still manage to point and click my way through most of it.

Like I said in my earlier post, if your hardware is completely un-linuxfriendly, like my desktop is, put it off until you upgrade, and when you do upgrade, do so with linux-friendlyness in mind. Not only will that save you *lots* of time in setting up linux, but you will end up with a rock-solid, well-supported hardware setup in general, because it's usually the higher-quality stuff that is better support.

Example: Don't get a Sis Junko-matic video card for $4.99 at Joe's 'Puter Barn, get an Ati, nVidia, Creative, etc. You won't regret it. Perhaps you won't be able to upgrade as often due to the higher price, but the higher quality components will have a longer life. Which is outdated first? A TNT or RagePro or a crappy Sis card? That Sis card was outdated 3 years ago.

Successful linux usage is as much (if not more) hardware selection as linux skills. And set up a safetynet: Start with an easier distro. If you don't have a spare machine, do the partitioning in windows with something like Partition Magic, and use a boot floppy to avoid nuking your mbr. You're new to it; you don't need to trust 3 years of important work to your skills yet. Make frequent backups. Have a seperate partition with only work on it. That way it won't (be as likely to) get hosed with the rest of your system if you mess up. Remember, linux isn't secretly destroying data and breaking hardware behind your back! It does what you tell it to.

[timbobagginsii]

thanks for the encouragement, I wish i'd done the dual install 3 months ago when i had the whole summer to get down to some serious learning, now I'm back to university in a week's time and all my time goes out the window, needing to find a job to pay my way as well as the trickiness that is BSc Physics. altogether now: awwwwwwwwww. anyway, cheers folks

[matrixcubed]

(edit)

I probably shouldn't post in this thread again ... apparently I have a very anti-Linux mindset.

Sorry to be a thorn.

[sasKuatch]

I hope this helps:) I wish I had this advice before I started:)

And matrix, it's up to you. Hey, you said it, not me. It's not a bother helping someone, that's why I and many others are doing it.

[molossermom]

I just installed RH 7.3 on an old pentium I picked up.
So far, I am just finding my way around in Gnome and nautilus (sp?) and have not ventured into the scary world of command line :eek:
I have 2 questions,
first - I don't have a key on any of my keyboards with the 90degree up and down line ( a cross between a / and a \ ) how do i make this ?
second - I have 2 older modems . They are both Lucent chipsets - (apollo and mars; a pci and an isa) I went to Http://www.idir.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html#drivers but the page it directed me to was not what I was used to seeing as something i could download - it wasn't clear which to use, 6.00, 6.11, peoples names, dates etc.. any direction so i can learn more here will be appreciated.

keep up the encouraging words; it is a steep learning curve but I am encouraged so far.
molossermom

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by matrixcubed
Problem is, how can one be productive in one's intended field, when one must spend time troubleshooting poorly-documented inconsistencies of the operating system? I basically haven't touched coding for 3 weeks (minus the small modifications to my current projects that I play around with from time to time when stuck on a major coding dilemma), because I've been learning how to install NIC drivers, video drivers, mouse drivers, desktop environments, different RPMs and TGZ packages, finding out some of my hardware is unsupported... the list goes on.

I understand that not every piece of hardware can be supported, nor can everything be documented perfectly. But there can easily a 10:1 ratio of "daunting-ness" with *nix compared to the Other Big Two popular operating systems. Three weeks ago I was strictly a programmer, now I'm also a budding system administrator -- though not by choice.

My best advice to the greenest of newbies? Get a *nix veteran to set everything up for you, pay close attention, and ask lots of questions. :eek:

I guess I could get a serious "that's the way it is; like it or lump it", but I really feel that there could be a revolution in Linux user-friendliness and documentation (I mean more "user guide" than "reference manual", which is the majority of what I've come across). I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

Thing is about Linux is that it's not like Windows. That's an obvious statement, right? Apparently not...

When you own a computer, you're usually in charge of keeping it running, and making it work right. You're that machine's administrator, basically. Whether it's Windows, Linux, or Mac even, installing drivers and configuring things is part of owning or administering your system.

Like fancypiper said, you shouldn't expect to come into Linux "greenly" and get everything working and be productive immediately. Heck, even depending on your hardware, being productive could actually be months away. When you say you've become, though unwillingly, a budding sysadmin, you're right on point. Linux might not be more complex than Windows from a programming standpoint, but IMHO the base configuration can be more complicated.

My advice: Throw most everything you know about Windows out the window. What will benefit you from the outset in learning Linux is a good base knowledge of hardware and the concepts associated with it, like irqs, ioports, and the like. Once you get a good base in this, sit back for a moment. Get a pen and paper if you need to, but decide what you want Linux to do, or what you want to do with Linux. If you make a list, then you can start tackling things one-by-one, and your knowledge will grow.

The cool thing about Linux is, though, in the process of trying to learn maybe 5 or 6 tasks that you wanted to do, you end up learning loads of system administration skills. Also, I know when I read the documentation, it gives me ideas for other projects to start working on...

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by molossermom

first - I don't have a key on any of my keyboards with the 90degree up and down line ( a cross between a / and a \ ) how do i make this ?


It only shows up on here as a vertical line. It is actually the pipe symbol which is 2 small vertical lines on top of each other. It is on the same key as \ on my keyboard.

[JohnT]

I have 2 older modems . They are both Lucent chipsets - (apollo and mars; a pci and an isa) I went to Http://www.idir.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html#drivers but the page it directed me to was not what I was used to seeing as something i could download - it wasn't clear which to use, 6.00, 6.11, peoples names, dates etc.. any direction so i can learn more here will be appreciated.

If it were me I would invest in a good Zoom external modem if you plan on keeping Linux. Actually even if you don't.
Do you have the chipset numbers?
Here's the page you need for reference when you find the numbers.

http://www.idir.net/~gromitkc/dips/roster.html

[Elijah]

Where is the fun in using windows? all I do all day is reformat then install stuff and I watch my computer freeze up and won't boot again. Windows is terrible :mad: It never does things right.
My Redhat 7.3 however almost never freezes up on me, only happens (and I'm aware of it) when I've done something wrong. Windows crashes when I least expect it. I have'nt counted how many times I reformatted my hd using my winme and even xp.
But I do admit that linux is hard to learn but it sure feels great when I've fixed things up one problem at a time. The challenge is here :D

[windoze killa]

Please don't think I am sticking up for NanoMush (smaller than micro and softer than soft) here but why do so many people seem to reformat and reinstall windoze? One of my machines at home had win95 installed on it back in 96 and has been upgraded and ghosted ever since. It is currently 98se but I have never done a fresh install sine the first installation of 95 and I don't see why it should be necessary. I have ghosted the partitions on to new drives and just had to reinstall drivers when upgrading hardware. It also very rarely chashes.

PS. I am ready for the influx of comments.

[Elijah]

For some reason I was never contented with my winme, somehow It always shows me the lovely error messges and cool restarts for no reason.
I simply reformat and install everything again to refresh that taint, whatever it is.

I don't however totally hate windows that much, In fact I still use it despite it's annoyances to me. I still hang on to xp and winme for some programs that I can't leave yet.

[sasKuatch]

windoze killa, I know some people that have that sort of 'magic' setup that runs beautifully, and actually, so do I on my desktop. This usually happens when you don't do anything with it (like installing software, drivers, etc). As such, windows requires constant attention and tinkering to keep working.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Yeah... Most people start installing all kinds of chat clients (pronounced "Why can't I run ICQ, AIM and 5 instances of Yahoo Messenger at once?) and they just accept the defaults when it comes to installing things like Gator, BonziBuddy and other "enhancements" that are really just spyware jokes intended to track your web activities and then eventually muck up the works of Windows.

Also, some people don't know how to effectively use the registry. If you screw up installing a program, it may have still left a registry entry. I've spent no end of time fixing problems on my box because of registry entries of screwed up installs.

The only time I reformat is when I've needed to repartition, like if I made a partition too big or too small. I only rarely do that, as I've gotten it down to a science on my box as to how big I need my partitons.

Just like Linux, if a user pays attention to what they're doing, they can have a reasonably stable Windows install and not end up having to reformat every month and a half...

[ferreter]

Originally posted by windoze killa
Please don't think I am sticking up for NanoMush (smaller than micro and softer than soft) here but why do so many people seem to reformat and reinstall windoze? One of my machines at home had win95 installed on it back in 96 and has been upgraded and ghosted ever since. It is currently 98se but I have never done a fresh install sine the first installation of 95 and I don't see why it should be necessary. I have ghosted the partitions on to new drives and just had to reinstall drivers when upgrading hardware. It also very rarely chashes.

PS. I am ready for the influx of comments.

Most computer experts agree that a fresh install of a 9x machine is required every 6 months for the best performance (and least crashes). I don't know what you did to keep yours running for so long but good work! That's an accomplishment if I've ever heard of one. But do you think an average user can keep a win machine up for 6 years w/o issues?

On a side note I just tried out knoppix the other day on a pIII 800 w/ 256 RAM and it worked beautifully. I'm going to make copies for my friends and relatives and hand them out like tracts!

[brad_p]

Originally posted by mackstar
I know you linux fans won't like to hear this, but I wish it worked as easily as windows.

I'm running a dual boot Win2K / Redhat 7.3beta (null) [yes, call me crazy] machine. I had less trouble installing and running redhat than I did Win2k. I'm still looking for the distribution that fits me, but Linux runs just as good as Windows, IMHO>

[Elijah]

Yes, Windows and Linux do require some attention to get it working. I was so used to the wysiwyg and 'easy' interface of windows that I just pass on the more difficult setups in like the registry for example. I rarely use dos and all I've learned in windows is point-&-click. Another reason for my quick formatting are maybe some viruses, trojans, and lastly I was never contented with the install that I just did.
Call me paranoid or whatever but I was never just 'contented' with windows.

Linux pushed me (because of it's difficulty :) ) away from the boredom and slight annoyance of windows. It's a bad habit of me to just format away when there is at least just a few unknown errors (kids, don't try this at home). but at least I learned how to fdisk that way :D . besides that, point-&-click, gui-based programming, and the 'basics' are the only things that I can remember I've learned in windows. :(

[rpcyan]

Linux works great on my old Thinkpad. With a 4gb drive and a 366 celeron, I didn't think the thing had much life left. Boy was I wrong! Works great on it, a couple PIIs I have, and AMD K6-II, and my PIII file server. Only ran into troubles with my P4, (if you want more info just check out my other posts), but most of those are squared away now, primarily thanks to you guys on LNO. Thanks again, and hail Tux!:D

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
windoze killa, I know some people that have that sort of 'magic' setup that runs beautifully, and actually, so do I on my desktop. This usually happens when you don't do anything with it (like installing software, drivers, etc). As such, windows requires constant attention and tinkering to keep working.

I wouldn't call it a "magic" setup. I just pay attention to what am doing and sometimes use a prog called clean sweep that monitors what you install so if you uninstall it it wil remove EVERYTHING including all the registry entries that would normally get left behind. I also never select defaults when I install. The only things that ever get installed on C:\ are system type things. All games go on D:\ and apps/utils go on E:\.

Guess I am just lucky with this machine.

The other one is a different story. Installed XP a while ago and can not get my burner to work. Last night I installed XCDRoast and WOW, so easy and worked second go. Just have to get winex working now.

[bammbamm808]

Originally posted by Josebr
I had my first Linux orgasm

What distro are you using again? I'd like to try it.

[dunbar]

We need Linux oriented hardware and we need it NOW.

A minor thing just stomped me flat: A PS/2 mouse from Memorex (model unknown) would freeze Mandrakes 8.1 and 8.2, and Red Hat 7.1, exactly at the point where the mouse was being detected. It was obvious that the mouse was the problem, but I only solved the problem by tossing the Memorex mouse out, and putting in a (cough cough) Microsoft PS/2 mouse.

WinModems, WinVideo cards, WinKeyboards, WinPrinters, and now WinMice.
The point is that all your modern hardware is being designed for some version of the Windows OS to provide some of the device functions....

No windows = missing functions.

Is there any wonder, then, that devices designed for Windows OS are not working on any different (and coincidentally competitive) operating systems?? Not surprising to me, since those device companies won't even return my emails asking for Linux suport: Linux people do not represent a big market to them right now. In the mean time, until Linux gets loud and ugly enough, try using slightly older hardware, the aging process allows time to pass, which time is spent coding the Linux replacements for the missing 'OS specific' portions of the device functions.

Me, I'm going to fire off an email to Memorex asking why their slimy little mouse was not using the standard PS/2 mouse commands.

[Odin]

Originally posted by rdrr
bah! :mad:

What other choices do I have? Windows? Spending time with the wife and kids? Finishing that project I never started?

:D

I love your signature. That was one of my favorite bits of dialogue in that movie--except when they're traveling through the mist on the river and shooting arrows of fire into the air calling out my name. :D

[sasKuatch]

The only things that ever get installed on C:\ are system type things. All games go on D:\ and apps/utils go on E:\.

Very similar to what I have. Surprising how some people can stand have ONE huge 60 gig drive with EVERYthing on it. The person that does that also can't stand not using his puter as admin or root. He feels he needs the 'power'. oddly enough, he uses windows still.:rolleyes:

[filp]

I think this is a great post, helping people to get into linux. The community is what makes linux great. The only questions I don't help with are ones with the answer on the first page of a google search. The "it's easier to bug some one else than do even the smallest amount of work myself" attitude is becomming all too common.

Filp.

[CrashTestDummy9]

Originally posted by sasKuatch


Very similar to what I have. Surprising how some people can stand have ONE huge 60 gig drive with EVERYthing on it. The person that does that also can't stand not using his puter as admin or root. He feels he needs the 'power'. oddly enough, he uses windows still.:rolleyes: I cant break the habit of running my OS as root (i change **** all the time ) . But I also know how to partition and I know the value of it . I prefer multiple physical drives to partitions anyway . I guess ive got a lot to learn .

[pzengota]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
For those about to quit...
"...we salute you!"

Sorry, I'm an AC/DC fan...:D

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by pzengota

"...we salute you!"

Sorry, I'm an AC/DC fan...:D

And who isn't?

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by pzengota

"...we salute you!"

Sorry, I'm an AC/DC fan...:D

That's actually why I posted this: I just got an AC/DC t-shirt that has the cannon on the front and says "For those about to rock" on the front and "WE SALUTE YOU!" on the back.:)

[CrashTestDummy9]

AC/DC rulez . I have a ticket stub from Back in Black concert in Colombus Ohio .

[ben-myy]

Hello guys and gals,
Why do most people want to compare between Linux and other os when they are only willing to give Linux the OLD hardware while giving the latest hardware for other OS?

I think Linux is superb, even greater when put on newer machines. Even os such as MS need better machines for their new versions. :D

[MartinB]

Originally posted by ben-myy
Hello guys and gals,
Why do most people want to compare between Linux and other os when they are only willing to give Linux the OLD hardware while giving the latest hardware for other OS?

I think Linux is superb, even greater when put on newer machines. Even os such as MS need better machines for their new versions. :D
I have to agree with that. I wouldn't even think about putting Linux on my older machines. I did use Mandrake 7.0 about two years ago, most of my hardware was not compatible with it (modem, vid card, sound card etc.) so I gave up back then. This time, I've upgraded my computer with components that I know will work in Linux and got a nice big hard disk to dual boot until I'm comfortable doing everything in Linux. I've gotta say, it's worked out superbly for me.

Actually, the only thing that really gets me about Linux is with installing some programs from source. I'm learned this from installing my LFS system; it seems that many programs need "work arounds" to install correctly that I would have simply never have been able to figure out without the LFS book.

[sharth]

On the mouse problem...

Email memorex, They probably won't mind helping you out since as far as I know they have no direct windows asscoiation. I mean, cds are for linux too :). Probably to make it work you just need to siable the old ps/2 mouse drivers and create new ones for the memorex mice. OR go help the people with the ps/2 mice drivers and try to get it supported.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by CrashTestDummy9
AC/DC rulez . I have a ticket stub from Back in Black concert in Colombus Ohio .

I saw them perform TNT and some other old stuff way back in 197? with Bon Scot. Just luck to be Australian I guess.

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by ben-myy
Hello guys and gals,
Why do most people want to compare between Linux and other os when they are only willing to give Linux the OLD hardware while giving the latest hardware for other OS?

I think Linux is superb, even greater when put on newer machines. Even os such as MS need better machines for their new versions. :D

I don't know about other people, but I don't think you need to keep the old hardware for linux. I do think that some machines have anti-linux firmware hidden somewhere in them, however.:D

[Jagged2600]

I have come to find Linux as addictive as crack (not like I do crack or anything, but you get my point). It started a while ago. I was an avid C++ programmer, with the latest MSVC++, etc. I had known that linux existed but not given it much thought.

It wasn't until I was running through the internet on some C-related question that I came across "whats this, GCC... a free C compiler.. hrm, tell me more"

Come to find out it's for Linux. Hrm, what is this OS I've heard so much about...

So I get an old buddy of mine to lend me his RH 7.1 CD's. St up my dual boot Win2kPro and Linux.

Neat looking KDE was. Didn't do too much with linux, it was neat to have, but that's all I could do.

Time goes on, the university has software that I have to use through MS, so not much linux.

Get home from college... "oh yea, i've got linux"

Download the latest RH 7.3, install linux again, this time on a dual boot with WinXP-Pro and another 80 GB hdd to boot (not /boot, the phrase ;) ). It wasn't but a day afterwards when I was installing GCC 3.2 and my wireless lan drivers that I realized something.... open source. How did these people do that? Let me find out!

Now about a month later, the only money I've spent is on books, lots of books... I already had C/C++ bibles out the wazoo. Now I've got Java, Perl, Apache, Linux, and Python references filling up half a bookcase.

I can't learn enough :) As soon as I figure something out, I can find something else. The only reason why WinXP is still on my machine is because of this blasted software the university's engineering department requires me to have (yea yea, I know about WINE).

But back to my main point, linux is addictive as all hell. Is it sad when I look forward to coming home from work/school so i can fiddle with my box? Naw, of course not! Not everyone knows how to recompile their kernel. Hell, you can't even do that with MicroShaft, you have to go download their latest ServicePack, pay xxx $$$$ to uprgrade to their latest Proprietary software that never works correctly.

[Lou67]

Thanks for your encouragement. I just chucked my Mandrake 8.1 CD's for fear that I'd try just one more time -- at the further detriment of my time and sanity -- to get it running. I think I'll give SuSE 8.0 a shot.

[CrashTestDummy9]

Originally posted by Jagged2600


But back to my main point, linux is addictive as all hell. Is it sad when I look forward to coming home from work/school so i can fiddle with my box? Naw, of course not! Not everyone knows how to recompile their kernel. Hell, you can't even do that with MicroShaft, you have to go download their latest ServicePack, pay xxx $$$$ to uprgrade to their latest Proprietary software that never works correctly. The only thing better than fiddling with your Linux box is fiddling with your wifes .

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by CrashTestDummy9
The only thing better than fiddling with your Linux box is fiddling with your wifes .

Or somebody elses wifes. :D

[sasKuatch]

One problem that pops up often has to do with instructions. They never seem to work (for me at least). So what do I do? Chill out and take my own advice:)

So if you feel that something isn't working just because it doesn't like you, just think of me, using linux for 3 years now, and some stuff still won't work. So don't feel bad.

[Tanatz]

Yea, I feel the same way. I started with Mandrake 8.2 about a month ago now, went back to Windows XP Pro for 3 days, went back to Mandrake....gave up for a week, but the Linux world kept calling me, so to make it seem like I was 'starting fresh', I tried RedHat 7.3, bought RedHat 7.3 for Dummies!....the placebo effect in action


But ya, I'm just getting around to recompiling my kernel, I just found a walkthrough that I think I can understand :P Next task is building a nice firewall, then trying to get my sound booming the way it did in Windows ( I'm a perfectionist I guess, IT HAS TO BE PERFECT ASDGA{FIUHBA!! )


I imagine it working like a dream when it finally does...this is my at home hobby...something to look foward to.

[l33tman]

for those about to quit, why not try DemoLinux which does not use the hard drive at all but boots from a cdrom. This is a great way to learn Linux. I am having problems with Mandrake 9.0 detecting my GeForce2 video card. Spawning too fast. So, I am back to DemoLinux (Knoppix) with Debian.
Check it out.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/

[sasKuatch]

Thanks for the link. Have you tried the nVidia drivers?

[Allen15]

Originally posted by ferreter


Most computer experts agree that a fresh install of a 9x machine is required every 6 months for the best performance (and least crashes). I don't know what you did to keep yours running for so long but good work! That's an accomplishment if I've ever heard of one. But do you think an average user can keep a win machine up for 6 years w/o issues?

On a side note I just tried out knoppix the other day on a pIII 800 w/ 256 RAM and it worked beautifully. I'm going to make copies for my friends and relatives and hand them out like tracts!

In a word, no. But I know that they can be made to be (that)stable?

[Allen15]

Originally posted by sasKuatch


I don't know about other people, but I don't think you need to keep the old hardware for linux. I do think that some machines have anti-linux firmware hidden somewhere in them, however.:D

Maybe not keep such, but it is a good use for older equipment that will no longer run the recent M$ garbage, or for that matter, the latest anything?

I run Freesco on a 486 w/ 16 Mb RAM at home as a router/firewall, and that is essentially a micro-install of Slackware 3.9, running on a ramdisk only, with no hard drive, and booting from a floppy. That PC is not likely to be of much use to me in any other fashion, but it does DHCP for my home LAN, printserver, timeserver, NAT, firewalling and a few other things in it's current configuration? And to do all that with Windows2K, I would have to use a much more expensive PC running Win2KServer... Go figure?

[Allen15]

One thing I found out (the hard way) is that cutting corners on one's hardware choices will often cause much weeping and gnashing of teeth in the (Linux) software installation process. To second that motion, don't give up on Linux, you may actually be up against a hardware related problem that Windoze glossed over, but Linux refuses to ignore? If all else fails try different distributions as they have varying degrees of hardware compatibility...

Just my $0.02 :)

[LinuxBox624]

Originally posted by mrBen
Go Newbies, YAY :D

Definitely worth every second of hair-pulling-out-time.

Amen to that brotha! You learn something new everyday with Linux. How many people can say that about WinBlows?

[tshack]

Thnx Very much for all the encouraging words, though I am not thinking of quiting(I just start), but I have much more confidence in Linux. It isn't the question whether LInux wins Windows but when. More people will enter this battle.:)

[Xombius_Rex]

Originally posted by rdrr
bah! :mad:

What other choices do I have? Windows? Spending time with the wife and kids? Finishing that project I never started?

:D


Lo , there do I see my father .
Lo , there do I see my mother and my sisters and my brothers .
Lo, do I see the line of my people back to begining .
Lo , do they call to me .

They bid me take my place among them in the halls of Valhala.

Where the brave shall live, Forever !


One of my favorite movies of all time. Now back on topic. I'm a dabbler. I use XP PRo for the most part but I've been using Linux on and off since SUSE 6.2 When I do use Linux I use Mandrake as that has been the easiest distro for me to install and configure. I only use it to go online, play games (I love Falcon's Eye Nethack!) and write documents in open office. I've gotten to the point that I'm almost as comfortable using it as I am with windows. What would make it easier is if I didn't need to use the command line at all. I know a lot of Linux pro's prefer it but honestly most people didn't get into windows until they have to know Dos and I feel it'll be the same way in Linux. The average desk top user doesn't want to know how something works. They just want to be able to point and click. Linux is much closer to that goal but not quite there yet. I'll keep using it and enjoying it myself though. :)

Never Give Up! Never Surrender!

[Elijah]

Originally posted by Xombius_Rex

What would make it easier is if I didn't need to use the command line at all. I know a lot of Linux pro's prefer it but honestly most people didn't get into windows until they have to know Dos and I feel it'll be the same way in Linux. The average desk top user doesn't want to know how something works. They just want to be able to point and click. Linux is much closer to that goal but not quite there yet. I'll keep using it and enjoying it myself though. :)

I'm not a linux pro, but I love the command line :D
It's the hacker-like look that got me into linux aside from other reasons .... GUI is important too, I agree.

[scruff]

I figured I would add my two cents here. I have only been using Linux for two weeks, but I have already pretty much given up on Windoze. The only time I boot into windows is to use Outlook Express for school (working on a bachlers in I.T.). As soon as I get something setup for Linux, I won't have any reason to use windoze.
I use Linux for most of the same reasons as everyone else. Tired of Micro$oft's monopolistic business practices, privacy invasion, and the way they try to limit my choices.
For those about to quit, just remember how little you knew when you first started using windows. I remember it took a little while for me to understand the filesystem, and the different file extentions, etc. Once I got the basics down, I started to manipulate it to my liking. Linux will be just like that, except the choices are endless:)

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by Allen15
One thing I found out (the hard way) is that cutting corners on one's hardware choices will often cause much weeping and gnashing of teeth in the (Linux) software installation process. To second that motion, don't give up on Linux, you may actually be up against a hardware related problem that Windoze glossed over, but Linux refuses to ignore? If all else fails try different distributions as they have varying degrees of hardware compatibility...

Just my $0.02 :)

My point exactly. Thanks for rewording it better.

[lrenfrew]

The cry that Linux is better than Windows is the Macintosh Mantra 10 years later. "We are better, because we are different." Sorry, 4% of the market beleives that, the other 96% are happy to leave them to their fantasy while they get some work done. The vast majority of Linux systems in use are servers that compete with other Unix products, and to some degree with Windows 2000 server. Thats a great role for linux.

I love Linux. Its challenging to learn, but it allows me a great deal of control over my system. I am enjoying learning all the aspects of BIND, SendMail, Apache, MySQL, etc. Its cheap, fast, and runs well on old machines I have.

But it will definately never be more than a speed bump on the highway of desktop OS's, much the way the Mac has been. Despite the fact that Mac fanatics will tell you their OS is best, Microsoft owns that market because their products are relatively cheap, stable enough for most to get their work done, easy to learn, and the PC at their new company is almost identical to the PC they left at their old company. Most people would be happy with an Etch-a-Sketch if they could get their work done and be home in time to watch a rerun of friends.

So despite all the people saying that Linux is best, its little more than a footnote in anything other than the back office server market. :eek: But in that role, its well suited because its cheap, fast, and is growing rapidly.

May the Schwartz be with you ...

[windoze killa]

For all the Windows is better than Linux and the Linux is better than Windows people below is a link to ponder over. Linux is better than Windows because it is more configurable and you have more control over your system.

Well, hang on to your hats, and even better, hang on to your OLD software and hardware.

Interesting reading:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

[sasKuatch]

I didn't switch to linux just because it's challenging and makes a good server OS. All the pros you mentioned about linux that make it excel in the server market also come in handy in a desktop OS. Why do you think M$ has taken their server OS and put it into the desktop? Coz security, stability, and price (which they don't understand) matter.

I wouldn't call a 30 FPS boost in UT with linux vs. windows "We are better, because we are different." No matter whos book you go by, that's better. Better is better. Whether the dumb masses realize that is not the point. The point is that it is better.

[evdama]

I am somewhere in the middle of the two extremes noted in this thread.
I had major aggro just getting the damn thing installed and although Im impressed with what I see,and the OS has got most of my devices working first time, I have to agree with matrix on the point of learning curves and documentation.
I picked Windows up all by my little self from the (enforced) starting point of Absolute Blind Hatred of computers to my current state of building my own and freinds machines and spending every spare minute at a keyboard (and loving it)
Windows is therefore highly intuitive.
Linux is not.
If it werent for the people on this site ( THANK YOU ) I would have given the disks away.
My below average brain cannot cope with the cryptic nature a newbie is confronted with.
My job involves training people and the majority of people learn best by the hands-on-doing-it method so no amount of help files ("RTFM" nazis take note") will assist however well they are written.
This hurdle will prevent linux reaching mainstream.Maybe thats the idea-we all enjoy a bit of exclusivity...
As it is I will persevere.
Nice post sasKuatch-its helped a lot :)

[sasKuatch]

Trust me, if you use linux any amount of time, it will grow on you and become second nature. Linux used to seem wierd at first, I had to click odd buttons to get things done, etc. But then I realized I can customize, and I'm never going back to windoze. If linux dies, so does my computer usage, because, chances are that if it dies, so will the "awsomeness" of computers. They will become like ATMs, blackboxes in one's home. If linux dies, my new hobby will either be kit car building, paintballing, model building, or all of the above.

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
I didn't switch to linux just because it's challenging and makes a good server OS. All the pros you mentioned about linux that make it excel in the server market also come in handy in a desktop OS. Why do you think M$ has taken their server OS and put it into the desktop? Coz security, stability, and price (which they don't understand) matter.

I wouldn't call a 30 FPS boost in UT with linux vs. windows "We are better, because we are different." No matter whos book you go by, that's better. Better is better. Whether the dumb masses realize that is not the point. The point is that it is better.

Go ask the BetaMax guys and the OS2 guys about having the "better" product. Like I said its a cheap and powerful server OS. But walk into a 100 companies and give them all the reasons why Linux is a better desktop OS and watch them zone out. For hobbiests and guys like us who like to build our own systems. Linux is a great desktop.

The "dumb masses" are also known as "the market". No one forces the market to do anything. When they pick a product they do it because its best for them (collectively). So one can certainly say that the market has made Windows the best desktop OS. No amount of hand wringing is going to change that. The market listens neither to me or you.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by lrenfrew


Go ask the BetaMax guys and the OS2 guys about having the "better" product. Like I said its a cheap and powerful server OS. But walk into a 100 companies and give them all the reasons why Linux is a better desktop OS and watch them zone out. For hobbiests and guys like us who like to build our own systems. Linux is a great desktop.

The "dumb masses" are also known as "the market". No one forces the market to do anything. When they pick a product they do it because its best for them (collectively). So one can certainly say that the market has made Windows the best desktop OS. No amount of hand wringing is going to change that. The market listens neither to me or you.

I think you're wrong. Windows was pretty much the only GUI out there, and DOS had cornered the 'market' because of all the pirate copies out there.

The dumb masses do what their boss tells them. People originally took PCs home to do work on them, and their work ran Windows, and so did they. If their boss ordered them to use Linux (or OS/2 or MacOS), how long do you think it would be for that to filter from the commercial desktop to the home market?

Oh, and Windows 3.0 was just as temperamental and difficult to install as people say that Linux is, but a lot less stable and usable.

Here endeth the rant.

[lrenfrew]

Good points all MrBen. I can see you have given this some thought.
Windows was pretty much the only GUI out there, and
DOS had cornered the 'market' because of all the pirate copies out there.
There have been Unix GUI's around as long as there has been Windows. Sun, HP, and IBM have had UNIX GUI's around for a decade. Even with the recent rash of inexpensive lowend hardware platforms from these companies (comprable to Linux on X86 in price), their GUI's never made it onto the business side of most companies. Linux wont either.
The dumb masses do what their boss tells them. People originally took PCs home to do work on them, and their work ran Windows, and so did they. If their boss ordered them to use Linux (or OS/2 or MacOS), how long do you think it would be for that to filter from the commercial desktop to the home market?
Unless your a technical person, you boss will never tell you to use Linux. Most non-technical bosses are focused on accomplishing their tasks and they will never do anything to make it more difficult for them or their employees to do that. Most of these bosses are doing well to utilize their insanely easy to use windows computer as it is.
Oh, and Windows 3.0 was just as temperamental and difficult to install as people say that Linux is, but a lot less stable and usable.
Good point. If the Linux we know and love today was around back then, and someone in the Linux camp had the marketing and business savvy that Bill Gates had, then Linux might have become the dominant desktop OS. But, thats a closed chapter and the world that Linux is competing in is very different than the world that Windows 3.0 was competing in.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by lrenfrew
Good points all MrBen. I can see you have given this some thought.

Thank You :D



There have been Unix GUI's around as long as there has been Windows. Sun, HP, and IBM have had UNIX GUI's around for a decade. Even with the recent rash of inexpensive lowend hardware platforms from these companies (comprable to Linux on X86 in price), their GUI's never made it onto the business side of most companies. Linux wont either.



How many Unix GUIs were there on Desktop Computers? When the IBM PC started to become dominant, there wasn't a prominent x86 *nix, IIRC.



Unless your a technical person, you boss will never tell you to use Linux. Most non-technical bosses are focused on accomplishing their tasks and they will never do anything to make it more difficult for them or their employees to do that. Most of these bosses are doing well to utilize their insanely easy to use windows computer as it is.



Not convinced - there are enough companies now experimenting with Linux both on PC desktops and thin-client desktops to make it possible. If you sit in front of a Linux desktop that was setup for you by the company tech, and you can do your mail, surf the web and do your office stuff, and at the same time are unlikely to get virii, will have problems installing any 'illicit' software and can't 'damage' anything but your home directory, plus the cost bonus, wouldn't your manager find that tempting?

When I started work 2 years ago I was on OS/2, like a whole other bunch of folk who don't know a computer from their elbow. And they coped. They cope with Win95 now. And I reckon they would cope with Linux, because for them it's not the OS, its the applications (which in our case is Lotus Notes for mail, and Lotus Smartsuite for office).



Good point. If the Linux we know and love today was around back then, and someone in the Linux camp had the marketing and business savvy that Bill Gates had, then Linux might have become the dominant desktop OS. But, thats a closed chapter and the world that Linux is competing in is very different than the world that Windows 3.0 was competing in.

But Linux is also developing faster than Windows ever did. I really do think Linux could become the dominant desktop OS. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of your life ;)

[scruff]

OS/2 and Win 95?! Dude, where do you work?!

[mrBen]

Originally posted by scruff
OS/2 and Win 95?! Dude, where do you work?!

IBM Call Centre - Hard Drive Tech Support :D

But don't tell them I told you ;)

[scruff]

Man, are there any advantages for you at work using win 95? I never used it. I started with BASIC, then DOS, then didn't touch a computer till win 98 was the "old" OS. I got ME, then 2000, XP, and now linux. It just seems IBM would have something a little more modern.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by scruff
Man, are there any advantages for you at work using win 95? I never used it. I started with BASIC, then DOS, then didn't touch a computer till win 98 was the "old" OS. I got ME, then 2000, XP, and now linux. It just seems IBM would have something a little more modern.

Cost of not having to spend the gross national product of a small country on upgrading the machines (hardware/software in some cases).

The systems work fine - why bother to upgrade?

Plus I don't think IBM really like M$ - I was kinda hoping to get a *nix desktop - there is substantial Linux interest internally, but I don't get to control what I have on my desk :(

[Krugelstadt]

That is actually true in most senses because alot of companies began on the premise of something "User Friendly", even though when you push that "I Agree" statement button to sell your soul, er...... agree to microsoft policies.

After toying with those, companies began to realize what they could do with that dumb thing, and ended up hiring programmers to begin work on making programs that suited the company, and other similar companes began to catch on. Sorta like in a box of matches, one match lit, causes a roaring fire.

I myslef am pretty new to Linux. I have been playing with it off and on through the years but was discouraged by the problems I did not understand how to solve, and regretfully returned to windows.

Now I am wanting to jump in full force into this O.S. and not frown on Windows anymore, but applaud for an introduction into something bigger and better. It's a tool. That's what it was intended to be used as.
And I plan to drag as many people along with me into Linux, kicking and screaming. lol.

Thanks for this site guys. It's definantly someplace to rely on the next few years until I'm out of college. My biggest hold up was gaming for windows, now made possible via binaries and WineX. w00t!!!!!

[lrenfrew]

really do think Linux could become the dominant desktop OS. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of your life ;)

Man I love you sense of humor :eek: Seems IBM made the same claim about MCA hardware and OS2 software. The Macintosh devotees also said the same thing back in 1992. A few years ago it was the thin-client revolution, java based clients on every desktop.

Its nice to know that hope springs eternal and Linux devotees now have the fever. Its a great desktop OS for techno guys. Its a great server for everyone. But its got about as much potential to displace Windows on the desktop as I do of being on the cover of GQ. And please, please, PLEase dont repeat that line that if you build it they will come. If you gave a department full of marketing/sales/admin people preconfigured linux desktops, they wouldnt march merrily onward. They would get you and your boss replaced! LOL IT does not drive business productivity decisions. Business needs drive IT requirements.

Its a mad Mad MAd MAD world ...

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by lrenfrew


Go ask the BetaMax guys and the OS2 guys about having the "better" product. Like I said its a cheap and powerful server OS. But walk into a 100 companies and give them all the reasons why Linux is a better desktop OS and watch them zone out. For hobbiests and guys like us who like to build our own systems. Linux is a great desktop.

The "dumb masses" are also known as "the market". No one forces the market to do anything. When they pick a product they do it because its best for them (collectively). So one can certainly say that the market has made Windows the best desktop OS. No amount of hand wringing is going to change that. The market listens neither to me or you.

What did VHS have? A superior price.

I wonder, Irenfrew, what you mean by difficult and non-user-friendly, because when I boot into windows once or twice a week, I'm hopeless. I forgot what it's like to be mad at windows. A day wouldn't go by when I'd rip my hair out halfway through a project when my lovely O$ would stop responding, and I noticed that I hadn't saved yet (or it forgot that I saved, etc). Where do you think that whole "Save often" advice comes from? wINDOZE!

I'm so blissfully ignorant when using linux, that when I'm in windows, I just sit there, trying to reaccustom myself with is quirks and annoyances. I'm just as bad as everybody else: I just want it to work. Sure, the linux learning curve is steep, but you're done with that once it works. In more eloquent terms, the learning curve plateus sooner and flatter.

And the market would take much better to linux if they knew it existed. But thanks to microsoft, people don't know the difference between operating system and web browser. They just know that computers have icons on the screen and one of them is 'My computer", and another is "Recycle bin". Frankly, I think we should raise some brand-awareness about Operating Systems, and show people that they have choice, just like when buying computers and cars, and toasters, and underwear, and silverwear, and chewing gum, and condoms, and on, and on...

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by sasKuatch


Frankly, I think we should raise some brand-awareness about Operating Systems, and show people that they have choice, just like when buying computers and cars, and toasters, and underwear, and silverwear, and chewing gum, and condoms, and on, and on...

I do. Whenever I sell a PC I suggest that they allow me to install or help them install Linux as well as that "other" OS. I have been plesntly surprised at the response I get from some of my customers. In particular when they ask how much will it cost and I tell them that it is free a common statement is "Why can't M$ do it like this?"

I must admit that some say to delete it because it confuses them but this number is going down.

[bammbamm808]

Originally posted by mrBen
Oh, and Windows 3.0 was just as temperamental and difficult to install as people say that Linux is, but a lot less stable and usable.

Hallelujah! That's exactly what I've been telling people. There was a fair amount of tinkering involved in getting devices/software to work. Nearly as much as in linux today, but with way less control. Plus, the finished Win3.x system was an unstable nighmare that performed terribly.

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by bammbamm808


Hallelujah! That's exactly what I've been telling people. There was a fair amount of tinkering involved in getting devices/software to work. Nearly as much as in linux today, but with way less control. Plus, the finished Win3.x system was an unstable nighmare that performed terribly.

How silly. Your arguement is like Ford selling its 2003 autos by saying they are better, faster, cheaper than a 1950 Chevy. Problem is the consumer isnt comparing 2003 Fords to 1950 Chevys nor are they comparing Linux to Win 3.0. If Win 3.0 was the consumers only choice Linux would have a good chance to win the desktop. Like I said before, thats a closed book. Consumers compare Linux desktops to WinXP and Win2K. And for all their faults Windows has three things going for their desktop OS. MS Office works on them and consumers are comfortable with that, Consumers probable have already run another Windows machine so they feel comfortable with that, and XP/2K are relatively stable and easy to operate platforms.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by lrenfrew


How silly. Your arguement is like Ford selling its 2003 autos by saying they are better, faster, cheaper than a 1950 Chevy. Problem is the consumer isnt comparing 2003 Fords to 1950 Chevys nor are they comparing Linux to Win 3.0. If Win 3.0 was the consumers only choice Linux would have a good chance to win the desktop. Like I said before, thats a closed book. Consumers compare Linux desktops to WinXP and Win2K. And for all their faults Windows has three things going for their desktop OS. MS Office works on them and consumers are comfortable with that, Consumers probable have already run another Windows machine so they feel comfortable with that, and XP/2K are relatively stable and easy to operate platforms.

No. I was making the point that people still used Windows 3.0, despite the fact that in comparison to Macs at that time, it was clunky and bad. But people still bought PCs/Windows. Why? Because they were cheaper (the main reason IMHO).

In the same way people bought VHS over Betamax because of price.

Linux is both cheaper _and_ technologically superior to Windows, and therefore it would seem to be a reasonable conclusion that it will become a dominant force in the Desktop arena.

[Peppe316]

The only reason M$ is popular is becuase it is n00b friendly. You can take it out of the box install and you are up and running just like that. With the user friendlyness comes downfalls becuase you are forced to include more packages then you need. Unlike linux were you can add/remove pretty much whatever you want.
(This was prob. already stated but I'm on dialup and didn't want to go through all the pages :D )

Anyway, Stay with linux....it's taken me some 3-4+ years on and off and I finally got a gateway/firewall working. Takes lots of reading and don't let the "RTFM" people get you down. Eventually you will find a non "RTFM-is-the-only-answer" person to help you out now and then.

yay for linux :D

[mrBen]

Originally posted by Peppe316
The only reason M$ is popular is becuase it is n00b friendly. You can take it out of the box install and you are up and running just like that.

Most people have _never_ done an Windows install. It's 'user friendly' because they have never had to do an install.

And as for the OS - BSOD is not very user friendly, neither are some of the setup problems you get.

It'll be interesting to see what impact cheap, pre-installed Linux boxes will make on people's perceptions.


Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Linux is the best ever newbie OS, I just don't think that Windows is a User Friendly as everyone makes out.

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by mrBen


No. I was making the point that people still used Windows 3.0, despite the fact that in comparison to Macs at that time, it was clunky and bad. But people still bought PCs/Windows. Why? Because they were cheaper (the main reason IMHO).

In the same way people bought VHS over Betamax because of price.

Linux is both cheaper _and_ technologically superior to Windows, and therefore it would seem to be a reasonable conclusion that it will become a dominant force in the Desktop arena.

I agree. It would seem to be but it just wont. Microsoft wont give up that easily. They will do whatever they need to maintain their monopoly. Linux will be an option on the desktop, but it will simply never overcome the MS momentum. Why you ask? (notice how I use your voice in that qustion :rolleyes: ) For every user that cares that its better and "technologically" superior. dozens could care less. For every user that hates windows bad enough to switch, dozens dont. They get their work done on their windows desktop and there is simply no meaningful reason to complicate their lives be caring about which desktop OS they use.

None of us will know the answer for at least 5 more years. So I will make you the same offer I made to a Mac Devotee back in 1995. Steak dinner to you if you can randomly pick a downtown office building and randomly pick two offices where someone(other than the geeks) at both offices has even seen a Linux desktop system. Two steak dinners if anyone (other than the geeks) at both offices is using a Linux as their primary desktop. Havent had to pay yet, doubt I will for you.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by lrenfrew


They get their work done on their windows desktop and there is simply no meaningful reason to complicate their lives be caring about which desktop OS they use.



Exactly. They don't care. But their managers care about their profit margin.




None of us will know the answer for at least 5 more years. So I will make you the same offer I made to a Mac Devotee back in 1995. Steak dinner to you if you can randomly pick a downtown office building and randomly pick two offices where someone(other than the geeks) at both offices has even seen a Linux desktop system. Two steak dinners if anyone (other than the geeks) at both offices is using a Linux as their primary desktop. Havent had to pay yet, doubt I will for you.

Someone in Finland probably can. ;)

Oh, and check out this article (http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2860180,00.html) about the guys at Largo, Florida.

Anyway. Let's agree to wait those 5 years, and then have the steak dinner. Make mine medium :D

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by mrBen


Oh, and check out this article (http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2860180,00.html) about the guys at Largo, Florida.

Anyway. Let's agree to wait those 5 years, and then have the steak dinner. Make mine medium :D

Agreed my fine friend. I have greatly enjoyed hearing your views and insights. I am really enjoying Linux and if I can ever get this one system to recognize ANY network card I put in it, I will be able to get my DNS up and running. Arrgggg, its making me crazy LOL.

[Krugelstadt]

I never had a problem with 3-coms, though the isa was a handfull, that's the only brand i ever bought. D-Link i heard was good in support as well, havent tried that yet. No-IP.com is a schweet place to toy with your DNS after its up.

[Trevoke]

I'm a n00b for Linux but I figured this deserves a bump.. at least I can read that every time I feel devastated and I log on to your forums :)

[mrBen]

Love your sig Trevoke :D

Oh, and Irenfrew - never had any problems with network cards, post your problem / distro on a new topic and I'll try to help.

[mrmoo2]

Every time I think about giving up I have a little breakthrough that keeps me going.

Then of course all the great support out there really helps as well.






___________________________
Keep in mind it's not the destination that counts,
it's the journey to get there. ----

[Penrich]

Originally posted by mrBen


Most people have _never_ done an Windows install. It's 'user friendly' because they have never had to do an install.

And as for the OS - BSOD is not very user friendly, neither are some of the setup problems you get.

It'll be interesting to see what impact cheap, pre-installed Linux boxes will make on people's perceptions.


Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Linux is the best ever newbie OS, I just don't think that Windows is a User Friendly as everyone makes out.

Given a blank computer and a Win XX disc or a GNU/Linux disc, most people will be able to install windows with no problem, get on the Inernet, send email, play 3d games, play and rip CDs, because the hardware support is there. With the Linux, you don't know what you've got till you try it. I know this isn't Linux's "fault", its because the hardware manufacturers yada yada yada, BUT it is something that "Linux" (i.e. the distro suppliers) will have to adress if Linux is going to be main stream.

PS even Dell sell pre-installed Linux boxes. You have to dig on their website to find them, its not just a check box item when you configure your PC. Now if it were, that would probably be a good think - people would see the price difference right there:

[ ] Windows XP Home (+$119)
[X] Red Hat 8.0 (+ $0)

[fancypiper]

Originally posted by Penrich
Given a blank computer and a Win XX disc or a GNU/Linux disc, most people will be able to install windows with no problem, get on the Inernet, send email, play 3d games, play and rip CDs, because the hardware support is there. With the Linux, you don't know what you've got till you try it. I know this isn't Linux's "fault", its because the hardware manufacturers yada yada yada, BUT it is something that "Linux" (i.e. the distro suppliers) will have to adress if Linux is going to be main stream.
ROTFLMSAO!

Not true in my experience! I have always had mucho difficulty installing Windows on any box that I have tried. Hardware support is not in the kernel and I have had mucho difficulty getting some hardware to work.

It would probably be easy if there were any documentation for Windows, but if there is, I can't find it.

Linux (with the exception of Mandrake) has been a breeze to install on all of my boxen. :D

[evdama]

fancypiper I must protest!
Given my blank computer and an my XP disk I can have a fully configured system ,surfing ,burning and printing well within 2 hours.
Straight from the box.

After 3 weeks Ive got Mandrake 8.2 just about installed.
It wont dial up and it wont print.I cant play my CDs because I cant find a soundcard driver.I dont want to even think about the other peripherals.
Luckily the machine is a "toy" for experimenting and Ive got a few spare hours each week to play.
If I had to do something in a hurry ,for real,then Im afraid linux would have gone out through the nearest window.
No doubt when Ive cracked these problems,the self satisfaction and confidence gained from doing so will have me singing Torvaulds praises from the command line, but until then ,I see things from the perspective of the computer user (not the enthusiast)
XP stomps all over linux.
Not nice-Im sorry.

[Penrich]

For *my* computer, Linux has been a pain :D

Redhat - monitor problems (probably problem with XF86Config, but I didn't try to sort it out)
Caldera - Wouldn't install (may have been bad burn on the disc)
SuSE - did a good job, but my first two vid cards do not have 3D drivers (on board, and a Radeon 7000 PCI. Now have geforce2)
Debian - on my third install - have to know that RealTek 8029 ethernet uses ne2k-pci driver etc... second install failed (error 100? not looked into that yet)


Some of these are no doubt my problem and/or fixable

And OK - for Win, you do need to have the driver disc for this, and the driver disc for that, reboot each time... I had forgotten about that :) I'm tired - my last Deb install failed at 1:30 am last night... Maybe I should have said, "given a Win XX disc and a bucket full of driver discs..."

However (to get back on thread) - I AM going to do this! I AM NOT going to quit! I have seen enough now to know that it IS worth it! DON"T QUIT!!!

[Penrich]

PS - having drivers in the kernel is all well and good, untill you try to switch something out! In replacing my radeon card (ati driver complied in the kernel) with a new nvidia geforce2 MX400, I couldn't log into X, even though XF86Configure was set up with the nv driver. The problem (I think, from /var/x.log) was that it was trying to install the ATI driver anyway. So I either needed (as I saw it) to recompile my kernel, or reinstall. Not quite as easy as installing a new driver and rebooting. Hence the need for Debian install # 2. Which failed...

Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the learning experience, and this is my hobby box. Maybe it would be easier on a new box designed from the ground up with linux-friendly components. But that is not what I have. (4 yr old Gateway PII 266 that used to Win98).

[fancypiper]

I am still wondering why the folks that think Windows is so easy and does their jobs easily for them are trying out Linux. Perhaps it isn't as satisfactory as they make out?

Windows install on my Duron box took almost 4 hours offline and then there were the updates and driver downloads (I can't afford the new stuff that has installation disks) until it was completely configured with countless reboots and I had to be physically present to click that "OK" button to continue.

Redhat 7.3 install on the same machine takes 28 minutes offline and a pretty good time online to get updates (unknown as I updated overnite while I was asleep) and one re-boot to do it. I cooked and ate supper at the table while doing the install off the CD.

The Linux install is much speedier and easier for me than Windows. Of course, when I built my boxen, I got Linux supported hardware and no winhardware, so maybe that's the difference.

[Penrich]

Originally posted by fancypiper
I am still wondering why the folks that think Windows is so easy and does their jobs easily for them are trying out Linux. Perhaps it isn't as satisfactory as they make out?

I said the *install* was easier for a non-technical person like me with an old box. I certainly don't remember saying it was "satisfactory" :D That is why I am here. And I think that you will see lots more people like me (and evdama, and lots of other newbies)(non-technical, non-computer scientist, trying to make windows hardware work with Linux) as more and more people start to realize there is an option. And I think that is a good thing! But this board is only going to get busier...

I am the future!!!

PS - my install take hours for linux, after i've finished answreing the questions. Is it just that my CD-Rom is slower than everybody elses???

[fancypiper]

It has been much busier since I joined. I was member number 573 on the origional linuxnewbie.org before internet.com and there are now 39,431 members.

I wonder how many are still active with Linux?

[Penrich]

Yes, I do take time to read the questions, and I have R several FM's. Am I am a newbie. But even after I have gone through that, and actually start installing the kernel and modules and the packages from the CD, it still takes way more than 17 minutes!Maybe just the kernel takes 17 min? (Of course, being a newbie, I no doubt install lots of extra stuff - gnome if I'm only going to use kde, all the games, that kind of thing.)

And please don't get me wrong, fancypiper. I am loving this stuff, and my wife is having to pull me away from the computer to say come to bed at 1:30 am. (I only get to start at 9 or 10 pm when the kids are in bed - plus reading now, when I should be working!). I seriously think that Red Hat, Mandrake, SUSE etc are doing a great job at making their distros user friendly, and are starting to pull in more people. Which brings me to my point. Linux is not just for geeks any more. It is being "dumbed down" for the masses (in a good way (?)). This board ("Wanna learn linux?") is not about how fast you can load distro X on your finely tuned machine. It seems to me to be moving away from computer scientists who need help with their school projects. It is becoming how Joe Schmoe can get his distro working on his factory-built machine with onboard this and that because he wants to give this new OS a try. Linux is no longer a "bleeding edge" super-geek club. (Just a leading edge, normal geek club?). (Just my opinion, anyway: I've been running Linux a month now. I am just a new incompotent user who thinks that every other newbie here is just like himself :) )

I know all this has been said a million times before here, so I am just rambling. You have been here a long time and helped countless people. I applaude you for that, sincerely.

[Penrich]

Hey - quit cheating! You edited your post while I was typing, but it doesn't say so on it!!!:D

[fancypiper]

I re-read your post and I had given a screwy answer as I had mis-read it, so I deleted the post. PS - my install take hours for linux, after i've finished answreing the questions. Is it just that my CD-Rom is slower than everybody elses???I just noticed you said it took hours (really?) after you finished answering the questions. You're not running an old i386 machine, are you?

I recently did a custom install with Redhat 7.3 on a Celeron 850 in 38 minutes (2.2 gig worth) initial install time.

[Penrich]

I have a PII 266. My "CD-ROM" is actually a DVD-ROM too, so my read times probably aren't great. (Can't remember the actual numbers).

[fancypiper]

I have a dvd-rom lying around that seemed flakey both in Windows and Linux, so I put in a cheap $17 cdrom that worked much better.

I dont have any video cds, so I have no use for it now. I keep putting hard drives in the slave cdrom position rather than another cd drive. Maybe I'll build another box so I can have room to try it again. Maybe someone will loan me a dvd to try and see if I really want/need that drive. I am more of an audio person myself. Video takes all of your time to enjoy it. I can accomplish more by listening with my ears while doing other things.

Video a few times a year is enough to satisfy me (unless it concerns uilleann piping content, of course).

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by fancypiper
I am still wondering why the folks that think Windows is so easy and does their jobs easily for them are trying out Linux. Perhaps it isn't as satisfactory as they make out?


Thats a fair question. The answer is simple. I like to learn Linux because it is relevant to my work. And its fun to challenge myself with new things to learn. I have an inquiring mind.

Many of us who like using Windows, and Lunix, and Unix, etc. dont have an ox to gore, or an axe to grind (maybe use the axe on the ox?? :p ). I cheer for Linux. But I also know that far more real world 24x7 business critical work is done with Windows than with Linux (including most of mine) and Windows is well suited for that role.

I am happy there is this forum and others like it. I hope to get a lot out of them. The community of users is one of the most appealing aspects of being involved with Linux. But it does get a bit tiring running into all the evangelizing and Windows negativity. IMHO

[fancypiper]

But I also know that far more real world 24x7 business critical work is done with Windows than with Linux (including most of mine) and Windows is well suited for that role. Well suited? :rolleyes: Critical work done on such an insecure operating system? Those machines aren't connected to a network, especially the internet, I hope. Either that or the users must be well educated on how to avoid viruses and be told to never use the back button on IE.

It would make more sense to have critical work done securely

I know I will do no e-commerce with a site running Microsoft software.

Target stores are the only ones that I know of that attemped to migrate to Linux and went back to Windows. Amazon.com is in the process of migrating now, but I will not trade with them until they switch over.

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by fancypiper
Well suited? :rolleyes: Critical work done on such an insecure operating system? Those machines aren't connected to a network, especially the internet, I hope. Either that or the users must be well educated on how to avoid viruses and be told to never use the back button on IE.

It would make more sense to have critical work done securely

I know I will do no e-commerce with a site running Microsoft software.

Target stores are the only ones that I know of that attemped to migrate to Linux and went back to Windows. Amazon.com is in the process of migrating now, but I will not trade with them until they switch over.

I can appreciate your opinion. Just be aware that its not the correct or even prevailing one, despite comments to the contrary. We could get into mundane things such as units sold etc, but thats not the point. I personally have been a consultant to companies on major eBiz projects, a senior network designer and analyst, and deployed the networks and managed the engineering teams for well over 200K Sf of data center space. This supported many well known clients and hundreds of lesser known clients. Windows servers were in the mix for a majority of them. Linux and ?nix were also in many of them. And believe it or not, with the proper planning, care and feeding, virtually all of the customers operated at high transaction volumes, with high levels of security, and with very high availability. Well planned and executed infrastructure can run with almost any server OS, even Linux :eek: hehe

[lnx_nu_b]

This is my first post, and I felt that I should reply to this particular post. Having tried various different versions of Mandrake Linux's. 7.2, 8.1 and currenlty running 9.0, it is an up hill battle. I have had many attempts at trying to run linux, and all times giving up due to lack of driver support, functionality or just lack of guidance. I am only 18, and have always been on a windows platform. I am playing with Linux because it is something new and different. I have heard of so many possibilities, that if I could hit on half of them, it would be great. I signed up here, in hopes of finding answers to my very "newbie" questions. It only took me about 2 weeks and three different computers to try and get on line.

Initially when I tried linux 7.2 it did recognize my winmodem and ran great, none of these current systems did recognize the modem. I went out and bought a hardware modem but was still unsuccessful. I loaded 9.0 on a PII400 128mb ram, an AMD 450 64mb ram, and now currently running on a AMD T-bird 1.4ghz 512mb sdram. Bigger is better!

Linux is loaded and running, I really don't know what to do next. The computer is one that I built, and everything is working like I guess it should. I want to learn how to alter the "skins" of the desktop, but as I said before, honestly don't know where to begin to do anything. So if any of you have suggestions (i.e. books, how-to's, manuals, etc. etc) I would really appreciate it, I will not quit this time, I will master this OS.

[fancypiper]

The best links I have found for Linux are in my signature.

[whitepony]

eep this thread scared me so many problems makes me feel lke i wanna give up every one seems to make out its super duper hard :( i got a tonnes of problems my self just keep getin more n more and they seem to take ages to fix most are hardware related or drivers for hardware n stuff might be me or maybe the milk i just had sinking to bottem of my stmuck but this startin to make me give up a bit but nothink can stop be permantly il always be back for more :)

[sasKuatch]

gee, lnx_nu_b, the only thing I can suggest is to pick things and try them. Pick a program you are curious about, and install it. Repeat as necessary. The experiences you obtain that way should be a great (though sometimes frustrating) learning tool. That's how I did it...


Now, I don't know about business critical stuff, but when I need to do something last-minute for school, I do it in linux (well, I do it in linux either way :D). I've had way too much trouble with windows to trust it ever again.


Problems: most linux problems (how to get stuff to work, etc) are actually REALLY simple. For example, I spent the past 4 years trying to get online with linux (on and off, with bad hardware and good). I was totally happy with doing my 3D modelling, digital art, music, homework in linux. I pretended I needed windows to interfact with the dumb people ;). Recently, I started to work on my linmodem with no luck. I asked on in the software forum, and within 2 days, I was online with linux for the first time in my life. Sometimes, an extra brain really helps.

[lnx_nu_b]

Yes, it is not like if I mess it up, I don't know how to put it back on again. I will check out the links around here, and see what I can read up on. Thanks for your guys help.

[CrashTestDummy9]

Originally posted by whitepony
eep this thread scared me so many problems makes me feel lke i wanna give up every one seems to make out its super duper hard :( i got a tonnes of problems my self just keep getin more n more and they seem to take ages to fix most are hardware related or drivers for hardware n stuff might be me or maybe the milk i just had sinking to bottem of my stmuck but this startin to make me give up a bit but nothink can stop be permantly il always be back for more :) A lot of the problems you read about on here are because there are a lot of tinkerers on here and they change distros like some of us change our underwear . Also there are new people getting into Linux everyday and God only knows what kind of clunker they want to "try" Linux on . Try it on a good modern computer , thats not an "integrated lovechild" of Bill Gates , and you will find much happiness in the Wonderful World of Linux .

[scruff]

That's a good point CrashTestDummy. I got pretty lucky with my install, as it recognized all of my hardware. I had a bit of trouble with the winmodem in the beginning, but now that I know how it works, it only takes 2 seconds on a fresh install. Right now I am using a new HP straight from the store. It is one of the better HP machines so it serves all my needs at the moment. Soon though, I will be putting an Audigy soundcard in it and I can tell it will take a bit of work in Linux, but I have seen plenty of answers right here to get me through it.

If it weren't for this site, probably a great many people would quit early on. linuxnewbie.org is tha sh*t!!!

[hkctr]

I've been trolling around this and other forums since my Linux oddessy began a month ago. This is my first input to any of them. My observations, rants and comments:

The number of wizards who can get their linux boxes singing and dancing but can't seem to get MS Windows working never ceases to astound and completely baffle me. If a friend has a problem with Windows, the last thing I would suggest to him/her is to try linux. An enemy? "Go for it! I hear Debian is good."

The world is a better place because the people who write linux manuals and how-to's don't write sex manuals and how-to's. If they did, most of population would be sticking things in places they don't belong. Many of the people who spout "RTFM" should realize that most of us would love to RTFM if only one existed. Many of the how-to's, including all the NHF's on this board require a certain level of linux proficiency to be useful. In linux terms, a dependency check for documention would be extremely useful as well as links to required libraries.

In linux, it takes the same amount of time (extremely long in my case) to configure something simple and routine as it does to configure something one-off and complex. This is both good and bad.

Linux is server software trying to do the desktop dance. If you want to make money, create, service and support server software. If you want to be loved, give me linux on my desktop so I can get rid of Windows. Even MS has figured this out and created versions for each environment. Lycoris and Lindows are on to something. I don't need server software on my desktop.

Linux is no more safe and secure than Windows. The only reason that hackers haven't found the holes is that they are not trying. There is a bigger fish to catch and it's name is Bill. If, and when linux achieves critical mass, you can bet that even the most secure linux barriers will fall. The worms that are infiltrating the seams at the moment are just the beginning. If anyone tells you different, tell them to RTFHB (history books). Those who deem themselves impenetrable and think they are always one step ahead of their pursuers die the harshest of deaths.

Meanwhile, my affair with linux is continuing. Fortunately I have a removable HD system and 4 extra HD's laying around. I've tried Lindows, Lycoris, Debian (or Damian as I call it, it is the work of the devil, with apt-get zealots trying to drive the Woody stake into it's heart), Gentoos, UL, Mandrake 9.0, RH8 and am looking forward to SuSE 8.1. They all have their good points (even Debian, i think), but none is the solution for me at the moment. Kudos go to RH8 for a great looking distro, Mandrake 9.0 for being complete, but incredibly ugly to look at (do something about those fonts!) and Lycoris for understanding that the 5% of PC users that use linux will want to/have to communicate with the over 80% that use windows. Don't get me started about Samba, the process should be seamless and you shouldn't have to be a network engineer to configure it.

For a noob looking to set up a destop PC, I highly recommend the United Linux distro. It comes with most hardware installed, but disabled. It comes with no office software, desktop utilities or other goodies to make your life easy. If you can get your hardware working, office & entertainment software installed, server software uninstalled and setup your menus, you will have learned alot and have a usable desktop PC.

Thanks for listening to my $0.02. I feel alot better, but not good enough to give Debian another shot!

[sasKuatch]

The security topic is very interesting, hkctr , but here is my view on it:

If a program won't run even if you try your darndest to get it working, how the heck can a worm or virus run?

And I don't understand where you guys are commin' from. Linux is not server software. I consider myself a power user, and I never, not once, see a lack of software (maybe games, but who needs those?). The first month I used linux, nothin worked, but I was in Gimp, paintin away :D You guys are too demanding. All you need to do everyday work is sound and video. That's why you dualboot, so that you can use linux, and escape to windows if you feel overwhelmed.

Maybe computers where different when I started learning linux. Any old SB compatible soundcard was top of the line, any videocard that could do 1024 X 768 at 16bit color was top of the line. Simple. If you got that working, you were home free.

I say you guys are spoiled. DVDs, heck I can't even name all the 'hip' stuff nowadays.:rolleyes: Get the basics working, and go from there.

Oh, and by all means, experiment with different distros, that's what they're there for.

[Rkymtnmom]

I too am very new to the Linux world, and this forum.
After using Windows for way too long, I have been trying to get everything on my system working. I have come so close to going back to Windows in the last couple weeks that any little bit of headway I make is all that keeps from giving up. The more I learn about Linux and the more support I find for new users, the less I think of Windows as an option.
When I decided I had enough of Windows ME I installed Red Hat 7.3 and had everything working except my printer (Apollo 2500) and my cd burner. Once I learned some of the basics, I had my burner confgured and even had a few programs installed off the net.
So I upgraded to version 8. It didn't seem to improve anything with the printer though. So yesterday I did a fresh install and everything was detected and I thought that I would finally be able to print.....but no such luck. I can't even get it to print a test page. :(
And since I wiped out everything on the hard drive for a fresh install, now I am even having problems being able to install my gnutella program. It says there are files missing. It worked fine on the 7.3, but now I can't even get it to install on the 8.0. What's up with that?
When I go into Hardware Browser, it shows my printer but it says the driver is unknown and device shows n/a.
In system devices it shows my USB UHCI Root Hub as driver unknown and device is n/a. There is a VT82C686(Apollo Super South) showing driver as parport_pc and device as n/a.
I take it that the usb isn't configured properly for my printer, but as far as the printtool shows it is.

My system:
Red Hat Linux 8.0 full install
Via 900a processor
Onboard video (shared memory)
Onboard audio
256 MB memory
40 Gb 7200 rpm Hard drive
Techmedia 15" monitor (old)
Motorola 4100 Surfboard modem
32x12x48 Buslink CD-RW (w/buffer underrun protection)
1.44 Floppy drive
Multimedia Hub Keyboard (USB)
RTL-8135/8139c network card
Apollo p-2500 printer (USB)
Scrolling mouse

Once I get this printer problem figured out, I have a scanner that I would like to try to use. LOL
Guess I am hooked on Linux now. And it is getting harder and harder to give up on it.
Thanks for the forum and the many words of wisdom, it has helped to give me hope that I can actually get this system running the way I want it.

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by sasKuatch


The first month I used linux, nothin worked, but I was in Gimp, paintin away :D You guys are too demanding. All you need to do everyday work is sound and video. That's why you dualboot, so that you can use linux, and escape to windows if you feel overwhelmed.



Are you married?

Do you have a girlfriend?

Have kids?

[hkctr]

Thanks for your comments sasKuatch, but I beg to differ with you on several points.

"If a program won't run even if you try your darndest to get it working, how the heck can a worm or virus run?" If you have an OS and are connected to a network, you are vulnerable. Whether you have mastered the OS or not is not relevant.

"Linux is not server software." Ouch!! I'm sure there are others better qualified than myself to rebut this one. i'm also sure the folks at RedHat and Turbolinux would beg to differ also.

"You guys are too demanding....I say you guys are spoiled....That's why you dualboot, so that you can use linux, and escape to windows if you feel overwhelmed." You're right, I am demanding and I am spoiled, but not by linux. It was the software running on another OS that spoiled me. Good software makes one feel empowered, not overwhelmed. Just think of all the artistic ability that went undiscovered and untapped until software like Gimp allowed it to explode. Good software can literally change people's lives and give people the ability to do things they never dreamed of. Perhaps you are one of these people.

Is linux a platform or tool that can help me become more productive, more creative and less reliant on one system to become so? It has definite possibliities. That is why I am here.

[Elijah]

Originally posted by hkctr
Thanks for your comments sasKuatch, but I beg to differ with you on several points.

"If a program won't run even if you try your darndest to get it working, how the heck can a worm or virus run?" If you have an OS and are connected to a network, you are vulnerable. Whether you have mastered the OS or not is not relevant.

"Linux is not server software." Ouch!! I'm sure there are others better qualified than myself to rebut this one. i'm also sure the folks at RedHat and Turbolinux would beg to differ also.

"You guys are too demanding....I say you guys are spoiled....That's why you dualboot, so that you can use linux, and escape to windows if you feel overwhelmed." You're right, I am demanding and I am spoiled, but not by linux. It was the software running on another OS that spoiled me. Good software makes one feel empowered, not overwhelmed. Just think of all the artistic ability that went undiscovered and untapped until software like Gimp allowed it to explode. Good software can literally change people's lives and give people the ability to do things they never dreamed of. Perhaps you are one of these people.

Is linux a platform or tool that can help me become more productive, more creative and less reliant on one system to become so? It has definite possibliities. That is why I am here.

Softwares from the user-friendly OS's out there have spoiled me as well. That is why I still have my winpartitions ( I just can't leave it yet without another alternative software in linux ), but sometimes it amazes me to see myself go for weeks without rebooting to windows.
I don't think I learned a bit in using windows and I would'nt recommend for IT students in using OS's that can spoil us. Ever since I've become addicted to Linux, I've learned much and ( to my surprise) I prefered the command line more often...

[Elijah]

Originally posted by sasKuatch



Problems: most linux problems (how to get stuff to work, etc) are actually REALLY simple. For example, I spent the past 4 years trying to get online with linux (on and off, with bad hardware and good). I was totally happy with doing my 3D modelling, digital art, music, homework in linux. I pretended I needed windows to interfact with the dumb people ;). Recently, I started to work on my linmodem with no luck. I asked on in the software forum, and within 2 days, I was online with linux for the first time in my life. Sometimes, an extra brain really helps.
hello there! just wanna know what 3d modelling tools you use? I'm quite new to modelling and am very much interested in it :)

[lrenfrew]

Originally posted by Elijah


Softwares from the user-friendly OS's out there have spoiled me as well. That is why I still have my winpartitions ( I just can't leave it yet without another alternative software in linux ), but sometimes it amazes me to see myself go for weeks without rebooting to windows.
I don't think I learned a bit in using windows and I would'nt recommend for IT students in using OS's that can spoil us. Ever since I've become addicted to Linux, I've learned much and ( to my surprise) I prefered the command line more often...

You guys crack me up! Not recommend that IT students learn windows because it would spoil them. What a riot. People who work in IT and Operations lean how to support the needs of their business users and the companies and departments they need to interact with. Those of you who are "power user" and academics can afford the luxury of your attitiude about Windows. Those of us who are charged with getting real work done are glad to use windows, linux, unix and bubble gum if they will make our life less hectic and get the job done.

[fancypiper]

For someone that can do the best IT work, chose someone that runs Linux at home and has to support Windows at work.

Now, those IT professionals know their stuff.

100% Microsoft trained IT personnel just don't have the security mindset or the knowledge to manage Microsoft software effectively.

[CrashTestDummy9]

Originally posted by lrenfrew


You guys crack me up! Not recommend that IT students learn windows because it would spoil them. What a riot. People who work in IT and Operations lean how to support the needs of their business users and the companies and departments they need to interact with. Those of you who are "power user" and academics can afford the luxury of your attitiude about Windows. Those of us who are charged with getting real work done are glad to use windows, linux, unix and bubble gum if they will make our life less hectic and get the job done. I think Elijah made a good point . If you are an IT student and want to learn you should be using a Unix like OS . Linux is a great place to start for obvious reasons(its free). It takes a while to learn Linux and it takes even longer to learn if you are brainwashed by Windows software . Besides , how long can it possibly take to "learn" Windows LOL ?

[windoze killa]

Originally posted by CrashTestDummy9
Besides , how long can it possibly take to "learn" Windows LOL ?

A bloody long time. They keep changing it every 12 months. What will be coming next year, Windows ABC (sorry, thats the Sesame St version)?

[CrashTestDummy9]

Originally posted by windoze killa


A bloody long time. They keep changing it every 12 months. What will be coming next year, Windows ABC (sorry, thats the Sesame St version)? Yeah but they have those excellent tutorials after a new upgrade that show you how to use the mouse and where the Start button is .

[sasKuatch]

3D modeling software:

Blender (just became opensource this weekend www.blender.org)
POV-Ray (renderer)
Maya (?)

Music:
xmms (duh)
soundtracker
various xmms plugins

Video Editing:
Broadcast2000 (no longer available, if you want a copy, ask me)

Quake1,2,3 Editors:
Quest (no luck)
GtkRadiant (qeradiant.com)

Games:
Unreal
Unreal Tournament
Unreal Tournament 2003
Quake1,2,3
RtCW
StarCraft
Warcraft2
SoF2
Half-Life
Stronghold
Commandos
GNUChess (:D)
more...

THE ONLY SINGLE thing I don't have is UnrealEd. For everything else there are substitutes.

You have to think about it like this: You can't get a linux version of Photoshop, you get Gimp; you can't get a linux version of winamp, you get xmms; you can't get Acrobat reader, you use ghostview.

That's a common mistake people make when saying that linux has no software, because they expect linux VERSIONS of their favorite software, when they should be looking for linux CLONES of their favorite software (which are free).

About HAVING to learn windows because everybody uses it: Catch-22 anyone?

Oh, and hkctr, having loads of power dumped on you before being weened from windows is enough to scare many. Power = responsibility. The reason windows is easy is because you have no choice or power.

[Elijah]

yippee blender is opensource! I've also tried moonlight3d atelier but can't really make sense of anything (still a newbie at modelling) I've found some tutorials but most are in french.
Maya I guess have a linux version but it's quite expensive.
I'll just stick with blender3d then.

I've learned my first OS (windowsME) in just a few hours and with not much experience in computing last year. What did I learn? point - and - click.
Linux took me months to handle the basics and I'm still learning stuff here, this is great especially now our subject this term is all about operating systems.

[Nu-Bee]

Originally posted by Allen15


In a word, no. But I know that they can be made to be (that)stable?

I have a friend who is absolutely -PARANOID- about installing things in his W98 box.

It's a shame to see someone like that.

Me?...I'm of the genre that I'll break it as much as I can...just to figure out how to fix it. :)

I learned that in my DOS 3.2 days when I got mad and played on my KB like a loony on crack. When nothing blew up....my paranoia flew out the window. BTW, this was long before Windoze was even heard of... :)

I've been playing with Linux about a year now. I've went from Mandrake 7.0 - 7.2 - 8.2 - and now 9.0 which I love so far. The install went great and I've only had to re-install it once so far in the week I've had it. (my fault for playing with Partition Magic 7.0)

The biggest hurdle for me so far has been grasping the idea of -ONE- disk...no matter how many you might really have. I keep (kept) asking myself 'Now, which drive is that on?'.

It's getting easier...but at a snails pace.

I know that one day it will be like a -FLASH- and 'come to me'.

I have had that happen too many times in the past; it's called 'an epiphany'. :)

[nfuhr]

Its funny... I am very fluent in Microsoft OS's (from 3.1 on up) and delved into Macs a few years ago (with System Software 7.5.3) but never made the jump into Linux until now. It was more of a necessity to do so but I am glad that I have.

I have (on one machine and not all at once) installed FreeBSD 4.6 (nice installer... lacking driver support for even this old box)... then Slackware 8.1 (finally able to get a working X environment... will probably jump back to Slack when I get more Linux/Unix savvy) and now RedHat 8.0 (I suggest any/every newbie/pro try this one since it was the most painless install of the bunch and is fairly bulletproof).

From what I have found of Linux (RedHat 8.0 running KDE in this case) is that I get to keep all of the things that I have become used to in Windows AND MacOS (User interface) and eliminate a lot of the things that I dont need (like frequent crashes and blue screens). Plug N' Pray exists as well as numerous apps that accomodate for and replace those branded ties to coporate conglomorates that you are currently selling your souls to. Hardware support will come as the vendors start noticing the increasing trend to alternative OSes continue. I am a Linux user now and add it to the current list of OSes in my arsenal.

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by nfuhr

From what I have found of Linux (RedHat 8.0 running KDE in this case) is that I get to keep all of the things that I have become used to in Windows AND MacOS (User interface) and eliminate a lot of the things that I dont need (like frequent crashes and blue screens). Plug N' Pray exists as well as numerous apps that accomodate for and replace those branded ties to coporate conglomorates that you are currently selling your souls to. Hardware support will come as the vendors start noticing the increasing trend to alternative OSes continue. I am a Linux user now and add it to the current list of OSes in my arsenal.

Brilliant:) you got it.

[Tone39]

Hi Each
I'm completley new to linux and have been trying to get linux running for weeks, I have now suceeded, it seems that the hard disk on my windows system was the prob don't know exactly what the problem is, something to do with the way it is formatted, paid £20 for a second hand drive fitted it as a spare with no partition , linux went on no problem at all
I hope this helps somebody
Tone39

[stuffit]

lol! at box comment.

I work with a group that recycles redundant computers, puts linux on them so people can get access to IT who normally can't. We couldn't do it any other way, and whilst i know more than i did a year ago, in terms of setting up networks on ancient machines, getting X to work, there's always another problem - like the one i'm having now with a laptop i've got. But i know its not actually a problem as once i figure it out, then ITS SORTED! and if anyone else has a similar problem then i can help them out. Like a some linux users im not very techie, but because i love the free software/open source philosophy, i'm willing to persevere. Hail to the penguin!

[chitown]

OK it's like this. I am in a support role at my job. I support everything from printers, to OS' to Hardware, to PDA's...etc...
We go through so many upgrades a year with using MS products that I feel like I should be working for the post office (just want to bring a uzi to work) I mean we finally go from 98se to 2k & then there's talk of upgrades to XP already. And that doesn't include the security patches that come out every other day. IE has hole, so does 2k, here's SP3 and you need this patch. Then with all the other programs also it's never ending. And then the virus that are out there to mess with the MS users...jeez.......
All I know is I'm starting to play around with Linux. I've been pushed a couple of times over the years but never made the leap.
I've been a user for about 1 1/2 - 2 months and have been clean of MS (at home that is) since. It feels good to have a solid system even if I don't know it all inside & out yet......that'll come. It take some patience, I mean I have my problems with Linux too but I just like the idea now....

Until the next time..........

[windoze killa]

Now you just have to try and convince your bosses it is the way to go.

[Tjoh311]

I bought my first computer about a year and a half ago. It was a cheesy Gateway rig, with windows me installed on it. Since I had always used my mom's Macintosh, Windows was completely foreign to me. nothing Made sense at all as far as file system or simply executing programs without having a shortcut on the desktop. The point is, I made the transition played with VB software, learned alot of DOS commands HTML commands and started actually being productive. I was happy until I started saying "gosh, I wish this thing didn't crash so much" or "gosh, I wish I could truely personalize my system". when I use linux eventhough the learning process is the kicker, I feel like it is honestly "my creation" and not Bill Gates';)

[sasKuatch]

You can tell linux is customizable when you find yourself backing up config files for your windows manager:)

[seanmiller]

I'm struggling a bit too, I have to admit, but am not the sort to give up. If something goes wrong then there has to be a reason, and once you find that reason not only is everything working but in working through the problem you have learnt something new.

I would say that it is possible to be a Windows user and know absolutely nothing about the architecture or the way that the applications work. I do not believe this to be the case with Linux which is good from a point of view of personal development but is likely to remain one of the reasons why Micro$oft operating systems are likely to remain the single most used desktop for many years to come.

There's a certain satisfaction in getting something working in Linux, I find, that you don't get clicking the "Next" buttons on Windows! :-)

Sean

[nfuhr]

I dont know how much longer Micro$oft will have a strangle-hold on the desktop community... OS X 10.2 is a very clean interface and I have already used some of my minimal Linux knowledge on the Darwin side of things... just today I was faced with a "Force-Quit" that would not cooperate... alas... opening up a Terminal window and "kill"ing the app did the trick in seconds flat. I see Darwin/OS X being a VERY STRONG contender in the very near future once they can work out some of the interface issues and port it for i386 etc... it is a good alternative and based on OpenBSD (via Darwin... funny how Mac figured this out) and hopefully will be available to the public. Unfortunately, being a graphic designer and desktop publisher as well as an avid gamer... I dont see an immediate end to my dependencies on Mac OS and Windows anytime soon... but I am seeing major progress in the works from the Linux/Unix community that makes me hopeful that the reign of Microsatan will not be indefinate.

==========
GRUB ate my Win XP... and I didnt care
Darwin may be the Evolution we are looking for...
Hail the mighty Penguin!

[Nu-Bee]

Originally posted by seanmiller

There's a certain satisfaction in getting something working in Linux, I find, that you don't get clicking the "Next" buttons on Windows! :-)

Amen!,

I just installed xawtv for my All-In-Wonder 128 Pro card and it almost felt like an orgasm when I actually had TV in Linux now.

Now, if I could only figure out how to get scantv to work... :)

[irlandes]

Originally posted by lrenfrew

The "dumb masses" are also known as "the market". No one forces the market to do anything. When they pick a product they do it because its best for them (collectively). So one can certainly say that the market has made Windows the best desktop OS. No amount of hand wringing is going to change that. The market listens neither to me or you.

If Microsoft had not been convicted of illegal monopolistic practices, this argument would be relevant.

[arktype]

i just bought a gateway performance 500 from a friend....has a 20 gig hd, cd/dvd drive, sound and pretty decent video. i increased the ram to 256 megs. redhat 8.0 detected everything in the box and runs smoothly.
hope to give M$ the boot (i.e. sayanora) soon.:cool:

[arktype]

i am running redhat 8.0 on a used (bought from a friend) gateway performance 500. rh detected everything and is running smoothly.
hope one day to give M$ the boot (i.e. the leather boot....and say adios).:cool: :cool: :cool:

[zipp51]

I'm very new at Linux.I bought Redhat 8 and Mandrake 9.I have messed up some installs.This is what I am trying to do.I have an Abit KA7 mobo,Rage Fury vid card,Fortissimo sound,Diamond 2751 modem,creative 8x4x32 cdrw,cannon s750 usb printer,and HP 4300c usb scanner.The scanner and modem do not work.I think the drivers for the scanner are being worked on,but the modem is not supported.I have winxp set up on a 10gig hd and right now Redhat set up on a primary master 20gig drive.With instructions from the guy I bought the disto from,I am going to install Mandrake on the remaining free space,and I will be able to boot all three systems with lilo.I am sometimes confused by how you do things like load new drivers for hardware.Hopfully I can get a modem that will work so I can use the internet with Linux.Anyone have a suggestion for a modem brand and model that is good with Linux?

[mrBen]

Any external modem, even the cheap stuff, will usually work, although your best going for serial rather than USB if you can get one.

[lnx_nu_b]

Originally posted by mrBen
Any external modem, even the cheap stuff, will usually work, although your best going for serial rather than USB if you can get one.

I thought I would be able to get my Zoom 2990 Ext. USB Modem working in Mandrake 9.0, but I couldn't get my USB working. Shoot for a 3com Hardware modem. Put it on Com5.

[sasKuatch]

Heck, if you're strapped for cash, even a Lucent chipset winmodem (linmodem, hehehe) will work well.

Go to www.linmodems.org and see what definitely works, then shop accordingly.

If you can't get it working, return it within the return time, telling them that it won't work, and get a regular modem.

[evdama]

Hayes V92 pci internal works just fine with mandrake 8.2.
Mandrakes online hardware list will tell you if the one you want is supported and then use linmodems to get a driver.Match your distro's build no against the available files for a match.
Get an "rpm" driver -you just click a few buttons and it does all the work for you.
The hurdle I found was configuring the dial up connection and that was only because I just cannot bring myself to Read The (excellent ,built-in)Fing Manuals!;)

[bluekiwi]

What I have to do in order to have a positive, rewarding Linux experience is wait for a distro that has all the drivers required for my hardware.

Sorry, this is a bit of long post from me. I want to share something and I need help at the same time.

Having someone in the know and who has been through all the hell that can happen really does help. I find this site a reasonably good substitute for that someone.

I downloaded Mandrake Linux 8.1 when it came out. At the part where X windows is put to the test, I got a black screen and my PC froze. Yes, I practiced oral abuse!!

Breakthrough one: Someone with a mindset that at the time I did not have pointed out to me the fault was most likely driver related, meaning that the distro did not contain a file needed to power my graphics chipset. His advice was to go to chip makers web site and see if there is a Linux driver. Hooray there was one. Argh! Mandrake Linux 8.1 did not contain it. How I fiured that out was that the guy who was with me educated me on the thinking behind production of the CD. He told me that the files were all there for a reason - I shouldn't forget that. Its a matter of tuning in with the thinking and the design.

Breakthrough two: Newer versions of Mandrake and SuSe are starting to be more helpful and include needed files.

What I have learned with Linux is that it DOES help to be computer literate, in possession of the Linux mindset, and familiar with the installation culture.

I haven't lost my confidence with Linux because I have access to computers on which it runs and I have been experimenting with it.

I am the type that doesn't cry when things go wrong and I must be quite strong mentally??

That said I am sure there are folks who experience a confidence shatter. My advice is to find a computer on which it is installed and runs smmothly and find someone that relates to you and can train you in a precision, tailored way on Linux .

Having the skills to interpret experiences, the skills to thinking properly does matter! This has proven to be so for me.

I haven't got Linux running on my Win 98 machine because I haven't got the skills to tell which distro contains graphics drivers for the Savage Pro chipset. I remade the Mandrake 8.1 distro CD1 with my required drivers but the CD would not boot. How do I make this distro boot? I favour either Mandrake or Suse Linux.

[sasKuatch]

I don't know, I just keep all my one, whole driver in a certain location, and back up to CD when that location has enough stuff it it.

Whenever I reinstall (rarely), I just pull out that CD and copy it over and install along with all my other backed up programs.

Until then, I just use a generic, failsafe driver, or command line, in your case.

[loopback48]

To all that have reached the end of your rope with Linux: hang in there! I'm am. A bit about myself before I continue. I'm a 54 year old with two years of PC experence ( I'm a late bloomer ) and about 9 months of linux experence. Yes, it is fustrating and yes, it is exciting. I've pulled what left of my hair trying to figure the most simplest of things. But I will not give up. Why? Because I'm learning. And while I won't put down Microsoft's products, I can't abide by their policies. Maybe it boils down to freedom. The freedom to decide for myself. And not have that taken away from me. Things will - I hope - become easier for the newbie. They have to be or else this fine OS will wither away. Many knowgeable folks have said so and it's true. How many people dig into their Windows software and do the things we have to to get things going? Not many. Just as I'm about to chuck it all out, I look at a Windows OS and decide to stick with it for just a bit longer. Still much to learn. But not much hair left. I'll stick around to see the day when I can down load a program and not have to wonder how to expand it or how to get an icon on the desktop or where the hell it's gone to. One of these days it'll happen. And in the not to distant future. I just know it. In the mean time, I'll just keep plugging away; digging and probing and screaming and having a hell of a good old time. I'll be writing and asking for some tips about things most know about. Or where to go for information. Or...well you get the picture. Give up? Like hell I will! One step I took that did help quite a bit. And that was to plunge head first into Linux. By that I mean no dual boot. I know most can't do that but that's what got me fired up. Keep the faith.

[buttercrunch]

afterall linux OS is still young although its grandfather 'UNIX' is sooo old....
yet it has the ability to compete with windows thats already matured.
in not too distant future it will be a very user friendly OS and one thing i like most... is the control it gives me as a user.


just a thought ;)

[Crypt]

I started with mandrake 7.0 as i was sick of the blue screen of death in windows. After playing with it for a bit i got frustrated and went back to windows. after a sever windows crash i got mandrake 8.2 up and running and then had it dual booted with XP pro. again got frustrated with linux and the time i had to spend learning it, so i went back to windows. Recently i though i would give Linux one last shot. Got Mandrake 9.0 and have since then really had no use for windows whatsoever, I am finding mandrake to be a much stronger system then i thought before and am getting the games i love to play working under linux. I will not be going back to windows at all, and the only reason it is on there is for my wife so she can play some of her games.

Thanks to everyone that has offered support.

[Vlad902]

Yeah. I started out with Slackware 8.1 not to long ago. After several boot up errors I reinstalled and vooila! all gone. So now I am customizing flux and Slackware! And I gotta say... its awesome!:)

[sasKuatch]

Thanks guys, the encouragement really is much more convincing comming straight from the "Been there, done that" people.

Keep it up.:cool:

[TankPunk]

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I'm recently getting back into linux and just recently installed mandrake 9.0. Well anyway it seemed as though a lot of people on the linux irc channels were not very newbie-friendly and some what discouraged me. Even though I was discouraged I will not let them stop me from learning and it is good to hear from some friendly linux users. Thanks again. :)

[sasKuatch]

Exactly what channels were those?

[Crypt]

try on the openprojects.net either #mandrake or #linux-mandrake both of those rooms were a great help to me and never treated me badly for any of the stuff i asked.

[hubaloo]

I've just started using linux (mandrake 9) and I think I like it. It makes sense, it's configurable, it's been stable (even though some of the apps haven't), easy to install, and looks great. I was totally psyched up until about 2 hours ago.

I tried to install GAIM from rpm, and got several messages about missing stuff. So I tried to install the missing stuff, and got more error messages about other missing stuff. So i tried to install from the tarball (tarball? - i just knew i definitely wouldn't get this one to work). This gave me some error message about not having a compiler or something.

Then I tried to print from my HP Inkjet 920, and realized that the drivers are not installed, even though it sees some sort of USB printer in HardDrake. Now i've downloaded the drivers tarball but i have no clue what to do next, and i fear that if i attempt it, i'll spend 3 hours before deciding i have failed and wasted all that time and effort.

This site seems to be helpful to everyone except ME. The NHF pages are vague and unhelpful, and generally do not pertain to my unique(?) problems . Right now, I need some step-by-step instructions specifically for installing GAIM on Mandrake.... specifically for installing my printer drivers. If such help is here, I can't find it. And I only need to learn something once. I learn quickly, and if I could just get some type of installation to succeed, I'm sure I could easily figure out future ones.

I work in tech support and I know Windows has problems, and you need to spend time learning to use your programs, reinstalling drivers from the device manager, etc. But I feel that all I should have to be able to do is double-click "setup.exe" and keep clicking "I agree" "next, next" "okay" until the software app or printer driver is installed. If I run into errors during the install that way, at least i know the problem is not with me (because I know i can double-click the setup icon correctly). That's one of the points of having a GUI. Click click click. No console. No untar, no hunting for lib files (or whatever). Everything else about Linux is fine, and I don't mind learning... but it should be easier to install software.
I got so excited after the installation went smoothly. I thought, hey, as long as the software apps are high quality and not cheesy knockoffs, I can drop XP in no time. But my attitude has soured and i really....i dunno... ARRRGGHHH!!!!

:confused:

[fancypiper]

Newbies would probably have a more enjoyable experience if they chose the stable version of a distribution rather than the alpha and beta versions but they choose the stuff with more bugs while they have less knowledge, it seems.

Strange, isn't it? :rolleyes:

[hubaloo]

this version is supposed to be stable, as this is what they are selling, and they don't offer a download for any "unstable" builds as some other distros do. And i didn't see the world "alpha" or "beta" anywhere.

I dont think i'm having a stability problem.
I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong.
I'm just ticked that I am having so much difficulty finding out how to do it right.
:rolleyes:

[TankPunk]

I was on the undernet servers on irc and the channel was #linux. I myself would advise newbies to avoid this channel as they seem very uptight and not very friendly.....but that's just my opinion. :confused:

[mrBen]

Originally posted by hubaloo
I've just started using linux (mandrake 9) and I think I like it. It makes sense, it's configurable, it's been stable (even though some of the apps haven't), easy to install, and looks great. I was totally psyched up until about 2 hours ago.

I tried to install GAIM from rpm, and got several messages about missing stuff. So I tried to install the missing stuff, and got more error messages about other missing stuff. So i tried to install from the tarball (tarball? - i just knew i definitely wouldn't get this one to work). This gave me some error message about not having a compiler or something.

Then I tried to print from my HP Inkjet 920, and realized that the drivers are not installed, even though it sees some sort of USB printer in HardDrake. Now i've downloaded the drivers tarball but i have no clue what to do next, and i fear that if i attempt it, i'll spend 3 hours before deciding i have failed and wasted all that time and effort.

This site seems to be helpful to everyone except ME. The NHF pages are vague and unhelpful, and generally do not pertain to my unique(?) problems . Right now, I need some step-by-step instructions specifically for installing GAIM on Mandrake.... specifically for installing my printer drivers. If such help is here, I can't find it. And I only need to learn something once. I learn quickly, and if I could just get some type of installation to succeed, I'm sure I could easily figure out future ones.

I work in tech support and I know Windows has problems, and you need to spend time learning to use your programs, reinstalling drivers from the device manager, etc. But I feel that all I should have to be able to do is double-click "setup.exe" and keep clicking "I agree" "next, next" "okay" until the software app or printer driver is installed. If I run into errors during the install that way, at least i know the problem is not with me (because I know i can double-click the setup icon correctly). That's one of the points of having a GUI. Click click click. No console. No untar, no hunting for lib files (or whatever). Everything else about Linux is fine, and I don't mind learning... but it should be easier to install software.
I got so excited after the installation went smoothly. I thought, hey, as long as the software apps are high quality and not cheesy knockoffs, I can drop XP in no time. But my attitude has soured and i really....i dunno... ARRRGGHHH!!!!

:confused:

OK - there's a load of questions in there, that probably needs a new thread. But just to offer a helping hint:

Mandrake (and a whole load of other distros) hides GCC (the GNU C Compiler) in the Development section of the install, where all the noobs and non-programmers don't both to look. But you will need it if you want to install tarballs. So get out your Mandrake disks, and install GCC.

The other thing with Mandy is that it sometimes doesn't install the headers and stuff needed for compiling - they'll be in the 'devel' RPMs. So if when configuring a tarball, it say that you don't have something you do have, or that it can't find the headers, have a look on the Mandy CDs for <package-name>-devel.mdk.rpm

HTH a little.

[stuffit]

Its frustrating at first, for sure, but remember its a FREE OS. I find it remarkable that linux exists, and in most cases, works! It can only get easier too - its a young OS in terms of useability, but its getting there.

anyway, check out this page (http://hpinkjet.sourceforge.net/install.php#download) once you've installed GCC , it has a thorough guide to getting you're printer to work.

best of luck

[hubaloo]

Thank you, mrben.
I was starting to think that, and reading your post makes me think that's exactly what i need to do.
So I will, and hopefully all will be solved.


thanks
:D

[ferg]

A year and half ago I did not know much about Linux.
Now, I still do not know much but I am enjoying and learning.
I just installed RedHat 8 and like it much. I still break out to the treminal and work at the command prompt. I have worked much with OpenNa Linux which is now up to Beta4. Really rock solid.
I have even compiled kernels. (can you imagine?)

For those having second thoughts about Linux, do not give up. You can age me but I have done DOS, CMP MPM, DrDOS. Windows 3.1 through to NT4 and 2000 Server and Linux is a good way to go. My children's computer was reloaded with RedHat 8.0 and they are happy with it. My son runs the Apache server locally and is learning JavaScript, PHP, etc.


Hang in there. This is an investment that will pay off well. Don't give up. Fight it. You will eventually enjoy it.

[sasKuatch]

One more thing, hubaloo, post individual questions, provide as much info about your setup as possible in the first post (to save time with that later), and ask clearly. I find it hard to believe that you won't get any help if you follow those steps.

Hang in there.

[Tkon]

I'm about to quit, at least as far as Linux on my notebook is concerned. If you feel like you can help, please go here (http://linuxnewbie.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=401276#post401276)
for the details. It's still got a place on my desktop, that is until I reach an unsolvable problem there too.:(

I finally solved the problem - it only took a week of vacation time, but I can now access the cdrom on my notebook. Guess I won't quit quite yet...

[sasKuatch]

Hang in there.

Take a break if you need to. Does wonders.

[Chs]

I am not a complete newbie, but i dont know very much... Well, if linux is that great that all says, wheres the 3D games?

[bammbamm808]

Originally posted by Chs
I am not a complete newbie, but i dont know very much... Well, if linux is that great that all says, wheres the 3D games?

Native:
Quake
Quake II
Quake III
RTCW
UT
UT2K3
Doom3 (yes it will be native)

Via Wine/Winex:
Halflife/TFC/CS/DoD, etc.

Not too bad, IMO.

[sasKuatch]

Yeah, pretty much most good FPS's are in linux too. Linux actually has more games than the Mac:D

[bammbamm808]

I don't know if it's true, but I've heard, and suspected myself that they use linux or unix in their development process. Evidence I see for this:

The Quake console uses linux conventions, pretty much. (I didn't know this until I started using linux about a year ago)

They only use OpenGL, and shun D3D

There are linux binaries available for every one of their games.

Their game engines are freaking great. They run fast and their netcode seems to be on a level of it's own.

Apologies if their use of *nix is a confirmed fact/old news. I really don't read their interviews, just enjoy their products.

Waiting for DoomIII......

[Crypt]

i also have Unreal now working in Linux. Waiting to see Unreal 2 and Doom 3

[sasKuatch]

I think it's really stupid for developers to use D3D. It does the same thing as OpenGL, and if they want to port to different systems, they need to used OpenGL anyway. As far as I know, OpenGL runs bettter than D3D on nVidia cards too.

[monoeye_x]

I suppose you could consider me the ultimate newbie! I installed Mandrake 9 on Sunday evening and am still trying to figure out where the "Shutdown" is on KDE!!! I think I prefer Gnome, but I haven't figured out how to get the selectable welcome screen to appear every time!

Oh, well. Linux blows W98 away so far, and I have barely started using it.

There sure are a lot of things to play with around here!

Hope to be here for a while!

[guitargeek]

Originally posted by monoeye_x
I suppose you could consider me the ultimate newbie! I installed Mandrake 9 on Sunday evening and am still trying to figure out where the "Shutdown" is on KDE!!! I think I prefer Gnome, but I haven't figured out how to get the selectable welcome screen to appear every time!

Oh, well. Linux blows W98 away so far, and I have barely started using it.

There sure are a lot of things to play with around here!

Hope to be here for a while!

It's "Log out" in Linux, but I don't know why you'd ever want to shut it down!:D

Really, ever since I've been running Mandrake 9.0, I just leave my computer on. I restarted once since then, to install my new printer on Windows as well. That was it.

Oh, and the welcome screen should appear when you log out of your session. But, chances are it's in auto-login, which is what my machine did by default. That's prolly why you don't see it every time:)

Hope that helps a little.

[bammbamm808]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
I think it's really stupid for developers to use D3D. It does the same thing as OpenGL, and if they want to port to different systems, they need to used OpenGL anyway. As far as I know, OpenGL runs bettter than D3D on nVidia cards too.

Find something that someone else has created and try to buy it outright at pass it off as their own. If not that, rip off the code and pass it off as their own. If not that, create an inferior alternative that is very proprietary and use their marketing muscle to coerce adoption of their solution. D3D has it's strong pionts, but always has been considerably slower than OpenGL. The real important point, however is that it only runs in Windows. Typical.

[JQuinton]

:p Yes....I was about ready to give up....I was having trouble making Win2000 and Linux Red Hat 7.0 coexist. I was tired of WinWorld and decided why make them coexist. Linux is the best OS...so I pulled a brand new 40GB Western Digital Hard Drive out of my drawer....replaced the Win Hard Drive in my computer and turned my computer into a 100% Linux Box! Boy do I love it! Free yourself of the unstability of Windows...by a 100% Linux user....you'll never go back I assure you!

[chronosifter]

I wish ya'll wouldve posted this three years ago when i gave up my first time, i believe it was redhat 6. I now blame my smoking habbit and the tremors when i walk into the school library with windows boxes on micro$oft. Dont be like me newbies (even though i still feel like a newb), hang on, keep on screaming, it'll all be over soon enough.

It's like music, all the knowlage will just hit you at one time and your there. at least of decent expirience.

[primal]

Originally posted by monoeye_x
I suppose you could consider me the ultimate newbie! I installed Mandrake 9 on Sunday evening and am still trying to figure out where the "Shutdown" is on KDE!!!
As guitargeek said it's "logout" but after that when you're at the root promt type: shutdown -h now[ENTER]

lol, took me 4 days to find that one out!

Well I have no intention of quiting in fact i'm kind of enjoying the challenge though I must say the learning curve is daunting at times (I am taking a break:))... and more often than not the 'man pages' are infact more confusing than putting together bits and pieces from the forums.... so all you newbies out there just keep asking those questions NO matter what. Dunno who said it but "there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers" and it's the truth:).

As for games I'm an X mac os 7/8/9/X user and I can't wait to play some real games!!! guess it'll be a few more weeks for that but i'm so lookin forward to this freedom from mac $oftware!

thanks all.

[sasKuatch]

or open up a terminal and type 'halt'

or add an icon in your menu that runs 'halt' as a program.

[dunbar]

Originally posted by bammbamm808
Find something that someone else has created and try to buy it outright at pass it off as their own. If not that, rip off the code and pass it off as their own. If not that, create an inferior alternative that is very proprietary and use their marketing muscle to coerce adoption of their solution. D3D has it's strong pionts, but always has been considerably slower than OpenGL. The real important point, however is that it only runs in Windows. Typical.
!!!!! YES !!!!!
Nice to see that someone else recognizes M$ tactics.... I get lonely in my little paranoid world when other people tell me M$ does only the right thing for everyone....... I'll stop myself right there.

[dunbar]

Originally posted by bammbamm808
Native:
Quake
Quake II
Quake III
RTCW
UT
UT2K3
Doom3 (yes it will be native)

Via Wine/Winex:
Halflife/TFC/CS/DoD, etc.

Not too bad, IMO.
This link here (http://www.linuxnewbie.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60750) also lists a site where DOlson has many tips about games on Linux (last I checked).

[primal]

sweet I like that a lot more:)

thanks sasKuatch!

[JQuinton]

:confused: I just love my Linux box! I tried to connect to the Internet last night. My box did not recognize my modem...I suppose it is a Wintel model. So, I need to purchase a tried and true modem that will work in Linux. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[sasKuatch]

Oh, you missed my thread a while ago about what Linux needs to rule the world. It involved the death of inDirectX, and the migration of gamers to Linux. (This was pre-UT2k3, when I was afraid it would be windows-only.)

I detest, no, no, I HATE Directx. I simply can't stand it...

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by primal
sweet I like that a lot more:)

thanks sasKuatch!

no prob

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by JQuinton
:confused: I just love my Linux box! I tried to connect to the Internet last night. My box did not recognize my modem...I suppose it is a Wintel model. So, I need to purchase a tried and true modem that will work in Linux. Does anyone have any suggestions?

From the my experience, setting up a nice Lucent linmodem is sinfully easy. I can't say the same for a full hardware modem.

[axgupta1]

I have been using Windows since 3.1. I know the intricacies of Windows and can make any version of windows desktop or server dance to my tune.

My experiences with Linux as a home desktop were mixed. Initially, I could not get anything to work. I cursed and called everyone a moron who said Linux is good. However, try my best, I could not get away from the Linux box. Over a period of 3 months, struggling, reading stuff in forums, reading help and doumentation on various sites, I could get most things to work. Now, though I cannot make changes to kernel code, I can download a kernel and compile it and boot into it without an error. I have made many Windows programs work in Linux using Wine. I rarely boot into the Windows partition. I wish Linux had more utilities and support for hardware. I can wait till these become available. There are many things I don't know how to do in Linux. This only makes my resolve stronger to learn how to do these things.

Can someone give me a reason why have I become a Linux fan in three months? Why have I given up Windows which I have been using for last 9 years? Has anyone else had such an experience?

[CrashTestDummy9]

Originally posted by axgupta1

Can someone give me a reason why have I become a Linux fan in three months? Why have I given up Windows which I have been using for last 9 years? Has anyone else had such an experience? I was the same way .
I still dont know THAT much about Linux , at least not enough to go "Windows free" , but im learning .

Linux is just plain addictive . Thats the best reason I can give for your change of heart(or OS) .:)

[Tranquillity]

Ok I got all excited about trying out my first Linux distro, reading all this wonderful stuff and looking at all the nice screenshots...

And I am a tinker, I just love to tinker with everything. My win98 is supersmooth, super fast as have download all these niffy system utility programs and all these wild programs from downloads.com .. I am super proud of it... so when I realise that I can tinker even more with Linux .... yeah...

So I downloaded the distro and was following the steps when.. boom first major problem... how to dual boot win2k with mandrake... Now as much as I like to try Linux out I dont like to pay for partition magic... then reading a bit more I realise how hard it would be to learn how to dual boot...

I am about to give up... maybe until there is better documentation on how to dual boot win2k and linux without paying exta for it.

[timhardy]

Originally posted by JQuinton
I need to purchase a tried and true modem that will work in Linux. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I thought I was a pretty competent computer user until I dived into linux a fortnight ago - now I'm very much out of my depths.

I have at least found a modem that works with linux and is available via amazon.co.uk: the Diamond SupraExpress 56e Pro 56K V90/V92 External Serial Modem.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063S38/qid=1037283136/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3_3/026-4039460-4938804

With this modem I have managed to get my new linux box to connect to the internet. It only took me two weeks... I cannot tell you the relief :) Once I have everything else working I'll be laughing.

Good luck!

[hlgaskill]

Just a little on sticking with it. Since I'm not very good with these things, I was surprised at how easy it was to install MDK9.0, all 6 or 7 times because of my screw-ups. Mr. Gates wouldn't let you do that without extra compensation. I'm still trying to figure it out myself but now I don't have ask permission to change the way MY PC or Laptop does things.

[sasKuatch]

Originally posted by Tranquillity
Ok I got all excited about trying out my first Linux distro, reading all this wonderful stuff and looking at all the nice screenshots...

And I am a tinker, I just love to tinker with everything. My win98 is supersmooth, super fast as have download all these niffy system utility programs and all these wild programs from downloads.com .. I am super proud of it... so when I realise that I can tinker even more with Linux .... yeah...

So I downloaded the distro and was following the steps when.. boom first major problem... how to dual boot win2k with mandrake... Now as much as I like to try Linux out I dont like to pay for partition magic... then reading a bit more I realise how hard it would be to learn how to dual boot...

I am about to give up... maybe until there is better documentation on how to dual boot win2k and linux without paying exta for it.

Just search (http://www.google.com/search?q=dual%20boot%20win2k%20linux&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) google.

[guitargeek]

Originally posted by Tranquillity
Ok I got all excited about trying out my first Linux distro, reading all this wonderful stuff and looking at all the nice screenshots...

And I am a tinker, I just love to tinker with everything. My win98 is supersmooth, super fast as have download all these niffy system utility programs and all these wild programs from downloads.com .. I am super proud of it... so when I realise that I can tinker even more with Linux .... yeah...

So I downloaded the distro and was following the steps when.. boom first major problem... how to dual boot win2k with mandrake... Now as much as I like to try Linux out I dont like to pay for partition magic... then reading a bit more I realise how hard it would be to learn how to dual boot...

I am about to give up... maybe until there is better documentation on how to dual boot win2k and linux without paying exta for it.


It's not hard to dual boot at all! If I can do it, anyone else sure as hell can.

Now, admittidly, I haven't tried to resize any partitions, since I have always had two hard drives, however, one of the options when installing Mandrake (plug plug plug) is that you can install it in the remaining space of your windows hard drive.

You know what I did to dual boot my machine? Boot from the Mandrake CD. That was it. It's the easiest thing in computing that I've done.

[UnderDog138]

I used FreeBSD for the longest time as a server platform when I ran an illegal web/ftp server in my dorm for a couple of years. That's how I learned unix to begin with. The only reason I like Windows is it's so damn broad when it comes to hardware: it supports just about everything. Also, my school and just about every other educational facility used it, so compatibility was no problem.

I've been trying to migrate over to unix for years, to get away from all the bad things about Windows. I've been trying to do it with FreeBSD for quite some time, and I finally made it happen in the past few months. The only thing not working was my SB Live! card, and I read support for that is really shady as far as the latest FBSD distro goes, so I tried Mandrake 9.0 which I had tried before, when it was 7.0. All I can say is this is great. I wiped out my XP partition and use this 24/7.

I only have a few gripes. When running halflife under wine (I play a lot of HL), it won't grab the directsound device.. I know there's no such thing, technically, but I can't use my mic which is a major part of my game, as I use that religiously.

I know wine isn't perfect and never will match up to native executables, but that's just my major gripe.

Also, us Linux (or Unix for that matter) users are still in a minority. If I write a paper in KWord or Abiword or anything like that, opening it in MS Office at school is a pain in the *** or next to impossible. If I want to make Power Point presentations, I have to bust out my other computer with XP on it, because KPresenter won't read ppt files.

That's the only reason I keep a Windows computer laying around: if I need to take my work to school. Other than that, I'm totally down with it.

So don't give up. I tried making the switch with FreeBSD which is a much bigger leap than just to Linux. Using Mandrake after using FreeBSD all these years makes it feel almost as easy as using Windows.

Peace.

[bammbamm808]

Originally posted by UnderDog138
I only have a few gripes. When running halflife under wine (I play a lot of HL), it won't grab the directsound device.. I know there's no such thing, technically, but I can't use my mic which is a major part of my game, as I use that religiously.

Oh no, one of THOSE players--me mutes thee!!!

J/K

[UnderDog138]

Face it, playing as commander in Natural Selection is next to impossible to do well without a mic. :)

[UsHeR_564]

quote:



Originally posted by windoze killa
Please don't think I am sticking up for NanoMush (smaller than micro and softer than soft) here but why do so many people seem to reformat and reinstall windoze? One of my machines at home had win95 installed on it back in 96 and has been upgraded and ghosted ever since. It is currently 98se but I have never done a fresh install sine the first installation of 95 and I don't see why it should be necessary. I have ghosted the partitions on to new drives and just had to reinstall drivers when upgrading hardware. It also very rarely chashes.

Worked on a customer's computer (bought in 1997) last week. Had the original hard drive crash, as in broke! When I checked it out, I found it had Windowz 95 OSR2 on it, which was the original install according to the owner. I believe him too as he IS NOT computer savvy! I'm not a Windowz supporter, but I think some of the "bad rap" on the OS is unwarranted. From my experience, it's usually some excrement (aka sh_t) that you installed on it that causes the problem. I've been running XP on 4 systems here at home since it was released and I don't have a single complaint about the OS, just the As_Hole that owns the company. I do, however, think within the next few years all Windowz software will be on a yearly "lease" and that's my main reason for wanting to learn Linux. I run a computer repair shop, part time. When I get up to speed on Linux, I'm going to offer it on some of the systems I sell. I think that the regular user could use Red Hat 8 for surfing and Email stuff and seeing as how it's free, it would help keep the price of the system down.

UsHeR_564

[camorri]

:p Well, I have to put in my nickels worth. I started years ago with DOS 3.? and the onto OS/2. I'm still an OS/2 fan. It worked and was stable. It took M$ until W2K to build a OS almost as good as OS/2. For you OS/2 haters, it is still running servers all over the world. Too bad IBM gave up on it., and the world never discovered it.

Linux - I'm using Slackware 8, and am about to switch to Mandrake 9.0. I have not been able to get a printer to work, can't make a sheet of paper move to save my soul. Read tons of stuff including material on Linuxprinting.org. This is typical of my only gripe with linux. If you can ever get if configured, it works very well. Do I like it? you bet. :D

[caribsoul]

It's not just the hardware...its the crytic commands, the lack of decent documentation....I sucessfully downloaded Mandrake 9.0 and installed it on 3 CDs...the first one was bootable. That was several months ago. It wouldn't install on my old, spare PC. I tried downloading Mandrake 8.2. I can't for the life of me figure out how to make bootable CDs for 8.2....and the site gives me no clues...no clear instructions, and I can't remember what the hell I did to get 9.0 to work. I finally got a copy of Red Hat 6.2 to load, but it won't shutdown properly and is totally corrupted. Now I can't even get rid of the partitions and logical drives that RH 6.2 put on my drives so I can reformat them and install Windows 98SE so my daughter in law can use it for her class work. I'd love to learn how to use Linux....if Linux would just cut me some slack.

[Odin]

Originally posted by caribsoul
It's not just the hardware...its the crytic commands, the lack of decent documentation....I sucessfully downloaded Mandrake 9.0 and installed it on 3 CDs...the first one was bootable. That was several months ago. It wouldn't install on my old, spare PC. I tried downloading Mandrake 8.2. I can't for the life of me figure out how to make bootable CDs for 8.2....and the site gives me no clues...no clear instructions, and I can't remember what the hell I did to get 9.0 to work. I finally got a copy of Red Hat 6.2 to load, but it won't shutdown properly and is totally corrupted. Now I can't even get rid of the partitions and logical drives that RH 6.2 put on my drives so I can reformat them and install Windows 98SE so my daughter in law can use it for her class work. I'd love to learn how to use Linux....if Linux would just cut me some slack.

Cut me some Slack. :cool: I like that. Anyway, I just got my Slackware 8.1 up and running on my box and I've been working on it since the end of August. My problem was with my hardware (vid card was archaic) as well as with my inexperience. I'm still no where near a guru, but I know more now than I did when I was running Mandrake 8.1. I understand your frustration, but you'll feel elation once you get it going. There's LOTS of documentation out there...some good...and some bad, you've just got to keep looking. As for Mandrake 8.2, I have no idea. When I had 8.1, I made a boot disk and a ramdisk from the iso which seemed to work really well with my setup. Instead of making a bootable CD, try to make a boot disk and a ram disk from the CD you burned. Additionally, double check your burn as I went through 2 CDs before I got a decent burn.

[hlgaskill]

Originally posted by Elijah
I'm not a linux pro, but I love the command line :D
It's the hacker-like look that got me into linux aside from other reasons .... GUI is important too, I agree. :D I'm very new to Linux and agree with you about the command line. Granted, it has it's place, but I would just as soon " point and click " to install something. Maybe in the near future! javascript:smilie(':D')
big grin Unlike many replies that I have read, most of my " stuff " on my old laptop and my old desktop work fine, probably by accident cause I wouldn't know how to fix it if it didn't

[rammstein69er]

I recently installed RH8.0 on my machine its not a really recent comp or anything yet i've run into so many problems and just when i though i had almost got my software modem working it stops booting!
during boot it stops at
Bringing up interface ppp0

so i go into rescue mode using the install disks and it doesnt give the me the slightest clue how to fix anything, i have tried posting the the technical support forum and no one will help me at all

this sux

i am just about to give up and live with Windows XP, it may be a little slow but it sure as hell works!

[Mountainman]

This is a true statement. My brother just did his first linux install the other day, and is progressing slowly in it. My brother in law did and install, and immediately got aggravated, pissed off, and quit because he did no prior research on linux and thought he could just jump right in with no help or training. Its all about patience.

Havent been here in a while, howdy all!

[Penrich]

You can't just jump in and expect it to work. I learnt this the hard way a few months ago, but I percevered, and got my system working. To rammstein69er, I looked up some of your posts prior to your comment above. I hope you get your problem sorted, but you need to give the "gurus newbies" here a bit more than 2 hours to get your problem solved. Just figure than when you post, half the gurus are at their day jobs and the other half are asleep, so give it 24 hours before doing a gentle *bump*. Stick at it, and it will come together :)

[UnderDog138]

I'd have to agree there. While Linux is getting easier to use and maintain, it's still not perfect out of the box. Nothing is, not even MordorSoft products or Mandrake. I started using Linux with RedHat 5.0 back in the day, and that was before it was a newbie friendly desktop system so I stopped using it. I started using FreeBSD to run my illegal FTP/HTTP servers in my dorm at school, and I love that O/S and have been using it for years ever since. Only thing keeping me from using it right now is the fact that I can't get my sound card to work with it (SB Live!). I picked up Mandrake 9.0 and it worked great for me as a desktop machine. I felt that was too newbie-friendly for me, since I'm so used to being totally on my own with BSD, so I switched to Gentoo. I learned a lot more about Linux in the past week than I ever did with Mandrake or RedHat. Getting the damn thing working right is a challenge and when I get something to work I feel much better about myself. I'm trying to get printing to work as of right now.

Don't give up. The longer you stick with it the more you'll learn and the more proud you'll feel of yourself.

[sasKuatch]

AAAARRRGGHHH, IT'S THE BUMP MONSTER!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

[gehidore]

when windoze 98 se came out my dad bought it so i figure what the heck i should use it to fall back on in case of user error ID10T But i havent touched it senc install i now run 8.0 ON A 333 WITH 198MB RAM AND A VIPER Z220 32MB SDAC VID RAM AND I LOVE IT ITS A TAD SLOW BUT ITS WELL WORTH IT AND IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME TO MESS WITH IT DONT WORRY ITS NOT HARD IT TOOK ME TWO YEARS TO FIGURE OUT THAT IT WAS MY PROBLEM NOT LINUXS' FAULT


HEHEHE ITS TO MUCH FUN JUST KEEP TRYIN':D

[geekgirl21]

Originally posted by UnderDog138
If I write a paper in KWord or Abiword or anything like that, opening it in MS Office at school is a pain in the *** or next to impossible. If I want to make Power Point presentations, I have to bust out my other computer with XP on it, because KPresenter won't read ppt files.



Try http://www.openoffice.org/. It has an office suite that can read and create both *.doc and *.ppt files. And it's Open Source, too!

[rustskull]

I just moved my daughter to abiword (because the gui looked pretty good and it seemed to be complete) but it has trouble with any MS generated files. Word, wordpad, notepad, doesn't matter. FUnny formatting stuff happens even with a cut and paste of a text doc from windows. I will have to try open office, but the first time I hit the site, it looked like it was source and you had to compile it yourself. Someone just told me a couple days ago that there are downloadable binaries for ALL os, so we'll give it a whirl. I want us to be able to generate docs at home on linux and be able to have anyone pop em open, mac, win, or otherwise.

I'll give it a try here soon...

ANd I did jump right into linux, but it took me till the third attempt to install before I figured out how to make it do what I wanted. That's what I get for using Debian, though. That was the 2.2 installs, maybe the 3.0 is a little better. The PnP features definitely are. Win2k HATES ISA cards, and the ISAPnP in linux picks them all right the hell up and seems to know what damn near everything is.

I fired up deb 3.0 install cds on this funky new fusion platform I got and it had an easier time configin it than win2k as well. win2k didn't really want anything to do with this setup (fic at31/athxp 1900+) and linux came up and just SMOKED the install. I installed it (with a 52x cdr) in about 20 minutes as opposed to hours trying to convince win2k to uninstall the ****ty lan driver that it was trying to use. What's especially cool about this is it has the radeon chipset on it, and lan, and everything else, so I basically have an empty case with hdd, floppy, cdr, and mobo. there is not a single pci/isa card in the system. It only has three slots, anyhow, and they ditched the godawful modem riser...erk.

enough about that, I suppose.

-rust

[Fingel]

I was about to quit on Linux, but then I saw this post. Right now I cant use Linux because my mouse dosnt work, and im way to much of a newb to use the prompt. so if you feel like getting me back on my feet, check out my post at http://www.linuxnewbie.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83019
thanks all you knowledgeable people, I envy you.

[totallinuxnewb]

hardware... grrrr :(

[sasKuatch]

Oh, I know, that and a corrupt CD can ruin your day. Like I said before; next time you buy, build, or upgrade your computer, shop with linux in mind. You'll be happy with what you get: generally better quality hardware.

Hang in there ppl, I know it's hard, I've been in your shoes.:)

[elbiscuito]

You know...I installed Redhat 8 on a laptop and dual booted it to Win2k because I have to use it at work. I got everything working but my darn Linksys WLAN card.

You wanna give me hope?

Let me pay you for some phone support or someone tell me which pcmcia wlan card to go buy that 2.4.18-14 will automatically recognize.

I've had enough of M$ but I'm on the verge of selling my car and buying a G4:mad:

[stevewabc]

There is nothing rong with the G4 thay ROCK!!!! and also best of all, the new ones are linux based GO GO GO MAC..... I wish there software was out for PC computer I would get it in a min.

We run all G4 at the office and at home P4 with redhat 8.0

LINUX ROCKS !!!!!!!!!

It takes time to learn, I wish thay had a online class for us green pies lolol that didnt cost $100's of dollars then I think linux would walk all over Microsucks .......People would'nt start with it then RUN back to Microsucks....

[glaston]

Yeah I haven't had that many problems with Linux. Right now, my CD-RW doesn't work. That's only because I haven't set it up yet.
The problem with it is that CD-RW's are VERY VERY common peripherals. And the way you have to set them up is not very user friendly. So, when a Windows user comes over to Linux, and has to change his bootloader, make the system load a SCSi emulation driver at boot, and manipulate the filesystem, this kind of scares many new users off.
I mean, how common is a CD-RW drive? Why is it that Linux can only use SCSI burners right out of the box?
I know that long ago, SCSI was the default for drives under Linux. However, it's been about 6 years since IDE's became the default for almost all computers. You'd think there would be an easier way to setup a burner in Linux by now!

Also, Samba. WTF??? A person shouldn't have to go through all that just to share files with a Windows machine. Setup a WINS server, set the windows boxes for clear text passwords (major security issue there), setup your exports file, etc.

The whole thing is like having to conceive, raise, and butcher a cow just for 1 lousy steak.

This is the downside to open source. Where all the coders are working on big complex projects, while neglecting the basic stuff. Basically, there's nobody telling the coders that they have to distribute their time across all the different aspects of the system. They just work on what they want to. So, for the uninitiated, it's a coin toss of whether or not some coder/s saw the need to spend time on resolving the issue you're struggling with at the time.

I would say it's sometimes like reinventing the wheel but that's going too far. It's more like someone giving you a square block of wood to carve a wheel out of.:confused:

I think it will be a long time til Linux can be a desktop replacement for Windows. It might not ever happen either!

What would help would be a group that moderates projects. If you want to work on a project, you submit a request, and based on your skills, and the need for people on specific projects, you get placed where you're needed. Instead of having 500 guys all working on different variations of a front end for Samba, while there's only 1 guy working on making it easier to setup a CD burner.

I know that this is the nature of open source, and I'm not saying it should change. I'm just saying there has to be a more efficient way.

[evdama]

surely thats what the big-name distros should be doing- asking coders to focus on areas while orchestrating the bigger picture.
Thats one thing I have noticed with linux (even though ones like mandrake 9 are more integrated now ) is that its clear its all written by diferent people, not working together.
Thats a good thing for linux as we know it but not neccessarily good for those who wish it to challenge other os-es.

Oh,and why does ML9 list my scanner specifically in the hardware installer then tell me that theres no support!

[rayor]

I agree with sasKuach. Linux is a great tool that everyone should use. Right now settup up a linux box can be a little tricky but who knows what might be developed in the future. Especially since MS is leaning toward Pallidium and the "Trusted Computer Platform Alliance" or TCPA. We might see more support for linux drivers and software in the futurue because it simply is a better operating system.

[rcu316]

I have to say I am not as impressed as I thought I would be with Linux. Over a course of a 7 week period I have installed 5 differnet distributions, Debian, Mandrake, RedHat, Libranet and Suse. So far Suse is the only I have installed that worked without multiple problems.

One thing, I am running a Dell Optiplex with an onboard video card. The Optiplex doesn't have an AGP slot so I am using a Radeon 7000 PCI video card. Suse is the ONLY system that has picked it up on installation correctly and not froze up the X system. I have been able to get the other distributions going after much switching back and forth between the onboard ATI and the Radeon 7000. I will have to say that Lnux isn't near as fast as previous Windows versions on my machine either. The other trouble is the CD writer. It seems to be a big problem also.

It is no big deal but I did just want to add my 2 cents worth on Linux here as I had a lot of time to kill the past couple of months and wanted to give it a try. I still have Mandrake 9.1 I am using now. I have a ton of errors I have been working on and still am. It seems like a lot if time and skill are needed to get Linux to run.

[Philip1952]

Yeah I haven't had that many problems with Linux. Right now, my CD-RW doesn't work. That's only because I haven't set it up yet. The problem with it is that CD-RW's are VERY VERY common peripherals. And the way you have to set them up is not very user friendly. So, when a Windows user comes over to Linux, and has to change his bootloader, make the system load a SCSi emulation driver at boot, and manipulate the filesystem, this kind of scares many new users off. I mean, how common is a CD-RW drive? Why is it that Linux can only use SCSI burners right out of the box? I know that long ago, SCSI was the default for drives under Linux. However, it's been about 6 years since IDE's became the default for almost all computers. You'd think there would be an easier way to setup a burner in Linux by now!

I am not sure on that eather. I have a SCSI cd-rom and burner. I can't gety eather one to work. Thats another post for later. Mandrake 9

[sasKuatch]

rcu316 and others, you clearly haven't been into linux that long, because you haven't seen how it has improved.

You haven't seen the days when getting your hard drive partitioned properly, your cd-rom working, your monitor working without frying it in the process of trying incorrect refresh rates was a hassle. I remember it took me about 6 months to configure my soundcard; all I had to do was type 'sndconfig'. Before that, it took be about 2 months to get linux working to the point where I could use X.

No offense, but you guys are spoiled in cushy comfort. In the early days, we had to walk 15 miles in the snow barefoot...;) Just kidding.:p

About the speed: I'm not surprised that it runs slower, it is SuSE after all; probably the slowest, most bloated distro you can find. I also bet you are using either KDE or GNOME, also the most bloated environments you can use. I would suggest maybe Icewm for a beginner, as the *box, Afterstep, Enlightenment, etc might be difficult for beginners. Icewm has a nice windows-like feel (maybe nice isn't the word, but you get the idea), and is easy to use on top of its fairly small resource footprint.

Therefore, I have to correct you about that. SuSE might be slow, but just compile LFS from scratch sometime, boot up in 10 seconds flat, and then tell me linux slow. Linux is far too diverse to be labeled as anything besides diverse and rich in choices.

That's all.

[Loki3]

About 8 months ago I installed Red Hat 7.3 on my computer. I remember that installation took a few practice runs till I got the the hang of it. I remember it took me 3 weeks to get my damn winmodem working, and then, that was it, I was in. Once I had internet, there was no turning back cause I could easily get to LNO :). But I remember those first 3 weeks I thought'd I go crazy. Here's my advice, if you can't get linux to work, just turn it off, go read a book or go outside, and come back later, it's only an operating system. As my father is so fond of saying "You gotta be smarter than the computer."... but damn, 8 months later, I'm sure glad I didn't give up in those first three weeks. So go newbies! Hang in there.


_Loki

[eskimo]

After many attempts to get red hat 7.2 to work with my video card I gave up broke down a nd purchased the latest red hat 8.0. The installation went well and it recognized my software and hardware. The interface is very much "windows freindly" , by this I mean that it is intuitive to windows users. I know that some will not care for this but for many of us linux newbies it is needed to intro us to the linux world. After messing around for a while I will probably try another distro. Any suggestions?:D

[ixthus]

Originally posted by sasKuatch
No offense, but you guys are spoiled in cushy comfort. In the early days, we had to walk 15 miles in the snow barefoot...;) Just kidding.:p


LOL cushy is nice! tried RH5.2 for a couple of weeks when it came out. tried RH7.0 for a couple of weeks when it came out. tried RH7.1 / 2 for a couple of weeks when it came out, [compatability issues]. Running RH8.0 now w/web server and loving it.

Last month i broke down and got high speed cable, hooked up the router...virus xp for the family computers and RH8.0 for the web server. simple sweet and fairly intuitive [getting the ftp server working is still kicking my butt, yet thats the fun of it].

Anyway... don't give up. Take a break if you need, but come back again, it'll be worth it!

<><

[ixthus]

getting the ftp server working is still kicking my butt, yet thats the fun of it

:D :D waa hooo! update, I have the ftp server working! Used Proftp 1.2.7

hint... The easiest way is to fire up proftpd manually from the command line with the debug level cranked up. /usr/local/sbin/proftpd -d9 -n

---> moral of the story DON'T give up! <---


<><

[nuttron]

Yesss linux sure keeps them neurones active....i have flirted with the penguin for nearly a year now....love it,i like the diversity of distributions...i have a lot to learn about the command line but when i use it and it works...wow what a feeling....it is also good to know that i can get by without micro$oft....although the wife needs it for her university works...

So far i have installed and used mandk8.1(everything works with both newer and older machine),libranet,peanut,lycoris,rh7,rh7.2,debian woody,elx.....mandk9.0,slackware8.1.....amazing.

I have to admit that for me the distros that recognised all my hardware are mdk8.1 and mdk9.0 and rh7.2....sooo i am writing this from slak8.1....i keep one hd for linux only on this machine(500mhz 256 ram) i have woody on another partition, and mdk9.0 on the other.....i will post back later about my cdrw problem in slack...i know i should stick with one distro and learn from there but....that's the way it is for me ....

this is a great forum...always got answers here...oh the joy of computing.....bye and bye i will give lfs a go...this is the best way to learn from what i see on this board....i am off to Chapters for another Linux book.....ciao:D

[Creeah1]

I am dual booting mandrake 8.1 and Windows ME. I haven't had any time at all to "fiddle" with Linux. I originally installed 9.0, but had some problems with it freezing up when the desktop appeared, so I installed 8.1, which installed without a hitch.
Like I said, I haven't had anytime to mess with it. Right now, I only use it for the internet, as my dsl runs much faster than on Windows. Also, my connection seems to get slower and slower with Windows until I just have to reconnect. Linux keeps me running at top speed for days.
The only problem I've had is getting my Verizon email to work through kde's email client (can't remember the name). I don't really use it too much though, so it isn't a problem. I also haven't tried my cdrw. I wouldn't know how if I wanted to. I have got to get some sort of LInux help manual. I haven't had the chance to experience Linux in full yet, but from what I've seen so far, I like it. Of course, once I start messing around with it, I'll probably have to come back to this thread for moral support!!

[sasKuatch]

Creeah1, you are lucky you can get online with linux. You don't know (I assume) how hard it is to have to reboot to windows every time you need to look something up, or download another driver or something. That back and forth is horrible, I'm happy for you that you can skip that step. You have much easier access to info and downloads that way. Good luck!:)

[Creeah1]

I was actually very surprised that I was able to get online too. When I was installing it, it was asking me a whole lot of questions about adsl service that I had no idea what the answers were or how to get them. So I slapped something in there just to get passed that part and figured I'd try and find out what my dns server and all that was and come back to it. Lo and behold, it worked.

I think I'm going to do what somebody suggested earlier in the thread: get an older computer and install linux on it without windows or anything. Will the newer releases work on say... a P1 233mhz w/MMX with a 196mb RAM and a 30gb hard drive? (Don't ask, I didn't build it)

So far Linux seems to be like a new religion... once you get passed all the why's, how's, and what the hell's, you just go with it and don''t even think about the other religion anymore, because that would be BLASPHEMY!!!

[sasKuatch]

Yes, it should work. Mandrake 8.1 (the one I have) requires 64mb of RAM to install. I somehow got it running on my 166mhz (overclocked to 233) with 48mb or RAM. It wasn't fast, but it worked. Get in there and have fun.

[CluelUX]

I am someone who has perhaps just past that very first threshold of having SOME linux success, so I can definately agree and reiterate several of these points. One is that Linux success definately DOES depend greatly on hardware issues. I am writing this from a modem connection on my Linux box. It took me the better part of two months (although I don't have much time to devote each day) to get my serial port working and to get all my disk drives working etc. Now I can do what I set out to do, which was learn about Linux and unix based Web and Database stuff.

I'd just like to add that I wish I there was more information to help the Windows people over that threshold. There's a paradigm of knowledge required for Windows that is completely diametrically opposed to that which is required for Linux ( and unix for that matter). I found that I kept getting suggestions like read the man or a HOWTO. More often than not, those resources don't help very much because they ASSUME a body of knowledge which, if you possessed it, you wouln't be reading the document in the first place.

Actually I found that I just had to beat my head against a wall until I figured it out through empirical research.

Here's an example. A linux friend told me I had to have a PPP interface in order to be able dial up my PPP. Not being a total ignoramous, I'd heard the PPP meant Point-to Point Protocol (maybe not but that's what I thought). And he said if I typed 'ifconfig -a' I'd see all the interfaces on my system. So i did that and I didn't see it. Okay, so off I go to read the PPP HOWTO. And it's talking about recompiling the kernel and all that. Later I reilized that RH 8.0 has PPP compiled in. So what it came down to is that I had to get my interrupts straight for my serial port and other cards, then add the nameservers' IP addresses to a couple of .conf files and away we go. Now I get the PPP in the list of "interfaces" but I thought I had to download and compile and start some daemon or mutter some magic words or something.

I'm the kind of guy who will learn more if I can get the bare bones info first, then I'll have an access point into the theory and errata. I think I'm hearing that there are more people like me. If we can get some minimal success first, then the arcane docs will start to make some more sense.

Anyway, I'm glad there is a site like this and I'm going to try to post some "how I did it posts" even though I'm still a newbie, before I lose the ability to speak that language.

[FossiL]

Hey People!

Installed Slackware 8.1 a couple of days ago - it was my first 'real' contact with the Linux world. (clicked myself through a RedHat installation at a friends place once - but that doesnt count ;)

Before i started up i printed the entire 'Slackware Linux Essentials' from slackware's website - my printer almost ran out of ink, but it was worth it...

Of course i ran into trouble at once during the installation - i installed LILO at the wrong place. A quick launch into M$ XP and IE helped me find this place - my problems were solved within 5 minutes - the forum gave me an answer immediately - back to slackware and a reinstall of LILO into MBR sorted things out.

Thank you all who spends time here helping us newbs out - without yer help we'd be stuck.

[nipperdj]

I am coming to this late but here are some points that have been missed (I didn't read pages 9-15 so forgive me!)

Comparing Beta to VHS or MAC to Windows are not the right comparisons. Unix predates both and todays modern implementation is essentially an updated and partially GUI'fied extension. Linux is superior because it is more stable and reliable. It is superior because the expert user can exert greater control and has more flexibility.

The applications on Windows (not the OS) are in general superior to the applications on Linux. Certainly there are more choices. Windows flourished not because it was the best market choice, it flourished because often it was the only (reasonable) market choice.

Macs never took big hold because they made it costly and difficult (and often impossible) to write 3rd party software. Windows (and DOS before that) at least had the good sense to make API's and hooks available to software developers. Plus it was a simple enough OS that dimwitted programmers could create something truly useful.

Linux is not ready for main stream office productivity use (IMHO) but it is close. Distro's like Redhat are angering die-hard linux-philes because they are watering down many aspects and getting more like Windows. But this needs to be done if the stranglehold that MS has on the computer users of the world is ever to be broken.

Concerning the extreme lovers/haters of command-line interface... I view it as a tool. I never stopped using a hammer because a nail gun existed. If I need a nail gun, thats what I use. If i need a hammer, I use a hammer. Win2K/XP both have moved heavily to command line administration. They have in fact moved closer to Unix in the past 3 years than Linux have moved towards Windows. And scripting is equally prevalent in Windows programming now as 3/4gl IDE's. Javascript, Perl, VB Script, PHP, etc. are getting all the attention and should be the focus of any aspiring programmer.

Any way thats my 2 cents.

[gmajane]

I just spent the last few days reading the posts on this thread. I am a grandmother of eight whose other hobbies are sewing and gardening. I tried Caldera a couple of years ago and could not get enough things working to continue using it. THis fall I installed Mandrake 8.2 and it went reasonably well so I bought Mandrake 9.0. I have my essentials working...Connected to our home LAN and using Opera for internet browsing, Zapping for my WinTv, LICQ for my ICQ buddies, and CD drive working with headphones (all essentials for grandmothers). These set up automatically by Mandrake or with a little tweaking by myself. Now I am trying to get the sound to work with KDE as well as my CDRW drive to work as a CDRW, as well as JavaScript working consistently in my browsers. Apparently my digital camera and scanner will not work in Linux. Good thing I have a dual boot with Win2000, but the lion's share of my computer time is spent on Linux.

I have a lot to learn about the Konsole and command line, but it is fun learning. I just wanted people to know that a non-techie was able to get up and running with Mandrake 9.0. I have installed Win95,98 and 2000 a number of times, finding the needed drivers and such and swapped out most of my own computer parts, but that is the extent of my experience.

Any advice on getting a SiS audio 7012 working? I get get sound when I boot up and the OS identifies the card so I must not have it configured correctly.

Thanks

[ixthus]

Originally posted by gmajane
I am a grandmother of eight whose other hobbies are sewing and gardening.

hehehe, go grandma! no age discrimination here ---> X

Cordially, a grandfather of 6 :D

[sasKuatch]

CluelUX, I'm the same way, but unfortunately, it's difficult to find that critical shred of information that will make it easier. To this day, I have not configured my serial modem yet, so it looks like you're doing great. Keep at it people.

[hathor1]

I've only been running Linux for 3 weeks (Mandrake 9.0) and already I'm migrating all of my data to the Penguin and using Windows only when I have to. I think my experience, back in the old days, with MS DOS has helped me to grasp the OS easier, even though the directory structure is much different.

If you're having hardware problems - don't despair. When I installed Linux, I discovered that my modem wasn't supported, even though it is a hardware modem. I did a little checking, however, and found that even though the modem manufacturer didn't support Linux, the chipset manufacturer is a big Linux supporter, and had an RPM for a generic driver for all modems using this chipset (although it does not yet support fax capabilities). I downloaded the driver, installed it and got right online. Not bad, I figured, for someone who'd been using Linux for less than a week!!! Same with my printer, which is not supported by the manufacturer. I did some online searching, found that a developer liked the printer I use and had reverse engineered a driver for Linux. Another download (this time a tar ball - again not bad for someone who'd only been on Linux for about two weeks by this time), another install and Presto! I can print. (If I sound too, too proud, I am!)

On Windows, at least three times per week I get the "Blue Screen of Death." I have yet to have a system crash on Linux. So my question is - why bother with Windows?

As to unsurported hardware: just do a little online research, and you might find your problem solved.

Linux rules!!!