Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Question for all the Debian gurus out there


milanuk
12-07-2000, 10:43 AM
Hello,

I apologize if this has been beat to death; I didn't find much directly tied to it, but then I didn't spend all night digging either http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/wink.gif Mainly I'm looking for confirmation or correction of what I think I've figured out.

Lets say that a user has a Debian 2.2r2 system, running nicely, and it works well, lasts long time, and all that. But the user wants either a more up-to-date version of a package than what is in the stable tree, or even for that matter than the unstable tree. Or software that isn't available in debian packages at all.

This leaves the user w/ a few options:

a) Change the /etc/apt/sources.list file to point to the unstable tree and do an 'apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade'. This has the drawbacks of a potentially hosed system, if unstable is having a particularly bad day, and it still doesn't address the issue of
unstable not always having the latest and most up-to-date version of a given package. I'm not pointing fingers here, but two examples would be apcupsd and postgresql, last time I looked at them. (Note- Yes, postgresql has been updated recently to the latest version.) Plus, if a person has a really slow connection (broadband isn't that widespread yet), this could take a really long time, like days. Plus, any future package adds will have to take place via the same slow connection.

b) Change the /etc/apt/sources.list like above, do an 'apt-get update' and then try 'apt-get install <package-name>' This may allow a user to retain a mostly 'stable' system, w/ a few 'unstable packages, which is good. But it still has the same problems as a).

c) I saw it mentioned in passing about grabbing the source deb's from 'unstable' and compiling them on 'stable'? Does this work? Aren't those packages going to 'want' the same things they need in unstable, and barf upon compiling? Could someone please give some examples? Anyway, this still has the problem of maybe not being the most up-to-date, but it would be manageable, maybe.

d) The user could download the source tarballs and compile from scratch. This would alleviate the problem of up-to-date-ness (nice word, huh? http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/wink.gif ), but might cause problems integrating into the package management system. Plus, it would likely be a major PITA for more than just a few applications. I've seen references to 'equivs' or some such for telling the package management system that such & such dependencies are filled by locally installed software; is this right?

I know this is fairly long, but these are really the only major issues I've got w/ Debian as a system, and I'd like to get them
resolved/cleared up, at least for my own peace of mind.

TIA,

Monte

--


[This message has been edited by milanuk (edited 07 December 2000).]

MADHATter7
12-07-2000, 11:57 AM
Well, I am NOT by any stretch of the imagination even remotely a Debian guru, but I can fill you in on what I have done/attempted. I was running a stable Debian 2.2r2 system and decided to update to Woody. (unstable) I have attempted to do this and/or done this several times already with varying degrees of success.

ALWAYS use apt-get upgrade rather than apt-get dist-upgrade. The latter has done nothing but leave me with broken packages and/or packages that will not install.

I have also run a semi-stable Debian system with the majority being 2.2r2 and a few "unstable" packages that I wanted to try. This actually worked pretty well.

It also seems that running a pure Woody system works as well, as that is what I am running now. The only problem I have is getting X 4.0.1 configured.

And I have downloaded the latest nightly Mozilla and Netscape 4.75 from Netscape.net. (However, I *may* upgrade to Netscape 4.76 --if I can ever get X up and running again)

Just me rambling, I guess. I don't know if this has helped you or not. Just remember, apt-get upgrade and pay attention to extra packages being installed and packages being removed !!

If you run into problems, do not hesitate to post your question here. We will do our very best to help you.

MADHATter7 http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif

ColdPack
12-07-2000, 12:14 PM
I have to throw in a few pennies here...
I run Debian 2.2r2 and I also have a few "unstable" packages and everything seems to work fine. I also know that there are many who run perfectly stable woody systems.
BUT! I am not sure why you want "bleeding edge" stuff. That, IMHO, is not "up-to-date". I consider "up-to-date" as the latest and most stable version of that package. Anything else and you run the risk of messing things up ... even little by little.
So, to keep up-to-date for security or stability, you will only need to keep that Debian 2.2r2 and "apt-get upgrade" occasionally for said security purposes.
If your thinking of hacking about some of this bleeding edge stuff, go for it. But you don't need to "apt-get dist-upgrade" to hose your system... if doesn't take that much to do it sometimes.

klamath
12-07-2000, 03:13 PM
I personally always use unstable. I'd recommend just biting the bullet and upgrading to unstable -- doing it piecemeal seems like a recipe for trouble.

postgresql has been updated recently to the latest version

Do you mean 7.0.3? If I were you, I'd consider using the upcoming 7.1 beta release. It's even better than 7.0.x - I've been running CVS snapshots for the past couple months, and it's been very nice. In any case, I'd recommend compiling PostgreSQL from source.

------------------
- Klamath
Get my GnuPG Key Here (http://klamath.dyndns.org/mykey.asc)
Looking for an open source project to contribute to? Check out the Better Bulletin Board (http://bbb.sourceforge.net)

milanuk
12-07-2000, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by ColdPack:
I have to throw in a few pennies here...
I run Debian 2.2r2 and I also have a few "unstable" packages and everything seems to work fine. I also know that there are many who run perfectly stable woody systems.
BUT! I am not sure why you want "bleeding edge" stuff. That, IMHO, is not "up-to-date". I consider "up-to-date" as the latest and most stable version of that package.

So PostgreSQL 6.5 is considered 'up-to-date'? As compared to what? Apcupsd 3.6.x is 'up-to-date' when the latest 'stable' release is 3.8.0, which fixes problems in 3.6.x & 3.7.x? Check the bug reports for both and the maintainers just tell you to update to unstable, rather than making packages available for 'stable'. Notice a pattern here...?

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but sometimes the available packages in the 'stable' tree, even including 'security' and 'proposed-updates' are woefully out of date. What I would like is a method to keep stuff I want/need up-to-date (not talking bleeding edge alpha/beta here) w/ the latest bug fixes as determined by the developers of said packages, not necessarily the debian package maintainers, who as volunteers still only have a finite amount of time on their hands. And still manage to not 'break' the system or interfere w/ the package management.

Anything else and you run the risk of messing things up ... even little by little.
So, to keep up-to-date for security or stability, you will only need to keep that Debian 2.2r2 and "apt-get upgrade" occasionally for said security purposes.
If your thinking of hacking about some of this bleeding edge stuff, go for it. But you don't need to "apt-get dist-upgrade" to hose your system... if doesn't take that much to do it sometimes.

milanuk
12-07-2000, 07:02 PM
Well, I found a temporary solution... sorta
http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/apt-sources/

All kinds of 'unofficial' sources for deb packages, including one for postgreSQL 7.0.3 for potato.

Monte

ColdPack
12-07-2000, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by milanuk:
Well, I found a temporary solution... sorta
http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/apt-sources/

All kinds of 'unofficial' sources for deb packages, including one for postgreSQL 7.0.3 for potato.

Monte

Exactly. Like I did say, too, was that I do have some things on the unstable tree.
Some things.
But doing a dist-upgrade for things you can do with a simple "apt-get install php4" or whatever is the wrong way to go about it. That's way over the top.
Point your sources.list to the unstable tree but install those things you need, then. Not the whole darn thing. It isn't necessary.
That was my point.


http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/logos/penguins/linuxbeer.gif


------------------
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?"
---Marilyn Pittman


[This message has been edited by ColdPack (edited 07 December 2000).]

knute
12-07-2000, 07:45 PM
Awwww Shucks....
It is fun to get everything and then try and figure out what went wrong. http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/wink.gif
I have found that some of the broken packages are those that haven't had some dependency or other updated yet and should in a day or two....

Another thing with X 4.0.x... You want to use the xserver-xfree86 for most video cards with any age on them (6 mos or more)...
If you have one that is newer you may need the svga one... I did the same thing till I sat down one day and rtfm... http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ubb/smile.gif Just thought that I would mention it because I sat in console mode exclusively for 3 or 4 days until I was desperate enough to read the directions... (My vid card is a matrox (SVGA under 3.3.x)... Xfree server under 4.0)...

------------------
Knute
Email: knuteh@yahoo.com
ICQ: 53979509
GAIM: knutehall