Interesting article in Wired, or, Are you autistic?

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Some one else posted this in a forum I frequent;
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html

I thought it was a some what interesting article about a little known neurological disorder known as Asperger's Syndrome (AS). Basicaly it's a form of high functioning autism.

Any way, I took the little multiple choice test that came with it and scored rather high (40). Not being the type to trust online tests I went to research it myself.

To my surprise, I found that I had many of the symptoms of AS.

It seems that AS type people seem to gravitate towards computers. It's an environment that requires little social interaction, and where one is rewarded for remembering huge amounts of technical information.

[bdl]

Hmm very interesting. I scored a 32 on the test, the 'cut off' number. I agree with you on the assessment, I too spend alot of time tinkering with 'things' rather than spending time in social situations. I don't know that it means anything, my personal view is that most people have some sort of mental disorder, that's the reason behind the self-medication millions find in tobacco, alcohol and casual drug use.

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

I have to agree that no one is "perfect" or really truely "normal". However, everybody tends to fall into 2 broad catagories; "Mis-wired brains" and "Issues". Basicaly, nature vs nurture.

Mis-wired brains is just that. For what ever reason, your brain doesn't function the way most everyone elses does.

Issues tend to be things you pick up though experience. Like some one who is deadly afraid of water because they almost drowned once.

Most everyone I know has an "issue" of one form or another. After all, we are the sum of our experiences, and we haven't all had the same experiences.


It is kind of weird after reading a bunch of stuff about AS, and then noticing the things I do in day to day life.

The other day, I was at my favorite coffee shop. While there, I noticed some one had left a cordless phone there. The people working there thought it was funny that some one would bring there cordless to the coffee shop (surely by accident), and then leave it there (another accident). However, the only thing on my mind was an overwhelming urge to dismantle it.

In retrospect, it seems kind of strange that I would want to dismantle some one else's cordless phone. The fact that it was _some_one_else's_ phone didn't even cross my mind at the time.

[Evil Jeff]

I got a 38. But a lot of those can be very environmental - for instance, I pretended a lot when I was a kid because I didn't have a lot of friends. Many of those are also just symptons of being a dork without a lot of friends (like me :D )

But I think it's interesting that that could be considered mild autism or AS.

[--C4--]

Clocking in here at 34.

I find it hard to believe only 3 of us took this. The rest of you must be paranoid of your score or something. :) Come'on lets hear it.

[vvx]

I only got a 29.

[mrBen]

31

[TacKat]

37

[conjure]

I got a 22. I expected to get higher because I'm kind of socially inept, but I'm not really fascinated with numbers and patterns either, so I guess 22 is right.
I sent it to a friend who has a little boy who has some problems but they're not really sure what. He loves numbers and patterns and I've been wondering if he could be autistic, but he isn't spacy like the autistic kids you see on TV. Maybe this is what he has.

[evilcartman]

15 **** I am no geek :)

[Icarus]

This was a very interesting article, makes me really worried about my daughter...I only scored 21, but that's because I HATE repetition and not very social (I didn't have a very good time in school, in fact, it really sucked to be me). I hate algebra, but excelled in Statistics and similar classes...

At least my wife is 'normal'...I think...she is compared to me at least! :D

[Christian Olsson]

I don't see why pepole with AS would have problems with their teachers: They want to learn and their teachers want to learn them.

However I had 39 and is quite proud of it, it would be a shame to have 20 or less. But I think AS and autism is invented because pepole that like being with other pepole want to feel better than those that are "gifted" within something "hard" like math, computers, etc

Like: "Yeah of course he's a math genius but he doesn't want to be with us. It must be something wrong with him. He must be mentally ill. Yeah that's it. I don't know any math but atleast I'm sane!"

Edit: I can't spell in English but atleast I'm aware of it.

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: Christian Olsson ]

[mychl]

20

[saulecker]

Originally posted by --C4--:
<STRONG>Clocking in here at 34.

I find it hard to believe only 3 of us took this. The rest of you must be paranoid of your score or something. :) Come'on lets hear it.</STRONG>

I got a 22... you guys are freaks!

just kidding!

:D

[ASCI Blue]

Why would someone really want to be in a social situation? People are stupid and generally sheep, the fewer of them there are the happier ASCI would be.

[hswoolve]

I took the test, got a 31, I could probably be diagnosed as "mildly autistic", but I think some of what the article and the test consider "asperger's" or "autism" might be characterised as a "non verbal learning disability".

Look here: Non Verbal Learning Disabilites on the Web (http://www.nldontheweb.org/)
for more info.

The short version is thus: there are components of IQ, both verbal and non verbal. If someone scores markedly higher on the verbal than on the non-verbal, then you tend to be more socially clueless than others.

[bdl]

Originally posted by Evil Jeff:
<STRONG>I got a 38. But a lot of those can be very environmental - for instance, I pretended a lot when I was a kid because I didn't have a lot of friends. Many of those are also just symptons of being a dork without a lot of friends (like me :D )

</STRONG>

Yes, BUT! was not having alot of friends the cause of something like Aspergers or truly because of environmental issues (not living around alot of other kids, not being allowed to go out of the house, etc). Hmmmm?

[Evil Jeff]

It was because my parents were suing the school over testing us over our knowledge of christmas and christianity (for a grade). The other kids' parents told them to beat me up - more the cause than the symptom I imagine :)

[Denise]

Oh my! I got a 39.

[Mandrel]

35 here

[bdl]

Originally posted by Evil Jeff:
<STRONG>It was because my parents were suing the school over testing us over our knowledge of christmas and christianity (for a grade). The other kids' parents told them to beat me up - more the cause than the symptom I imagine :)</STRONG>

eep

[Evil Jeff]

It wasn't so bad. I had a computer and a modem and a few local BBSes to hang out on.

[Icarus]

This sounds more like another excuse to take the blame off of parents then anything meaningful. Geez, Bill Gates has social disorders? NO WAY! I would of never guessed! Hell, I AM A SOCIAL DISORDER! :D
And never really blame my parents for it, I was always an outcast from the rest of the kids...

[Frith]

Originally posted by mahdi:
<STRONG>This sounds more like another excuse to take the blame off of parents then anything meaningful. Geez, Bill Gates has social disorders? NO WAY! I would of never guessed! Hell, I AM A SOCIAL DISORDER! :D
And never really blame my parents for it, I was always an outcast from the rest of the kids...</STRONG>

I agree... despite being cursed with the ailment myself, most people I encounter seem to percieve me as being 'normal' (apparently, they don't consider my behaviour all that odd). Then again, I do tend to avoid social situations where I have to get physical with more than 3-4 people at a time...and people tend to think that's a little weird.

Being an outcast does have its' benefits, though... I find I spend less money on things like expensive brand name clothing, less money on popular cds that I don't really like, less money on girls who are just interested in sex and not me as a person, less money on a lot of crap that I don't need and never will. Of course, I did miss out on a lot of that 'essential' social interaction that most psychologists consider important to a child's development, but I don't really care...I've learned to live with it. For some reason or other, it doesn't really bother me so much when I realise that I am not a lemming, and I'm not blindly following new trends, and wasting buttloads of money on worthless trinkets and jewelry to show people that I belong to an 31337 clique or whatever the hell group is cool at the time. Unless someone can adaquately convince me that I gain more by being part of a group and losing my individuality, I will continue believing (perhaps mistakenly) that there is nothing wrong with the way I live.

Besides, if I didn't spend so much time on the computer and reading books, you guys wouldn't have me here giving y'all a hard time about everything...and that wouldn't be good, would it? :)

[Chris L.]

Y'all need to get out more. I am a computer programmer and run linux on 5 computers in my house and scored 12. I used to be very anti-social but I outgrew that in middle school.

I hate reading fiction and can't stand most science fiction. I am much more interested in advanced mathematics and physics. I love space exploration and astromony, but as far as I'm concerned, imagining an encounter with aliens in any form other than microbial in our solar system is just stupid.

If you belive in natural selection, then you know that the strongest survive. How in the world can y'all carry on your genes if you can't get up the nerve to carry on a conversation with the opposite sex?

That's my two cents.

[Denise]

It's not our fault, social situations make me nervous. I think different people make this world great. This world needs diversity if everyone thought alike we would have missed out on some great inventions. If everyone were like the social butterflys computers wouldn't be what they are today.

I scored very high on that test, so according to that I'm AS. I've always known I was a little different, it doesn't make me a bad person nor does it require me to change my ways to suit society's norm. Your idea of getting a life may be different from someone else's. I like being an individual, and I like who I am so I'm a little weird, that's what makes me who I am.

Have a great night, and a great weekend. I'll be here playing with Linux, and reading up on Solaris :cool:

[Frith]

Originally posted by Chris L.:
<STRONG>If you belive in natural selection, then you know that the strongest survive. How in the world can y'all carry on your genes if you can't get up the nerve to carry on a conversation with the opposite sex?

That's my two cents.</STRONG>

Huh? Just because some of us have AS, that doesn't mean we aren't capable of having personal relationships with people... some of us just don't do well in large groups. I've gotten along just fine with most of the girls I've dated, and I still write to a lot of them, even though we have gone our seperate ways (I'm sure even normal people break up now and then).

As for carrying on my genes, I perfectly intend to do that...as soon as I am capable of providing shelter for my wife and children, raising my children in a comfortable environment, and when I am able to put them through college. Until I reach that point, I will not seriously consider having children...end of story. :p

[linuxNohow]

Well I got a 14. I thought at first that this might apply to me but when I reflect I realize that I would definitely prefer to be part of a social group of some sort instead of being a loner. I try to find a companion in everything I do. I like linux so I try to find others who like linux. I like PC gaming so I go to LAN parties and play multiplayer almost exclusively over solo. Maybe someone should make a matchmaking service for people consider themselves "geeks" cause the normal matchmaking services are filled with those chics looking for the highschool jock types... Or at least it seems like it.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Denise:
<STRONG>I scored very high on that test, so according to that I'm AS. I've always known I was a little different, it doesn't make me a bad person nor does it require me to change my ways to suit society's norm. Your idea of getting a life may be different from someone else's. I like being an individual, and I like who I am so I'm a little weird, that's what makes me who I am.

Have a great night, and a great weekend. I'll be here playing with Linux, and reading up on Solaris :cool:</STRONG>

You know what I like about Asperger's? It's sometimes classified as Autism...and when people hear that, they automatically assume that you have an IQ of about 75...yay.

Anyhow, to those of you who are posting here saying that you scored low on the test, nothing here concerns you. Go away. Your ignorant comments are not welcome. Unless you have personally experienced what we have experienced, you have no right whatsoever to comment on anything we do or say.

BTW, I scored a 19 on that test... I'm *almost* normal...but not normal enough for my psychologist to consider me so.

Denise: what got you interested in Linux, btw? that's not exactly your typical 'girl' OS... :rolleyes:

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: frithiof ]

[Strike]

Got a 13. Remember people, meatspace can be fun too :)

[njcajun]

umm... I only scored a 14. I think I was sorta middle of the road -- but I was raised in a large family, so that makes it likely that I'm more at home in social situations.

So on one hand, I notice patterns a lot, license plate numbers and such, and I find it very easy to do things that require a strong imagination and stuff.

On the other hand, I'm very social and outgoing, and tend to be able to get along with just about anyone I meet.

I wonder if this has anything to do with my being left-handed?

[saulecker]

Originally posted by njcajun:
<STRONG>I wonder if this has anything to do with my being left-handed?</STRONG>


man, you are a freak!


:D

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Originally posted by frithiof:
<STRONG>Huh? Just because some of us have AS, that doesn't mean we aren't capable of having personal relationships with people... some of us just don't do well in large groups. I've gotten along just fine with most of the girls I've dated, and I still write to a lot of them, even though we have gone our seperate ways (I'm sure even normal people break up now and then).

As for carrying on my genes, I perfectly intend to do that...as soon as I am capable of providing shelter for my wife and children, raising my children in a comfortable environment, and when I am able to put them through college. Until I reach that point, I will not seriously consider having children...end of story. :p</STRONG>

I usualy do fine with 1 or 2 people. Anything over 4 people, and socializing becomes to much of a chore. At this point, I either leave, or find something to play with (hopefuly, a computer).

I have enough problems of my own, and I don't feel the need to polute the gene-pool any furthur (alergies, asthma, and a family history of brain problems). But children can be fun. But for now, I'll hold off on the little Beowulfs_Ghosts.

Originally posted by linuxNohow:
<STRONG>Maybe someone should make a matchmaking service for people consider themselves "geeks" cause the normal matchmaking services are filled with those chics looking for the highschool jock types... Or at least it seems like it.</STRONG>

I've actualy had that idea before. It seems that your average personals/matchmaking system is based on finding people who share your interest in dancing, camping, sports, or other group activities.

They always seem lacking in the all important catagories, like favorite RPG's, sci-fi conventions, ect. And ofcourse, find incompatabilities like "BSD init vs SysV init", "Mac vs PC", "Star Wars vs Star Trek", "D&D vs LARP", etc.

All I need is to rebuild my cluster, and get a good inet connection....

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Beowulfs_Ghost ]

[Evil Jeff]

IMHO I must say that most dating services are filled with about three girls who had a bad night or a bad hangover the next morning and the rest of em are people like us who don't socialize well - the pretty ones don't need help ;)

I can socialize well if I want. But that sort of thing just doesn't interest me. I like more personal contact than sitting and chatting with a group of more than a few people - with more than four, how can you actually get to know anyone? I am not antisocial, I just don't like big social groups. It's too much to pay attention to. I multitask like winduhs, I can do maybe two, three things at once tops. I tend to put everything into one thing at a time, so I do a good job, then move on to the next thing. I don't try to do too much at once.

But anyway, I'm rambling. No conclusion, that requires a point :)

[Denise]

What got me interested in Linux was the fact you can change the OS, I love the fact you can go down to the kernel level. I love tinkering with things, I trash picked a VCR when I was a teenager to see if I could fix it. My family was having a new years party and I didn't want to be uncomfortable so I fixed that VCR. I love puzzle type things. I'm not a typical girl either. It's been hard because its more acceptable for males to be this tech oriented. When you are a girl and you are like this it is extremly difficult. But hey I'll just take it as my dating pool is wider then other girls because of it. I'll probably end up with someone like me. Makes me happy!! I'm pretty! Or at least I've been told I am. Eventually I'll find that prince charming that is as weird as I am.

[MBMarduk]

Originally posted by njcajun:
<STRONG>I wonder if this has anything to do with my being left-handed?</STRONG>

Depends on what you use it for.

I got a 25 btw.

[MSD]

Wow, I only fot 19. And here is me thinking i am a geek. My g/f can eat her words now. I must be nearly normal!

[RTFM]

Darn, I only got a 39 :(

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

What's wrong Tired Man? Were you hoping to out geek me.

[Counterstrike]

31

[Frith]

Originally posted by Denise:
<STRONG>I'll probably end up with someone like me. Makes me happy!! I'm pretty! Or at least I've been told I am. Eventually I'll find that prince charming that is as weird as I am.</STRONG>

Hee. And how are you going to coerce them out of their shells? :p

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Denise;

I can't really tell if your pretty, the pic in your profile is broken.

Funny how you combine the attributes of "weird" and "prince charming". Maybe you should be looking out for a "prince weird".

----

After checking the other posts, it seems I'm the highest scoring one here (coming in at 40). Not to suprising I suppose. I did some various psycological testing in high school, and came out as randomly weird. I had the spelling of a 6th grader, and the writing ability of a graduate student, and no rhythm. The end result was, they didn't know what was wrong with me, but they suspected ADD. The reason being, I drank lots of Mt. Dew, and in effect, self-medicated myself. I turned down the Ritalin perscription.

[carlywarly]

16 - actually, I am surprised how many people here got relatively low scores.

I don't really see AS as a serious problem, depending on what career you choose.

IT could be the perfect environment for people with AS. In many ways, it could provide all their needs.

The big problem would be if someone goes into a seriously incompatible line of work - one where you actually have to be sensitive to non-verbal communication to do your job, for example.

I wonder if there is a direct link between distro used and AS score. It wouldn't surprise me.

Hi scores - Debian, Slack, Linux From Scratch etc ?

Low scores - Mandrake etc ?

[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: carlywarly ]

[evilcartman]

I got only 15 why I am social its not about your distro lol and I can beat you all in Calculus :D you bet!

[Strike]

Originally posted by Kernel_Compiler:
<STRONG>I got only 15 why I am social its not about your distro lol and I can beat you all in Calculus :D you bet!</STRONG>

I'll take that bet :) I'm sure if scanez were around, he would too (I've completed my math minor in college [including 4 calculus courses], and he's a math major) :)

[Denise]

I'm pretty good at it as well. 3 calc courses, diff eq, Linear Algebra. I think I could be a contender. :-)

[sasKuatch]

29, what's that mean?

[debiandude]

I just took that test. I dont really agree with it though. I got a 43, which is really high, but I don't have a hard time functioning in life. I dunno, it seems like its one of those made-up mental disorders, everyone wants some excuse for their "weird" behavior.

[toc]

38, but I try to be social. Math: Calc I, II, III, Diff eq., Linear Algebra I, Prob & Stats next semester.

[carlywarly]

I think that one of the side issues about Asperger's is that many of the people who have it don't realise that their behaviour appears odd, because they have very limited abilities to "read" clues from other people.
(try asking someone who is manic if they think they are manic...)

"Made up disorders"? Perhaps people are just essentially very complex and can therefore have a whole spectrum of behaviour/problems/disorders.

[EvilFly]

hm.. 31.... guess I'm not as autistic as i could be....

[evilcartman]

Originally posted by Denise:
<STRONG>I'm pretty good at it as well. 3 calc courses, diff eq, Linear Algebra. I think I could be a contender. :-)</STRONG>

Wohoho math masters all around! Good to see you! Lets take a Riemann Sum or calculate Maxwell Speed Distribution for the sake of physics! :)

[Derango]

I got a 28. I really, really, hate talking to people I don't know. Smalltalk is beyond me ;)

Most of all, I get anxious if I'm about to do somthing for the first time, espicaly if it might involve talking to people. I tend to get scared that I'll say the wrong thing and they'll laugh at me or somthing.

[chikn]

I got 14, what exactly does that mean now? :confused:

[Derango]

Originally posted by chikn:
<STRONG>I got 14, what exactly does that mean now? :confused:</STRONG>

It means you're almost normal ;)

[Rickdog]

A measly 27. I suppose next people will be calling me normal.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Derango:
<STRONG>I got a 28. I really, really, hate talking to people I don't know. Smalltalk is beyond me ;)

Most of all, I get anxious if I'm about to do somthing for the first time, espicaly if it might involve talking to people. I tend to get scared that I'll say the wrong thing and they'll laugh at me or somthing.</STRONG>

You wanna know what I do? Instead of doing lots of small talk, I try to get the person I'm talking to to talk about themselves. It doesn't always work, but when it does, you usually just end up making small comments on the things that they say and you don't really have to contribute much (this probably won't work too well on other AS people, unless you ask them about a specific subject that they know a lot about).

For some reason or other, I feel considerably more comfortable talking to girls than I do other guys... I dunno why. It's not such a bad thing, really; I'm sure there are worse things in life than having a bunch of female friends and no guy friends. :p

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Originally posted by frithiof:
<STRONG>You wanna know what I do? Instead of doing lots of small talk, I try to get the person I'm talking to to talk about themselves. It doesn't always work, but when it does, you usually just end up making small comments on the things that they say and you don't really have to contribute much (this probably won't work too well on other AS people, unless you ask them about a specific subject that they know a lot about). </STRONG>

This is something I've actualy been working on. It also makes it easier to remember people (I have a horrible memory for names and faces).

Or, you could try the "Six Rejections Game" (http://www.fictionsuits.com/archives/00000013.html)!

Simple rules. The idea is to get rejected 6 times in one year. Maybe that sounds bad. The idea isn't really to get rejected, but to get you to go out and actualy try to find a date. If they say 'yes', goodie for you. If they say no, it isn't a total loss, because you can add it to your rejection tally. The only real rule is that you can't ask some one you aren't generaly interested in, or some one that you know will flat-out reject you (married people, friends that know about the game, ect.).

It's up to you what goal you want to set (if you are more sociable, try 12 rejections in a year), and up to you what you count as "rejection". Rejection can range from a 'No' right off the bat, to a couple dates but no sex.

[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: Beowulfs_Ghost ]

[Frith]

I don't think I've ever been rejected, per se... it's usually the girl who asks me out on dates :p

On a relatively unrelated note, have you ever noticed your inhibitions going away when you've had a bit to drink? I've heard that the only 'drug' that actually cures our social anxiety is alcohol.

And to think I used to wonder why people became alcoholics...

[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: frithiof ]

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Alcohol does seem to "loosen" you up. But that just means I'll become more animated on my long monolouges about Unix system administration, or the "Tom Bombadil; Maia vs Valar" debate.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Beowulfs_Ghost:
<STRONG>Alcohol does seem to "loosen" you up. But that just means I'll become more animated on my long monolouges about Unix system administration, or the "Tom Bombadil; Maia vs Valar" debate.</STRONG>

http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/edoom/boxing_smiley.gif

now that's scary... I generally try to avoid talking about all the stuff I know because nobody could possibly be interested in any of it.

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Yes, I know, I'm a geek. I've devoted a seperate thread to how geeky I am.

[MSD]

Originally posted by Beowulfs_Ghost:
<STRONG>This is something I've actualy been working on. It also makes it easier to remember people (I have a horrible memory for names and faces).

Or, you could try the "Six Rejections Game" (http://www.fictionsuits.com/archives/00000013.html)!

Simple rules. The idea is to get rejected 6 times in one year. Maybe that sounds bad. The idea isn't really to get rejected, but to get you to go out and actualy try to find a date. If they say 'yes', goodie for you. If they say no, it isn't a total loss, because you can add it to your rejection tally. The only real rule is that you can't ask some one you aren't generaly interested in, or some one that you know will flat-out reject you (married people, friends that know about the game, ect.).

It's up to you what goal you want to set (if you are more sociable, try 12 rejections in a year), and up to you what you count as "rejection". Rejection can range from a 'No' right off the bat, to a couple dates but no sex.

[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: Beowulfs_Ghost ]</STRONG>


That actually sounds like fun!

[Syngin]

25 and I'm a lefty too.

Oh, wicked article btw. I've passed it on the quite a few ppl.

[ 02 January 2002: Message edited by: Syngin ]

[conjure]

I hate smalltalk. It is almost impossible for me to fake interest in something I am not interested in. That's why I don't like social interaction. Most of the time I don't feel like talking about the good price somebody got on the sweater they're wearing and I sure as hell don't feel like smiling like it's the most interesting thing I've heard all day. I have too much stuff on my mind all the time. I'm always trying to get into new stuff, and there is NEVER anyone around who shares my interests, or who would even have heard about the things I'm interested in.

[Frith]

Originally posted by conjure:
<STRONG>I'm always trying to get into new stuff, and there is NEVER anyone around who shares my interests, or who would even have heard about the things I'm interested in.</STRONG>

Well, there's always IRC...(I personally like to stay away from it because of the sheer number of AOLers and morons that like to stay stupid carp while hidden behind their terminals; it ceases to be enjoyable when people are continually fighting and backstabbing each other).

Don't feel too bad about all this, though...I'm sure one day you'll find that special someone who has the same interests that you do, whatever they are.

[Molecule Man]

29

I find it funny that most symptoms of Aspergers are can also be attributed to introverted personality types.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Molecule Man:
<STRONG>29

I find it funny that most symptoms of Aspergers are/can also be attributed to introverted personality types.</STRONG>

Well, being introverted in a society such as ours is clearly 'unnatural'. If you stick out in a crowd, you're going to get labelled sooner or later.

What I don't understand is why people automatically assume that because we are 'different', we are mentally weak (I can't be the only one here who has had someone come up to them in high school and be told to "kiss that girl"). I'm willing to bet that most folks with AS have IQs that are the same, if not higher than the average (I was cursed with a 117 IQ, and the knowledge that I am indeed very different from others). I suppose ignorance plays a large part in this, but I'm not quite sure...

I'm guessing it's part of our nature to destroy that which we do not understand.

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Originally posted by Frith:
<STRONG>Well, being introverted in a society such as ours is clearly 'unnatural'. If you stick out in a crowd, you're going to get labelled sooner or later.</STRONG>

I would go so far as to call society's view of introverts as being 'unnatural'. Most societies seem to tolerate (and at times revere) intorverted types, so long as the fit into that 'eccentric genius' personality.

Albert Einstein is a house hold name. He dressed like a slob, had bad hair, and often hismatched his socks. But that's okay, because he came up with "Relativity". Even though the general and special relativity are actualy _understood_ in very few households.

[carlywarly]

Actually, once he started working on relativity, Einstein stopped wearing socks.

I would also go as far as to suggest that few students understand either special or general relativity, not just the general population.

[TheMuso]

I came in here with a 4. I guess its all the music stuff I do, as that is my main career path, but love computers and tinkering. Thats why I love linux. Interesting article and test.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Beowulfs_Ghost:
<STRONG>I would go so far as to call society's view of introverts as being 'unnatural'. Most societies seem to tolerate (and at times revere) intorverted types, so long as the fit into that 'eccentric genius' personality.</STRONG>

I suppose that only takes effect after they prove that they are indeed 'eccentric geniuses', and not while they are in the process of getting to that point. And isn't the term 'genius' relative? In their times, I'm sure lots of people considered Hitler and Karl Marx geniuses, but now a lot of people don't consider them as such. Unless their works have an immediate impact on the world, how can you truly identify someone as a 'genius'?

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Genius is a relative term. Take the standard 'IQ' ratting as an example. If a 10 year old has an IQ of 150, he's only as smart as the average 15 year old. Our society doesn't consider the average 15 year old to very smart. But 150 is still a big number.

Some consider Marx to be a genius, and he certainly was ecsentric.

Hitler himself was a moron. He had a knack for motivating people, but his military stratagies were laughable.

But I guess that just goes back to what is considered 'genius'. In high school, I tested out with a 'genius' level writing ability, but horrible spelling. I can do all sorts of stuff with computers, but I can't tell if some one is hitting on me.

I guess I should revise my hypothesis. Society is often willing to over look one's social inadaquecies, so long as the skill or knowlege they poses is of a certain value.

Example; Poeple don't care that I have no fasion sense, because I can always fix there computer. In high school, the other kids stopped caring about my geekiness/weirdness as soon as I became a math/physics tutor. If I could help them pass there class, they wouldn't care if I had a 3rd eye growing out of my forehead.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Beowulfs_Ghost:
<STRONG>Hitler himself was a moron. He had a knack for motivating people, but his military stratagies were laughable.</STRONG>

Well, I certainly have to agree with you there (anyone who has read 'Mein Kampf' has to know that Hitler wasn't playing with a full deck). Despite his apparent failures as a person and a leader, even you have to admit that there are many people who look up to him as a sort of god and try to perpetuate some of his ideas. To them, he *is* a genius. To us, he's just another failed politician.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Beowulfs_Ghost:
<STRONG>Genius is a relative term. Take the standard 'IQ' ratting as an example. If a 10 year old has an IQ of 150, he's only as smart as the average 15 year old. Our society doesn't consider the average 15 year old to very smart. But 150 is still a big number.</STRONG>

I thought IQ partially represented your ability to absorb, interpret, and use new information...or something like that.

I'm willing to bet money that my social IQ is somewhere around 75. ;)

[Dru Lee Parsec]

As the uncle of a severly autistic nephew I want to toss in my opinion on the Wired article. We'll call my nephew "D".

My sister in law (D's mom) wasn't happy with the article because it glossed over a lot of good research in an attempt to make it's point about geeks with Asperger's syndrome.

The important points in that article were these:

Autism has gone from 1 in 20,000 to 1 in 500 in the country. 1 in 100 in California and 1 in 10 in parts of Silicon Valley. (these last two stats were alluded to but not quoted in the article) This tends to say that there is some trigger that is occuring more frequently now that didn't use to occur. Possibly an environmental trigger.

Autism overwhelmingly affects males. The actual percentage is around 90%+. This tends to say that there is something genetic that is passed on to males much in the same way that color blindness is a male only mutation.

Autism effects the children at about 18 months. D use to have excelent language skills for his age at 18 months. He then had his measles shot and within 2 weeks he lost all his language skills and has never been the same. There is overwhelming anticdotal evidence that there is something in the measles shot that, when combined with the genetic proclivity for AS, causes autism. There are quite a few autism web sites that feel that because mercury is used in the processing of this vaccine then mercury poisoning may be responsible for the onset of symptoms at 18 months.

To change from a rate of 1 in 20,000 to 1 in 500 is stunning. There is something out there that is doing this to our kids. Let me say that even clearer: THERE IS SOMBODY OUT THERE DOING THIS TO OUR KIDS

Some environmental trigger, some childhood vaccination, SOMETHING is causing this to occur WAY to often. This is not just a case of geeks getting married and passing on their "smart gene". There is something nefarious and dangerous out there that is hurting way too many children.

My fear is that it's the drug companies who make the measles vaccine. What chance does a family who is already strapped for time and money because of all the special needs their children require have against the lawyers of a pharmacutical company?
Not much of a chance, not much at all.

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

There are alot of people that are worshipped as gods on Earth. But not all of them are wroshiped as "mental giants". Super models are a good example. But like I said, genius is a relative term. I've had friends call me a genius, simply because I could do a relatively average task, that they couldn't do.

The original 'IQ' was basicaly; (mental age / physical age) * 100. So a 10 year old with a 15 year old's education would be said to have an IQ of 150.

As far as I know, that sort of IQ test has been phased out of use as a diagnostic tool. The idea that you can apply 'one number' to one's intellegence is now left to the realm of 'fun' tests on the internet.

I've had similar tests that ranked me by area of knowlege, and what grade it would corispond to. When I mentioned above that I had horrible spelling, I tested as having the spelling of a 6th grader. My writing ability was that of a 16.75 grader (college graduate). And this was my junior year of high school.

I've done a couple big psycological tests. They usualy take a couple days. I did everything from write essays, to various math problems, to arrange colored blocks. They also tested me to see if I had rhythym, and I didn't.

And when all is said and done, you get several pages of stuff back, saying how you did in each area, and various opinions from the doctors. There is no one thing you can point at, and say with confidance "he's a genius". We all have are strengths and weaknesses. If they were to have averaged out everything, I probably would have come out as average. My spelling would have cancled out my writing.


Dru;

The whole MMR thing has been gone over by many people. Most of the evedence is anecdotal. Autism happen to set in at around age 2, and they happened to get there MMR at age 2.

At best, all that can be said is that there may be a link via an allergic type reaction. But given all the other possible environmental factors, compounded with all the changes to one's brain during early developement, no one can say anything for certain.

Another theory on autism, is that it is basicaly a severely 'male' brain. Males typicaly don't devote as much of there brain to human interaction as women do. This has been shown with MRI scans. When you do an MRI on some one with severe autism, that part that deal with human interaction doesn't work at all. The 'overly male' brain idea would explain why more males seem to have autism. It's easier to push an already male brian furthur, then it is to push a female brain to that extreme.

The change in the ratio of autistic people can also be explained by the change to "Autism _Spectrum_ Disorder", and more wide spread psycological testing. If you are only talking about people with low-functioning autism, then there aren't that many. If you are talking about any one on the spectrum, then there could be quite a few. Simple fact is, the diagnostic criteria for autism has changed, and has actualy become broader.

I would agree that the article is fairly 'geek' oriented. But it's from Wired, so there is a certain bias to be expected.

[Frith]

Originally posted by Beowulfs_Ghost:
<STRONG>And when all is said and done, you get several pages of stuff back, saying how you did in each area, and various opinions from the doctors. There is no one thing you can point at, and say with confidance "he's a genius". We all have are strengths and weaknesses. If they were to have averaged out everything, I probably would have come out as average. My spelling would have cancled out my writing.</STRONG>

I'm sure that the same could be said about me, too. I excel in some areas, such as in writing, spelling, reading comprehension, and other related things (my most recent tests suggested a college level education), but I really suck when it comes to motor coordination, handling very small objects, and math. I suppose if you averaged it all out, I'd be quite average as well.

I get the feeling that these IQ tests aren't all that useful, since they only seem to measure your aptitudes in certain academic areas and don't really reflect on your intelligence in general. (Then again, getting high numbers does give you boasting rights, doesn't it? Haha...)

[ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: Frith ]

[Dru Lee Parsec]

The change in the ratio of autistic people can also be explained by the change to "Autism _Spectrum_ Disorder", and more wide spread psycological testing.

But even the Wired article says that to blame this rise on new diagnostic procedures is spurious. The increase in the number of autistic children is WAY to high to be blamed on better diagnostics.

The whole MMR thing has been gone over by many people. Most of the evidence is anecdotal.

Unfortunatly it's ALL anecdotal. If it was hard evidence then we'd have a solution to at least one part of the problem.

B-G you make some good points. Autism is very likely a combination of genetic and environmental triggers that start this terrible sequence of events. It's quite possible that there are many people who have the genetic trigger but never received the environmental trigger.

But don't you find it odd and/or interesting that people don't suddenly become autistic at the age of 20? or 30? It happens when they are 18 to 24 months old. What is it about the development of the human brain at that point that can trigger this terrible chemical and developmental breakdown? Since we can't (as of yet) point to a specific aspect of development that occurs from 18 to 24 months (and at no other time in the person's development) we must look outside the body. Is there something that occurs at that time period in America that is fairly universal. The MMR vaccinations fit the bill.

Just because the gun is smoking doesn't make it the murder weapon. But until we find that 2nd trigger (the genetic proclivity being the first) we have to look at environmental causes.

BTW, I'm not flaming Beowolf-Ghost or anyone else on this thread. I'm actually happy to be talking about something that has become a difficult problem in our family. B-G makes some very good points.

Also BTW, I make my living writing code and I scored right down the middle with a test score of 25. Don't know if that means anything or not. Probably just means I'm a normal guy.

[Frith]

I wonder what would happen if it was found out that the MMR vaccinations were partially responsible for triggering autism.

I'm a victim, too...

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Dru:

Actualy, alot of stuff happens in the brain from birth on up. And autism isn't unique in that it set in at a certain time. Schizophrenia typicaly sets in around young adulthood (16-25). You'll be a totaly normal person, graduate high school, and then the next thing you know, you're hearing voices. I knew a guy in high school that just came down with that, right out of the blue.

And I mentioned 2 things that could bring about the higher numbers. One, of course, is better and more wide spread diagnostics. The other, is the change in the defention of autism. It has gone from being exclusively low-functioning autism, to being broad enough to include seeming 'normal' people like Frith and I. 30 or 40 years ago, the only thing a doctor may have diagnosed me as is being an introvert, and some what ecsentric. Today, I've already been lable as having ADD, or a PDD, or AS/high-functioning autism.

So not only are we doing better testing, but we've made it easier to get diagnosed with one or another syndrome. At this rate, being diagnosed as 'normal' will be a 1 in 10,000 thing.

MMR does seem to be almost to coincidental.

But some things to think about. First off, what does one consider to be 'autism'. Right now, it ranges from seemingly normal people, like the ones on this board, to 'low functioning' people who can't even do so much as talk.

If you are blaming mercury, then what you may be really dealing with is brian damage brought on by heavy metal poisening. In which case, autism isn't so much the root problem, as it's just more pronounced by the real disorder, brain damage from heavy metals. If this were the case, the mercury in MMR could also be liked to other neurological problems. Not necessarily the _cause_ of the problem, but as an agent that may _amplify_ something like autism.


Frith;

But there is no accurate way to generate one number intelegence levels. Simply labling me as having an IQ of 125 doesn't explain why I do so bad at spelling. nor does it really say anything else. It's just as arbitrary as a shoe size. In which case, you could simply use your shoe size as a measure of 'greatness'.

Since we all have strengths and weaknesses, it only makes sense to grade each area individualy. The tests I took were for my high school. They couldn't figure out why I seemed to bright, but got such horrible grades.

And these 'academic' tests do provide a gauge of intellegence. by breaking everything down, and looking at the big picture, you can get an idea of what type of stuff one's brain is very good at working with.

[nuvan]

15, i guess i'm just an average Joe.

[vee-eye]

I scored a 9, although if I had thought hard about the questions and answered with perfect honesty, I probably would have scored a 25.

Yes, I used to be very anti-social years ago because I didn't care to be with people. That's perfectly fine. Some people need to be with friends constantly while others can live long, happy lives by themselves (or with their families).

[x_Ray]

I got a 24. Guess I'm somewhere in between or something. Makes sense sorta I guess, many times I prefer to be alone working on my own interests, but other times I can be very social.

[arashi]

I got 11. Smart enough to know I'm average, too average to do anytihng about it. :p Hang on, do I <want> to do anything about it? When I was 8 I was offered a place in one of those accelerated learning schools for "gifted" children, but my parents turned down the offer because they wanted me to grow up "normally". So I wasted my teens at an all girls high school surrounded by bimbos like that ***** trio in 'Heathers' (anyone remember that movie?). How normal! Even now, I'm still not sure if I should be happy or pissed off at my parents' decision.

[Odin]

Scored a 25. I found that I could go either way on a lot of the questions. I used to be a VERY social person but in the past few years I found myself not wanting to be around most people. Perhaps it's because I don't party much anymore. Perhaps it's because I started to really listen to people and what they have to say. Perhaps it's because most conversation is casual BS and the people I am around have nothing to say that's worth listening to. Who knows? Perhaps it's me.

[z911]

scored a nice 17. it basically confirms to me that i have a well balanced life. :cool:

[Arcane_Disciple]

10 :(

[z911]

Originally posted by Arcane_Disciple
10 :(

I feel your pain... :p

[Dun'kalis]

I got a 22. I guess that seems right, I like being alone, but can be social at times. Its probably some doctors interpreting geekdom/nerdiness as autism, since geeks are actually very social, but we don't like the status quo.

[jetblackz]

I got an 8. What gives?!?! As much as I love computers & Linux, BTW, I'm a programmer, I'd drop everything I'm doing at the computer and go hang out with friends.

I used to be anti-social when I was at college. What do you know? 18 credits a week. 15 would be too much, let alone 18. Student organisations, extracurricular activities, parties, dine-outs, holidays, and stuff changed me a lot.

The online test is flawed. If only shows your score AT the time you take it. How about you get an oversea gig and have to work with 30-something people starting next month?

[11000]

28. I kinda expected it to be a teensy bit higher, but I'm terrible with numbers. I can't remember how to do basic algebra half the time(I got A's in algebra in college). I just can't remember anything with numbers. I can barely remember my own phone number. :p

That and I'm only mildly anti-social. Was very anti-social in high school, but in college I was surrounded by other computer geeks all the time, so I became much more social. I'm still not to big on small talk and can get nervous in certian social situations, or new situations. But that doesn't stop me from world travel by myself, etc. I guess I'm a bunch of contradictions.

Once took a general aptitude test, scored rather low in math(no suprise), but scored off the charts in spatial aptitude(basically higher then 120% of the population). So I'm obviously a freak! :D

[11000]

Originally posted by Denise
I'm not a typical girl either. It's been hard because its more acceptable for males to be this tech oriented. When you are a girl and you are like this it is extremly difficult. But hey I'll just take it as my dating pool is wider then other girls because of it. I'll probably end up with someone like me. Makes me happy!! I'm pretty! Or at least I've been told I am. Eventually I'll find that prince charming that is as weird as I am.

Yeah, it's not the easiest thing in the world, when all your female friends are discussing the latest gossip, and you're mentally redesigning you database frontend. :D Or then there's the fact that a lot of my male friends are not computer geeks, and they seem to think I'm smarter then them, etc. So they get intimidated by me. Even though I almost never talk about computers around non-computer people.

[Frith]

Originally posted by 11000


Yeah, it's not the easiest thing in the world, when all your female friends are discussing the latest gossip, and you're mentally redesigning you database frontend. :D Or then there's the fact that a lot of my male friends are not computer geeks, and they seem to think I'm smarter then them, etc. So they get intimidated by me. Even though I almost never talk about computers around non-computer people.

I personally think that women who are smarter than men are evil.

In the story of Adam and Eve, you'll recall that both of them were warned by God to not eat the forbidden fruit, but Eve, thinking that she knew what was best, consumed the fruit. After eating the fruit, she became very intelligent and smart. She then tricked Adam into eating it.

Eve was unrepentant when questioned by the Lord (about the fruit), and she tried to blame a snake and Adam for her own faults; God became incensed by her attempts to lie to Him, so He kicked both Eve and her lover out of His Garden.

The moral of the story is that the pursuit of intellectual knowledge, especially by women, is the root of all evil.

[11000]

Originally posted by Frith


I personally think that women who are smarter than men are evil.

In the story of Adam and Eve, you'll recall that both of them were warned by God to not eat the forbidden fruit, but Eve, thinking that she knew what was best, consumed the fruit. After eating the fruit, she became very intelligent and smart. She then tricked Adam into eating it.

Eve was unrepentant when questioned by the Lord (about the fruit), and she tried to blame a snake and Adam for her own faults; God became incensed by her attempts to lie to Him, so He kicked both Eve and her lover out of His Garden.

The moral of the story is that the pursuit of intellectual knowledge, especially by women, is the root of all evil.

Actually, it was just the opposite. Adam didn't like it that Eve was smart, so he never let her make any decisions, and got jealous if she knew something he didn't. She got sick of it, and she decided to plunge the entire human race into judgement just to get even with him! :D

So the moral of the story is: I'm always right, and everybody else is always wrong.... Or something like that...

[pcghost]

DOH! 35, damn those socialization questions..

[Frith]

Hrm...after retaking the test, I somehow managed to score a 17...almost average, and 2 points lower than what I had whenever it was that I first took it.

I don't wanna be normal... :(

[e_mpika]

i got 24, almost normal. hmmmm odd.
i just hate most people for being the suckers they are! im very anti social at the moment, 2 of my best freinds are still at uni in london for the summer, my other best mate has just got a new girl (no chance of seeing him for a while) and my girl is on holiday. other than that i really wouldnt want to see most people i know in my town. they suck!
:D

[satchmodian]

Originally posted by Chris L.
Y'all need to get out more. I am a computer programmer and run linux on 5 computers in my house and scored 12. I used to be very anti-social but I outgrew that in middle school.

I hate reading fiction and can't stand most science fiction. I am much more interested in advanced mathematics and physics. I love space exploration and astromony, but as far as I'm concerned, imagining an encounter with aliens in any form other than microbial in our solar system is just stupid.

If you belive in natural selection, then you know that the strongest survive. How in the world can y'all carry on your genes if you can't get up the nerve to carry on a conversation with the opposite sex?

That's my two cents.

I am the same way (I am an aspiring physicist). I scored 17. And a lot of those questions were ambiguous. Like, can you do many things at the same time. Well, I never tried playing the saxophone while swinging a golf club, but I imagine it would be hard.

[riffic]

Originally posted by Dru Lee Parsec

There is something nefarious and dangerous out there that is hurting way too many children. before you start spreading neurotypical fear, uncertainty, and doubt about aspergers or the autism spectrum, read this here: http://home.att.net/~ascaris1/evil.html

neurodiversity is a good thing.

[williamwbishop]

33, I didn't read the scoring. What does that make me? Whatever it is, I feel a lot better than if I had scored in the high 30's, as apparently the higher the worse and some of you have some pretty high scores. I never put any faith in online scoring anyway, it's always wrong.