Hello there, I am a Newbie.

[ghmitch]

First off, let me say that this was a fascinating article. When I first saw it linked in Linux today, my first reaction was to be quite defensive. However when I read through the article, I came to really appreciate the author's frankness and boldness in simply sharing his frustrations in dealing with those 'loose ends' and 'gotchas' that are faced by folks who have no concept (nor should they be required to have) of whats going on 'under the hood'. So thanks John for a very well done article!

I do wish to comment on several of his points.

Re: "As of this morning, I have not been able to *ever* successfully install a USEABLE Linux system."

I suspect that these 'attempts' involved setting up a 'dual boot' situation. I am a 'geek' myself and very honestly, I hate and do not use dual boot configurations. The last thing I would do is recommend them to newbies. They, in fact, complicate every other aspect of using the computer. My recommendation (if you have a free 5 1/4" bay) is to go out and buy a new 20GB hard drive ($100) and a removable cartridge system ($60) and simply swap hard drives to go from Windows to Linux. It involves a bit of extra expense, but takes a lot of mystery out of both install and operation. I have never had a problem installing Mandrake on a clean drive ASSUMING the hardware is compatible.

Re: If the code can be cut to setup the primary install requirements, why can't it be set up so that I can simply download a program and install it exactly as the Primary Install does it? "Select the Package you want and click here".

It exists under both Gnome and KDE. Under KDE its called KPackage and it is very user friendly - 100% point and click. I personally recommend KDE for the newbie. It is default under Mandrake, but not Red Hat.

Re: Sound, printer, modem, monitor, etc.

Mandrake is worse than Red Hat right now as far as configuration issues go. That is in fact because Mandrake is having to abandon a number of existing configuration tools in order to make configuration more user friendly. The new tools are not yet fully developed and thus their are still problems. Sorry about this one John, but we are all working hard on it and its going to get much better soon. Believe me, I am using some of those new configuration tools and they are, if anything, BETTER than Windows.

Re: KDE 2.0 issues.

KDE 2.0 is just 'out the door'. It is a complete 'rewrite' of KDE and is the buggiest KDE product I have ever seen. The KDE team is working hard to fix the problems and we should see LOTS of improvement soon. Here again, part of the problems you are experiencing are ironically a direct result of efforts toward major improvements.

Re: Application installs.

I have in fact recently installed Star Office, Word Perfect, and Railroad Tycoon, without having to ever see the command line. Just point and click. Strangely, the instructions in all these cases directed me to use the command line. (The guy who wrote the document must have had that 'geek' mentality.) Another irony, since I myself am a geek, I knew I could accomplish the same thing with point and click, whereas a newbie would be stuck with the command line. Shame, shame!

Re: Support.

We know that this is an issue as well and Mandrake for one is working on it. However, it all takes time, and Linux on the desktop is still a very new concept. Thanks again for your input, but please bear with us.

Disclaimer:

Although I use and advocate Mandrake (due to its user friendliness and determination to innovate in that direction, I want to make it clear that I am not formally affiliated with Mandrake in any way in case anyone might be wondering.

[Sterling]

Most of these packaging issues the author complains about are, in my experience, a side-effect of Red Hat based distros. Debian DOES let you install packages after install using the same program you do during install.

Linux is a very different system from Windows - don't expect it to work exactly the same. Although there are many things that can be done to make the interface more comfortable for long-time Windows users.

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-Sterling
-This post made with the Lizard! (http://www.mozilla.org)

[SCuSI]

I've been a very loyal Mandrake user for a while. They WERE a very good newbie linux distro. If the reason for the incredible amount of installation and using problems is because of the rewrite of cutting edge configuration utilities well to me that is totally unacceptable. Mandrake up until this point has built a good name as an easy-to-install distro. Many people freely recommend Mandrake to those wishing to give linux a try. This is based on their reputation that they have a solid product that is user friendly. What happened? Was it a rush to get their product on the shelves? Be the first to showcase KDE2 and XFree 4.0? What ever reason, they duped me out of my hard earned money by selling me LemonLinux 2000 instead of my Mandrake X.x that I had grown to trust. If their configuration utilities are in still in their Beta stage than they should be in 7.3 Beta. Or actually 7.2 should be in its beta form. I downloaded each and every one of their beta's and expected their 7.2 release to be those new programs in their polished, ready for release form. I hope that there aren't to many people that try Linux for the first time and get a bad taste in their mouth. Linux is a community project that we all have our part to play in it. It is irresponsible and selfish to release a non-beta product for sale to the public that doesn't work consistently. KDE2 works fine in Suse 7, and although YAST2 (adminstrative tool) doesn't always work well, the tried and true YAST1 is easily accessible and thats the way that it should be. Don't put incomplete configuration utilities there as the first means of tuning your system.
Well thats just my opinion.

[a2o917]

Linux is very complicated for a first time user who just wants to get away from Bill and MS. Redmond Linux is a distro being developed by a Linux guy who wants to make life simpler for these people. It is sopost to be able to hide the command line and let the users use KDE. The developer says that he wants people like his wife and mother to feel comfortable using it. tho it is TOO simple for me I can see if it turns out good recomending it for new users.

[ghmitch]

Originally posted by SCuSI:
I've been a very loyal Mandrake user for a while. They WERE a very good newbie linux distro. If the reason for the incredible amount of installation and using problems is because of the rewrite of cutting edge configuration utilities well to me that is totally unacceptable.

As for Mandrake being a very good newbie Linux distro, I am not sure I would agree 100%. I believe it is in fact a very good distro for a technical newbie OR a non-technical newbie with some onsite assistance. There is simply no way I would forgo the power of Mandrake 7.2. I also believe that through all of this Mandrake will end up leader of the pack on the desktop. Mandrake 7.1 was very stable and I recommend the faint of heart stay with it. 7.2 brought major changes in terms of KDE, XFree and configuration (CUPS, USB, etc.). The next release whatever that is, will be another major change in terms of libraries and the new 2.4 kernel. After that I think that things will begin to settle down somewhat. If you want something very conservative and stable for a non-technical newbie, go for Corel 2.0 or Caldera. I did an install of Corel 1.0 and I did not have to touch the thing from the time I inserted the CD Rom till the time it was loaded and when down for the initial boot. Very impressive, but none of the advanced features of Mandrake (Journaling FS, USB support, etc.) And a non technical user should not be dual booting or partitioning.

As far as SuSE is concerned, I really don't believe that KDE 2.0 is any more finished and stable there than it is in Mandrake. I don't think I would recommend SuSE for a non-technical user. It has its own merits, but is fairly complex to install and configure.

[SCuSI]

It probably will take a few more releases before stability comes back to Mandrake. I usually like to support their efforts by buying their boxed product but I will be sure to download the next production releases before I reward their efforts with patronage. Lets just hope that 7.1 doesn't go down as their greatest accomplishment. BTW, I would definetly recommend Caldera to a newbie.

[Frizzle Fry]

With regards to the first post on this subject, I have to disagree with the concept of switching hard drives. If there is one thing mroe intimidating to most inexperienced computer users than a command line, it's opening up their computer and switching hardware around. Swapping drives involves dealing with ide cables and power cables, setting jumpers for if it's a master or slave drive etc. Not something a newbie will deal with well.

[MkIII_Supra]

A friend was watching me build another Linux machine for another friend, and he asked me a question that I could not answer. And it's a question I have asked myself but never bothered to post here. So now I shall because I am really curious....

I use `Drake, I have been for a year and a half now. Unitil 7.2 I have been exstatic. 7.2 is a disappointment but that is niether here nor there right now. As I was installing the system, my friend was very impressed with how fast I could set-up partitions and format them in `Drake 7.2. Then came the time to select installation size and packages. I selected 45% because all the owner wanted was a simple install for e-mail, office products and one or two games. The question posed is how does Linux or `Drake know what to install based off of the %age / size selected? I realize I can do individual package selection but how does `Drake know what package to install / not-install based on size?

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The Dragon is swift and powerful. Beware his wrath...
Honor your family and yourself. Speak not out of passion but out of wisdom and temper the fires of war that reside in you, and you shall then reach your full measure as a man of Honor, Courage and Integrity.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/MkIIISupra/ (http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/MkIIISupra)

[ghmitch]

Originally posted by Frizzle Fry:
With regards to the first post on this subject, I have to disagree with the concept of switching hard drives. If there is one thing mroe intimidating to most inexperienced computer users than a command line, it's opening up their computer and switching hardware around. Swapping drives involves dealing with ide cables and power cables, setting jumpers for if it's a master or slave drive etc. Not something a newbie will deal with well.

Absolutely correct, but if you reread my orignal post, you will discover that I am referring to removable hard drive cartridges. These are external IDE units and can be pulled and swapped without ever touching cables, jumpers, or the hard drives themselves. I have about six of them lying around that I have being pulling in and out for over a year without incident. Anybody who can use a floppy can use one.