Now I know why people choose Windows

[Indy]

I not a new user of Linux, but a fustrated one. Don't get me wrong I think Linux has got real potential, but if only they could make installing (and unistalling)Software easier.

I have been try for a Week to compile Kleandisk, but can I? Hell NO!

I really want to get everything in place so I can have a real good stable Linux setup, especially when you hear the XP will have to be registered everytime you want to install it.

Could someone please help me out in understanding the basics of installing and un-installing.

Thanks
Indy :(

[undef]

actually it's easier to install software on linux than windows.
observer:
apt-get install kde2 (for debian users)
urpmi --auto kde2 (rpm based distro)

of coarse you can always do it the old fashion way by compiling from source which is a pain sometimes.

[bdg1983]

What kind of package are you trying to install?

rpm
deb
tar
tar.gz

There is a NHF on Compiling Software that will help explain tar and tar.gz packages.

[Indy]

It's not so much what type of package it is, but more to do with the errors that are generated.

The package that I'm currently trying to compile is Kleandisk v1.2 (apparantly 2.0 has bugs and is not recommended). I can get up "./configure" and then when I try "make", it goes through and at the end gives me "Error 1".
BTW, I'm using GCC v2.96(is this version good, because I read somewhere this contains bugs)

I found an RPM version of the Kleandisk program, which I tried to install. Nearly got there but had a dependency problem. It could'nt find "libmng.so.0". So I though OK lets look for this file shouldn't be difficult....
..boy did I under estimate or what..

These are the sorts of things that more or less put me off. Don't get me wrong, I think Linux is cool (have not had a single crash yet!) But I think the dependency thing needs to be looked at..It's a bit like if a Windows .dll file is missing, you can find them pretty easy and off you go.

Indy

[Choozo]

A search on http://www.rpmfind.net came up with 14 packages for the libmng.so.0.

[mrBen]

I don't think anyone here would object to anyone _choosing_ windows. Problem is that for 95% of users at the moment don't _choose_, but are forced.

/me stops ranting and heads back on topic

Sorry you're having problems installing new stuff. Personally I am extremely impressed with Debian's apt-get stuff. However, compiling from source can be a source of frustration, I agree, but there are distinct advantages over the Windows 'executables only' method.

Hope you persevere.

[posterboy]

Lots of folks use www.rpmfind.net, (http://www.rpmfind.net,) but never scroll down for the dependencies. With each package, further down the page, there is a list of what it's going to need, and just a click takes you to where you can get it. It's been my experience that this gets to be less and less of a problem as a system matures, as you are more likely to HAVE what's needed as the box ages. Now, Ximian has Red-Carpet, which is really, really, painless, as it goes and gets the stuff you need on the fly, but they are about to go commercial, and that may be a turn off for many of us. It also won't work with the newer rpm's, but they will soon have to fix that, of course. HTH, Ray

[Molecule Man]

Compilation will usually fail when you are missing some dependancy. www.rpmfind.net (http://www.rpmfind.net) or the mirror: http://rpmfind.net should be able to find the rpm with the missing dependacy.

[bdg1983]

Whoever told you Unix/Linux was easy is wrong. ;)

You have to remember what Linux is based on. If you started out using Linux and then decided to try Windows for the first time, you would probably have the same problem with not understanding how Windows worked. Not that it's that difficult. Windows to me is a TOY os compared to the *nix family.

Anyways, have a read of these. One I already suggested in my earlier post.
http://www.linuxnewbie.org/nhf/intel/compiling/softinstall.html
http://www.linuxnewbie.org/nhf/intel/software/rpmdependency.html

[Indy]

Firstly, I never assumed Linux is easy. On the other hand I don't think it's difficult either. It's just like any other subject, once you know it, it all becomes easy.

My argument (a bit of a strong word..I know) is when software is released it should be accomponied by all the relavent bits..

One good thing I like about the way Linux installs things is it tells you when you have a copy of xxxx.so.1 already installed. Nothing wrong with that.

BTW, because Windows is consider as a "toy" compared to Linux, this I think justifies it's success. However, the reason for me migrating to Linux is as I've said before - I'm not calling M$ everytime I want to re-install WinXP.

I think instead of us (as a Linux community) debating and slagging each other off. We should concentrate on making Linux a kick-*** of a platform. I appreciate the problems that programmers have when designing and implementing software. Hell..I'm a programmer myself and I couldn't stand individuals emailing me with silly/common Linux problems. The one thing we can learn from M$ besides how not to make an OS, is make an OS so easy they'll just love using.

I myself don't mind compiling a document that has actual problems suffered by users along with their solutions. If you all think this is a good idea let me know. I will publish a set of questions that I personally have had and see what response I get.

Indy
:)

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

You know, even when you compile a package, there is usually a file labelled INSTALL that gives you the lowdown on what packages you need, as well as what packages are going to be installed-- usually, they even include the paths in case you need to delete them manually...

[bdg1983]

I think we all agree that the Linux software package installations could use some work. Yes yes I know... the Debian apt-get.

Linux must have more libraries and versions of libraries than MS has dll's. I guess the problem stems from too many distros, too many distro versions and too many versions of everything. Sometimes it's easier to just upgrade your particular distro than trying to fulfill the library dependencies when attempting to install software.


I myself don't mind compiling a document that has actual problems suffered by users along with their solutions. If you all think this is a good idea let me know. I will publish a set of questions that I personally have had and see what response I get.

Good idea.

[Joeri Sebrechts]

Originally posted by Logon Name Gone:
<STRONG>I think we all agree that the Linux software package installations could use some work. Yes yes I know... the Debian apt-get.</STRONG>

If you know, then why do you still think linux package management needs work? It's like cutting your lawn with a pair of scissors and being pointed to where you can get the instructions on how to build a high-tech top-of-the-line lawnmower for free and then still complaining there's no better way to cut your lawn than to use scissors. Debian has shown how package management can be done right (anyone who disagrees, tell me why), it's up to the other distro's to adopt debian's example (as they're slowly doing). Too bad you still have to build that great lawnmower yourself, instead of getting it ready-made, like that pair of scissors. ;)

And if anyone's wondering, windows package management to me always felt like cutting your lawn with nailclippers :)

[bdg1983]

Originally posted by Joeri Sebrechts:
<STRONG>If you know, then why do you still think linux package management needs work? It's like cutting your lawn with a pair of scissors and being pointed to where you can get the instructions on how to build a high-tech top-of-the-line lawnmower for free and then still complaining there's no better way to cut your lawn than to use scissors. Debian has shown how package management can be done right (anyone who disagrees, tell me why), it's up to the other distro's to adopt debian's example (as they're slowly doing). Too bad you still have to build that great lawnmower yourself, instead of getting it ready-made, like that pair of scissors. ;)

And if anyone's wondering, windows package management to me always felt like cutting your lawn with nailclippers :)</STRONG>

I don't use Debian as I prefer Caldera and am not familiar with the workings of apt-get. Only what I have read here.

Personally I do not have any problems compiling and installing any kind of package. If there are dependencies, then I install those and continue on. No big deal for me. But some do not seem to like this.

[Joeri Sebrechts]

Originally posted by Logon Name Gone:
<STRONG>If there are dependencies, then I install those and continue on. No big deal for me. But some do not seem to like this.</STRONG>

It just depends on what you want. Every distro has it's advantages. Debian is definitely one of the most difficult distro's to get up and running. But you only do it once. After that upgrading and installing software goes incredibly smooth.

The way apt-get works is that dependancies are worked out for you. If I install a fresh console system, and I tell it to install konqueror, it will install xfree, qt, and the kde libraries for me, in addition to konqueror. It will also configure these while installing them, and ask me the right questions when it can't do something automatically. (It can actually be tuned how much questions it asks) It will on top of that warn me about things I should know, like how for safety reasons in the xfree 4 packages it's no longer configured to listen on tcp, and if I want this I need to remove the -nolisten tcp argument in my xserverrc file.
Also, when a new version of debian is released, what I need to do to upgrade is first type 'apt-get update' to get the latest database of packages, and then 'apt-get dist-upgrade' to install and upgrade the new system, removing old and unneeded packages in the progress. It will convert existing configuration files if possible, and warn me otherwise.

But, that's not even the best aspect of debian. The best aspect is the way that all packages are not only maintained outside of the debian project, but also inside of it. This means that everything looks and feels the same, down to the package level. There are policy rules for where files need to end up, and it is actually a rule that every file executable from the shell has a man page. Not that other distro's don't have these policies, it's just that other distro's are far smaller than debian. Often when you need to install a 3rd party app you can't go to the ftp server of your distro and obtain the app, you need to go to the website of the app itself, or go to rpmfind.net. As a consequence, things don't work as well together in other distro's as they do in debian.

That is why package management rules in debian.

To me not having to mess with dependancies is a gift straight from God, and I'm willing to invest some time setting up the system for it that I would save if I used another distro.