Well, I reached my breaking point last night. I have installed Mandrake 8.0, which I bought and was led to believe I could upgrade it to the lastest Mandrake version 8.2. When I learned that the only way to upgrade Mandrake was via an updated CD it annoyed me. Why no upgrade-only download?
So, after some looking around at the other distributions, I decided just to stick with Mandrake until I learned Linux better.
I started with the Gnome desktop, but there were lots of very obvious bugs, some crashes, and it was much slower than my XP desktop. So I switched to KDE and was much happier with that -- it seemed smoother, had more user friendly features.
** That brings up a good point about the Linux users I've come across. You all seem to shun user-friendliness. I offer the following example:
Lets say as a job you painstaking stack rocks on top of each other, and it takes you about 8 hours a day to stack them. One day you write a program that stacks the rocks for you! It lines them up and does it in half the time! A Windows user would welcome the program -- a Linux user would ignore it and continue to stack the rocks manually.
WHY? User friendliness is there to make your work easier and more productive. It doesn't make you any less of a man (or woman for that matter) to use it.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand, KDE.
As an excersise, I decided I'd try to install the latest version KDE 3.0. This is where owning Linux sucks ***...
Installing new programs, RPMs, and dependencies.
Let me start by saying that the Mandrake packaged RPM manager thing is absolutely CHOCK full of bugs and barely works. Nice episode in frustration trying to get that POS to work. Next, the Gnome? version didn't even function for me. So finally I tried the KDE RPM manager, and it actually worked.. sorta.
I figured out how to set different FTP sites as my source for RPMs, and downloaded upgrades to some of my programs... but lo and behold! EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN PACKAGE DEPENDS ON SOMETHING ELSE BEING INSTALLED AND *USUALLY* THE ORIGINATOR OF THE PROGRAM MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF WHAT THE HELL IT IS.
Why should I have to search Google for the mystery dependencies or rpmfind (which half the time can't find the right file either)? I've used urpmi and it can't tell me anything either.
There shouldn't even NEED to be a site called rpmfind! Anyone who writes a program for Linux should at LEAST mention what dependencies are needed and where they originate from.
Don't get me wrong. I love Linux's open sourceness, and I love how the author's are always improving their work, but how long do you have to endure this? Why do you need to search Google for some idea on the location of these files?
Anyway, to make an already long story shorter. I have only been able to actually install a few minor things. Most of the other Mandrake upgrades require some other file, and the RPM managers can't find it, and rpmfind can't find it, and I'm damn tired of searching google for them.
I worked on KDE3.0 for hours. I finally just installed the damn thing with missing dependencies -- which broke xwindows. It boots to console only now and I don't have the energy or the patience to dig through the RPM mess.
So... that's where I stand. I'm considering deleteing the Linux partition and going back to Windows. Why shouldn't I? When I want a new program or upgrade for Windows, I simply fetch it -- and install.
I noticed Debian doesn't use RPM. But I like to have my system with the latest and greatest programs and utilities. Is there any way to install the newer programs without using apt?
[ 12 May 2002: Message edited by: EvilDingo ]
Slackmonster
05-12-2002, 11:16 PM
Funny you should mention upgrading to KDE3, that is what broke my back for all rpm based distros. That happened last week. I now use Debian full time at home and at work. Using apt you can upgrade your entire distro all the way up to sid (unstable) which includes a lot of the newer versions of programs. And, if you are not able to get it that way you can always try compiling manually. I recommend doing a bit of this no matter what just to get the feel for things but you don't have to if you can live with missing X piece of software.The biggest problem you will have with Debian is the install. I have had to go through it so many times that I'm pretty used to it now but there are still things I screw up. It just comes down to the fact that, in my opinion, it tends to be a bit technical in it's descriptions and a bit too brief with the description. Hell there are even parts (mostly in the drivers section) that don't even have a description. I don't understand that but oh well. There are a bunch of people here that use Debian and will try to help you get things set up the way you want. Good luck.
kuber
05-12-2002, 11:17 PM
Lets say as a job you painstaking stack rocks on top of each other, and it takes you about 8 hours a day to stack them. One day you write a program that stacks the rocks for you! It lines them up and does it in half the time! A Windows user would welcome the program -- a Linux user would ignore it and continue to stack the rocks manually.
WHY? User friendliness is there to make your work easier and more productive. It doesn't make you any less of a man (or woman for that matter) to use it.
I think if you stick with linux for a while you will find this isn't always the case. User friendliness typically means someone who has never used a piece of software can pick it up quickly. It DOES NOT necessarily mean it makes you more productive in the long run. The advanced features the command line offers may take time to learn, but they will allow you to work a hell of a lot faster than a gui that anyone could use after 1min. I know for a fact I am more productive with apps like vim and the command line in general. The command line has a high learning curve, but it is rewarding because in the end; it will make you more productive and generally help you do work at a higher level of quality.
As an excersise, I decided I'd try to install the latest version KDE 3.0. This is where owning Linux sucks ***...
Correction: This is where using a linux distribution that uses RPMs sucks ***. Use Debian. It may take you a bit longer to install how you want it, but once you pick it up there will virtually no problem with the installation and removal of software.
Installing new programs, RPMs, and dependencies.
Let me start by saying that the Mandrake packaged RPM manager thing is absolutely CHOCK full of bugs and barely works. Nice episode in frustration trying to get that POS to work. Next, the Gnome? version didn't even function for me. So finally I tried the KDE RPM manager, and it actually worked.. sorta.
I figured out how to set different FTP sites as my source for RPMs, and downloaded upgrades to some of my programs... but lo and behold! EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN PACKAGE DEPENDS ON SOMETHING ELSE BEING INSTALLED AND *USUALLY* THE ORIGINATOR OF THE PROGRAM MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF WHAT THE HELL IT IS.
I'm not really sure because I have been free from the hell that is rpms, but I thought there was some rpm-based app that could tell you dependencies and dl them for you automatically -- red carpet or something?
EvilDingo
05-12-2002, 11:39 PM
Thanks for the replies. If you can compile the sources on your own, you don't have to wait for the .deb file? If that's the case, then it's no contest - Debian it is. Although, installing with source doesn't do anything to fix the dependent problem.. I don't think.
How does apt-get differ from RPMs? Does it include the dependencies -- or does it just know where they're located and can fetch them on it's own?
Forgot to mention. The RPM managers I've used can supposidly find and download the correct RPMs. But they can't, and they don't.
I think if you stick with linux for a while you will find this isn't always the case. User friendliness typically means someone who has never used a piece of software can pick it up quickly. It DOES NOT necessarily mean it makes you more productive in the long run. The advanced features the command line offers may take time to learn, but they will allow you to work a hell of a lot faster than a gui that anyone could use after 1min. I know for a fact I am more productive with apps like vim and the command line in general. The command line has a high learning curve, but it is rewarding because in the end; it will make you more productive and generally help you do work at a higher level of quality.
Very good point.
[ 12 May 2002: Message edited by: EvilDingo ]
Jepray
05-12-2002, 11:52 PM
I agree with kuber, rpms are a ridiculous mess to throw at people who are new to linux. In fact, because of rpms (as well as a couple other things) I consider RedHat and Mandrake's sole purpose to be "helper OSs" in making the transition from windows to linux. Once you've picked up either of these distros, managed to install them on your computer, gotten X to work, gotten internet connectivity to work, and are finally at the point where you want to install something new, it's time to move on. At this point you are more than capable of installing a "harder" OS like slackware or debian with no problems. That is when you really begin to learn linux. You start with a minimal install and add stuff yourself. You learn how useful the command line can actually be. You think back to your days of installing 1.5 gigs of the latest RedHat bloat and laugh. And you are amazed when you find yourself regularly downloading and compiling new programs from source because it is easier than dealing with rpms.
Slackmonster
05-13-2002, 12:08 AM
Yup, Debian's apt-get will do that very task for you if it's able. Basically you may need to answer a couple of config questions for the setup and that is it. Almost always done on it's own for you though.
Oh, what you are saying is true about the dependency problems. However, once you install most of the software you will run every day, you will find out that most of the required libraries will already be installed so you will run into less problems. Often, when a compile fails, it will tell you where you can get the necessary dependency, especially if it is a widely used tool set.
VampyreUK
05-13-2002, 05:43 AM
Hi,
I have some sympathy with the initial poster ... Linux does seem to be quite ... um ... challenging (?) at times particularly when, like me, you already know how to do things under a perfectly competent OS (am I allowed to say that about Windows <G> ).
I still haven't given up though ... I really, really want to get into Linux and am trying to use it as my primary OS at home, it's just, well, different :-) ... more than anything I DO get the impression that if I can break through the initial learning barrier that it WILL be worth it.
Maybe I should post up what I trying to get out of Linux ... after all I've been here all of 5 minutes and I haven't seen anyone savage Windows (which is refreshing) or say RTFM which many people seem to ... in other words thanks for being helpful :-)
Angel
EmperorPenguin
03-19-2003, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Jepray
I consider RedHat and Mandrake's sole purpose to be "helper OSs" in making the transition from windows to linux. Once you've picked up either of these distros, managed to install them on your computer, gotten X to work, gotten internet connectivity to work, and are finally at the point where you want to install something new, it's time to move on.
That's where I'm at ... I used Mandrake off and on for a few months ... moved on to Red Hat that I've been using steadily for the past 6 months or so, but now I've got an itch to move to something like Debian or Gentoo ... I'm still a little scared of the install though, especially since I'm on a Toshiba laptop, which are notorious for being a pain with hardware.
iomayho
03-19-2003, 04:35 AM
i like redhat 8, even though it comes with all that bloat.........,
the reason is because i did a fresh install of redhat 8 and then decided not to use rpm packages for installing stuffs..... you don't learn anything that way........ what i do is get the source and compile.......
i'm thinking of trying debian with min install on my laptop and get only the stuffs i need...... and see if it'll run faster than my redhat8 on my laptop........
i heard many good things about debian and maybe you should try it as well...........
arthur
03-19-2003, 04:36 AM
I fully back the very first comment on this thread!.
But would like to add something:
Why can't we just combine pure user-friendliness with high power?.
Does the system have to have a steep learning curve just so it looks powerful?,
or
can something be smooth in the outside, yet capable behind the scenes?
I used MacOS for ages, and it would never fail on me with obscure or non-existent messages: the GUI is just beautiful, and the guts of the system are there for anyone wanting to learn, get dirty or whatever.
Regards,
Arthur
iomayho
03-19-2003, 04:52 AM
the answer to that is NO...!!
its like saying you want to understand quantum mechanics just by learninng addition and subtraction.........
David Anderson
03-19-2003, 11:34 AM
Red Carpet is definitely something you should look into if you stick with Mandrake or Redhat. I recently posted a similar thread complaing about dependency nightmares. It is easily one of the biggest obstacles to allowing more home users to try Linux. It's very frustrating.
Red Carpet has a large list of programs it will install for you. It will automatically download and install any missing dependencies. I've been having great luck with it. I'm not sure if it'll always work, as I'm sure there will eventually be some package it doesn't know about, but so far it's been great for me. It's made my Linux life a lot easier.
Peace.
-Dave
bazoukas
03-20-2003, 11:18 PM
Fact of the matter is that in order for Linux to invade the desktop market some Linux distros should be user friendly where Jo and Jane can use them with no problem what so ever.
Tell a blue collar guy that needs to compile or to search for RPMS and he will beat you with a stick till you cry mama.
DMR
03-21-2003, 05:52 AM
Um, folks-
Anyone care to take a look at the history of the posting dates in this (somewhat pointless Win-vs.-Lin) thread?
By the looks of it, this thread has until quite recently, been happily slumbering in it's grave since May of 2002. Why disturb it now?
Originally posted by bazoukas
it wasnt my fault :( Perhaps not, but you'll do. After all, the only other members on the board right now are mdwatts and myself, so no one is really going to hear you scream....
are you a late nighter like me DMR or you live in Europe and slacking from work :D ?
DMR
03-21-2003, 07:42 AM
No one has told you yet? mdwatts and I don't need to sleep anymore; be careful- after a couple of years here it'll happen to you too.
;)
bazoukas
03-21-2003, 07:49 AM
te he he. I think am getting the bug. :p
Often times I sleep one time for 8-10 hours every two days :p
DMR
03-21-2003, 05:03 PM
Yup, good Penguinista- you're catching on now...
;)
sharth
03-21-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by EvilDingo
Thanks for the replies. If you can compile the sources on your own, you don't have to wait for the .deb file? If that's the case, then it's no contest - Debian it is. Although, installing with source doesn't do anything to fix the dependent problem.. I don't think.
auto-apt run ./configure
ack. bah. stupid evil posters posting on those year old threads. getting people like me who read only 2 posts and then reply, confuzled...
DMR
03-21-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by sharth
ack. bah. stupid evil posters posting on those year old threads.The really scary part is that I actually recognized the subject of this post even though it's been dead for a year.
:eek:
Resident_Geek
03-22-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by DMR
Um, folks-
Anyone care to take a look at the history of the posting dates in this (somewhat pointless Win-vs.-Lin) thread?
By the looks of it, this thread has until quite recently, been happily slumbering in it's grave since May of 2002. Why disturb it now?
Shouldn't that be a good thing? That shows that someone was either reading od posts or searching the forums to find what they needed. Would you rather they asked a question that's been asked a million times in this forum, or find it themselves?
DMR
03-22-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Resident_Geek
Shouldn't that be a good thing? That shows that someone was either reading od posts or searching the forums to find what they needed. Would you rather they asked a question that's been asked a million times in this forum, or find it themselves? There's no harm in it at all, it just seems pointless in this case.
This thread was just a discussion; there's really no technical question/answer/info stuff going on here. It's also just a discussion of personal opinions on a topic that's been hashed out here thousands of times.
:)
Resident_Geek
03-22-2003, 08:05 PM
Well, the post that brought up the thread was a reply to this one:
Originally posted by Jepray
I agree with kuber, rpms are a ridiculous mess to throw at people who are new to linux. In fact, because of rpms (as well as a couple other things) I consider RedHat and Mandrake's sole purpose to be "helper OSs" in making the transition from windows to linux. Once you've picked up either of these distros, managed to install them on your computer, gotten X to work, gotten internet connectivity to work, and are finally at the point where you want to install something new, it's time to move on. At this point you are more than capable of installing a "harder" OS like slackware or debian with no problems. That is when you really begin to learn linux. You start with a minimal install and add stuff yourself. You learn how useful the command line can actually be. You think back to your days of installing 1.5 gigs of the latest RedHat bloat and laugh. And you are amazed when you find yourself regularly downloading and compiling new programs from source because it is easier than dealing with rpms.
which seems to me like he was searching for RPMs, Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware, or Debian. And I dont' thoink this is really a pointless thread - there's been some discussion about packaging programs and dependency resolving that could be useful. And I happen to think that nothing on the Internet is "just discussion". If you're discussing something, you're passing information, changing opinions, and helping people. Most of the useful stuff I find on Google is discussions, because they have a lot of info packed into it. For instance, recently I found out that GRUB has some problems booting XP, and I found the solution in a discussion about the MBR. I agree that the Win vs LIN is a bit oversone here, but that's not all there is to this thread. For example, I just polluted the board with 5 times as much text as I needed to. But I tend to do that a lot. :D
Resident_Geek
03-22-2003, 08:06 PM
Well, the post that brought up the thread was a reply to this one:
Originally posted by Jepray
I agree with kuber, rpms are a ridiculous mess to throw at people who are new to linux. In fact, because of rpms (as well as a couple other things) I consider RedHat and Mandrake's sole purpose to be "helper OSs" in making the transition from windows to linux. Once you've picked up either of these distros, managed to install them on your computer, gotten X to work, gotten internet connectivity to work, and are finally at the point where you want to install something new, it's time to move on. At this point you are more than capable of installing a "harder" OS like slackware or debian with no problems. That is when you really begin to learn linux. You start with a minimal install and add stuff yourself. You learn how useful the command line can actually be. You think back to your days of installing 1.5 gigs of the latest RedHat bloat and laugh. And you are amazed when you find yourself regularly downloading and compiling new programs from source because it is easier than dealing with rpms.
which seems to me like he was searching for RPMs, Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware, or Debian. And I dont' thoink this is really a pointless thread - there's been some discussion about packaging programs and dependency resolving that could be useful. And I happen to think that nothing on the Internet is "just discussion". If you're discussing something, you're passing information, changing opinions, and helping people. Most of the useful stuff I find on Google is discussions, because they have a lot of info packed into it. For instance, recently I found out that GRUB has some problems booting XP, and I found the solution in a discussion about the MBR. I agree that the Win vs Lin is a bit overdone here, but that's not all there is to this thread. For example, I just polluted the board with 5 times as much text as I needed to. But I tend to do that a lot. :D
DMR
03-22-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Resident_Geek
I just polluted the board with 5 times as much text as I needed to. Make that 10 times- you double-posted your response.
:D
Okie
03-23-2003, 10:55 AM
i somewhat agree just a little bit to a point, i use Windoze98 for just a few things because Linux still needs more polishing, but i don't bad-mouth Linux because i understand Linux is a "work in progress" (still under construction) i refuse to spend big bucks on WIndoze & windoze software because it is not worth it and M$FT's draconian EULAs are evil, this is why i still use win98 when even XP is the current (why bother spending big bucks for a newer version of vulnerable M$ kludgeware)...
...so i sit back and keep a close eye on Linux's progress, and hope & wait for Linux to unseat M$FT on the desktop at the major OEMs...
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