Linux Certification Track?? Which way to go

[NyteMask]

I have been looking at the different cert tracks to go down and not to sure which is the best. I am leaning towards the LPI (Linux Professional Institute). There , of course, is the RHCE, and also CompTIA has Linux+. What do you guys think and/or which do you use. :cool:

[TC]

Computer Science degree or technical/networking computing diploma from a accredited college. Then write A+, Net+ and LPI Linux.

Do this and you should be employable anywhere. Oh almost forgot some whiskers. ;)

[SpinyNorman]

I've been looking into certs as well, since going back to college for 2 years is not an option at this point in my life. After looking at the different certs and talking to people at the training centers in my area, here's how I'm leaning right now:

Do the Linux+ and Network+ certs first. These are entry-level certs compared to the others, and would probably make a good starting point. I've been doing tech support for a number of years so for me, it won't take a lot of time (or money) to get them.

Do SAIR/LPI next. Somewhere in this process I'm going to start taking on contract/freelance work (good $$), or find an employer who is willing to pay (or help pay) for further training, which will be focussed on getting:

my RHCE. The test is supposed to be an absolute Bear; respondents to a Certmag poll regarding certification programs in general rated the exam as the hardest of all. ouch.

If you plan on taking any of the seminars, intensives, "boot camps", etc. as part of your training, choose carefully- those puppies are not cheap!

[Chase]

Originally posted by TC:
<STRONG>Computer Science degree or technical/networking computing diploma from a accredited college. Then write A+, Net+ and LPI Linux.

Do this and you should be employable anywhere. Oh almost forgot some whiskers. ;)</STRONG>


Hmmm... I disagree. My certs (A+, Net+, i-Net+, CCNA, Linux+, MCP) have been FAR more valuable to me in the workplace than a college degree has. Computer and networking related careers don't care about a college degree that you have that's already stale by the time you graduate, which is the case with a CompSci degree. I really think employers are heavily leaning towards certs rather than degree. However, I'm still in school, not working on a *cough* worthless *cough* compsci degree though.

[DMR]

Originally posted by Chase:
<STRONG>
Hmmm... I disagree. My certs (A+, Net+, i-Net+, CCNA, Linux+, MCP) have been FAR more valuable to me in the workplace than a college degree has. Computer and networking related careers don't care about a college degree that you have that's already stale by the time you graduate, which is the case with a CompSci degree. I really think employers are heavily leaning towards certs rather than degree. However, I'm still in school, not working on a *cough* worthless *cough* compsci degree though.</STRONG>Ah, that's a little harsh Chase. While I agree with most of what you're saying, for someone who is just starting college, TC's advice is good.
As someone who has been working with computers since *cough*learning assembly language on an 8080 in college*cough*, I'm going the cert route at this point. But that's because I have experience behind me, and don't have the time to go back to school for 2 years to re-train/re-educate. I really think employers are heavily leaning towards certs rather than degree.I have to disagree. That used to be the case, but in this economy (or lack thereof), companies are really re-evaluating that. If you've been following the trade publications and other industry resources, you'll know that many companies have been doing a lot of rethinking concerning the value of "paper" certifications. They either want people with real-world experience, or fresh college grads that they can pay next to nothing for and train/mold them with the assumption that they will stay with the company for a long time.

[jglen490]

Get a degree.

Many of the facts that you learn as a part of the degree program are stale 5 minutes after the final exam, BUT, the process of getting a degree conditions you (body, mind, and soul) to learning. Most employers will want you to do things their way, not so much the "book" way. So learn!!

If you can't get a degree right away, then focus on certs. Don't get too many entry level certs, but getting one will again teach how to learn your subject. Focus on the higher level certs, especially LPI. Once you have those, and hopefully have a job -- get a degree.

[ 21 March 2002: Message edited by: jglen490 ]

[NyteMask]

Well, I am A+,CCNA,CCA,MCP,3comNBX and have 3 yeard exp in the network engineering field. I have found more people want people with exp +certs. I have worked with many companies that have been burned by people with degrees and a couple of certs, but when they went to work, they could'nt produce. You have to be quick and accurate in this business. Not that a degree is bad, but if you come out of school with a couple of certs and not that much exp in the real world, you are going to get beat by the guy with 3+ years exp and certs to compliment it. :eek:

[Chase]

Originally posted by DMR:
I have to disagree. That used to be the case, but in this economy (or lack thereof), companies are really re-evaluating that. If you've been following the trade publications and other industry resources, you'll know that many companies have been doing a lot of rethinking concerning the value of "paper" certifications. They either want people with real-world experience, or fresh college grads that they can pay next to nothing for and train/mold them with the assumption that they will stay with the company for a long time.

An economy, or lack thereof? Are you arguing that we're in a recession? I'm an economics major, and we're not in a recession. After September 11th, many people liked to use the word 'recession' as a industry buzzwork when, infact, there has been no recession, nor do many economists forcast one after this quarter.

As for "paper" certifications, I think it really depends on which way you lean down the certification track. There's a huge concern for paper MCSE's, but the Cisco track is still very highly respected.

I didn't advocate for someone not going to school and getting a degree. I think that by going to school and getting a degree, you are doing one of the best things you could ever do for yourself. Aristotle argues that the best possible good for a human is a life of study, and I tend to agree with him. Go to school, get the degree, go on to graduate work! You are only bettering yourself. What I said was don't bother getting the ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS compsci degree. jglen490 had it right. The degree conditions your mind, body, and spirit, but don't waste your time getting a degree in computers. I have many friends that have made that mistake and now are on the same cert track as me.

As far as the certs being more valuable to employees than a degree. I know for Minneapolis, Minnesota, certs and experience far outweigh education, hands down. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I have about 30 people living here in Minneapolis that would strongly agree with me.

Anways, I've talked to much. :(

[usual]

I would think companies would lean toward experienced people also but the problem is how do you get experience without a start? I'm currently in the process or getting a two year degree in networking and I think I'm going to go one more year and get a BA in computer security, during school I plan on starting to get certs, from what I understand having the degrees is important as well as actual know how and certs. I have my personal self taught experience and I also left a regular college and entered a tech school (ITT) because the education is superior IMHO. I'll be new to the field when or before I'm done with my two year degree but I figure with the associates and some certs and hopefully the BA in computer security for only one more year of school will leave me in a pretty good standing. But honestly I don't know where I would be without my own personal experience. I watch people struggle in my school because they have barely touched a computer before, and I'm just like...what will happen when they actually get a job doing this **** and can't perform...I dunno..but I'm going to aim for the degree(s) + certs + personal experience and see what happens.

[NyteMask]

Let me just say, I think getting a degree by far is a good thing overall. I'm just saying in the IT industry, it is hard to get anywhere without have certs + exp. Now if you have a degree + certs + exp, then you will the the guy to ge the job. From working with people in this industry who have degree and certs, they talk about the 4 yr degree like it was something to fall back on incase they ever needed it. ;)

[usual]

Yea I can imagine. One thing that I noticed about schools and degrees was that the "regular" colleges course layouts for computer science degrees barely had anything to do with computers. Thats fine if you think things like Humanities or Western Civilization or whatever will help you in the IT field, I just don't understand it. Also things like C/UNIX, should they be bundled like that?? I remember taking VB at a community college and I didn't learn **** from the class(not that I care for VB to begin with) and I took it again at ITT and I actually know something now. Thats why I switched up, I'd like to have know-how AND a piece of paper, rather then JUST a piece of paper.

[HOJUbobo]

Originally posted by Chase:
<STRONG>
As far as the certs being more valuable to employees than a degree. I know for Minneapolis, Minnesota, certs and experience far outweigh education, hands down. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I have about 30 people living here in Minneapolis that would strongly agree with me.
</STRONG>

Where I live, any decent paying networking, etc job won't even look at you if you don't have a diploma from some kind of computer systems course.

Sure, maybe having that diploma doesn't mean you really know your stuff, but it's required to get in the door, after that it's up to you to make sure that you know your stuff with certs etc.
And of course certs can always help in getting hired, along with the diploma.

[NyteMask]

Originally posted by HOJUbobo:
<STRONG>Where I live, any decent paying networking, etc job won't even look at you if you don't have a diploma from some kind of computer systems course.

Sure, maybe having that diploma doesn't mean you really know your stuff, but it's required to get in the door, after that it's up to you to make sure that you know your stuff with certs etc.
And of course certs can always help in getting hired, along with the diploma.</STRONG>

are you in the work force yet. The world must be a different place where you are. Degrees definetly help the cause, but with the IT industrie taking the hit that it is, people are looking for the most qualified no matter what. Some of the High level Engineers I have worked with in the past, out of most of them, never even went to college and they are making in the upper 90's. Dont rely on just your degree and some certs and think you are going to get a good paying job. you wont. You need to get some experience any way you can. You will also have to do like the rest of us and start with a low paying, low profile position somewhere and work your way up.

:D

[jglen490]

I'm just saying in the IT industry, it is hard to get anywhere without have certs + exp. Now if you have a degree + certs + exp, then you will the the guy to ge the job.

To which I have to say, not to be argumentative but rather from a different experience viewpoint, it depends. It depends on what industry you are going to in "IT", it depends on what job you are after within that industry, and it depends on how far you want to go with that job.

I got a B.S. C&IS degree late in life -- I depended on my years of experience to get me into this job that I have now. As soon as I got that degree, I got a very nice pay raise on top of my normal "been-here-long-enough-yet-Methusalah?" pay raise. Plus, I noticed that the 99.9% of the people advancing beyond the work in the trenches were those who had not only a B.S., but had gone on with advanced studies and degrees.

As to the worth of a degree, if you are looking for technical work, then get a technical degree, if you are looking for more academic or theoretical work, then get one that does not have a specific technical view. That's the difference between getting a B.S. from DeVry Tech or getting a B.S. from (name of highly regarded state university). Both are excellent degrees, but they are not the same degree.

My degree is in C&IS. Can I program? Yes, in a few different languages. Do I want to program? Not necessarily, because I'm a much better analyst than programmer.

It gets complicated sometimes, if you let it, but in the long run, you are always much better off with a degree than without one.

[ 21 March 2002: Message edited by: jglen490 ]

[iDxMan]

Originally posted by jglen490:
It gets complicated sometimes, if you let it, but in the long run, you are always much better off with a degree than without one.


On a scale of generalities, this is probably true.

I currently don't have a degree and don't see myself going back at this point (currently am a programmer/sysadmin). I'd say if the orig poster feels its a good idea and has the time/money, sure go for it. Employers like the pretty paper you wave in front of them. If anything at all, it'll get you in the door when they are blind and can only make a decision when X = n. (&lt;drool&gt;HR say me to hire monkey that carry TPS with them&lt;/drool&gt; )

Once out you still need to study/learn to keep up with the world and adapt to the deadlines. (oh sh!t, we need audit data -- hack up a perl data mangler for us by last year. God knows it'll take us 15weeks to figure it out.)

[ 21 March 2002: Message edited by: iDxMan ]

[PimpHolic]

im still in high school and am fairly young, but i would like to become a programmer / sysadmin or something in the related field
what would you suggest i do? go for a degree from a university, get some certs and just start with any job to get some experience and go from there?

[mychl]

Comptia's Linux+ is a waste IMO. Why waste the time and $ on an introductory cert, when you can just get right into LPI.

I took the LPI exam once already, I got 450 out of the 490 to pass. I'm taking it again next week and I will pass it. It was not that difficult, but there were a few fill in the blank questions I was clueless about. 800 possible points with 56 questions, so I missed by a question or 2

The exams are $100 each, you need 2 to get your first cert. THere are enough books out there to help you study.

I personally don't understand why one would want to spend money on getting certified for the first %25 of the first LPI exam.

And RHCE is WAY to expensive for anyone who isn't really really ready.

My $.02

[HOJUbobo]

Originally posted by NyteMask:
<STRONG>are you in the work force yet. The world must be a different place where you are. Degrees definetly help the cause, but with the IT industrie taking the hit that it is, people are looking for the most qualified no matter what. Some of the High level Engineers I have worked with in the past, out of most of them, never even went to college and they are making in the upper 90's. Dont rely on just your degree and some certs and think you are going to get a good paying job. you wont. You need to get some experience any way you can. You will also have to do like the rest of us and start with a low paying, low profile position somewhere and work your way up.

:D</STRONG>

I'll agree with you there, about the experience thing.. I have worked for a computer shop as a pc tech for about 2 years, and after that as I've worked through the last 2 years at college I got a different job as ISP Help desk guy/ PC Tech/Network consultant. That's 4 years of experience, Mind you it may not be as a high end Network guy, but in the ISP field networking has been a large part of the work.
anyways,

What I'm saying is a Diploma is gonna help you, say if 2 guys apply for a job,
they both have 4 years experience,
they both have a bunch of certs,
but one guy has a Diploma/Degree...

That's gonna put the guy with the Diploma one step ahead of the other guy.
To some employers it shows that the person has a dedication to getting something done, since they spent 2 years (or more) of their life for a computer systems diploma.
I know of particular jobs (better paying jobs) that I had looked at before I got the job at the ISP I work for right now, that would not even interview you if you did not have a diploma from a 2 year course... It stated that right in their ad for hiring, in the newspaper.

Now agreed, that diploma doesn't really mean the person is more knowledgeable than another guy with a bunch of experience and certs but no diploma, but for some companies to take you seriously you gotta have that diploma/degree.

That may be different where you live, but it's not here.
That may be because I don't live in a super Technically oriented city, but there are still a number of jobs that interest me here, where I could apply my skills,

I live in Brandon MB, Canada.
And from what I've seen in the papers for our Neighboring city (a much larger city), the technical job market is looking for the same thing.

[ 22 March 2002: Message edited by: HOJUbobo ]