I just tried KDE 4.1, and it pretty much convinced me that KDE 4 may not be for me. For almost three years, I've been working on my own Desktop paradigm, based on fluxbox maximized to run KDE applications, built mostly around Konqueror. Plasma puts up a wall in the middle of my paradigm. I can't run desktop icons from Konqueror anymore. So this is not for me. (Actually, I can run Desktop Icons, but the only way I can create them currently is to script them by hand, which I don't find practical)
Now, KDE 3 is still supported, there's even another release planned, but I can't continue to comfortably build on my paradigm knowing that the end might be near. So my question is this: What can I reasonably expect if I continue to use KDE 3 indefinitely after it is no longer maintained? Suppose I start compiling from source. Will I be able to use future releases? Any other problems that might come up?
Of course, I remember how I used to hate Ubuntu, I may work through this, but I'm wondering what my options are.
blackbelt_jones
07-31-2008, 11:54 AM
Okay, it looks like the ability to add a link to an application is in KDE 4 now. That's a good thing, but I still want to ask. Can I expect to be able to keep using KDE3 indefinitely? I'd really like to know.
bwkaz
07-31-2008, 07:17 PM
Sure, you can. Just don't upgrade KDE using your package manager. :p (E.g., dpkg can put a hold on a certain program, which will prevent it from being upgraded unless you explicitly ask. I assume other package managers have something similar.)
I suspect that wasn't the question you were really asking, though. ;) You can continue running old versions, but if you do, you won't get any new security updates (if any get released) that affect both the old and the new versions, unless the developers release a patch for both. Or you backport the patch to the older version.
So yes, it is possible -- but I don't know whether it'll end up being a good idea...
blackbelt_jones
07-31-2008, 08:22 PM
You can continue running old versions, but if you do, you won't get any new security updates (if any get released) that affect both the old and the new versions, unless the developers release a patch for both. Or you backport the patch to the older version.
So yes, it is possible -- but I don't know whether it'll end up being a good idea...
Well, I'm just thinking through a worst case scenario. It's probably going to be all right in the end. I found my way around the Plasma problem (In other words, there never was a Plasma problem.) I've read that it's going to be easy to write extensions for Konqueror, and I'll bet that someone is going to write an extension to restore Konqueror to its former self.
KDE 4 is looking terrific, even though I can be found elsewhere on the web talking about how I hate it "like Death". This transition has been wrenching for me, because I knew that my awesome fluxbox-konqueror hybrid desktop, which I was about to release as a live CD when all this started to happen, is not a factor in anyone's plans for KDE. I install every new KDE4 release, and the experience always turns me into a shrieking nancy boy for at least 24 hours. I can't help it. I'm just a man in love, with his desktop paradigm. I'm just glad I didn't post a lot about KDE 4 in here.
Check out my Konqueror startpage. This is why I'm so dependent on KDE, because, as far as I know, only Konqueror can do this. The Green Links are menus, The Blue Links are web pages, the Black Links are folders, the brown links are applications, the red link opens text configuration files in a text editor, and the pink links are files, usually PDF documents.
I suppose that I have a lot of time before the plug gets pulled. Debian Lenny is supposed to come out as stable in September, and that ought to be good for a couple of years.
glasdave
08-01-2008, 02:26 AM
Nice and practical, Blackbelt.......
blackbelt_jones
08-01-2008, 09:04 AM
Nice and practical, Blackbelt.......
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I'm really proud of this system of organizing links, which I've never seen before. That means I invented it, even though I'll bet Microsoft is going to patent it now. :)
The color coding makes it easy to find something even though I've got everything together in one page.
Yes, I'm taking about the png you linked to. It's a thing of beauty.Keep up the good works.
blackbelt_jones
08-02-2008, 03:35 PM
Thanks, I really appreciate that. I've been posting that all over, without a single comment.
Here's some good news! I just learned that Ubuntu Hardy Heron is a Long Term Support release, so that means I can keep using KDE 3 with impunity until sometime in 2011!
Calipso
08-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Nicely organized. But the yellow background? ouch.
blackbelt_jones
08-05-2008, 11:50 PM
Nicely organized. But the yellow background? ouch.
Yeah, I may have to decolorize it.
I think I'm going to start using Slackware. All that compiling is a pain in the ***, but for whatever reason, whenever I install Slackware I become focused and productive, I don't goof around, I get things done. As an added bonus, it's hard to imagine Slackware in a big hurry to adopt KDE 4 as the standard; they're finally getting behind the 2.6 kernel.
Of course, eventually I will love KDE 4. It always ends up that way.
JohnT
08-08-2008, 08:38 AM
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I'm really proud of this system of organizing links, which I've never seen before. That means I invented it, even though I'll bet Microsoft is going to patent it now. :)
The color coding makes it easy to find something even though I've got everything together in one page.
which uses the GIMP, bless them.
I don't quite understand your statement of
"this system of organizing links, which I've never seen before"
What system?? .html???
blackbelt_jones
08-10-2008, 08:58 PM
I don't quite understand your statement of
"this system of organizing links, which I've never seen before"
What system?? .html???
Instead of dividing the links into different sections according to type, there's one list in alphabetical order, color-coded according to type (blue is webpages, red opens a text file for editing, etc.) I love this system. You don't have to think about where to look, but the color coding can help you to find it faster. I can't be the first person to ever think of it, I'm sure. But I really like this.
New Screenshot. I have to admit, it does look better in white. (http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2334/kikdf3.png)
JohnT
08-11-2008, 04:27 AM
H-m-m...what do you consider the advantage of this as compared to customized icons?
blackbelt_jones
08-20-2008, 09:27 AM
Well, technically, aren't these custom icons?
blackbelt_jones
08-20-2008, 11:07 AM
Okay, I think I understand the question now.
I think there's an advantage in portability. I keep the files in my .fluxbox files, so the whole thing goes with me when I copy my .fluxbox files to a different directory. Not only the icons themselves, but the whole organization scheme. I like that an html page allows me to edit all the links together at once. And it's interesting to wonder what else could be accomplished with the html format.
But this question reminds me of all the command line vs. GUI arguments that are no longer relevant. My standard answer is "its not about one tool being better than another tool. It's about two tools being better than one tool.
mudra
08-20-2008, 02:40 PM
Sorry Blackbelt Jones - if you go to Slackware I think they are going to change to KDE4. Maybe you could find a home with ARCHLINUX I did.
Mudra
www.slackware.org
blackbelt_jones
08-20-2008, 08:11 PM
Sorry Blackbelt Jones - if you go to Slackware I think they are going to change to KDE4. Maybe you could find a home with ARCHLINUX I did.
Mudra
www.slackware.org
Slackware? I'll believe it when I see it. Eventually it'll happen, but I can't see anything like KDE4.1 becoming the Slackware default anytime soon.
My view of KDE 4 has evolved considerably since I started this thread, but it still hasn't settled. I guess I like the idea of it as a way forward, but not as THE way forward. I guess I think that it's really awesome... it's just not as as awesome as my custom desktop of KDE 3 applications run with Fluxbox. I actually started to use KDE4.1 for a while. I was very impressed. But then I just lost interest. It's going to be amazing. It's going to bring a lot of flexibility and power to the graphical side of things-- but as we all know-- there are other kinds of flexibility and power. After posting a lot against KDE4, I made a point of publically admitting that I was wrong... but I wasn't all that wrong. The main thing problem is that the desktop application that I depend most upon, Konqueror, has been weakend. Like KDE4 itself, Dolphin has some really impressive new features that I'm not finding very useful.
I really expect that KDE will fix Konqueror in time, but my current backup plan is to use a KDE3 based live CD. A live CD has a lot of security advantages. It can be cleared with a reboot, and it's read-only. It's amazing how much customization can be kept in those text-based fluxbox configuration files. I can set up my system after a reboot just by copying those files to ~.
panther3e
08-25-2008, 07:58 AM
blackbelt_jones, on 8-13-08 Slackware added KDE 4.1 to there current/testing branch.
blackbelt_jones
08-26-2008, 04:04 PM
blackbelt_jones, on 8-13-08 Slackware added KDE 4.1 to there current/testing branch.
I KNOW, I KNOW...:rolleyes:
And I'm not surprised. But I still expect that it's going to take a long while to make the stable version. (I said "default" before, but that was a misnomer. I should have said "stable".)
Incidentally, I'm not using Slackware; I'm using Vector SoHo 5.8.
I'm really not willing to make predictions about how long it will take, but I will predict this: when KDE4 is mature enough to be included in the stable version of Slackware, it'll probably be mature enough for me to use without complaining.
I went from hating KDE4 to liking it to being rather disillussioned with it after a period of use. For me, it's mostly about Konqueror. The KDE4.1 version of Konqueror is just terrible. No filter bar, and no "Storage Media" window. I use these two functions dozens of times a day. And with Konqueror 4.1, I keep getting an error message: This is a directory. Konqueror was expecting a file.
Dolphin is a pretty good file manager, almost as good as Konqueror used to be, though many navigational moves require extra clicking (want to move up a level? First click "go", and then click up), at least there's a ****ing filter bar. Dolphin also has a built in terminal window that automatically cds when you change directories, which is impressive... but can anybody think of a use for this? I can't and all the cd-ing clogs up my command history, and I'd rather just hit F4 when I want a terminal window. Dolphin doesn't seem to exist because of any need other than the developer's need to manage our experience.
And I can't copy urls from Konqueror to my scripts anymore. That is a HUGE inconvenience, though I suspect there may be a security advantage.
I really do expect that they're going to fix all this, except maybe the copying of urls. But I'm covering my *** just in case, and taking care to understand my options. KDE may not need me, but I need Konqueror!
This reminds me of an old gwbasic program I wrote to auto-run at boot up (OS DOS 6.1) that made a basic menu of my most used programs. Each was prefixed with a letter (ex. A) Program 1 B) Program 2), so once the menu came up, hit one letter and that program was started.
To each there own I guess. It depends on what region of your brain is the most developed that you use for communication. Some people think in terms of images, some in terms of words, some are a odd mix of the two. For me, its easier to type the program name than find the icon (or link in your page). My desktops usually have no icons at all (I replace icons with hotkeys).
However, for someone that is wired more for images, then this would consolidate your programs visually without cluttering your desktop with icons. You could get a bit creative and have it look into a directory and randomly select an image from it to use as your background. Then hit that background with a 30-50% opacity so that it is still easy to read your links. Plain backgrounds make my eyes sad. :o
blackbelt_jones
08-27-2008, 05:40 PM
This reminds me of an old gwbasic program I wrote to auto-run at boot up (OS DOS 6.1) that made a basic menu of my most used programs. Each was prefixed with a letter (ex. A) Program 1 B) Program 2), so once the menu came up, hit one letter and that program was started.
To each there own I guess. It depends on what region of your brain is the most developed that you use for communication. Some people think in terms of images, some in terms of words, some are a odd mix of the two. For me, its easier to type the program name than find the icon (or link in your page). My desktops usually have no icons at all (I replace icons with hotkeys).
However, for someone that is wired more for images, then this would consolidate your programs visually without cluttering your desktop with icons. You could get a bit creative and have it look into a directory and randomly select an image from it to use as your background. Then hit that background with a 30-50% opacity so that it is still easy to read your links. Plain backgrounds make my eyes sad. :o
I like redundancy. The more ways to do something, the better. Sometimes I'm sitting up in front of the computer, and thats when I use keybindings, Konsole, and the run dialgoue. Other times I'm lying in bed on my side, and that's when I use the menu and the konqueror startpage.
I may have mentioned, I usually use fluxbox to manage KDE applications, so I don't have desktop icons, either. Of course, you can put "links to applications" into any folder, where they can be accessed by Konqueror. That's pretty much the same thing as a Desktop Icon, but with a lot more flexibility. So if you don't want to clutter up your desktop icons, and don't want to do the html, either, you can put links in any folder in Konqueror (including Desktop) and open and close the folder at will.
As a matter of fact, some of the html links in my homepage work by linking to konqueror links which I keep in a seperate folder.
<a href=[COLOR="Red"]"file:///home/melvin/.fluxbox/kickpage/launchers/edit_keys.desktop"[/COLOR="Red"]><img src="file:///home/melvin/.fluxbox/kickpage/icons/editkeybindings.png"></a>, the html links here:
KDE 3.5.10 was just released! I feel bad about complaining about KDE4 before, when KDE continues to maintain the KDE3 series. That's all that any devotee of KDE 3 could ever ask of them. I intend to send a modest donation to KDE in appreciation of the service, and anyone who wants to keep KDE3 around ought to consider doing the same thing.
trilarian
08-27-2008, 06:03 PM
I like redundancy. The more ways to do something, the better. Sometimes I'm sitting up in front of the computer, and thats when I use keybindings, Konsole, and the run dialgoue. Other times I'm lying in bed on my side, and that's when I use the menu and the konqueror startpage.
Since you don't have a strong preference, but intermingle both - then I'd assume your brain is wired more in the middle ground. The nice thing, is you can have both and are not forced to one way of doing things.
For me - I guess I'm wired to one extreme. I simply hate icons, dialog boxes, and basically anything that makes me use a mouse for more than a couple clicks. I do feel right at home with a blank screen and blinking cursor - or a few screens with many such blinking cursors on transparent shells. :D
I also have my computer two rooms away from my bed - different from everywhere else I've lived - but the bedroom is too small. I'm moving out in December, so we'll see... I kind of miss having my computer wake me up to a 2 hour play list that went from almost inaudible ambient sounds to full volume death metal (rarely got that far... usually woke up slowly and happily somewhere in the middle when the music started to have a drumbeat). The high pitched squealing of my alarm clock has landed it smashed against my wall too many mornings... :p
Once I have a computer near where I fall asleep... maybe I'll adopt some of your methods...
blackbelt_jones
08-27-2008, 06:11 PM
No, I think I'm more about language than images. I do think of the kickpage as more about language than images, I just use big color-coded words, but the most important thing for me is that they're all in alphabetical order.
Nautilus, Shmautilus. Ever try using Nautilus from fluxbox?
paj12
08-27-2008, 11:13 PM
KDE 3.5.10 was just released! I feel bad about complaining about KDE4 before, when KDE continues to maintain the KDE3 series. That's all that any devotee of KDE 3 could ever ask of them.
Don't forget also that distributions will keep supporting KDE3 according to their policies. For instance, Debian supports the current and previous stable distributions with security updates. Since, lately, the Debian developers seem to be aiming for approximately a year and a half between releases, a "devotee of KDE 3" could conceivably keep running the old release for 3 years before support is dropped. I think after 3 years, even the hardest-core KDE 3 enthusiast would be ready for something new.
blackbelt_jones
08-28-2008, 09:31 PM
I think after 3 years, even the hardest-core KDE 3 enthusiast would be ready for something new.
The question, of course, is whether something new will be ready for the hardest-core KDE enthusiast.
I may be a special case. I don't actually use KDE3 per se; I run KDE applications from fluxbox. It works great for me, and it's mostly all about Konqueror. In KDE3, Konqueror actually carries virtually all the capabilities of the entire K Desktop Environment within its own structure. This makes it great for fleshing out a Window Manager.
I tried KDE4, and all that plasma folderol; Except for folderview, which allows for multiple desktops, I think it's currently more style than substance, and really, Konqueror 3 can do almost anything that folderview can do-- but having gone back to my fluxbox/KDE hybrid (I call it "Kickbox"), plasma has nothing to do with me one way or another. All that I care about is whether they restore Konqueror to its previous level of power and flexibility. I understand that it's not a priority, but I think they'll eventually get to it. However, with the current push toward splitting Konqueror's role between Konqueror and Dolphin, I can't be sure that it's going to happen. Until it does, I'm going to keep right on being in-freaking-sane on the subject of KDE.
Three years from now, I'll be using something new, because Fluxbox and Konqueror allow me to create my own menus, keyboard shortcuts, and to put a "desktop launcher" (called "a link to an application" in Konqueror) anywhere I want in the filesystem. The possibilities are endless, and I'm always using something new!
blackbelt_jones
09-02-2008, 01:34 PM
I think after 3 years, even the hardest-core KDE 3 enthusiast would be ready for something new.
May I ask why? Just because three years has passed?
As time passes, we're starting to see all kinds predictions based on the presumption that newer is better, but some of these predictions are what I call "electric spoons"-- technology that isn't better, just more elaborate and intrusive. Last year, I was reading everywhere about Second Life, and how virtual reality was the future of the internet. We were all going to be shopping online by dragging avatars around virtual department stores. I used to play in Second Life when I had a computer that could handle it, and it's an awesome toy, way way better than an electric train set, but have you ever tried pushing an avatar around a virtual mall? For actual shopping for actual goods, it's not exactly efficient, and isn't efficiency the point of online shopping?
Recently, I read an article about "experts" who were predicting that touchscreens would replace mice in five years. Five years from now, no mice, only touchscreens. Trace your finger diagonally accross the screen once, and see if that makes sense to you.
It sure doesn't make sense to me. For one thing, I'm farsighted, and I like not having to be within an arm's length of my screen. I could go on about economy of motion, different ways of using my computer, and the ridiculous cost of the thing. I'm not saying that touchscreens aren't without applications, but for everyone? And these are experts saying this.
I wish I could say KDE4.1 was an electric spoon, but obviously, it isn't. Lots of people are finding it more useful than I did. But is anyone suggesting that, three years from now, Carpenters will need a different kind of hammer, just because it's been three years? One of the things people say in support of KDE4 is that people have been using the same basic desktop for twenty five years. Why is the fact that something has worked for 30 years automatically an argument for something new? I just don't see the logic. In the digital age, innovation is easy, and it's going to get easier. As our software gets more sophisticated, good innovation is going to get harder. New is not necessarily better by default.
blackbelt_jones
09-02-2008, 11:58 PM
According to www.slackware.com, the Slackware team is actually really excited about KDE4! :( Wait, it gets worse!
They're also really excited about their new logo...
http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png:eek:
Get it? It's a Palindrome! It reads the same way upside down as right side up... or at least it would if you could read it. It's clever and all, but how appropriate is it to use a visual representation of convoluted paradox for the distro that has always stood for unaffected simplicity?
I think the Slackware Team has been taken over by Aliens-- and not smart Aliens either! More like the Aliens from "Plan 9 from Outer Space!";)
JohnT
09-03-2008, 06:27 AM
According to www.slackware.com, the Slackware team is actually really excited about KDE4! :( Wait, it gets worse!
They're also really excited about their new logo...
http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png:eek:
Get it? It's a Palindrome! It reads the same way upside down as right side up... or at least it would if you could read it. It's clever and all, but how appropriate is it to use a visual representation of convoluted paradox for the distro that has always stood for unaffected simplicity?
I think the Slackware Team has been taken over by Aliens-- and not smart Aliens either! More like the Aliens from "Plan 9 from Outer Space!";)
Because a convoluted paradox seems to be simplicity personified in this world of ever forwardness!
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