After all my complaining, I have embraced Ubuntu

[blackbelt_jones]

I think my friends in here probably understand by now that it's a part of my personality to complain bitterly about something before totally getting with it. Back when I was using (and loving) SUSE, I was occasionally reminded (not as often as I deserved) about how I had posted a total rant about how "SUSE sucks sucks sucks suckity sucks". The bottom line is that I have been wrong in here so extravagantly, and so many times, that I have come to accept it as part of the learning process. When I was biatching about KDE4 in a recent thread, I knew the whole time that I was probably going to love KDE4 someday soon (or at least admire it, since nothing is likely to take the place of my beloved fluxbox), and I even said so several times, though I'm not there yet.

In "real life", I pride myself on not being a complainer. But in here, I can't stop myself from whining when trying to grapple with a new DE or an unfamiliar distro, and don't even think that I should. The concerns that I raise when in biatch mode are often valid, even if they are not the final word. The point of view of someone who just doesn't get it is worth considering, though, obviously, the person who gets it is the real expert. Besides, my complaining has led to some good discussions, and I have learned a lot from the people who were trying to shut me up.

But of all the things I ever complained about, oh how I complained about Ubuntu... repeatedly, over a couple of years. And complained and complained-- because all the time I was hating it, I was also drawn to it. So I would try it again and again, and it would piss me off again and again.

And now, inevitably, Ubuntu seems to have become my distro of choice.

Part of the reason for this happening now is that something seems to have changed in Debian. Having lost my tolerance for Debian stable, which always a little bit old, even when first released, I would install Debian Sid by installing the base system from the net install disc, editing the sources.list file, apt-get updating, apt-get dist-upgrading, and then using tasksel to install the desktop environment. Well, the last time I tried that, all of a sudden, the upgrade would somehow uninstall tasksel. And I couldn't reinstall it. I tried it several times.

Another thing that happened was that I solved my problem with display resolution, which had made Ubuntu seem ungainly and uncomfortable, in the most unlikely way. This second-hand computer came with an added nvidia card. Some distros can detect it, but others (mostly debian-based distros) seem to detect the onboard card, which doesn't work, so I boot into blackness. I couldn't seem to fix this in the bios, though maybe someone else could. My way of fixing it with Debian has been to install the proprietary driver from the nvidia website (using my favorite text browser, elinks) and run the nvidia-xorgconfig application, which also came from the nvidia website. This would give me a display, but with Ubuntu, the resolution would be dreadful. I'd be looking at 800x600 on a 23 inch screen! The xorg.conf file would be filled with information from the onboard card, which made the file too confusing for me to figure out how to edit it, having no experience with that.

How did I fix it? Well, it was the dumbest thing. I saved the xorg.conf file from a previous installation of openSUSE, copied it into my Ubuntu system, and that was that! I never expected that to work. I figured I was going to wind up studying the SUSE xorg.conf file for a clue as to how to edit the file in Ubuntu, but that never became necessary.

By the way, the problem with openSUSE 10.3 on this computer was that, for some bizarre reason I couldn't launch cerain KDE applications from Fluxbox. What the hell was that about? I don't know, but running KDE from Fluxbox is sorta my thang. But the resolution was nice, so I saved the file.

So now I'm running Ubuntu, I've got everything set up juuuuuuust so, and I've got high hopes. Of course, my thang being KDE apps on Fluxbox (sometimes, I call it Kickbox), you might say that I'm not running Ubuntu, I'm actually running Fluxbuntu. Whatever you call it, I love it. The packages are reasonably fresh and up to date, but so far there's been nothing crazy happening like with Sid, which would start out beautiful but seem to get a little more askew with each upgrade. And yet, it's essentially Debian. I can use apt-get, which is quick and direct, instead of SUSE's yast, which is a great comprehensive gui adminstration tool, but which is infamous for its glacier-like slowness.

A lot of the stuff I complained about still seems valid to me. Ubuntu is set up with every thought for the clueless window user, and not a thought about the Debian user. If you come to Ubuntu from Debian, it will likely confuse and frustrate you. I'm convinced that some things could be done about that, without losing the newbie appeal. But now I've gone through all that. I understand how Ubuntu doesn't exactly work the same as Debian... but, on its own terms, it does work.

[gamblor01]

Nifty, thanks for the post. I personally did not like Ubuntu last time I tried it either, but have recently installed Gutsy and I'm quite impressed now. I still think that I am a Fedora fan for a few various reasons:

1. I learned Linux mainly on RHEL machines at work, and a Slackware box at home. I also had some SLES boxes at work, but I preferred RHEL. So some of it is just learning on RedHat based machines so I have a bias.

2. Ubuntu loads the bare minimum, and I'm not sure how to select more packages during installation. I like being able to install the development tools and what not during a Fedora installation. So while many things just compile properly in Fedora immediately after installation, I find myself having to google libraries that I need to add to Ubuntu. It's just a matter of "sudo apt-get install <libname>" once I find the correct libraries, but it's a bit of a pain. Hard drives are large and inexpensive these days. I'd rather my OS be a bit bloated with what it lays down on disk during install. No big deal if it installs 4GB of data instead of 2GB...I still have hundred of gigs available anyway.

3. Whether you think this is valid or not, I just think Fedora is prettier. The brown on brown on brown gets old in Ubuntu. I think Fedora's default theme with shades of blue is more aesthetically pleasing. Yes, I realize that I can change things in the gnome configuration.

I do think Ubuntu does a better job at assisting with installation of "third party" software though. By this I mean copyrighted material such as libraries to play mp3's, etc. In Fedora I was told I couldn't play mp3's by default and it offered some information on how to get it working, but the burden of installing such codecs is on the user. In Ubuntu it basically just said "You can't play this...yet. Click here to install the necessary codecs!" and I clicked the button and life was beautiful.

So I guess I too am coming around. I wouldn't say Ubuntu is my favorite distro, but I am definitely impressed by 7.10 and use it somewhat regularly now. Whatever floats your boat though.

[loopback48]

Although I'm a Debian fanboy (Lenny), Ubuntu was the first distro in my many years of using Linux that really sold me on Linux. And for the most useless reasons - I like the Gnome DE. Not many available at the time. One had to install it and being the lazy bastard I was - am - I keep my eye out for the Gnome centric distros.

Of course after installing and using Ubuntu from the very first release to 7.10, I knew it was the distro to watch. What a ground breaking and innovating distro!

I've gotten more geeky in my older years and so Debian Testing is the one for me. Stable is just to long in the tooth for my taste and Sid is... well, Sid. So while my main go to box has Lenny/Testing on it and that is the OS I use 99% of the time, Ubuntu will still remain one of the top notch OSs to use. I'm thinking of playing with the beta release of their 8.04.

So, OK, I'm a Debian fanboy, but damn, the Ubuntu team has done a fine job with it. So good that even my Win son has installed it on his machine. He uses Win (XP) for games only and Ubuntu of all the rest. Now how's that for an endorsement?

And that's the way I feel. Don't try to change my mind.

[blackbelt_jones]

After several months of messing around with different distros, and sort of solving my resolution problem by dumb luck. I had finally had a satisfactory Ubuntu system set up, I settled in to read a book about Ubuntu, which coinicidentally showed me the real solution to my Ubuntu resolution problem almost immediately. I didn't need to edit my xorg.conf file. I needed to run

sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg

to redo the x.org configuration, and when prompted for the BUS ID, I needed to reply with the BUS ID for the nvidia video card I wanted to use and, not the onboard intel card, and I got that information by running


sudo X :1 -scanpci

and THAT'S why you need to read the fabulous manual. Cause it saves time.

[blackbelt_jones]

2. Ubuntu loads the bare minimum, and I'm not sure how to select more packages during installation. I like being able to install the development tools and what not during a Fedora installation. So while many things just compile properly in Fedora immediately after installation, I find myself having to google libraries that I need to add to Ubuntu.

I can relate to all of that. It's got a lot to do with why I chose SUSE for a couple of years, another distro that gives you the option of choosing to add all kinds of development packages during the install.

For Debian-based distros, there's a very simple solution. But someone has to tell you about it in order for you to use it. Well today is your lucky day, cause that someone is me, and the simple solution is this:

sudo apt-get install build-essential

will load you up with just about all the major development packages, in one big sweeping command

:D You're welcome!

Incidentally, here's where I got that information, and lots of other great stuff. Remember when I said that I've learned a lot from people who were trying to shut me up? Here is the best example of that:

So anyway, install Ubuntu Feisty, read this (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~djm/ubuntu/), and quit your whining!

Thanks, Psych Major, that link (which I see has been updated for Gutsy) rocks!

[infiniphunk]

haha sell-out.

[infiniphunk]

Just kidding Black-belt, I use mainly Ubuntu and I love it.
Few days ago I just started using 8.04 beta and its pretty sweet already.
What have I been doing on my desktop these days for a laugh?
My buddy lent me a MK-4902 MIDI controller. I plug it in via MIDI-to-USB patch chord and use Aconnectgui to get it working with stuff like Zynaddsubfx and Amsynth.
I have some nice speakers on my rig and, yeah, I'm pretty sure my downstairs neighbor hates me now.

[blackbelt_jones]

3. Whether you think this is valid or not, I just think Fedora is prettier. The brown on brown on brown gets old in Ubuntu. I think Fedora's default theme with shades of blue is more aesthetically pleasing. Yes, I realize that I can change things in the gnome configuration.



The default background is pretty ugly. Those brown streaks remind me of "skid marks", but Gutsy comes with an alternative "cracked leather" background that is really quite stunning, in my opinion, at least if you've got a nice monitor.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4155/screenshotkk2.png

[gamblor01]

Thanks, Psych Major, that link (which I see has been updated for Gutsy) rocks!
Dude you're not joking! My parents are giving my brother's old computer to a friend. When I make it back to there place in about 2 months I was going to reformat and put Fedora on it. After seeing that guide I think I might put Gutsy on there and see how she does with it. Amazing guide and regardless of what I ultimately do...thanks for the link!

P.S. I think I prefer the skidmarks background to the cracked leather. ;)

[djrsml]

If you like Gutsy, you're gonna love Hardy! Although I try others, I always wind up using Debian and Ubuntu.

[Labman]

After several months of messing around with different distros, and sort of solving my resolution problem by dumb luck. I had finally had a satisfactory Ubuntu system set up, I settled in to read a book about Ubuntu, which coinicidentally showed me the real solution to my Ubuntu resolution problem almost immediately. I didn't need to edit my xorg.conf file. I needed to run

sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg

to redo the x.org configuration, and when prompted for the BUS ID, I needed to reply with the BUS ID for the nvidia video card I wanted to use and, not the onboard intel card, and I got that information by running


sudo X :1 -scanpci

and THAT'S why you need to read the fabulous manual. Cause it saves time.

OK pretty please, what is the trick. Over the weekend my SIL installed Debian on my new system, Athlon 3500+, PCChips AG13+ MB with NVIDA MCP61 on board video. I am stuck with 1280 x 1024 resolution unreadable on my 17'' Gateway 2000 EV 700. i can go into the control center and change the resolution as root, but it doesn't change.

[blackbelt_jones]

OK pretty please, what is the trick. Over the weekend my SIL installed Debian on my new system, Athlon 3500+, PCChips AG13+ MB with NVIDA MCP61 on board video. I am stuck with 1280 x 1024 resolution unreadable on my 17'' Gateway 2000 EV 700. i can go into the control center and change the resolution as root, but it doesn't change.

Well, here is what I would do, in two parts. If you're new to Linux, this is kind of involved. You're going to want to print this, or write down the essentials for part2

1. Disable gdm

Open a terminal window and type:

cd /etc/rc2.d

that will put you in the right directory. Now type:

ls *gdm*

You'll get an output that looks something like this:

S30gdm

that's the name of your link file. This is the number for Ubuntu Linux, yours will be slightly different. "Link file" probably isn't the correct name, but knowing the correct name isn't what matters.

now type: su

you'll get prompted for the root password. Type it in and hit enter, and if you did it right you'll have root access

You disable gdm by renaming the file. The way I learned to do it to change the "S" to a "K", and change the number to whatever you get when you subtract the original number from 100. The command for rename a file is "mv", (the same as the command for moving a file, don't ask me why)

so , while logged on as root, you type something like this:

mv S30gdm K70gdm

And then you reboot...


Part 2 reconfigure the X server
...and there is no xserver, no login gui. You have a black screen and a login prompt, and this is why I wanted you to print this before proceeding.

you login as root, and then you type:

dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg

This will run a reconfiguration program. You'll be prompted to answer a series of questions. Like me, you may need to run this:

X :1 -scanpci

to get some of the needed information (e.g. the BUS ID # of your video card.)

It will also help to know some things about your monitor, like the size, type, and horizontal refresh rate.

This is when you'll be asked about your resolution preferences.

When it's all over, you can log out of root by typing "exit" and log back into the console as a normal user.

Start the desktop display by typing:

startx

There a lot of cool advantages to running your desktop from the console, but if you want gdm back, change the name of the link back to what it was:

mv K70gdm S30gdm

[blackbelt_jones]

Hey, I know this is a mouthful, so let me know if any of this isn't clear. Maybe you should get your SIL (sister in law?) to help you.

[gamblor01]

Instead of disabling GDM, does it work just as well to reboot, press "esc" when the grub menu appears, and boot into "recovery" mode or whatever they call it? If I remember correctly it presents you with a root prompt to make changes.

[irlandes]

I used Mandrake/Mandriva from late 1999 until a year or so ago. I liked the general personality of the distro, and probably still do. However, I started with the attitude of paying them for the distro, to support them.

Even then I bought and paid for versions that simply did not work. They were poorly tested, and I did not have high speed Internet for support. So, I stopped paying for it. They obviously shipped the free version completely untested, and at one point publicly admitted it.

I still use their Install CD for partition work, but last year I went to Kubuntu 6.xx and now am using Kubuntu 7.04 on multi-boot computers. I prefer Konqueror file browser, and could probably make it work on Kubuntu 7.10 but did not feel like bothering at the time, so I stuck with 7.04. I even got wireless working, except on my 2wire router in Texas; works great on D-link and Linksys, though.

I use Kubuntu because Kalarm and Kstars are mandatory apps for me. I don't know if they could be run in Ubuntu, but saw no reason to find out.

Before I tried Kubuntu I tried Debian. I had heard so many wonderful things about it from its fanatics. There was no driver for my NIC. The only way to install it was via floppy, and that computer, like most modern computers, had no floppy drive.

I found a forum which covered debian, and the only response I got was a very insulting posting with the implication the fault was mine, because I had not "done adequate research."

I had to think about that. To me, it seemed the failure was the debian's team failure to install a common NIC driver, or to fail to provide some other means of installing it besides floppy. After some thought, I realized these fanatics actually assumed that everyone bought or built a computer just so they could run the great and wonderful and superior debian. Sorry, sports fans, that is not the case. Most Linux users install Linux on an existing machine.

I do not expect to ever try debian again, more because of the snotty attitude than the poor build. There are too many other superior distros, and the fact that many of them are derived from debian does not mean we might as well go to debian.

Ubuntu forums are also much nicer and make one glad to have posted there. In most cases, a Google finds the answer already posted there.

I tried when I was back in the States PCLinuxOs, but it would not control my touch pad mouse properly.

[blackbelt_jones]

Instead of disabling GDM, does it work just as well to reboot, press "esc" when the grub menu appears, and boot into "recovery" mode or whatever they call it? If I remember correctly it presents you with a root prompt to make changes.

That makes sense to me, now that you mention it. Sorry for not thinking about that. By all means, give it a try.

[gamblor01]

Yeah I just tried it and that's exactly what it does...gives you a root prompt. That might be a simpler way to get to a root prompt and fix the display instead of moving all of those files around to disable the GDM. It might also work just as well to press ctrl+alt+F2 and use the prompt there.

Fortunately for me I don't have any resolution problems...so I don't need to do any of that stuff. :)

[Labman]

Maybe I will get up the guts to try it tomorrow.

[IsaacKuo]

Yeah, yeah, yet another distro hop. I'm shocked! I didn't see that one coming! Hehe.

I'm still using Debian Stable; started on Sarge when it was Testing (thanks to SOMEONE's constant ravings about it, at the time); went to Etch. I have no plans to convert to Lenny until it goes stable.

But I did put Ubuntu onto a laptop I just got. I didn't feel like doing all of my usual customizations on it, I just wanted a simple setup that would provide functionality out-of-box. And it's my first computer with wireless networking, which I know squat about. And I like showing off the wobbly warpy windows of Compiz/Beryl, and didn't feel like the effort of installing it on Etch.

Well, what can I say--I'm pretty happy with Ubuntu on the laptop. I just had to do some obscure manual editing of /boot/grub/menu.lst in order to get the console to be visible and somehow this reduced boot times from ~10 minutes down to a "normal" amount (I think it hangs for several minutes when it can't display the boot splash, and from then on the text console is invisible, leaving no indication that the machine is doing anything until gdm finally appears).

But there's nothing about Ubuntu which would make me switch from Debian Stable for my other workstations. I do NOT like lots of constant updates. That's fine for this laptop which isn't heavily customized and which I can simply reinstall whenever I feel like. But my other systems are tweaked out and customized for diskless net-booting and all sorts of fun stuff.

[gamblor01]

This is somewhat off topic, but...hey blackbelt -- where did you find the hard drive icon in your screen shot? My Fedora system uses that icon and I really like it, but I can't seem to figure out where it's at so that I can use it on my Ubuntu system. I have looked all over /usr/share/icons but haven't found it so far. Think you can tell me where to look? :D

Also...Dexter is a great show. We bought the season 1 DVDs. I'm looking forward to Season 2!

[gamblor01]

Nevermind...I found the icon under /usr/share/icons/gnome/scalable. Now I'm quite happy with my Ubuntu partition. In fact, I'm so happy with it that I repartitioned to double it's size (as I have a feeling I'm going to be using it much more often), and reinstalled.

Anyway, I just got The Orange Box installed via wine and configured it so that it's perfectly playable. Oddly enough, it doesn't run as nice as my Windows box (i.e. frame rate) once the game is loaded, but it loads the games considerably faster than Windows does. I guess I'll go write up a how to because there were some options that would've been nice to see in one big how-to.

[blackbelt_jones]

Yeah, yeah, yet another distro hop. I'm shocked! I didn't see that one coming! Hehe.

I'm still using Debian Stable; started on Sarge when it was Testing (thanks to SOMEONE's constant ravings about it, at the time); went to Etch. I have no plans to convert to Lenny until it goes stable.

But I did put Ubuntu onto a laptop I just got. I didn't feel like doing all of my usual customizations on it, I just wanted a simple setup that would provide functionality out-of-box. And it's my first computer with wireless networking, which I know squat about. And I like showing off the wobbly warpy windows of Compiz/Beryl, and didn't feel like the effort of installing it on Etch.

Well, what can I say--I'm pretty happy with Ubuntu on the laptop. I just had to do some obscure manual editing of /boot/grub/menu.lst in order to get the console to be visible and somehow this reduced boot times from ~10 minutes down to a "normal" amount (I think it hangs for several minutes when it can't display the boot splash, and from then on the text console is invisible, leaving no indication that the machine is doing anything until gdm finally appears).

But there's nothing about Ubuntu which would make me switch from Debian Stable for my other workstations. I do NOT like lots of constant updates. That's fine for this laptop which isn't heavily customized and which I can simply reinstall whenever I feel like. But my other systems are tweaked out and customized for diskless net-booting and all sorts of fun stuff.

By the way, I think my reputation for distro-hopping is greatly exaggerated. I like to try stuff out, but since I fell in love with Debian Sarge four years ago (when it was testing), I've switched maybe once a year... from Debian to SUSE, back to Debain, and now to Ubuntu.

I think you and I may be pretty much on the same page. I'm a hobbyist, my computer is mostly about entertainment and education. If I had any servers or any serious mission-critical computers, I'd probably stick with Etch. I do like to get a look at what's new, but Sid is problematic for me. I keep breaking it. Maybe when I know more about administration. God help me, I believe I'm no longer the dumbest person in here... but I'm still a slow learner.

The truth is, ever since I started using Debian, I've been a Debian man. I only stopped using Debian and started using SUSE because there were things I didn't know how to with Debian, and when I learned them, I returned. And you can expect me to stay within the Debian family for a long, long time. So much software, so easy to get! It may be called Ubuntu, Kanotix, Mepis, Lenny, or Sid... but it will always be Debian to me.

[blackbelt_jones]

This is somewhat off topic, but...hey blackbelt -- where did you find the hard drive icon in your screen shot? My Fedora system uses that icon and I really like it, but I can't seem to figure out where it's at so that I can use it on my Ubuntu system. I have looked all over /usr/share/icons but haven't found it so far. Think you can tell me where to look? :D

Also...Dexter is a great show. We bought the season 1 DVDs. I'm looking forward to Season 2!

It is a rather nice looking icon. I just appeared there. If you're getting something else, you can try playiing with themes, or if you really want it that bad, maybe try the find command:

oscar@ubuntcake:~$ cd /
oscar@ubuntcake:/$ sudo find -name *.ico -print
oscar@ubuntcake:/$ sudo find -name *.png -print

I'll look for it myself when I get the chance, but this is a pretty horrific hectic weekend for me.

[blackbelt_jones]

Nevermind...I found the icon under /usr/share/icons/gnome/scalable.

D'oh!:rolleyes:

[IsaacKuo]

By the way, I think my reputation for distro-hopping is greatly exaggerated. I like to try stuff out, but since I fell in love with Debian Sarge four years ago (when it was testing), I've switched maybe once a year... from Debian to SUSE, back to Debain, and now to Ubuntu.

Yes, but I guess it's the way you switch that's amusing to us. Anyway, switching once a year is pretty often. Most of us are simply too lazy to switch that often, even if we wanted to.

[blackbelt_jones]

Well, it's like Oscar WIlde said, the only think worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

I don't blame anyone for being amused and entertained by my distro adventures... that's one reason why I like to share them. But when I look back over it all, if you count Kanotix as a Debian, and Mepis as a Debian, and Ubuntu as a Debian, I've mostly been about Debian. Debian is number 1.


I have a number 2, and that's Slackware. I have a really slow machine, and I'm running Vector Linux on that, because certain essential applications keep crashing on Debian. Slackware is a great taking-care-of-business disto for me. For some reason, when I use Slackware, I become very productive. Someday, I'd like to install Slackware on an old laptop, and use it just for writing.

I no longer have any personal interest in SUSE, but it was a great newbie distro for me, and I'll bet it makes a great choice for business, because everyone in the organization can run it. YAST makes administration super accessable. I still admire SUSE, but it's not for me.

Maybe the point is that I have learned something from my wanderings, and these days I have less and less urge to wander. I used to check out every Fedora release, but I stopped after FC5. Mandriva? I don't think so.

[mrrangerman43]

IsaacKuo

Well, what can I say--I'm pretty happy with Ubuntu on the laptop. I just had to do some obscure manual editing of /boot/grub/menu.lst in order to get the console to be visible and somehow this reduced boot times from ~10 minutes down to a "normal" amount (I think it hangs for several minutes when it can't display the boot splash, and from then on the text console is invisible, leaving no indication that the machine is doing anything until gdm finally appears).

I have a system that did the same thing, can you post what you did to correct it?

Maybe just post that part of your menu.lst

thanks
Dan

[IsaacKuo]

I don't remember exactly, but I think I removed the "quiet" and "bootsplash" options from the relevant boot line in /boot/grub/menu.lst.

[IsaacKuo]

But when I look back over it all, if you count Kanotix as a Debian, and Mepis as a Debian, and Ubuntu as a Debian,

I don't. Sure, they use the same package management system and are largely compatable with each other. But when it comes right down to it, they all have their own quirks so when you install a new one you've got to figure out all the annoying things they do differently (for example, everyone seems to have different ideas of what ought to be the default status of ssh and su/sudo). Most of us are too lazy to go through the effort.

[blackbelt_jones]

I don't. Sure, they use the same package management system and are largely compatable with each other. But when it comes right down to it, they all have their own quirks so when you install a new one you've got to figure out all the annoying things they do differently (for example, everyone seems to have different ideas of what ought to be the default status of ssh and su/sudo). Most of us are too lazy to go through the effort.

Well, this is all semantics. I really think that you and I see eye to eye on the nuts and bolts of this stuff as much as anyone in here. After all, you like Ubuntu, too, on your laptop.

In my experience, Sid and Etch each have their own distinctive and annoying quirks, and they're both Debian. And Kanotix and Sidux are both conscious attempts to put Debian on a live CD with a capability for a good solid hard drive install, the same product in a different package.

And, lord knows, I have gone on and on in here like an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn, kvetching about the annoying little quirks of Ubuntu. I've contacted the developers about this, about this, and someday, I hope they make those few changes that will make Ubuntu more approachable to Debian users, but it's not hard to see why the Windows users have been the first priority. The problem with Ubuntu is that it looks and feels so much like Debain, that a Debian user will be led astray. Frankly, I can't remember what they were at this time, but like I saidI have written about this before.

But the point of this thread is that overcoming these annoyances has been worthwhile for me. Ubuntu is working out for me, and as a Debian fan, it pleases me that the first real desktop breakout distro superstar is Debian-based. The fact that Debian has been the father of such important innovations (consider Knoppix!) while staying true to free software principles is a big reason why it is the greatest distro ever.

Someday, if keep getting better at this, I may start using SID... but right now, upgrading SID keeps getting me into trouble, and after almost six years, and a number of installs that I could only guess at (but if i could tell you, you would know that I am crazy), I don't want to reinstall my system any more than I have to. Ubuntu may better suited to my current wants, needs, and abilities, but Debian GNU/Linux (the only major distro I know with the integrity to put the "GNU" right there in its official name) has always been King, as far as I'm concerned, and always will be.

[IsaacKuo]

After all, you like Ubuntu, too, on your laptop.

I really didn't get to know Ubuntu well enough to form an opinion of it. I've already wiped out Ubuntu on this laptop; replaced with a clean install of gOS Space (it's based on Ubuntu, but I wouldn't judge Ubuntu based on my experiences with it).

[blackbelt_jones]

I really didn't get to know Ubuntu well enough to form an opinion of it. I've already wiped out Ubuntu on this laptop; replaced with a clean install of gOS Space (it's based on Ubuntu, but I wouldn't judge Ubuntu based on my experiences with it).

I didn't like gOS at all. The idea of using Google apps to do everything seems interesting, but I didn't like being trapped in it. Once I installed KDE (cause I love KDE applications), gOS turned i9nto Kubuntu, and there was no getting back to the gOS desktop. Kubuntu became the default. At least that was how it seemed at the time. I lost interest pretty quick. Maybe if I understood enlightenment better, it wouldn't seem like such a straightjacket. A few icons on a KDE or a Gnome desktop would have performed the same function without taking away choices from the user. I understand that the next version of gOS will be based on Gnome instead of enlightenment; that might be more interesting.

[IsaacKuo]

gOS Space is the "next" version of gOS, and it does indeed use a GNOME desktop.

[MkIII_Supra]

I find myself doing the same thing. Right now I am on OpenSuSE 10.3 on all my systems.

Work I have a Dell GX260 that I run OpenSuSE 10.3 on. It's a little sluggish and since it's a work system I don't have time to futz with trying to get another WM set-up the way I like it. Which is why I use KDE. It has a lot of features that I enjoy and don't want to give up. I find Gnome to limited. Personal preference.

My home system runs OpenSuSE 10.3 as well. I just erased PCLinuxOS and reinstalled OpenSuSE 10.3 12 days ago. So far it's performing pretty well. I haven't tested the DVD Movie creation with ManDVD yet.

And I just bought a Lenovo T61 that came with SLED 10 (SP2). But after two days with the Gnome interface I slicked it and installed OpenSuSE 10.3. One other problem I had was the damn login manager would crash and I would have to log in via command line then issue the startx command. And I noticed that OpenSuSE is doing the same thing.

Otherwise it's pretty stable. I really like the OpenSuSE package management system (SLED is great for a business, but for me... I no like so much...), but I like the speed of Linux Mint, problem is Linux Mint doesn't have a 64 bit version, and with the exception of my work system I am running all 64 bit.

Oh, and one more thing that I just for the life of me cannot figure out... remember a while back I was posting asking for some help with fonts and java application we use at work? Well I still haven't gotten it fixed on my work system. But my laptop and my home systems both display the fonts correctly. I am really stumped by that, because when I checked the installed packages all 3 systems are almost identical.

And like you I whine and complain about Linux too. But in the end I stick it out and something happens and I either fix the issue or it gets patched. But since like you I don't ***** in public either, this is my forum to let go of my frustrations. :D

[irlandes]

I don't know if it's ethical to comment on signatures. In 1978, I got a different position in our company. The man whose place I took rode his bicycle to work, and got creamed by a semi-truck who was blinded by the rising sun. There are greater issues than CO2 and cost of gas. I suppose if you have a safe route with minimal conflict with heavy traffic, it is a good idea.

[infiniphunk]

when I used to work for Computer Services at Confederation college I knew the guy who was the head network technician...a dude who was close to retirement - he knows UNIX that's what he's always worked with - and was getting into linux, anyway I know he rode his bike to work, it takes strength.

again, I'm using Ubuntu 8.04 beta, and it IS the most usable linux to me yet. I'm having a hard time believing there can be a better OS out there. I doubt it.

[MkIII_Supra]

I don't know if it's ethical to comment on signatures. In 1978, I got a different position in our company. The man whose place I took rode his bicycle to work, and got creamed by a semi-truck who was blinded by the rising sun. There are greater issues than CO2 and cost of gas. I suppose if you have a safe route with minimal conflict with heavy traffic, it is a good idea.

Your concern is noted, but having survived 9 combat actions, traffic is a cake walk. I live in a bike aware community. Although accidents do happen, it's generally because both parties failed to be responsible and aware.

There is more than just the curbing of CO2, there is the real fact that gas will be hitting $4.00/gal in two months or so. I drive a truck, which on the best days will get 26-27MPG, but averages about 24MPG... then there is the health impact of NOT exercising. At 40 (soon to be 41) I am in better shape than I have ever been. With a resting heart rate of 59BPM and a blood pressure of 112/62 I think that is good enough reason to keep on peddling and running. Since being healthy also means fewer doctors visits and fewer injuries and faster recovery from flu's and injuries that may occur. On average I get sick once every other year... it lasts for about 2-3 days then I am over it an off and running again. I know it's the combination of healthy diet and lots of exercise.

Exercise has so many benefits... take sex for instance. I know I enjoy it and I like it a lot. Being healthy I am able to have both without medical aids, like a lot of other men my age and even younger now! Comes down to what is important to you I suppose.

For me, it's being healthy and feeling good. It's about enjoying life and reducing my negative impact on the environment as much as possible. Since after all, anything negative I do to the very system that I rely on to live... I do to myself, my family and people around me I care about. Just another way of looking at what we do in life.

[irlandes]

Your concern is noted, but having survived 9 combat actions, traffic is a cake walk. I live in a bike aware community. Although accidents do happen, it's generally because both parties failed to be responsible and aware.

There is more than just the curbing of CO2, there is the real fact that gas will be hitting $4.00/gal in two months or so. I drive a truck, which on the best days will get 26-27MPG, but averages about 24MPG... then there is the health impact of NOT exercising. At 40 (soon to be 41) I am in better shape than I have ever been. With a resting heart rate of 59BPM and a blood pressure of 112/62 I think that is good enough reason to keep on peddling and running. Since being healthy also means fewer doctors visits and fewer injuries and faster recovery from flu's and injuries that may occur. On average I get sick once every other year... it lasts for about 2-3 days then I am over it an off and running again. I know it's the combination of healthy diet and lots of exercise.

Exercise has so many benefits... take sex for instance. I know I enjoy it and I like it a lot. Being healthy I am able to have both without medical aids, like a lot of other men my age and even younger now! Comes down to what is important to you I suppose.

For me, it's being healthy and feeling good. It's about enjoying life and reducing my negative impact on the environment as much as possible. Since after all, anything negative I do to the very system that I rely on to live... I do to myself, my family and people around me I care about. Just another way of looking at what we do in life.

Sorry to digress like this from the topic at hand. Linux below in this posting.

Ahem, I am 66. Three years ago, I was getting in bad shape. My daughter started me on the Atkins Diet. I am hypoglycemic so I only lost 2 pounds a month, and stopped about ten pounds short of ideal weight.

My b.p. is now typically 105/65; before it was 135/75.

As far as the other topic, Atkins developed it to clean out veins and arteries, and weight loss is secondary. Improved blood flow is what makes that particular system work, and mine is like it was in my thirties. YEEEEE--HAHHHH!!!

I live mostly in the mountains of Mexico, and go for long walks over the mountains. Even much younger men tell me my times are good for any age. Roughly three miles, (pardon the pun, it is very rough) with around a 600 foot climb, over loose rocks and keeping a look-out for dynamiters in the quarries, an hour and 25 minutes. I also dig holes in the ground when they are needed; cut trees; (MKIII wouldn't like what I do with those trees in my fireplace during the cold month :) )and grub brush.

I am trying to understand what a woman told me yesterday in her store. She started to say something, but someone came into her store, and she quickly changed the subject. But, I think, <deep breathing exercises>, she was asking me if I wanted a mistress, the only word I really understood perfectly is a colloquial expression they use in this part of Mexico for a mistress) referring to the young lovely who worked for her last year, so I am guessing that girl found herself with a kid and no husband. Yes, of course, but my wife of 33 years might not understand. :)

In the US and UK this sounds preposterous. But, I know a retired engineer not far away who when he was 78 years old, had two kids with his 26 year old mistress. When his kids, twice her age, found out, there was a tremendous fuss, not to even mention how his wife reacted. They thought he was living out here in the sticks, hobbling around on his cane and sitting in the sun, waiting to die. He would have got away with it forever, but he forgot to go home for Christmas!!!!!!!!! :D

Joint problems are common in older folks. Walking on level ground is bad for them. I live on a mountain side, and my joints are great because the angle of my joints is constantly changing, plus I use flatfoot inserts. One week on level streets in Mexico City and I start limping around.

My hobby here is, guess what? Heh, heh. Linux. I feel schizoidal at times. We have neighbors who live in houses made of sticks with palm stuff for a roof; little kids walk by dragging machetes as long as themselves, and here I sit with DSL via the microwave repeater, and three computers, which thanks to Saikee means a lot of Linux distros loaded up and ready for my latest whim.

Last night, I downloaded Freespire 2.0.8. I sort of doubt I am going to like it better than Kubuntu, but like Blackbelt, it isn't bad to try a different distro once in a while. Next, I may try CentOs again, though I am a KDE fan.

I used Mandrake/Mandriva from 1999 (see my registration date in this posting) until last year. Mandriva simply had too many defects. It was apparent the free version went out totally untested, and a few years ago, Mandriva admitted that was the case. Someone wrote a nasty review, and Mandriva said it wasn't fair to review an 'untested' free version.

Originally, I paid for it, but the paid versions before 8.x also had too many errors, so they lost a paying customer. Now, they lost a non-paying customer as well. I used LyX in 8.x to make a book from my Letters From The Army for my kids, since only one can get the originals. With index, page numbers, chapters, and all.

I do keep a later Install CD around, because Mandriva has a really user friendly partition utility. It takes that NTFS stuff running clear across the HD and compresses it into the new smaller NTFS partition, slicker than snail slime.

At my age, one worries about unexpected health problems, and things like Alzheimers. My theory is if you catch me using Windows, it is a bad sign. :cool:

I shouldn't say that -- though it is probably the truth. I just bought a new laptop, Dell Vostro 1000, $449. And, that XP loaded in it is the best OS I have ever seen from MS. Loaded Zone Alarm and Avast. Comes up quick; shuts down quick. Still after one month of use before I installed Kubuntu 7.04, I scanned for spyware and it had 56 invasions to be removed. Blechhhh!

Seriously, the Atkins Diet and plenty of exercise here in the mountains for physical health, and Linux to keep my neurons working.

[blackbelt_jones]

I don't know if it's ethical to comment on signatures. In 1978, I got a different position in our company. The man whose place I took rode his bicycle to work, and got creamed by a semi-truck who was blinded by the rising sun. There are greater issues than CO2 and cost of gas. I suppose if you have a safe route with minimal conflict with heavy traffic, it is a good idea.

And no one ever gets killed driving a car? (sigh)

We don't really want to talk about this, do we? If there's a moderator out there, I think maybe it's time to close this thread.

[blackbelt_jones]

gOS Space is the "next" version of gOS, and it does indeed use a GNOME desktop.

I hope you'll post a brief review of your experience in ISOconfused. Does it still come in a live CD?

[irlandes]

And no one ever gets killed driving a car? (sigh)

We don't really want to talk about this, do we? If there's a moderator out there, I think maybe it's time to close this thread.

I suppose you are right, yet traffic is so far down on this board compared to what it was in the past, it makes one wonder if closing threads for enthusiastic discussions that are off-topic is good for the board or bad for the board. I suppose it depends upon whether the economic model is click driven as is common on other URL's.

If you look at the summary, there were only 8 threads listed for 4/18. That seems to be typical these days. This URL has become almost a private board for a very small number of participants. In fact, such an event is part of the life cycle for a message board, from boom to bust. As bust approaches, the few who most often post, become very protective of what is essentially their turf and this adds to the collapse.

Does anyone else remember when there were zillions of postings a day? Back then the board needed strict discipline due to the large numbers of postings, and the large numbers of newbie participants made high levels of flames for almost any honest disagreement.

I could not have learned Linux without this URL, for a fact. There wasn't much choice in those days; today there are a lot of message boards, really hot ones.

We had IT people who posted their work problems here, and checked back in an hour or two, and almost always the answer was there. With MS problems, they'd still be on hold, no joke.

By far the most helpful for those on K/Ubuntu are their forums. In most cases, one need only Google and the question has been answered on the forums.

This particular thread digression resulted from a signature on a posting, not a random jumping over the traces.

[IsaacKuo]

I hope you'll post a brief review of your experience in ISOconfused. Does it still come in a live CD?

It's still a live CD, and it's generally very Ubuntu-like as far as I can tell. As far as I can tell, it's really only a slightly customized Ubuntu. But I'm really not familiar enough with Ubuntu to make that call.

That's the thing. I'd only post a review if I were familiar enough with Ubuntu to point out the differences. The real question is--why install gOS Space instead of Ubuntu? And more importantly, why not? What are the things which work in Ubuntu which are broken in gOS Space? I don't know. I'm having problems with 3d desktop effects...but my only point of reference is manually installed Beryl on Debian Stable.

[GmarAppledude]

I guess his is kind of a Gnome post.

I've been using Ubuntu for about a week now and don't find myself wanting to install KDE in a hurry. It's been a good enough user experience to stick with. I have put a few fave KDE apps on there which have worked fine also. I guess Ubuntu is what I will stick with for now. Enbraced, hmmm maybe?

[blackbelt_jones]

I suppose you are right, yet traffic is so far down on this board compared to what it was in the past, it makes one wonder if closing threads for enthusiastic discussions that are off-topic is good for the board or bad for the board, and off-topic. I suppose it depends upon whether the economic model is click driven as is common on other URL's.

I don't know if you were here back in the bad old days when this site was linuxnewbie.org, and random discussions were permitted. It was a snakepit in here. I can remember when someone started a thread about whether or not Islam is evil. Which sucks if you're a muslim who wants to learn about Linux. Someone made a conscious decision to change the format, the new domain name spelled it out, and ever since then, this has been strictly enforced. This has been a slower, quieter, but more helpful place.

[irlandes]

I think gOS 1 used a very light window manager, which made it practical for machines light on RAM, using much less RAM than Ubuntu.

Most folks aren't aware that Mandrake made a special version of 7.03, possibly Air, which was compiled for a minimal 486 machine yet supplied a usable KDE. It was different from 7.03 normal version.

I know Puppy, which tends to run around 70MB total, and has modern goodies in it, will run with minimal RAM if you have a swap partition, but am not sure it will run on a 486. With Puppy, you can run it as a pure Live CD, or put a small file for storage on almost any partition if you wish.

It is amazing what all can be done with Linux!

Pre-Knoppix, I used to run live floppy, ala live CD, but a live Linux on a floppy. I understand it was possible to run a 486 as a server, but all I used it for was dc, the powerful Reverse Polish calculator, up to 1,000 digit square roots or math stuff.

[irlandes]

I don't know if you were here back in the bad old days when this site was linuxnewbie.org, and random discussions were permitted. It was a snakepit in here. I can remember when someone started a thread about whether or not Islam is evil. Which sucks if you're a muslim who wants to learn about Linux. Someone made a conscious decision to change the format, the new domain name spelled it out, and ever since then, this has been strictly enforced. This has been a slower, quieter, but more helpful place.

Yes, in those days they had a Random/dev thread just for that stuff. Due to the high traffic it was bad. Too much work for the moderators.

Your "slower, quieter, but more helpful place" is spelled d-e-a-d to me. While the few folks still here do their best, it is NOT that helpful any more, because there is just not enough participation here any more. If one or two people know the answer you will get it; if not forget it. It is common to have maybe a posting an hour, or less.

It is like a high school with only 13 kids out for varsity football. No matter how hard they try they can't win anything.

I mean no disrespect at all to you, Blackbelt. I watched you come from nothing to a formidable Linux geek. I have told you so several times. It has been interesting watching your change and growth.

However, this has essentially become an almost private board for you and several other people, but mostly you. I understand that it gives you warm fuzzies to have your own private linux board, and if the owners can pay the bills with almost no traffic, and want to let you have it as a private board, it's their board.

I do believe in the Golden Rule, which is whoever owns the Gold rules. That means if I don't like the rules here, I can leave, or start my own board, period. There is no third choice under the Golden Rule.

I don't know why this board collapsed. It isn't a lack of Linux questions. Take a look at www.linuxquestions.org. It has a very large number of postings every day, much as justlinux did at one time.

In fact, this exchange motivated me to go back there. I come here strictly for nostalgic reasons, and the low traffic means much less help. Now that I am back in sync with them, I will more likely take future postings there, though I may look to answer questions here if I can, since they are all on the summary at a glance.

It is interesting that it is you who is complaining about off-topic discussions, which were more digressions than off-topic threads, based on a signature comment, not the moderators. This is all part of the private board mode of a collapsing board, where certain regulars become possessive, which tends to gradually drive the few remaining participants away.

I repeat that I mean no disrespect for you at all, nor for the moderators. But, it is a fact this board is nearly dead in comparison to what it once was. In the last 11 years, I have seen all this many times on different boards of various types. At one point, I had an essay someone wrote explaining the cycle of a board, and this board fits into the collapsing mode part of it.

[MkIII_Supra]

Hostile posts and replies most like the cause... or as in my case, time is an issue.

[IsaacKuo]

I don't know why this board collapsed. It isn't a lack of Linux questions. Take a look at www.linuxquestions.org. It has a very large number of postings every day, much as justlinux did at one time.

As far back as I knew of the existence of www.linuxquestions.org, it had much more traffic than this site (I can't remember whether this was before the switch from linuxnewbie).

As far as I know, linuxquestions has always been bigger, and this has not always been a good thing. It's too easy for a posting on linuxquestions to get lost into a black hole of no longer being in the first one or two or six pages. And sometimes I get very frustrated browsing linuxquestions because of all the wrong answers that really need correction (but heck, I don't have the time to correct them all). That said, it's still usually my first choice for getting help with a problem.

[blackbelt_jones]

Yes, in those days they had a Random/dev thread just for that stuff. Due to the high traffic it was bad. Too much work for the moderators.

Your "slower, quieter, but more helpful place" is spelled d-e-a-d to me. While the few folks still here do their best, it is NOT that helpful any more, because there is just not enough participation here any more. If one or two people know the answer you will get it; if not forget it. It is common to have maybe a posting an hour, or less.

It is like a high school with only 13 kids out for varsity football. No matter how hard they try they can't win anything.

I mean no disrespect at all to you, Blackbelt. I watched you come from nothing to a formidable Linux geek. I have told you so several times. It has been interesting watching your change and growth.

However, this has essentially become an almost private board for you and several other people, but mostly you. I understand that it gives you warm fuzzies to have your own private linux board, and if the owners can pay the bills with almost no traffic, and want to let you have it as a private board, it's their board.

I do believe in the Golden Rule, which is whoever owns the Gold rules. That means if I don't like the rules here, I can leave, or start my own board, period. There is no third choice under the Golden Rule.

I don't know why this board collapsed. It isn't a lack of Linux questions. Take a look at www.linuxquestions.org. It has a very large number of postings every day, much as justlinux did at one time.

In fact, this exchange motivated me to go back there. I come here strictly for nostalgic reasons, and the low traffic means much less help. Now that I am back in sync with them, I will more likely take future postings there, though I may look to answer questions here if I can, since they are all on the summary at a glance.

It is interesting that it is you who is complaining about off-topic discussions, which were more digressions than off-topic threads, based on a signature comment, not the moderators. This is all part of the private board mode of a collapsing board, where certain regulars become possessive, which tends to gradually drive the few remaining participants away.

I repeat that I mean no disrespect for you at all, nor for the moderators. But, it is a fact this board is nearly dead in comparison to what it once was. In the last 11 years, I have seen all this many times on different boards of various types. At one point, I had an essay someone wrote explaining the cycle of a board, and this board fits into the collapsing mode part of it.


Well, I'm not a moderator, so it's not my decision, but I do like it this way. I like the fact that I'm not going to get into a dumb political argument here. Don't get me wrong. I like to get into dumb political arguments, and I do it a lot, though not as much as I used to. It's nice that there's someplace where I can be sure that isn't going to happen,

Anybody who doesn't like me making this my own private blog can post more often... please! I'm just trying to contribute to keeping this site active and alive, out of many of the same concerns you just touched upon.

[blackbelt_jones]

Actually, when you consider the advertising, it appears that for the most part Microsoft is paying for me to use this as my own private Linux blog... and now that you mention it, yes, that thought does give me the warm and fuzzies, you bet your warm, fuzzy ***!

But getting back to Ubuntu... I just installed Hardy Heron, the latest release candidate. (The actual release is scheduled for tomorrow) I'm still setting it up (installing KDE and fluxbox) but I immediately noticed vastly improved hardware detection and what may be (i.e. to the best of my recollection) the first improvement to the debian-installer program since it first became available. (I used the "alternative" , non-live cd.)

Also, this is my first look at Firefox 3... yow! Mongo like candy!

[gamblor01]

Actually, when you consider the advertising, it appears that for the most part Microsoft is paying for me to use this as my own private Linux blog... and now that you mention it, yes, that thought does give me the warm and fuzzies, you bet your warm, fuzzy ***!

But getting back to Ubuntu... I just installed Hardy Heron, the latest release candidate. (The actual release is scheduled for tomorrow) I'm still setting it up (installing KDE and fluxbox) but I immediately noticed vastly improved hardware detection and what may be (i.e. to the best of my recollection) the first improvement to the debian-installer program since it first became available. (I used the "alternative" , non-live cd.)

Also, this is my first look at Firefox 3... yow! Mongo like candy!

I installed the official Hardy release yesterday....

and here I am getting all of the updates for Gutsy again. I wound up reformatting and reinstalling Gutsy. I just had too many problems with Hardy:

1. I kept having problems with bonobo not being properly killed when a gnome session ended. It seemed like every other time I would login I would get an error message that nautilus couldn't start. The details would say some error about bonobo and I would have to ctrl+alt+backspace (sometimes a few times) before it would finally die properly and let me login to gnome again with nautilus active.

2. Right-clicking on certain things caused my entire system to lock up. It seemed fairly specific to my Fedora partition's icon on the desktop. Right-click that icon and go into properties and gnome locks up. Tried ctrl+alt+backspace and it gave me a bunch of errors. I tried to go to another tty but it would only accept my user id and never prompt for my password. Thus, I could never login and kill any errant processes.

Furthermore, the hard drive LED on my system would be SOLID. The only thing I was able to do was hit the reset button and start all over.

3. 3D applications in Wine just crashed. For example, I could start Steam in Wine but when I tried to play Half-life 2 or one of the mods (like Team Fortress 2) Steam would just crash.

4. Firefox 3...yuk. I didn't like the theme it had at all, and I couldn't change it. I went into the preferences and tried to change the theme back to firefox 2 but it said that's what it was already set at. However, none of the buttons were available to click! I don't like being forced to run beta software, so I didn't like that Ubuntu bundled this in without an option.

http://slackbox.homelinux.org/screenshot.png

I also don't like the new drop-down menu when you start typing an address in the URL bar.

http://slackbox.homelinux.org/screenshot2.png

I played around in about:config but couldn't get it to behave like Firefox 2 (where it has the URL on the left and the description on the right side). I downloaded and untar'ed Firefox 2 but everytime I would run ./firefox it would just launch firefox 3 again. I didn't feel like figuring out why.

I did really like the new Hardy wallpaper though! Ultimately however, there were just too many things that broke and I didn't feel like spending the time to fix them. So for now I'm going to continue to run Gutsy and I'll try again in the future.

[IsaacKuo]

4. Firefox 3...yuk. I didn't like the theme it had at all, and I couldn't change it. I went into the preferences and tried to change the theme back to firefox 2 but it said that's what it was already set at. However, none of the buttons were available to click! I don't like being forced to run beta software, so I didn't like that Ubuntu bundled this in without an option.

http://slackbox.homelinux.org/screenshot.png

I'm not sure you understand what the default Firefox theme does. It essentially just uses the GNOME/gtk-2.0 theme. So to change the icons and such, you need to change the desktop's icon theme (if you're using GNOME).

I also don't like the new drop-down menu when you start typing an address in the URL bar.

I'd guess that's one of those things that you'd just have to get used to.

[blackbelt_jones]

Well, I read a bad review of Hardy Today, so you're not alone.

Firefox has a theme? I never thought about it. I like the drop-down menu, but what I really like is the more detailed, searchable history. I'm already wondering how I ever got along without it.

One thing I don't like about Hardy is they changed the default editor for visudo from nano to vim. I don't know how to use vim, and I'll be damned if I'll learn just so I can edit one file. Of course, this isn't hard to fix, if you know how.

[IsaacKuo]

Funny, that's what I think about any distribution that uses something other than "vi" as the default editor. Heck "vi" is in the NAME of visudo!

[irlandes]

Well, I read a bad review of Hardy Today, so you're not alone.

Firefox has a theme? I never thought about it. I like the drop-down menu, but what I really like is the more detailed, searchable history. I'm already wondering how I ever got along without it.

One thing I don't like about Hardy is they changed the default editor for visudo from nano to vim. I don't know how to use vim, and I'll be damned if I'll learn just so I can edit one file. Of course, this isn't hard to fix, if you know how.

The problem is when you don't use something whose operation is not obvious -- and vi's is not -- very much, you forget. I realize some folks use it all the time, and its use becomes second nature. But, that comes under what I call personal preference, not a universal best choice.

I have built a command file, I call it, where I put in actual commands for actual functions I use, as opposed to man files which list everything and thus are of lesser value. I open it in KDE, and if I need vi can look at the instructions. Still when I haven't used it in months, it takes time to re-learn.

I also have a special orange wire-wound notebook with some of the most important commands built up for my use, and the vi basics are there.

Back in Mandrake 9.x days when one had to build his own xorg.conf I used vi a lot. Until recently, when I installed Freespire 2.0.8, and it gave a bad xorg.conf I had not had to build one in years.

In this case, I had Kubuntu 6.10 on the same computer, so I just moved its xorg.conf over. Freespire needs some work. they are like re-inventing the wheel.

[gamblor01]

The problem is when you don't use something whose operation is not obvious -- and vi's is not -- very much, you forget. I realize some folks use it all the time, and its use becomes second nature. But, that comes under what I call personal preference, not a universal best choice.


I 100% agree with you. vi is VERY confusing for someone who has never used it before, as is emacs. These are particularly confusing for users who are used to editing files in a GUI editor such as notepad/wordpad or gedit. Both vim and emacs include a plethora of keyboard shortcuts, and yet you need to be savvy enough to know them to get anything done!

I guess I use vi/vim often enough to remember what I need. The basics aren't difficult:

x - deletes a character
dd - deletes a line (p - to paste it later)
:q - quits
:w - writes the file
/ - search
:37 - goes to line 37; replace 37 with any other number to go to that line
shift+g - go to the last line of the file

You can do a majority of what you need with just those few. ;)



One thing I don't like about Hardy is they changed the default editor for visudo from nano to vim. I don't know how to use vim, and I'll be damned if I'll learn just so I can edit one file. Of course, this isn't hard to fix, if you know how.

True, you should just be able to update the /usr/share/applications/defaults.list file, correct? Blackbelt I'm sure this is what you're referring to, but someone else out there reading this might not know how. ;)

[irlandes]

This changing the default application has long been a problem in Linux. For example, one common issue was changing the default browser brought up when clicking on a link in e-mail received via Evolution. Eventually someone found out how to do it, and so it was passed around via Google. It is easy to say it should have been fixable in Evolution preferences. This sort of hidden function is part of the reason newbies get very frustrated at Linux.

It is good to know where the default file association is located. I will add that to my command file. Thanks.

The basic vi commands are pretty much what I have in my command file and notebook.

[irlandes]

See also /usr/share/applications/mimeinfo.cache

[retsaw]

I also don't like the new drop-down menu when you start typing an address in the URL bar.Firefox has extensions for almost everything including what you're complaining about: Oldbar (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6227)

I didn't like it when I first saw it, but I guess that because it was different from what I was used to since I don't mind it now.

[blackbelt_jones]

I'm still trying to learn emacs, though the truth is, since I'm not a programmer, there's no real reason why I'm ever going to need anything other than kwrite or gedit, at least until I get my no-X laptop.

I hear great things about vi, and I would never dis vi, but there's no good reason to make it mandatory. All I know is when I try to type text into vi, nothing appears on the screen. It doesn't get a hell of a lot more user unfriendly than that!

To keep vi as the default is annoying, but to actually switch back to vi from nano is downright obnoxious. I don't care if visudo is named after vi. After all, many of the files in my /dev folder are named after a teletype machine, and I have no plans on installing one of those.

This morning, for reasons that are beyond all comprehension, my hardy install started acting weird. It seems okay now. Here's hoping. I'm SO sick of changing distros! If Hardy doesn't work out for me, I'm going to take a lesson from IssacKuo, install Debian stable, and accept the odd little annoyances, and the older software.

[gamblor01]

All I know is when I try to type text into vi, nothing appears on the screen. It doesn't get a hell of a lot more user unfriendly than that!
Yeah you need to press either "I" to enter into insert mode, or "A" to enter into after? (append?) mode. Basically if you press "I" it inserts text before the cursor's position and if you press "A" it moves one character to the right and inserts information there.

Very confusing when you don't know how to use it though. I completely agree.

[IsaacKuo]

The only commands you really need to know to use vi are:

i - enter insert mode
esc - exit insert mode

x - delete one character
dd - delete a line

:qw - quit and write (everyone uses ZZ, though)
:q! - quit without saving

The main benefit of vi is that it's the only really usable editor when for whatever reasons the arrow keys don't work or don't exist. But this is not much of concern in this day and age.

[gamblor01]

everyone uses ZZ, though
Call me crazy, but I always use :wq! ;)

[blackbelt_jones]

Call me crazy, but I always use :wq! ;)

YOU MADMAN!:eek:

Well, thanks for the tips. I know that Vi has its devotees, and if the last six years has taught me anything, I know that there are always good reasons for that kind of devotion.

Still I'm not going to learn vi until I get a stronger background in emacs. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and stop using kwrite.

[gamblor01]

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and stop using kwrite.
Just use whatever editor works for you. There's no need to change to something else if your current editor allows you to accomplish all of the tasks that you need to. I switch between many editors. The only reason I'm familiar with vim is because it is often one of the only editors installed by default on Linux machines. I used them quite often at work, mostly over ssh sessions where I didn't have a GUI.

[blackbelt_jones]

Just use whatever editor works for you. There's no need to change to something else if your current editor allows you to accomplish all of the tasks that you need to. I switch between many editors. The only reason I'm familiar with vim is because it is often one of the only editors installed by default on Linux machines. I used them quite often at work, mostly over ssh sessions where I didn't have a GUI.

Most users aren't going to need anything beyond kwrite or gedit, which is exactly why this visudo thing annoys me. I recently learned about this command:

export EDITOR=/usr/bin/nano

but for some reason, when I installed Hardy on my other computer, it didn't work. The "export" command wasn't recognized.

It may be significant that this wasn't the official release of Hardy. It's a release candidate, albeit a late one, downloaded and installed just two days before the official launch, and I'd always assumed that after upgrading, it was about the same, but that may not be true in this case. If anyone is running a version of Hardy downloaded and installed after the official release (was it last Thursday? Or was it the Thursday before? ) maybe you could do me a favor and open visudo and find out if the default is nano (which has long been the default for Debian and Ubuntu) or if some reason Ubuntu has reverted to Vim. That would seem out of character for Ubuntu, and maybe this is a non-existent issue.

Myself, I do want to learn more about emacs, and something about vim. I'd like to get myself an old laptop and use it for writing, just run emacs from the console. I have an *****ion to contribute to Linux education, so I need a broad, general knowledge. and a little curiosity can be a great thing. I used to think that Windows did "everything I need it to do". I was wrong!

PS: Since when is *****ion a dirty word??

Incidentally, is the whole idea of visudo kind of crazy? You can directly edit the sudoers file using emacs as root. Most distros provide a a series of commented template items for the sudoers file. Edit them carefully, and you're golden. I'm sure you could use vim or nano or any number of command line editors just as easily, and if you're worried about screwing up your sudoers file, just back it up!

[bosox79]

Black belt,

i'm glad you have found a home with Ubuntu :cool:

I am going to stick with Sid myself because it is the perfect mix of stability and bleeding edge tech for me. and it has served me will as my primary OS for the last year

[blackbelt_jones]

Black belt,

i'm glad you have found a home with Ubuntu :cool:

I am going to stick with Sid myself because it is the perfect mix of stability and bleeding edge tech for me. and it has served me will as my primary OS for the last year

Thanks, but I still consider Debian to be my true home. Sid is the ultimate, imho, but I can't quite handle it yet, and as someone who is interested in linux education, I've decided that familiarity with Ubuntu is essential.

[bosox79]

Thanks, but I still consider Debian to be my true home. Sid is the ultimate, imho, but I can't quite handle it yet, and as someone who is interested in linux education, I've decided that familiarity with Ubuntu is essential.

when you think your ready for sid garb a sidux ISO and dive in. :cool:

[gamblor01]

I recently learned about this command:

export EDITOR=/usr/bin/nano

but for some reason, when I installed Hardy on my other computer, it didn't work. The "export" command wasn't recognized.

Yeah export can be quite useful. Interesting that it wasn't recognized on Hardy. The export command is part of BASH if I remember correctly. You are running BASH right ("echo $SHELL" to find out)? It is used to setup environment variables. If export isn't working then you might not be using BASH (though it's the default on my Gutsy install. export $SHELL returned /bin/bash as I expected), or something could be wrong. If you can't export environment variables, then it's going to be difficult add directories to your PATH (export PATH=$PATH:/some/other/directory). Hmm...

[jamesbandido]

i have tried gOS and i dont like it all ...

[blackbelt_jones]

i have tried gOS and i dont like it all ...

I tried the previous version, which wassupposed to be comepletely different. I didn't like it, either. You could install kubuntu-desktop, and then it would be fine,. but it would also be Kubuntu, and there was no getting back to the old interface.

Yeah, dumb and icky.