Average User?

[kmw]

Hi everyone,
I've only been using Linux for about 6 months and enjoy it. I know this may be a loaded question but I'll ask anyhow. As it seems that whenever I see a topic on Linux there always seems to be one person that posts "it's not ready for the average user"!

So I asked this on a mostly MS based forum as well, but who is the "Average User"? What do they use or do to make them the Average user? Does computing experience play any part in this?

Hope this gets answered more civilly than I believe it will on the other forum.

Thanks and I await your replies.

[klackenfus]

Well, I don't know if there really is an "average" user. I'll use myself as an example. I'm a 43 year old I.T. professional. I've been in the business since 1995, when I left active duty with the United States Army at the rank of Captain. I hold a B.A. in History and I used to be a tanker. My first job was working as a Business Analyst at General Electric where I eventually became the sysadmin for a Novell Netware 3.12 shop. I discovered Linux with Redhat 4.2 in 1996 and basically hated it. Over time, I learned that the fault dear Brutus lied not within Linux but in myself. In 1999, I had my Linux epiphany that it was really good and I have been learning more ever since. I now run multiple Linux servers and push it whenever I can. Am I average? I have no idea.

[kmw]

I may agree with you in general but from the responses I've received on the other forums is that the average user has a hard time with word pad or note pad and is doubtful they can even download and install anything from the internet.

[enshum]

Hey ed here and I am average in person no college degrees no IT, OT, or ET just a win 95, 98, 98se survivor I put win 98 se back together so many times I thought I was qualified as win 98 se EMT. Did not touch win ME and I thought win xp showed a lot of potential through the beta testing but well. I switched to Linux Libranet Linux to be exact and thats were I stayed with linux that is and I can tell you from experience that Linux is now and has been for at least two years ready for the desktop. I started using Sabayon Linux in April 2007 and currently I am using 3.5 loop1 (beta) solid as a rock for me. The question that should be asked is the average windows user ready Linux. I know a new user with no experience would not know the difference. Show them some eye candy spin and flip the cube with sound coming out of the cube and you got them for life. The really important thing is this on any given day can you fire up your computer and do all the things you want to do without problems. for me the answer is yes!:)
ed

I just spun the cube and I feel wonderful

[kmw]

Replies still coming in and so far the basic answer is that the average user is an idiot! Point and click that's about it..

If this is true, then there must be more above average users than average.

I just installed PCLinux MiniMe, which is a very basic OS and did that all with a point and click method. Never once touched a terminal. So I must be average or is that above average?

[Labman]

I may admit to being a below average user. I am heavily dependent on my kids and more so my SIL. Oh, I have done a few things on my own such as telling Konqueror to use Xpdf in place of Kghost. We wiil see how things go soon with a major hardware upgrade and Kubuntu replacing Mandrake 10.1.

[kmw]

I may admit to being a below average user. I am heavily dependent on my kids and more so my SIL. Oh, I have done a few things on my own such as telling Konqueror to use Xpdf in place of Kghost. We wiil see how things go soon with a major hardware upgrade and Kubuntu replacing Mandrake 10.1.
Looks like from the replies I've gotten so far, if you are using any type of Linux you're not an average user. Or you'd better stop because you're not ready for it!

[oldbogey]

You might remember a great line by Scott Granneman, talking about some of his students:

"Do you update your anti-virus software regularly?" I'll ask them. Most look at me as though I'd just asked them if they refloozle their hossenblobbets with tinklewickets.

The mythical average Windows user and the mythical average Linux user are different species. Go to your local Best Buy, etc., to see the mythical Windows user in all its glory.

Am I average? I use Linux to clean malware off my extended families' machines, and add RAM for them, and fix their lost XP passwords. But I don't know how to use Outlook beyond the rock bottom.

A boojum is just one kind of snark.

[mrrangerman43]

Who's average? If we are talking of the world population most people don't have electricity. Do we define average as someone that owns a computer? My mother know's nothing about computers other than how to turn one on, she mostly goes on the internet looks at the local weather. Her computer is running Debian Etch she has no problem doing what she needs to do. Is she a average computer users? I've never gone to school to get any computer training and yet I build my own computers, and fix computers for others, am I the average user? The only reason more people use windows is because of marketing. Had Linux been the first to hit the market and every computer sold to the public run linux, this would be a totaly different posting.

[gamblor01]

Who's average? If we are talking of the world population most people don't have electricity.
I think this discussion requires an assumption that the "average user" must only include those in the population that actually have access to a computer. ;)

I don't know if there is a good way to define the average user, but I certainly wouldn't do it based on operating system. I would look at some of the more popular types of applications though: web browsing, email, word processing. Give someone new to a computer a Linux system and show them how to open a web browser and a word processor (AbiWord, Open Office, whatever) and they can probably do those most of the tasks they need to. Same goes for Windows users and Mac users.

I would think that the majority of people out there that own a computer most likely purchased it pre-assembled from a store, regardless of OS. I would likely consider this person an average user. Now someone who has taken the time to piece a system together from parts, install an OS, and knows some basic system administration, they're probably above average (in my opinion). It seems like most people aren't willing to get their hands dirty like that though. They just want it to turn on, they don't care how it works, and they don't care to change any options.

I honestly have NO clue how to use excel. If you asked me to write a formula to sum up the numbers in a column I would have to read through the excel help or google it. Does that make me average?

[Konan]

In my experience, an average Linux user is a person who is interested in technical stuff, at least partly. I know a few people who are "techies" and use Windows and LOTS who use Windows but don't know or care how it works, but I don't know any Linux users in the last category.

Which brings up my opinion about all the hype of the low numbers of Linux desktops compared to Windows. Anybody who wants Linux either has it or can get it. The vast majority of computer users are icon clickers who have no interest in the technology. No problem with that (heck, I care less about how my car works, as long as it starts and keeps running) but if all of these folks suddenly see the light and convert tomorrow to Linux, they will bring nothing to help the cause. We would then have a bunch of clueless users who would surf as root and move Linux up into the 'bot networks and so forth.

The only advantage I can see is that manufacturers would have to support Linux far better.

When a person expresses an interest in Linux, I give them an honest opinion and offer to help them get started, but I have long since learned not to bother to try to convert anyone who has no interest in the technology. Heck, years ago I remember that it was almost impossible to get a user to change from WordPerfect 5.1 to a gui version, and that was just one app, not a whole OS.

As Robert Heinlein said, "Never try to teach a pig to dance - it wastes your time and annoys the pig", or words to that effect.

Konan

[trilarian]

It really comes down to people in general fear change and the unknown. Since windows was shoved in our faces before we even knew what we needed a computer for, it only seems natural to some (brilliant marketing, I must admit). So by its very nature, it may seem that Linux users are above the average (however you want to define that term), but in reality it just means they are more self motivated and/or adventurous.

At one time, to use Linux it took a great deal of tech knowledge, however now-a-days I think if you have the capacity to install windows from CD you can install Linux from CD with the same level of knowledge(some will say it is even easier). The point being, most of your windows users could not install windows from CD to begin with - it is just what the computer came with upon purchase (again, great marketing). We now see PCs with Linux preinstalled, and I would presume this trend will continue. As more people can go buy a preinstalled Linux machine, often for less than the windows counterpart, you will start seeing more and more of the less technical Linux user emerging.

The real question people should be asking, is how hard is it to get and/or how expensive is support when I need it? There are many low cost pay support lines opening up for the business model. You are not paying for the software, just to have a human at the other end of the line to walk you through support issues. Then on the smaller scale, there are forums like this one where support is free, but you have to wait for someone to respond - better suited for individual. These lower tech users have a big advantage coming to Linux as it is structured now. We have a good mixture of highly technical people, mid grade power users, and fellow low tech users starting out with them - and so far everyone seems willing to share their knowledge.:)

To quote our departed but not forgotten leader:

"If Linux doesn't have the solution, you have the wrong problem." -mdwatts

[kmw]

Very nice folks! At last people who are at least trying to define an answer to the question. Which is more than I've received on the mostly Windows forums.

On one of the forums a mod was one of the 1st replies, first he hemmed and hawed a bit then it reiterated "not ready for the "average" user", hemmed a little more but never offered a description of what he thought an average user was.

Though by the replies that I've received it seems the average user is an idiot and can't do a thing. So it struck me that if this is the case then maybe Linux is more for them than they think in that if they are really that stupid then they should probably be running the OS from a LiveCD so that they can not get into it and hose it up!

I am not out to change the world or convert anyone to anything. I guess that I just get upset when blanket statements like "not ready for the average user" are used and then the people making them can not even define the expression.

I define myself as an average user in most areas and maybe above average in some aspects while below average in others. Also agree that Linux is out there and that anyone with an interest can use it's basic functions, and also believe that it would not be much more difficult to learn the full functions than it would be for a New user to learn Windows.

Now I'm starting to believe that those people that make that statement are the same ones who get up every morning and have the same bowl of cold Cheerios and milk and will never change that. Besides as we all know Cheerios are Good for you!

[folkert]

I would have to read through the excel help or google it. Does that make me average?
Not in my opinion, I think the average user either knows, asks somebody else, or forgets the whole thing.

[Labman]

I think many people start out on a computer at work. For historical reasons I won't go into, it is a Windows box. In a larger office, it is all set up, and they may be discouraged from doing much more than opening and running applications. When they decide they need email, web surfing, and now photos, music, games, etc. at home, they go to Best Buy and buy whatever hardware they can afford or will fit on their plastic. They are going to download, burn, and install a different OS? Will the IT guy they depend on at work be able to help them?

I have followed a different path. My first experience was using Quicktran on an IBM time share terminal in the late 60's at work. A couple of jobs later it was a TI programmable calculator. I was doing MRP on it before I ever heard of MRP. Later I was given another terminal, but the software stunk. I think it was in 1982, I brought home a 16 K Radio Shack Color Computer. I stuck with it into the late 90's when my son was embarrassed to be getting email at Carnegie Mellon U. from it. One Christmas there was a used Quadra under the tree. Hey, big time, MAC OS 7.6.1 AND NS 4.X. Some years later, my son moved up from this PS/2 box with an AMD K-6, and my SIL installed Mandrake on it, later upgrading to 10.1.

My main Windows at work experience was about 5 years ago teaching computer aided instruction at a community college. I was largely teaching arithmetic to laid off factory workers, some of them even in their 40's. The students were spared listening to me by doing drills on the computer. This was a a good look at some of the users. The courses were available both conventional and CAI with little warning some of the classes were using computers except the cryptic CAI under notes. On the first day of classes, there were always those students checking heir schedule to see if they were really were supposed to be in a computer lab. When the bell rang, I would get up and start explaining this is the last day I would be talking in front of the class, and they would spending their whole time on the computer. That was the last I saw of many of them. I remember talking to one guy about how he should stay. I pointed out that as he went out on job interviews, many employers would ask about his computer experience. I felt it would be a real plus to be able to say you had taken a CAI math class.

While I knew little of Windows, many of my students knew nothing. I am going to do a separate post from the old Mac of the handout I started the students out on. See if you can imagine the people that fled the CAI class installing Linux on their own computer. I felt the dean was out of touch with the students when she insisted the syllabus was posted to Blackboard as a Word file. Of course, I was struggling with preparing Word files on the older Power Mac I was using at home. Unlike the dean, I didn't have the personal attention of the school's IT department, nor did the students.

[bwkaz]

I suspect that the "average" user, in at least certain cases, is whoever fits the worldview of whoever's talking, more than anything that's actually been looked into. :p

That being said, I suspect that if you took sysadminning out of the equation, then just about anyone would be able to use Linux at this point. (That is, I'm saying they'd be able to handle it if they had someone else to administer the system.) That's not all that different from most current Windows users -- witness the 300% increase in spam that I've seen since last December 25th. Where are all those spams coming from (or more specifically, who's connected to the source IP addresses)? Windows machines that got purchased for Christmas, got shoved out onto the hostile network as soon as they were booted, without any kind of firewall or patches, and got infected with whatever hits a machine now in the first 5 minutes (http://isc.sans.org/survivaltime.html) of it being on the Internet without a correct, working firewall.

If there was an actual sysadmin in the picture that knew what they were doing, these machines would have gotten patched before getting Internet access, and a firewall would have been turned on as well. (That's a host-based firewall, usually. A network edge device only works if none of the internal machines are infected...)

[ph34r]

Its been my experience that your average windows user has no problems using a "modern" distro like Ubuntu, at least after it is installed.

Most users (and I deal with a lot of 'em in my job) are happy when they know what icon to click to surf the web, check their email, and open a document. Most of 'em keep all their files on the desktop or in the default location that the app they use saves the files automatically...

[kmw]

I would really like to thank everyone who's particapated in the thread. I've found it very intersting with the replies I've gotten.

So far it seems, from all the replies on all the forums that I've posted this on, that the Average User is a mythical person that either cannot be desrcibed by most people or just doesn't exist.

Also from these replies there have been many good points made about computer usage. In most instances it seems most replies think that the Average User knows very little on how to use a computer regardless of which OS is involved.

Then if that is truely the case by those standars then the statement "not ready for the average user" should apply to all OS's. But I believe that that statement is invalid just on principle alone.

On that note, I enjoy computers, I also like Windows XP along with Ubuntu and PCLinux and will continue to use Linux even if the M$ elitists don't think I'm ready.

[blackbelt_jones]

Scientifically, there is no such thing as an "average user". Assuming that all the users on the planet could be located and measured, you can only get a mathmatical average for one measurement or quality. So you could certainly say that "the average user uses Windows", for example, but if you could make a complete list of all the abilitites, limitations, needs, and wants of every user, average each one of those qualitites, and create a profile of all of them, there's a good chance that those who would fit the profile are few or none.

I believe that the "average computer user" doesn't know what Linux is. If that's true, that means that anyone who tells you that Linux isn't ready for the average user is speaking for someone else who hasn't been consulted.

You can automatically assume that anyone who tries to tell you anything about the "average user" that is based on more than one dimension is making a whole assload assumptions. They could be right, or they could be wrong, but they're assumptions and not hard facts.

[Labman]

So the OS that crashes continually, must be scanned for viruses daily, etc. is ready for the average user? My kids put me in Linux because they knew I couldn't cope with Windows.

[kmw]

Actually after one post was made on another forum I was so worked up by the arrogance and claims that I almost replied back that if the average user was so inept then they for certain should be using a Linux LiveCD. That way there would be no chance of screwing up the OS or getting it infected with a virus.
OH well! Honestly folk, I normally do not get involved in this sort of discussion as it usually only inflames people and nothing gets settled. But I guess it was fun stir the MS pot.

Again thanks.

Now I have to go learn how it install and use WINE for a program I've been using in Windows that I've just been informed works very well in Linux under Wine. Wish me luck. If I have problems I will start a new post so keep your eyes open for me please.

[gamblor01]

That being said, I suspect that if you took sysadminning out of the equation, then just about anyone would be able to use Linux at this point.

Its been my experience that your average windows user has no problems using a "modern" distro like Ubuntu, at least after it is installed.

Most users (and I deal with a lot of 'em in my job) are happy when they know what icon to click to surf the web, check their email, and open a document. Most of 'em keep all their files on the desktop or in the default location that the app they use saves the files automatically...

Bingo!!

[blackbelt_jones]

Most of the problems that the so-called average user has with Linux are support-related. Does it come pre-installed? Is there someone around who can help me learn? Will my hardware work? When I take it to the shop, will they be able to help me? Can I play my favorite applications and games?

Make no mistake, these are real problems, and currently, many beginning users will find them daunting, though the situation continually improves. They are not problems with the operating system, per se. They are problems with the culture that the operating system exists in, and they aren't relevant to the question of whether Linux is technically ready for Mr. and Ms. Average

If "the average user" had to download and install Vista by himself, if there was no one around to teach him about Windows, and he had to read books written by programmers, If every popular game was released for another operating system, the so-called "average user" would have all the same problems.

The support problems that Linux has now are real, and anyone who is considering migrating deserves a heads up, but when linux gets a larger share, those problems will resolve themelves.

[klackenfus]

Most of the problems that the so-called average user has with Linux are support-related. Does it come pre-installed? Is there someone around who can help me learn? Will my hardware work? When I take it to the shop, will they be able to help me? Can I play my favorite applications and games?

You know, I agree with you. However, let me relate a recent experience. A friend of mine from way back to grade school days, recently asked me about Linux. Trust me, this girl is totally non-technical. She's sweet but I am surprised she can even spell computer. So, what do I advise her to do? Download Ubuntu and install it on her new computer and blow away Vista. That was a month ago. The other day, she emailed me and started telling me all about using VI, writing shell scripts and how she has learned how to grep things. I was shocked and found out she has been Googling around and teaching herself. The bottom line is, if you want to do it, you can do it, if you devote the time and the effort.

[kmw]

Desire, isn't it a wonderful motivator?

[trilarian]

Desire, isn't it a wonderful motivator?

Or in the case of some M$ fanatics - lust. :cool:

[kmw]

Or in the case of some M$ fanatics - lust. :cool:
It disturbs me to see people with such closed minds! Fan-atics, Elitests.

[gamblor01]

So, what do I advise her to do? Download Ubuntu and install it on her new computer and blow away Vista.
This intrigues me. My parents are going to be giving my brother's old desktop to a friend. I told them to wait until I visit in May and I will reinstall XP on it. I'm wondering if I could get them to install Ubuntu or Fedora instead...I'm sure I could even walk my dad through an install on the phone. Heck, the Ubuntu install is nearly impossible to screw up it's so easy.

I will have to talk to them and see if their friend would be interested in Linux instead of Windows. It's my understanding that she really only needs it to check email. Maybe she'll do some other things such as word processing as well but insert Open Office into the equation and that problem is solved. I'll have to find out what she truly needs it for and then see if she would be willing to run Linux!

Hmmm....

[Average User]

I am the average user, I have been using computers since 1991 and guess I am what would be described as a Windows Power User. I support about 10 users on an adhoc basis (when they are in trouble the shout in my direction!) in addition to my role as a Project Manager (non IT).

I chose to explore Linux as a potential future alternative to Vista as I have heard lots of bad things about it and felt it was time I understood what all the fuss was about with Linux and to se if it could offer my company an alternative route in the future.

I am not command line savvy (I only started using Ubuntu on1st March 08) and can see that Linux is a good system, I like to do as much as possible in a GUI environment as I find remembering all those commands a bind :eek: and some of the "jargon" seems like a throwback to the days when central data processsing departments still reigned supreme and DP managers & techies ruled the roost
in other words it seems to be techie to make techies feel better :confused:

That said I have found my first days with Ubuntu both rewarding & frustrating in equal measure, but to depose Windows from the desktop? Linux IMHO has a long way to go, its far to parochial in its approach, and the confusion created by simply downloading a "BIN" only to find no apparent way of installing it will make many pack it in and rush back to Bill and his merry men, only my sense of morbid curiosity has stopped me from saying stuff this for a game of soldiers on more than one occasion:D

[kmw]

Average User,
Welcome to the group. This is another one of the kinds of replies I was looking for. Thank you for your perspective.

I too have only started using Linux for about 6-8 months and will say my computer skills and abilites are probably much less than yours. I admit that I do struggle with the command line and trying to remember commands. In a way it is like trying to learn a new language.

After the amount of time I have using Linux, I still find it frustrating at times yet still very rewarding when I learn something new or a light comes on and something makes sense. I kind of look back and relate it to when I was learning Windows (Win95).

I may be a bit above average in knowlage of computers but I feel my needs and useage are average. At home I basically use it for surfing, email, banking, listening to music working with old vynl albums and for these things it seems to work very well.

[gamblor01]

EDIT: I incorporated all of bwkaz's updates. Thanks for keeping me honest. I don't know what I was thinking...I should have checked the man page first!


in other words it seems to be techie to make techies feel better
It is what it is. I doubt that was the point of the design but I can see why new users might feel that.

and the confusion created by simply downloading a "BIN" only to find no apparent way of installing it will make many pack it in and rush back to Bill and his merry men
This I can help with! BIN files are binaries. They are executable files on their own (well you have to launch it, like a .exe file...click it and it just runs) so to run them you should only need to open a command line, cd into the directory where the binary resides, and then type "./<filename>" (no quotes) to get it to install.

For example, if I had a file such as /home/avguser/Desktop/foo.bin then I would run the following commands (note the $ is just to denote a command prompt. You can think of it like C:\> so don't actually type it):


$ cd /home/avguser/Desktop
$ ./foo.bin


If it doesn't run you might need to check the permissions of it with "ls -l". You will see something like:


-rwxr-xr-x 4 avguser avggrp 136 Dec 24 2006 foo.bin


Basically the rwx stand for "read", "write", and "execute", respectively. The first 3 deal with the owner of the file, the second 3 apply to any users (other than the owner) that are members of the group that owns the file (the third field after the permissions: avggrp here), and the last 3 deal with every other user. So in this case:

-avguser has read, write, and execute permissions on foo.bin
-users of the group "avggrp" may only read or execute foo.bin
-everyone else may only read or execute foo.bin

To add write permissions for all 3 classes of users you could execute "chmod +w foo.bin" Check the chmod manual page (just type "man chmod") to see all of it's options.

So welcome to Linux. At least you're trying it. I know it may be a little frustrating but believe me, the first time you downloaded a .exe file in Windows you probably didn't know how to install it either. Now double-clicking just seems so intuitive.

If you delete Ubuntu, at least you can say you tried. That's more than others out there can say. Good luck!

[bwkaz]

This I can help with! BIN files are binaries. They are executable files on their own Well, the file's format is generally able to be executed. But no program (e.g. email client or web browser) will actually set the execute bits on the file (or at least, hopefully not!); you'll have to do that yourself. Use chmod to do this -- chmod +x /path/to/wherever/file.bin will set all of the execute bits for you. (Just like the write bits, below.)

For example, if I had a file such as /home/avguser/Desktop/foo.bin then I would run the following commands (note the $ is just to denote a command prompt. You can think of it like C:\> so don't actually type it):


$ cd /home/avguser/Desktop/foo.bin
$ ./foo.bin
Well, mostly. I'd actually cd /home/avguser/Desktop and then run ./foo.bin, because you can't cd into a file. But I'm assuming that was just a typo. :p

Basically the rwx stand for "read", "write", and "execute", respectively. Yep.

The first 3 deal with root, the second 3 deal with the group, and the last 3. Well, not quite. The first three apply to the user that owns the file (in the example that gamblor01 posted, that's the second field after the permissions; its value is avguser). The second three apply to any users (other than the owner) that are members of the group that owns the file (the third field after the permissions: avggrp here). The last three apply to everyone else.

(The set of bits that the kernel uses are exclusive, as well. If you're the owner of a file but the owner bits don't give you permission to do something, then you can't do it. Even if the "group" or "other" bits would give you permission, the kernel uses the "user" bits only.)

So in this case:

-root has read, write, and execute permissions on foo.bin Substitute "avguser" for "root", and this is correct. :)

-users of the group "avggrp" may only read or execute foo.bin Yep.

-the owner (avguser in this case) may only read or execute foo.bin Nope. :) Everyone except avguser and members of avggrp will have read and execute permission.

(Oh, and just to make things more complicated: root always ignores read and write permission bits; root has read and write access to everything. Root also has execute permission, but only if one or more of "owner", "group", or "others" have it.)

[Labman]

Getting back to the mythical ''average user''. Where do I fit in? While I have been using a computer for years that my SIL installed Mandrake on, does that make me a Linux user?

I have used for example NS 4.x on Mac 7.6.1, Windows 98, and Mandrake 10.1. There may be more difference in the NS 4.78 currently on ye olde Power Mac and the NS 4.03 I originally installed on the Quadra, than Mac NS 4.78 and the NS 4.8 under Mandrake.

Yes, I am still doing most of my email and other text composition with NS 4.x, because I love its friendly, powerful spell check. I am spelling and typing impaired.

[Labman]

Actually after one post was made on another forum I was so worked up by the arrogance and claims that I almost replied back that if the average user was so inept then they for certain should be using a Linux LiveCD. That way there would be no chance of screwing up the OS or getting it infected with a virus.
OH well! Honestly folk, I normally do not get involved in this sort of discussion as it usually only inflames people and nothing gets settled. But I guess it was fun stir the MS pot.

Again thanks.

Now I have to go learn how it install and use WINE for a program I've been using in Windows that I've just been informed works very well in Linux under Wine. Wish me luck. If I have problems I will start a new post so keep your eyes open for me please.

Actually, I am fairly safe as long as I don't go mucking about as root. My SIL has trusted me with the password.

[Nitro Fan]

EDIT: I incorporated all of bwkaz's updates. Thanks for keeping me honest. I don't know what I was thinking...I should have checked the man page first!



It is what it is. I doubt that was the point of the design but I can see why new users might feel that.


This I can help with! BIN files are binaries. They are executable files on their own (well you have to launch it, like a .exe file...click it and it just runs) so to run them you should only need to open a command line, cd into the directory where the binary resides, and then type "./<filename>" (no quotes) to get it to install.

For example, if I had a file such as /home/avguser/Desktop/foo.bin then I would run the following commands (note the $ is just to denote a command prompt. You can think of it like C:\> so don't actually type it):


$ cd /home/avguser/Desktop
$ ./foo.bin


If it doesn't run you might need to check the permissions of it with "ls -l". You will see something like:


-rwxr-xr-x 4 avguser avggrp 136 Dec 24 2006 foo.bin


Basically the rwx stand for "read", "write", and "execute", respectively. The first 3 deal with the owner of the file, the second 3 apply to any users (other than the owner) that are members of the group that owns the file (the third field after the permissions: avggrp here), and the last 3 deal with every other user. So in this case:

-avguser has read, write, and execute permissions on foo.bin
-users of the group "avggrp" may only read or execute foo.bin
-everyone else may only read or execute foo.bin

To add write permissions for all 3 classes of users you could execute "chmod +w foo.bin" Check the chmod manual page (just type "man chmod") to see all of it's options.

So welcome to Linux. At least you're trying it. I know it may be a little frustrating but believe me, the first time you downloaded a .exe file in Windows you probably didn't know how to install it either. Now double-clicking just seems so intuitive.

If you delete Ubuntu, at least you can say you tried. That's more than others out there can say. Good luck!


@gamblor01
Hi there, please don't misunderstand me, from what I have see so far I think Ubuntu is a great OS and it will NOT be replaced on my machine by Windows.

What I was trying to give was a real perspective on how I (as an average user) found my initial experience of Linux, and the language used around the product does give the impression that people talk in Jargon rather than plain English (just my opinion)

Thanks for your help with the BIN files I will be checking it out tonight

[Labman]

Having been on the other side of a different fence, I understand how easy it is is to give incomprehensible answers. Not only do I have extensive training and experience with dogs, I have extensive experience answering questions about them. I had to follow a learning curve to enable people to understand my answers.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have been using computers for about 40 years. They keep changing faster than I learn. I remember in 1994, when I had my back against the wall, and had to start email. When I called, the lady at Delphi, had no idea how detailed instructions I needed. I had had a modem, all of 300 baud, and belonged to Delphi for years, but never really had an app to drive use of it. But she walked me through it, and suddenly, I was in touch with my kids. As much as we hated to local high school, it was tough on Dad when his little girl went off to the state academy for the gifted he junior year of high school. While her and her older brother had access to the net at school, their technology was too different for them to be much help.

[gamblor01]

@gamblor01
Hi there, please don't misunderstand me, from what I have see so far I think Ubuntu is a great OS and it will NOT be replaced on my machine by Windows.

What I was trying to give was a real perspective on how I (as an average user) found my initial experience of Linux, and the language used around the product does give the impression that people talk in Jargon rather than plain English (just my opinion)

Thanks for your help with the BIN files I will be checking it out tonight
No hard feelings, I wasn't offended by your post or anything. I was just trying to encourage you to stick with it. I know it's frustrating at times (especially when you first start using it) but if you continue to use Linux then it will seem much more intuitive. I remember years ago when I had to call a friend to figure out how to install more RAM in my system! We all start somewhere.

Last night my girlfriend was watching me move a script, (but I couldn't because I didn't have write access to /usr/local/bin) so I had to su to move it. Then it didn't have execute permissions so I had to add them. Her (sarcastic) comment was "What you're doing right now makes so much sense to me..."

Maybe it's time I start her on Linux? ;)

[Average User]

No hard feelings, I wasn't offended by your post or anything. I was just trying to encourage you to stick with it. I know it's frustrating at times (especially when you first start using it) but if you continue to use Linux then it will seem much more intuitive. I remember years ago when I had to call a friend to figure out how to install more RAM in my system! We all start somewhere.

Last night my girlfriend was watching me move a script, (but I couldn't because I didn't have write access to /usr/local/bin) so I had to su to move it. Then it didn't have execute permissions so I had to add them. Her (sarcastic) comment was "What you're doing right now makes so much sense to me..."

Maybe it's time I start her on Linux? ;)

Hi gamblor01
Yep I will be sticking with it, I am really enjoying my experience with Ubuntu in a number of ways I now prefer it to Windows (And I know my way around a windows system!) just don't tell anyone!!
and I have now installed "Puppy Linux" Ahh! on a friends old Sony Vaio that would no longer start Windows! It now runs like a train albeit a bit of a slow train!

I am still struggling with some of the command line stuff, CD for example I type in the path NOTHING I cut and paste the path from the address bar BINGO yet from what I can see no difference in syntax I just dont get it!!!!!, but in the words of Winston Churchill "We shall never surrender".

Good to hear from you again keep in touch

[Labman]

Is this a good thread for a rant on lousy software? Why is so much of the soft wear in use today so much harder to use than what I was using on my Mac in 2000? Yesterday I was running Ubuntu 7.1 on my new system from a live CD. I was looking at the word processors, spell check, and email programs on it. None of them are as easy to use as Netscape 4.05 and Clarisworks were 8 year ago. And it isn't just what you are used to being easier. In Evolution, you have to pull down menus for new messages and spell check. NS 4.X has buttons.

While in transition from one system to another, I have been doing some of my work on an old Windows box. The apps shouldn't be that bad, but I find it a pain to move little blocks of text from Open Office to Foxfire. On the Mac, I can drag and drop text from Messenger 4.78 to a Navigator page. On my old Mandrake system, I can select text I wrote in NS 4.8, and paste it into a Konqueror page with a middle click. I expect Ubuntu or Kubuntu to work the same way. I am having a lot of trouble with selecting the block of text too, it scrolls too fast. Likely somewhere I can slow it down, but perhaps the default was set by a gamer with much faster reflexes than I have.

Why doesn't the average user force the software writers to make apps easier to use?

At least I have found where I can download NS 4.8 for Linux. I don't have it installed and running under Kubuntu yet.

[Average User]

Is this a good thread for a rant on lousy software? Why is so much of the soft wear in use today so much harder to use than what I was using on my Mac in 2000? Yesterday I was running Ubuntu 7.1 on my new system from a live CD. I was looking at the word processors, spell check, and email programs on it. None of them are as easy to use as Netscape 4.05 and Clarisworks were 8 year ago. And it isn't just what you are used to being easier. In Evolution, you have to pull down menus for new messages and spell check. NS 4.X has buttons.

While in transition from one system to another, I have been doing some of my work on an old Windows box. The apps shouldn't be that bad, but I find it a pain to move little blocks of text from Open Office to Foxfire. On the Mac, I can drag and drop text from Messenger 4.78 to a Navigator page. On my old Mandrake system, I can select text I wrote in NS 4.8, and paste it into a Konqueror page with a middle click. I expect Ubuntu or Kubuntu to work the same way. I am having a lot of trouble with selecting the block of text too, it scrolls too fast. Likely somewhere I can slow it down, but perhaps the default was set by a gamer with much faster reflexes than I have.

Why doesn't the average user force the software writers to make apps easier to use?

At least I have found where I can download NS 4.8 for Linux. I don't have it installed and running under Kubuntu yet.

@Labman
Hi Mate, I am unsure why you are using Linux you seem to be a fan of Apple and its OS so why use Linux?

I got into it as I was concerned that Bill and the boys were going to force me towards Vista and I don't much like what I see, so I tried out Ubuntu as an alternative and found I like what I see (Even if I still do not know what the heck I am doing most of the time!) a lot. I found it hard to adjust at first but with a bit of patience and an open mind I have come to see its advantages, I still think the Jargon is a bit much but what the heck!

As for look and feel I guess its a personal choice & what you are used too thing. I tried out Apple sometime ago and found it not too my taste.

[jaygee432]

My wife is strictly and end user, has no use for compiling, configuring, etc. But I got her into linux, Mint at this time. She was a windows xp user for a long time, but finally just got fed up with various glitches. She swears no way she will go back to windows!

[Labman]

@Labman
Hi Mate, I am unsure why you are using Linux you seem to be a fan of Apple and its OS so why use Linux? ....
Snip


I can't afford MAC and I get considerable support from my kids for Linux. They used to be into Mac, but mostly over the wider availbilty of hardware, switched to Linex. It is not so much the OS, but the friendly software. Maybe Clarisworks won't do everything you can do with Word or Open Office, but simple tasks I usually do are fast and simple with it.

Using my old case, CD, and Floppy drives, I have put together a decent system for about $170. I have an AMD 64 Athalon 3500 chip (2.2GHZ) on a PCChips AG13+ board, 1 gig 667 hz RAM, 80 Gig Seagate SATA driver, a 300 watt power supply, and likely Kubunta 7.1.0. What could those dollars get me in a MAC? I missed a great bare bones deal. Some of them have everything except an HD and OS. Just add a Seagate and Linux.

As a browser/file manager, I like Konqueror. I like 4 desktops, NS Messenger 4.8, Konqueror, Kwrite, and a terminal and other things on the fourth.

Most applications that are available on different platforms have about the same look and feel no matter what the OS.

[Average User]

I can't afford MAC and I get considerable support from my kids for Linux. They used to be into Mac, but mostly over the wider availbilty of hardware, switched to Linex. It is not so much the OS, but the friendly software. Maybe Clarisworks won't do everything you can do with Word or Open Office, but simple tasks I usually do are fast and simple with it.

Using my old case, CD, and Floppy drives, I have put together a decent system for about $170. I have an AMD 64 Athalon 3500 chip (2.2GHZ) on a PCChips AG13+ board, 1 gig 667 hz RAM, 80 Gig Seagate SATA driver, a 300 watt power supply, and likely Kubunta 7.1.0. What could those dollars get me in a MAC? I missed a great bare bones deal. Some of them have everything except an HD and OS. Just add a Seagate and Linux.

As a browser/file manager, I like Konqueror. I like 4 desktops, NS Messenger 4.8, Konqueror, Kwrite, and a terminal and other things on the fourth.

Most applications that are available on different platforms have about the same look and feel no matter what the OS.

Hi Labman
$170 for a system I wish I could do that nice one mate :cool:
Apple is expensive in the UK so I imagine you would not get a lot for your hard earned! so I do understand where you are coming from.
I find the UI in lots of Linux products seems to be "functional" maybe it's a kind of inverse snobbery but I quite like it:eek: it seems to take me back to a time when we did not need 2 Gig of ram just to run a basic program!
I hope your new kit runs well enjoy it.

[Average User]

My wife is strictly and end user, has no use for compiling, configuring, etc. But I got her into linux, Mint at this time. She was a windows xp user for a long time, but finally just got fed up with various glitches. She swears no way she will go back to windows!

I cant say I will never go back to Windows XP as it does what it says on the tin most of the time and solves many everyday business problems for me. BUT I am very impressed with Ubuntu and IF I can solve the same problems with Ubuntu I will be recommending my business does not move to Vista but does move to Ubuntu, as a well known junk food store says "Im loving it"

[mcwtlg]

I guess many people will have an opinion on what the "average user" is. For me that person is a web browsing, word document using, CD/DVD Ripping Windows user. Once a person starts using *nix, they are beyond average.

The "average" user installs freeware/shareware without looking to see if it is known to be problematic. They do not want to fix the computer if something goes wrong. The computer should "just work". I spend a lot of time working on the computers of "average" users cleaning up spyware and viruses. I guess I can't complain...they provide fun money.

In my opinion *nix is not ready to service those types of users. However, if the user is willing to research (Google is your friend) you can become a *nix user and enjoy your PC again.

I am not speaking from a high horse. I have been using Windows since the days of 3.11 . I broke a lot of configs on a 16 bit Windows machine and even more on Windows 95 and NT. However I did learn from my mistakes. Many of the admins at work laughed at me (I was a L1 help desk greenhorn) but in the long run, I have taught myself the basic of many OS's...all from trial and error. I have used more versions of Linux than I can count, plus Solaris, Mac OS, and BeOS...not to mention Menuet, Syllable, and SkyOS at one time or another. While I am far from a guru, non-WIndows OS's do not scare me.

I guess I am not your "average" user except for base intelligence. Other than that, I am a maverick.

[jaygee432]

I cant say I will never go back to Windows XP as it does what it says on the tin most of the time and solves many everyday business problems for me. BUT I am very impressed with Ubuntu and IF I can solve the same problems with Ubuntu I will be recommending my business does not move to Vista but does move to Ubuntu, as a well known junk food store says "Im loving it"
Ironically, I'm the one who has to use xp once in a while because a program I have to use with a part time counseling job will only work there. My wife's enmity to windows is partly my fault, going back to when I got a usb dock for the laptop she was using then. It came with a crappy driver, causing many problems which we blamed on xp. I've since downloaded a much improved driver, so that it generally does fine. But don't get me wrong, I've no regrets that she is happy with linux. After all, happy wife = happy life.:)

[kmw]

Wow, I thought this thread had died as I haven't had any email notices of replies sense my last post.

On one of the forums this was posted on the general thinking is that the average user is very limited in their abilities, needs and desires. In other words, they point and click, cannot install software or do any form of admin on a computer. "They just want it to work"! "When it breaks they call someone or take it in to a shop".

If that is the case and by that standard, that someone else is doing all the admin and set-up work, then that only reinforces my feeling that an average or new user can use Linux just as easily as Windows because they are not doing anything but using the programs that are already installed. Point and click, type word documents, save.

Thanks again for the time everyone has taken to respond.

[Enlighted One]

I rewrite the kernel daily

[philwebs]

Definition of terms?

"Average user" - With over 90% of desktop systems running Microsoft a typical user would use internet explorer, outlook, MS Office etc, would not have installed a system, would not have any understanding of how a system worked, would have minimal understanding of security, and would be unable to solve the simplest of problems. Also not able to configure an email client (would ask somebody) and would accept the system in front of them without question.

"Typical Linux/Open Souce user" from say 3 years ago - would have installed and troubleshot a variety of operating systems/distros, would have a wide ranging and broadly based understanding of systems and software, would be able to research and resolve problems. Would most likely have formed opinions based on experience.

"Typical Linux/Open Souce user" from say 2008 - would be an "Average user" with either some curiosity or a disattisfaction with some other system and has been forced to look at alternatives. Or may have asked someone to install say linux for them and just carry on as an "Average user" on a different system.

Phil

[Labman]

In general, our highly technology based society, is technically inept. Do you think any of our good Linux users have their system 3 prong plug, plugged into a 2 prong adaptor, and then it plugged into a 3 prong? I haven't seen such with a computer surge protector or power strip, but appliances, VCR's, etc. by educated, professionals.

[bill marshall]

A very vague concept, but to simplify matters I would like to give an example.
I am a 57 year old truck driver that has loved linux since the 95 blue screen of death.
As a Driver trainer, I come in contact with many different people. Just this week, My student asked if She could borrow my laptop to check her mail.

She is from Peru originally, and now lives in Pa., when I picked her up for church today, I asked her if she had any problems. She said no.

She had never heard of linux, but used my old HP Pavillian N5430 which had feisty
kubuntu on it and and old smc pcmcia card and had no problem getting her mail.

My wife also now uses linux without screaming at the blue screen.

I believe the average user is any one that can use and appreciate the work that just keeps on working.

Cogito Ergo Sum: Using linux

[kmw]

What amazes me most is that the people whom regularly make a statement like "not ready for the average user" made the fewest repsonses or comments. Some did not respond at all, yet continue to make that statement with no means of backing it up or even attempt to defend it.

To me this equates to making a statement like there is only 1 color of blue or green or that hot is hot and cold is cold. When some people are hot I am comfortable. When others are cold I am freezing.

[Labman]

I think bill marshell nailed the essense. The OS should stay hidden under well running applications. While different users vary on their ability to go the command line and fix things, I think all of them want things to run without problems. Judging Linux by the Mandrake 10.1 I have been using, it still has a long way to go.

[kmw]

Good point Labman and Bill M., Though I know nothing of Mandrake I do know I've been using a copy of Ubuntu sense 7.04 w/o a single issue or any breakage along with a couple versions of PCLinux on a couple of PC's also w/o issues. One of those is MiniMe that is a very basic install and have had no trouble installing any apps or programs to it.

Now all anyone has to do is go to any of the other computer forums and look at the number of issues people are having with Vista and then that too would be on equal footing and not ready. But then the hard core MS users say there isn't anything wrong with Vista. It works fine! It's the hardware manufacturers fault for not suppling support.

I agree. I don't care which OS I'm using as long as I can get done what needs to be done. As of right now today I believe many Linux distros are a better OS than Vista. 6 months or a year from now that may change again when/if Vista matures. Remember though that during that time Linux will mature and grow also.

[AussieJohn]

Hi Labman.
More than a couple of times I have seen you refer to Mandrake10.1 as a way of denigrating Mandriva against other Linux OSs.
Considering how old 10.1 is (nearly 4years old) I would say you know little if anything about the abilities of current Mandriva, say Mandriva 2008. I have used every version of Mandrake/Mandriva since 10.0. Every version was at least the equal of its competitors in each year and has gotten better and better. In many circles it is regarded as the most user friendly of all Linux OSs in terms of installation and use.

Because it is French based it tends to be ignored by most US Linux fans who like Windows fans are easily impressed by marketing, advertising and current fads.
A lot of Europe acts the same way as well but to a much lesser degree.
Certainly Ubuntu, Suse, and Fedora etc are great OSs but to say they are superior to Mandriva is unadulterated hogwash. I have converted at least 8 former Windows users to Mandriva and no dual boots. They read about the Ubuntu popularity but none have shown the slightest interest in converting to it. They know they are on a good thing and they are sticking with it.

Use your favorite Ubuntu or whatever, that is your choice and your right but please stop bagging Mandriva when it is obvious your current knowledge about it is out of date and irrelevant.

Cheers.

[Labman]

I want an OS that works. After spending hours fighting Mandrake just to move the time up an hour, that leaves it out. 10.1 didn't work 5 years ago. I have run into one thing after another. Are the newer versions any better, or do they just have more features that don't work? I have looked at a couple of other distributions, and they look no better. Likely half the threads or more here involve work arounds of a bug.

If I was sure OSX hadn't been ''improved'' to where it no longer had the usability of the older Macs, I think I would forget Linux.

[trilarian]

Hi Labman.
More than a couple of times I have seen you refer to Mandrake10.1 as a way of denigrating Mandriva against other Linux OSs.
Considering how old 10.1 is (nearly 4years old) I would say you know little if anything about the abilities of current Mandriva, say Mandriva 2008. I have used every version of Mandrake/Mandriva since 10.0. Every version was at least the equal of its competitors in each year and has gotten better and better. In many circles it is regarded as the most user friendly of all Linux OSs in terms of installation and use.

Because it is French based it tends to be ignored by most US Linux fans who like Windows fans are easily impressed by marketing, advertising and current fads.
A lot of Europe acts the same way as well but to a much lesser degree.
Certainly Ubuntu, Suse, and Fedora etc are great OSs but to say they are superior to Mandriva is unadulterated hogwash. I have converted at least 8 former Windows users to Mandriva and no dual boots. They read about the Ubuntu popularity but none have shown the slightest interest in converting to it. They know they are on a good thing and they are sticking with it.

Use your favorite Ubuntu or whatever, that is your choice and your right but please stop bagging Mandriva when it is obvious your current knowledge about it is out of date and irrelevant.

Cheers.

Since you use Mandriva regularly - curious if they ever developed a better package manager? Mandrake was my first taste of Linux waaaaaay back and I dropped it somewhere around '98 - '00 for Debian for the sole reason of apt-get over RPM dependency hell. I've been a Debian fan ever after, and usually when trying to get others involved really push Debian for that reason.

The ease of a non-gui, no questions asked, direct install of almost every program available is very attractive to me.

apt-get install <program>

or

apt-get update && apt-get upgrade

to update all my installed programs makes me a happy user.:)

[AussieJohn]

Labman.
Methinks you know less about Linux than you try to give the impression of.
Problem setting the time and you damn an OS for it 4 to 5 years ago and ever since ???. Hmm.

Trilarian.
What makes you think that Mandriva hasn't progressed from what it was from those 4 or 5 years ago like every other Linux OS ???. Sure it has. It uses urpmi and anyone who uses it doesn't have the dependency hell that much was written about. You select an Application and it also selects the dependency packages required as well, automatically. By the way RPMs are not automatically inter-operable with other OSs that use the rpm format. This is gradually improving in time as OSs move to adopting an RPM Standard.
Only when one wants to compile an application that is not an rpm do you get dependency hell and that applys to EVERY Linux OS. With the vast repository of Apps in rpm form that Mandriva has, there is very rare need to compile from source. I am sure that is the case with most all the other main Linux OSs.
Why not give Mandriva a try ???. It costs nothing (like the others also).

Why a non-gui install ???. I have no programming skills and have no trouble installing Mandriva RPMs into Mandriva with click...click. It is like saying that the only to start a car is to manually prime the carburettor, adjust the choke, connect the battery then start the engine as compared to having this done automatically for you when you plug in and turn the ignition key. Sure you can do it all manually but why would you want to in this day and age ???.
Regarding updates there is no problem there either. It can be done automatically in Mandriva too. I check for updates daily, not because I have to but because I can.

Installing new apps and updates is a non issue for me and has been for years, 6 to be precise since that is when I first started in computers. I rarely ever have to touch the cli and that is usually when some bug work around is recommended as necessary. As you say Waaaaayyyy back then program management was a problem, and all OSs had their problems and not just Mandriva.
If you like using the cli and deem it quick for you then good for you (and I do not mean that sarcastically) but please don't imagine for one minute that using it is superior to using the gui. Not every user wants to or to even care about remembering type codes to get things done.

I use Mandriva as a working OS to get things done. I don't toy with it. And it simply works. The only experimentation I do is with beta and rc releases of forth coming versions and with trying other OSs to see what they are about to keep up a little with what is happening around me.

What I say here applys to all OSs. If you like one and use it then you have made a good choice for YOU and that is good. Make your choice on what best suits you but don't base it on outdated prior experiences. Things change so rapidly in the Linux world of all OSs that basically any experiences of more that a year ago are irrelevant to today.

When or if you give Mandriva a try, if you experience a problem don't assume that Mandriva is the problem. That is what most Mandriva knockers (or other Linux OSs) do. They assume they themselves are not the problem.
For solving Mandriva problems there is no better help body than Mandrivausers.org
which is renowned for helping users of most all Linus OSs and even Windows itself. If someone can help you they will but they won't bag you for using other than Mandriva. People say that Ubuntu has a great user help community and that is the way it should be but it has the reputation of being disinterested in non Ubuntu problems.

If you try present day Mandriva you will find just how damned good being a Linux user really can be.

Cheers. John.

[trilarian]

Trilarian.
What makes you think that Mandriva hasn't progressed from what it was from those 4 or 5 years ago like every other Linux OS ???. Sure it has. It uses urpmi and anyone who uses it doesn't have the dependency hell that much was written about.

I had no impression of Mandrake/Mandriva being set in the stone age, just asking what they did to improve and the *then* broken package manager. :p

This is gradually improving in time as OSs move to adopting an RPM Standard. Only when one wants to compile an application that is not an rpm do you get dependency hell and that applys to EVERY Linux OS.

This is mostly true... I'm sure urpmi has the ability to install the dependencies by themselves, so you should be able to look at the output of ./configure and make a list to install. The dependency hell I was talking about was when you had to google or sourceforge each dependency, which if you needed 30, you can see how that can get to be hell. Even more so if you didn't know about each of the 30 up front, but as you tried to install a dependency it required another dependency.

Debian has made a nice feature 'build-dep', so if you need to compile you can run:

apt-get build-dep <package>

and have the package manager install the dependencies so you only have to worry about compiling the main program.

Why not give Mandriva a try ???. It costs nothing (like the others also).

If I had more free time and was bored - yes. However, in reality I'm completely happy with my current installs and don't see an advantage to any other distro over the one I'm currently using. That doesn't mean mine is vastly superior, just that I'm used to where things go and how to troubleshoot - there is zero motivation to move to something else(grass isn't any greener).


Why a non-gui install ???. I have no programming skills and have no trouble installing Mandriva RPMs into Mandriva with click...click. It is like saying that the only to start a car is to manually prime the carburettor, adjust the choke, connect the battery then start the engine as compared to having this done automatically for you when you plug in and turn the ignition key. Sure you can do it all manually but why would you want to in this day and age ???.

If you like using the cli and deem it quick for you then good for you (and I do not mean that sarcastically) but please don't imagine for one minute that using it is superior to using the gui. Not every user wants to or to even care about remembering type codes to get things done.

Your analogy cracks me up. There are many reasons for me to use a CLI over a GUI (that is non-programming related). The CLI has been advanced enough that it is more along the lines of do you want to put your car in automatic or use a stick? Neither is that complicated, it comes down to a matter of choice. And in the extreme cases, like a pro racer, manual is the only way because you need exact control. As for generic pros/cons, CLI will give you a little bit more control at the price of more work, similar to the above analogy.

CLI's biggest advantage to me personally, is the ability to SSH into headless servers that either don't have X installed or don't have the X server started. There is just about zero lag when staying in a CLI over thousands of miles. Yes, X can be forwarded, but you can easily tell if the X server is running locally or if you are connected to a box 1,000+ miles away. That doesn't make a hard rule CLI > GUI, just there are advantages in using both.

For an example, lets use my update mentioned last post. If I wanted to update a box in California while I'm in Florida, I could SSH into the box. At this point if I wanted to use the CLI I would type "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade". If I wanted to use the GUI, I would type <update_program>&, select update. Both are rather simple, it comes to preference - though if I had to do a bunch of these, I would think the CLI would have the advantage from a speed aspect. If you wanted to have this done automatically in the future, copy that line into /etc/cron.weekly.

The point here is not to show one as being superior, but that both have very viable uses and that your statement that the CLI is outdated, excessive work, and should not be used is just wrong.


I use Mandriva as a working OS to get things done. I don't toy with it. The only experimentation I do is with beta and rc releases of forth coming versions and with trying other OSs to see what they are about to keep up a little with what is happening around me.

My main desktop box at work runs Debian. We have Suse servers for all network shares and firewall. I had a choice of Suse or Red Hat from management on the servers(basically could someone else take over if I wasn't here), so I took Suse. Think you are relating CLI to only programatic tinkering, which really is not the case here.

What I say here applys to all OSs. If you like one and use it then you have made a good choice for YOU and that is good. Make your choice on what best suits you but don't base it on outdated prior experiences. Things change so rapidly in the Linux world of all OSs that basically any experiences of more that a year ago are irrelevant to today.

I couldn't agree more. :) The only thing I could add to that, is don't get set in your ways to the point of its the only right way. There may be a more useful way to do things, be it a different window manager, different program, or CLI vs GUI for a particular task.

When or if you give Mandriva a try, if you experience a problem don't assume that Mandriva is the problem. That is what most Mandriva knockers (or other Linux OSs) do. They assume they themselves are not the problem.

This is true for any OS really. It is easy to point the finger, especially when it is a finger made of pixels...

If you try present day Mandriva you will find just how damned good being a Linux user really can be.

Glad you found a distrobution that works for you. That is the beauty of Linux, really, the ability to customize it to your exact liking. Since there are so many different types of people in the world, and the ability to customize Linux is high, its only natural to expect a plethora of distrobutions. In the end, the same programs are available to every distrobution(minus maybe the package manager itself), so it comes down to preference.

You can convince me Mandriva is great, but you can't convince me its the best - simply because I don't believe there is a best, just choice.

[Labman]

No Aussie John, the time problem was a week or 2 ago when we made the now March switch to daylight time. I notice another thread where a couple of other people were having trouble resetting time. I don't have any problem with the OS sticking to the April change we used for years. I wouldn't even count on say Ubuntu 7.1.0 having the March date. What I think I should be able to count on is opening Drakclock, logging in as root and setting the time wherever I feel like it. Elapsed time, maybe a minute or 2, the same as on the old Mac and Windows box. However, this isn't the first time I have trouble setting the time. My system has occasionally spontaneously reset the time. Once again, Drakeclock insisted it knew better what time I should be using. A reboot usually solved the problem. Hummmmm, what other OS requires frequent reboots?

As for your earlier crack about my opinions being irrelevant, if Linux is ever going to be more than a toy for hobbyists, people like me are going to have to perceive it as being easy to use. Forget the command line work arounds and fix the bugs and write some real documentation.

Maybe I a using an older OS, but it should have worked when it was new, which it didn't, and it should work now. Why do I find it easier to do simple tasks such as reset the time, so much easier in the ancient OS's Mac 7.6.1 and Windows 98? Note, I doubt the Windows box ever had any updates on it.

It is not just the time thing, but one thing after another. I spent quite a while today trying to kill the ''New folder'' option in the bookmark menu. It is a real pain to have the New folder dialog box open if I am careless about removing the cursor after selecting Bookmarks. Frankly, I hate anything opening on mouse over and would kill it completely if I ever found out how.

You have to remember not all of us are geniuses that can learn how to use powerful tools in the 15 minutes you claimed. Of course, us dummies that took much longer to learn those systems eventually did a lot of fine work with them when they were what we had to work with.

I am just not interested in playing with your toys, that came out of the box, broken. It is not quite what Tom Watson meant, but ''machines should work''.

Oh, using Mandrake 10.1 and Konqueror, Quick reply and Edit don't work right here and sites using similar software.

[AussieJohn]

For a moment I could almost believe I was on a Windows fan forum.
You use the same manner of arguments including alluding to things I have never said. And you still keep rabbiting on about problems using Mandriva 10.1 (over 4 yrs old and unsupported for 3yrs).
Ah well, can't be helped I guess, there will always be those that call other peoples choices "toys". Anyone who says that a system should work 100% out of the box now or any other time shows they really and truly do not know very much about computers, least of all Linux, despite all their bluster.
Sad really.
Cheers. John.

[Labman]

I guess it is really tough sharing the world with mere mortals for some.

[AussieJohn]

An underdog now are we?. How sad.
Lame.

[acid45]

I would say an "Average User" would be someone who boots the PC, checks their e-mail etc and uses programs for work and browsing the internet and games as well.

I love Linux. I can find more things to get things done on Linux without having $1000 of software receipts. That being said I have subscriptions to Linux magazines, like Linux Format, that support the open source community. So I'm paying for my software in other ways than directly paying the software developers. There isn't much that you can do on Windows that you can't do on Linux.

[bwkaz]

...the time problem was a week or 2 ago when we made the now March switch to daylight time. I should note that Mandrake 10.1 was released in December of 2004 (http://www.gtlib.cc.gatech.edu/pub/mandrake/official/iso/). That DST-changing law wasn't even introduced into Congress until July of 2005 (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2005/07/26/dim_witted_proposal_for_daylight_time/).

So how, exactly, was Mandrake supposed to be able to look six months into the future to be able to change their DST changeover rules? :p

(glibc in general -- which is where the time-zone rules are held -- changed the DST changeover dates starting with version 2.3.6, whose sources were released in November 2005 (http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/glibc/). Any distro with a glibc version newer than that (including any Ubuntu that was ever released, as far as I know anyway -- I believe Ubuntu is only a couple years old) will handle the new DST changeover properly. Well, assuming that distro is booted when the changeover happens; otherwise, depending on how you configured your RTC, you might have the hour offset happen from two different OSes. (That's why you should store UTC in your real-time clock, and never have any OS change it.) But if you're only ever booting one OS, it'll still work fine.)

[Labman]

....I don't have any problem with the OS sticking to the April change we used for years. I wouldn't even count on say Ubuntu 7.1.0 having the March date. What I think I should be able to count on is opening Drakclock, logging in as root and setting the time wherever I feel like it. Elapsed time, maybe a minute or 2, the same as on the old Mac and Windows box. .... It is not quite what Tom Watson meant, but ''machines should work''.

I am quite disappointed how negative this thread has turned. If you are going to knock me, at least knock me for what I said.

I would gladly trade the frill of having the OS update daylight time for being able to have the system accept the time I set.

Linux has some problems and shooting the messenger won't fix them.

[kmw]

Sorry, been away for a few days but come on guys this is getting way off-topic!
When I started this thread I'd asked not to turn this into a debate over OS's. We all have plenty of time and space to do that in another thread. Yes I have been guilty myself of wandering OT too.

I do have 1 question for labman though.
If you find an OS not up to your needs or expectations then why do you continue to use it?

AVERAGE USER define yourself!

I have been using computers about 10 years. My first home PC was a P100 with Windows 95 and my former employer back then was using a Unix type system in a warehouse environment. During that time most ALL warehouse employees had to use a computer for picking, packing, stocking, receiving, shipping and inventory control. That employer is still using that Unix system along with Windows from 98se to XP. Many or those people today at that same job know how to use the programs that are on those computers to do their daily jobs. Some of them, that is the only time they use a computer becuase they do not own a PC. I do NOT consider those people that do not own a PC an average user. Maybe they are the average business user but I doubt that also. Because if I just look at that group as a whole they are still in the minority count as I would guess that 80% of all employees in that company own home PC's.

So I myself have been a warehouse receiving supervisor and would guess that 30% of my day was spent on a computer and that my employees spent about 15% of their time using a computer. Almost everyone in my department owned a home PC and knew how to keep it up.

My family, I have 5 childern, 2 still at home. All but one uses a computer daily. Those that do use them each owns their own and also know how to keep them up to date and at times do not practice safe computing.

I have 6 brothers and sisters. All but 1 owns a home PC. 1 is a doctor, 1 works in a billing dept., 1 is a cable TV tech and 2 are at home moms.

Most of the people I know and associate with all have home PC's and most know at least as much as I do or more. So these are the people that I base my opinion on as to what the average user is.

They all have internet and email and at least some form of MS WORKS or suite, CD burning, DVD program, printers and photo programs and games. Some even have small home networks like myself and with more and more wireless notebooks a router is becoming normal. So to me this is my average.

[Labman]

So why am I still running Mandrake 10.1 despite my problems? The main reason for right now was after I installed Kbuntu 7.1.0 on my new AMD 3500 based, it looked like aside from being faster, I was looking at many of the same old problems.

Longer term, Ihave continued with it, the devil you know is better than a new devil. Don't jump out of the frying pan into the fire. A lack of clearly better alternatives. I am not a hobbiest. There is no way I would go through installing dozens of distributions trying to find a user friendly one, if there is one.

Other alternatives? I would hate to cough up for Vista to confirm that it would be worse than Mandrake. OSX? No way do my needs justify Apple hardware prices. Besides, just as I find the newer versions of Netscape less usable than ye olde 4.X, so might I find OSX not Mac 7.6 like.

So I don't any clear alternatives now. Frankly due to later posts on this thread, Linux now has a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't think my complaints about problems with an OS justify the negative remarks about me. I never claimed to be a highly proficient user. I do know, I won't be using Mandrake or any Mandrivia product having seen a sample of the friendlyness of its community of users.

[kmw]

Thanks labman for the response. I can relate but to a different experience.

I will say that when I posted this question on another forum I was flamed pretty harsh by a few of the members (including some mods) just for asking this question. Then I had to consider the source! It is mainly a MS supported forum and any form of Linux is considered inferior. Again the really funny thing was that none of those people offered any explaination as to what Average was. They again just wanted to explain what they thought was wrong with Linux and take shots at me for asking. As expected!

So if you think this site is rude I should send you over there to compare. Some of those members get down right snotty. I will add that all questions I ever posted on either the Ubuntu or PCLinux forums were well received and answered to the best of there ability. Not one "go google it" or "did you try searching the forum" or "Duh, it's in the stickies"...

[HughA]

Hello kmw,

Like attracts like, so if you look at the attitudes of Bill Gates and his henchmen (amoral, unprincipled, arrogant, adversarial, and so forth), then you will have an insight into the minds of (some) Microsoft aficionados. The majority of MS fans rail against things that they simply do not understand - they are ignorant, and they fear the unknown. Perhaps some MS supporters can see the writing on the wall. Maybe they feel a chill go through their bones as the ever-lengthening shadow of a *real* operating system begins to fall upon them, and the horrifying prospect of being over-run by what they perceive as 'geek-ware' looms ever larger. However, most MS users would, I suspect, prove to be the elusive 'average users' that you seek - they aren't partisan, don't indulge in flame wars (and probably don't know what a 'flame' is in that context). To these average users, a computer is a tool to be used for surfing the net, reading email, writing documents, and so forth. These people are the victims of Microsoft's inability to code, and of its predatory and unconscionable business practices. They buy a PC, paying the 'Microsoft tax' along the way, and they are consigned to the depths of a computing nightmare full of viruses, malware, bloatware, bugs, and system hangs. Now they are starting to discover that they do have a choice, and it will be very interesting to see what the final outworking of all this will be ...

[Labman]

Good points, HughA. Perhaps most forums tend to be dominated by true believers, quick to pounce on any dissent.

[panther3e]

I have been reading this post since it started. I have been thinking about what an average user is and if I was indeed an average user. I have been using computers at work and home for ten to twelve years now. My frist computer that I paid for had a 8088 processor with a whopping 20 meg hard drive and no idea how much ram it had. It had only dos 3. something. I could not do anything with it other than play around with some of the commands. I did not have a clue as what I could do with this. I was intrigued by this computer thing and wanted to learn more.

After bugging the IT guy at work with bunches of questions, he said that the computer I had bought was to small to do anything useful. He gave me an old 386 computer and monitor that he was going to throw away. He also gave some disks, dos 5, windows 3.1 and works. Wow this was so cool, I mean all of the computers at work were all command line. This was great I could make do some things at home like type letters, spreadsheets, and write some basic programs. I would copy them to disk and take them to work to use or print. This got old and boring because I could not add any programs as the system was old and outdated. I still used it off and on for a couple of years. Then I got a 486 from work and I introduced to Linux. I had heard about this Linux from a tech show that I watched. So I went to a couple of book stores and found a book on slackware. It came with two CD's. First was the install disk and the second was a programs disk. I wrestled with this slackware 3.5 install for weeks. I would read the book, try to install, fail then start over. But I finally got it installed, this was a great thing for me. I did not have the internet or anyone to talk to except the IT guy at work who would give me some help where he could.

I never had much money so I had to make due with old hardware. I had bought an old Pentium computer at a yard sale. IT had a 200 meg processer, 32 megs of ram and a 2 gig hard drive. I then bought redhat book with install disks. I got it installed and after a few days I had it up and running and even was able to get on the internet with my 14.4 modem. Woohoo what a feeling I had but it was short lived as the computer died.

As things have progressed I have been able to buy some better old computers and have been running Ubuntu since it started with warty 4.10 version. I have tried many different distro's and keep comming back to Ubuntu.

I guess I am a normal user. I do not feel I am an expert when it comes to linux, windows., or computers for that matter. But I am not afraid of them either. I have broken my systems so many times and had to reinstall. But that is how I learned by making mistakes. It has not always been the greatest way to learn because of the pain factor but the pain was only mine.

Now I just tinker with different distro's by dual booting, that way I have my fun and not lose anything in the process.

So I guess I will consider myself a normal user

[Labman]

My memory of the 80's isn't as sharp as it could be. Still, I know there was a lot of good work done with the primitive tools we had then. My father in law changed how engineers designed crystallizes with his old RS Model 1. It was a very exciting time for technical people. There were plenty of areas where we knew how to calculate things, but the iterative calculations were too tedious. Creative, motivated people used what they had to get the job done. My sister made great use of her original IBM PC for word processing. Anything, including my TRS 80 Color Computer, that could have run VISI Calc or Calc Alike, would have been a big step up for me at work when I was doing MRP on a TI programmable calculator. Perhaps instead of trying to justify having the company buy an IBM, I should have bought an Osborne. If the company wasn't comfortable with me taking all the production records home every night on my machine, they could give me the tools I needed.

[gamblor01]

Just FYI, I thought this was an interesting article. A guy installed Ubuntu Hardy, created a user account for his girlfriend, and had a slew of tasks for her to complete. Some of the conclusions that he reaches I think are very valid.

I think he could have done more such as asking her to watch a video attached to an email (such as mpeg or wmv), and also to do some word processing...both common tasks that users would do. Since Ubuntu doesn't load the Windows codecs I think that task would fail, though Open Office would probably be sufficient for word processing.

It's an interesting read however. I think one of the major points is that a lot of the tasks she failed at could be remedied by some simple UI tweaks. Of course, he could have preloaded some codecs and software to help her out, but where's the fun in that? Check it out if you're interested.

http://contentconsumer.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/is-ubuntu-useable-enough-for-my-girlfriend/

[happybunny]

I read that earlier and commented.

Although it obviously wasn't a scientific test, I found it a little flawed.

Trying some of those tasks on Windows would have failed, since Windows does not include Photoshop, or CD burning software.

Also, skype isn't free on Windows so there is a significant cost to getting these same tests run on Windows.

Also, also, no one, with any amount of IT talent, would ever hand someone a base install of any OS.

Windows, Mac and Linux deploys ALL need post install tweaks before handing to an end user.

Windows needs tons of app's (Office/Photoshop), virus protection, spyware protection, icon cleanup, etc.

I've never used a Mac so I can't be specific here.

Linux needs dvd reading codecs....hmm...what else?

More I'm sure, but hopefully you get the point.

I would still argue that a base install of Ubuntu/Suse/Fedora is still a more well rounded environment than a base install of any Windows, simply for a lack of useful pre-installed applications.

But again, all base installs need tweaking before they become useful.

[kmw]

I would like to see it done this way;

1. Take a Win98 user (I know there are still many out there) and put them in front of a Vista machine and a Linux machine that are fresh basic installs with no other programs added other than what is on the install disk and ask them to use them the same amount of time for 1 month doing the same things. then see how it plays out!

2. Take someone with no computer experience and do the same thing.

Because from the reponses I've received from the posts here and other forums that's about the level of an average user.