Someone please explain to me why KDE4 is not a disaster?

[blackbelt_jones]

My first impressions are always negative, and I may be wrong about all of this. Someone please tell me I'm wrong about this.

KDE4 looks like a big fat mess to me. First of all, it really looks like the options for keyboard shortcuts have been scaled way down, and there's no way I can get on board with that. I can't figure out how to move items on the panel. There doesn't appear to be an option for "open with" for files on the desktop. The desktop used to be an extension of Konqueror, which was easy to understand, but now icons on the desktop behave differently than icons in Dolphin or Konqueror.

And what the hell is "plasma"?

I mostly like KDE for the applications, which I usually filter through fluxbox, so if the applications don't change much I guess I shouldn't care, but I do like to use a full-fledged desktop environment sometimes, and for the past couple of years, it's been KDE.

I'm sure that once you get used to it, all of this plasma-oxygen-widgets-dolphin-dashboard stuff combines into a well-thought-out, unified concept, but why in the name of all that's holy did someone apparently decide that I wasn't going to want a keybinding to open a terminal window? What is up with that?

Now, I know from experience that whenever I am this pissed off, it is usually a prelude to me finding out that I am wrong. Boy, will my face be red! I can't wait.

[blackbelt_jones]

Okay, thank God, I was wrong. I have no idea how I stumbled upon it, but there is a way to create custom keyboard shortcuts. I don't know why they couldn't have linked me to it from this other keyboard shortcuts interface, but for the moment, I am placated. It still seems like a mess, but if I can have my keyboard shortcuts, I'm willing to give it a closer look.

[paj12]

Most of the development cycle for KDE 4.0 was spent laying the groundwork for improvements that will come in KDE 4.1. KDE 4 may seem like a mess right now, but the low-level work is mostly done. Now comes the exciting part where application developers get to take advantage of the new features.

And, yes, dolphin sucks, but Konqueror is not going anywhere. It is still the default web browser of KDE and will retain all its other capabilities.

[deathadder]

I can't really comment, but the guys at http://lugradio.org (Season 5 Episode 10) were brutally honest with their opinions of KDE 4.0.

http://forums.lugradio.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3875

From what I've heard so far, it's getting less and less likely that I'll look at it...

[blackbelt_jones]

Thanks, paj12, that sounds reasonable. That's just what I wanted to hear. Dolphin isn't bad. I very much like the fact that you can open it with root access... but it bugs me that icons on the desktop behave differently than icons in dolphin/konqueror. I'll come back to it when 4.1 comes out. It does look gorgeous.

Thanks for the link deathadder, I'm an occasional listener, and I'm dying to know what those sods at lugradio have to say. I don't remember registering for the lugradio forums, but apparently I did, back in 2006.

One thing's certain; I need some freaking real keyboard shortcuts!

[blackbelt_jones]

Okay, you know what? To hell with this. I can't prove anything, but I have a strong suspicion that no matter what anyone tells you, as a file manager, Konqueror has been marked for death. I've been searching up and down the toolbar and the button to show hidden files seems to be missing. Okay, maybe it's SUSE that is causing the trouble, but a file manager that can go almost anywhere might as well not exist. This has all the ear marks of sabatoge. This sounds like paranoia when talking about KDE, but if I accused Microsoft of doing something like this, it would seem perfectly reasonable.

In order to view hidden files, I have to open Dolphin. And since Dolphin looks so much like Konqueror, I usually have no idea which I'm using at any given moment. I know a train wreck when I see one, and this is a goddamn train wreck. I'll try the next KDE when it comes out, but I'm fully prepared to hunker down with my stable debian and pray for a good long time before the next release.

Like I've said before, when I'm this pissed off, it's usually a prelude to me finding out that I'm completely wrong. If that's what happens this time, I won't be afraid to admit it.

[quip]

Okay, you know what? To hell with this. I can't prove anything, but I have a strong suspicion that no matter what anyone tells you, as a file manager, Konqueror has been marked for death. I've been searching up and down the toolbar and the button to show hidden files seems to be missing. Okay, maybe it's SUSE that is causing the trouble, but a file manager that can go almost anywhere might as well not exist. This has all the ear marks of sabatoge. This sounds like paranoia when talking about KDE, but if I accused Microsoft of doing something like this, it would seem perfectly reasonable.

...snip...

Like I've said before, when I'm this pissed off, it's usually a prelude to me finding out that I'm completely wrong. If that's what happens this time, I won't be afraid to admit it.


I don't know of the button you speak of, but in KDE4, OpenSuse, I go to the same place to see hidden files in Konqueror that I did in KDE 3.x--View, then Show Hidden Files.

KDE4 might not be everyone's cup of tea, and it can be frustrating when things change, and we have to adapt to some new ideas/places/whatever. Also, much more _has_ been put into Dolphin for the file management stuff. However, yes, you might be a wee bit paranoid about this whole thing.

[blackbelt_jones]

I don't know of the button you speak of, but in KDE4, OpenSuse, I go to the same place to see hidden files in Konqueror that I did in KDE 3.x--View, then Show Hidden Files.

KDE4 might not be everyone's cup of tea, and it can be frustrating when things change, and we have to adapt to some new ideas/places/whatever. Also, much more _has_ been put into Dolphin for the file management stuff. However, yes, you might be a wee bit paranoid about this whole thing.


Of course I looked under "view"! Every gnu/linux desktop application in the history of ever puts "show hidden files" under "view"! If Konqueror has a "show hidden file" somewhere, it's not under "view". Not in opensuse anyway. Since the button isn't there, it doesn't matter whether I'm being paranoid or not. If I can't access hidden files with Konqueror, it'll kill Konqueror as a desktop file manager. Whether it's premeditated murder, negligent homicide, or a drunk driving hit-and-run doesn't matter.


KDE4 isn't that bad, it's cleaner and faster, and it looks great, and I can work around the paucity of keybindings... but I won't tolerate changes to Konqueror. Konqueror is the only desktop application I really couldn't live without. Konqueror is the most powerful desktop application I have ever seen. Dolphin doesn't come close, though it comes closer than anything else. I'm still making amazing discoveries in Konqueror. Just last week I got Konqueror reading documents out loud with Festival for the first time, something that allows me to retain a lot more when I read documentation. Konqueror is not the best web browser out there, but the fact that it's a web browser/file manager makes it possible to create html links that will do just about anything. I have created local html pages with links that opened emacs, opened my fluxbox configuration files with kwrite for quick updating, played a mozart playlist with xmms. Konqueror can export text as html for easy reading. It allows me to bookmark a directory and then open a terminal there, thus speeding up navigation at the command line. It allows me to quicky find the path of any file. Change Konqueror and hundreds of Konqueror fanatics like me will start our own DE with KDE source code. You can be absolutely sure of that.

Dolphin is a very fine desktop application. Don't change Konqueror.

[blackbelt_jones]

Okay, well, here's a horrible new development! When I hit F4 to open a terminal window in Konqueror, the terminal opens to my home directory, not the present working directory. This is all ****ed up!

P.S. Just wiped that opensuse system, so I won't be tempted to mess with it anymore, and I won't have to complain about it anymore. Unfortunate releases happen sometimes.

[quip]

Of course I looked under "view"! Every gnu/linux desktop application in the history of ever puts "show hidden files" under "view"! If Konqueror has a "show hidden file" somewhere, it's not under "view". Not in opensuse anyway.

Well, it took me all of five seconds to find it, in OpenSuse.

I don't really care if you use KDE4 or not; I just thought I would help you out a little, and maybe slow down your rant about a missing feature that is actually there.

Maybe Konqueror is no longer opening up in File Management mode (aka view profile) by default; I don't know.

Anyway, here's a screenshot showing you what I'm talking about.

Good luck.

[blackbelt_jones]

Well, it took me all of five seconds to find it, in OpenSuse.

I don't really care if you use KDE4 or not; I just thought I would help you out a little, and maybe slow down your rant about a missing feature that is actually there.

Maybe Konqueror is no longer opening up in File Management mode (aka view profile) by default; I don't know.

Anyway, here's a screenshot showing you what I'm talking about.

Good luck.

I promise you, I looked there, again and again. This must be a bug fix from 4.0 to 4.01, and thank god!

There were other problems, but as you can see from my last post, I already effectively ended my rant by wiping the opensuse partition. Clearly, I am much too excitable to be messing with KDE 4 until it gets to 4.1.

[paj12]

When KDE 4 was still in beta, there was a Live CD (http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde4livecd.html) of Debian sid with the new KDE packages from experimental. They appear to have taken it down, but the web page says "Coming Soon." Presumably, they're redoing it now that KDE 4.0 is released. I plan to check it out once they put the link back up. Maybe you would like that better than OpenSuSE.

[blackbelt_jones]

When KDE 4 was still in beta, there was a Live CD (http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde4livecd.html) of Debian sid with the new KDE packages from experimental. They appear to have taken it down, but the web page says "Coming Soon." Presumably, they're redoing it now that KDE 4.0 is released. I plan to check it out once they put the link back up. Maybe you would like that better than OpenSuSE.

What's the matter? Do you miss my ranting already?:rolleyes: I think I'll just wait till 4.1.

Actually, what I was thinking of doing was installing Debian Sid on that spare partition.

[frimann]

"blackbelt_jones"

"What's the matter? Do you miss my ranting already? I think I'll just wait till 4.1."

Your rants are a lot of times about something thats not even true.

Like the statement you made in this thread.

Have you any idea what sort of effort the programmers of kde4 did to make this happen.

Give kde4 untill 4.1

[blackbelt_jones]

"blackbelt_jones"

"What's the matter? Do you miss my ranting already? I think I'll just wait till 4.1."

Your rants are a lot of times about something thats not even true.

Like the statement you made in this thread.

Have you any idea what sort of effort the programmers of kde4 did to make this happen.

Give kde4 untill 4.1

Well, I think it it was true, but apparently it had already been fixed. I had 4.0, and quip had 4.0.1, which was all about bugfixes,

Or at least that's my story. I went right to that menu and looked it up and down several times. It's hard to imagine that I could have missed the exact thing that I was looking for, in a list of about seven items, when I checked that menu at least four times. I wish I hadn't deleted it now, so I could give it another look.

I certainly overreacted and I apologize for that, but it was a premature release. And when you release things prematurely, people freak.

[frimann]

peace.
I am allso guilty.

[E1PHOTON]

the ladies hate the pre-releases. that's what dkeav told me...

[je_fro]

I'm not planning on taking a look until 4.3 or so...

[paj12]

I'm not planning on taking a look until 4.3 or so...
I think I'll hold off until 4.5.8. It should be stable by then. ;)

[blackbelt_jones]

peace.
I am allso guilty.

Love the cat avatar, btw.

[cybertron]

I'm not planning on taking a look until 4.3 or so...
Ditto. From what I've heard 4.0 is really just a beta and the real features won't be implemented until later. I'm just praying that so many major distros going with Gnome by default won't push KDE to become more Gnomeish since I really don't like a lot of things about Gnome.

[blackbelt_jones]

Let me explain something:

This whole KDE4 is going to be stressful for me. I've got a good thing going with my customized desktop setup, which runs KDE applications in fluxbox. I actually fantasize about releasing it someday under the name "Kickbox".

It's all very dependent on features in Konqueror that complement fluxbox but are sort of redundant in KDE. So, naturally, as KDE 4 unfolds, I'm waiting for the axe to fall.

[frimann]

Plasma needs work, i hate not to be able to change the taskbar.
I was reading on the plasma wiki that in 4.1 they will have panel settings back and in 4.0.2 you will be able to change the height in a text file.
I tried that on 4.0.1 and it did not take.

[blackbelt_jones]

I just installed an unstable "Sid" debian system next to my stable "Etch" Debian, and Sid is still using KDE 3.5.8 (Etch uses 3.5.5). KDE 4 is available as part of the "experimental" branch, which I had never heard of before.

Seriously, if it's not stable enough for Unstable Debian, it's not stable enough for an official release... or at the very least, it's not stable enough for me, cause I get all emotional. I'll try it again when the maintainers of the Sid repositories think it's ready.

[con]

Jesus F. Christ! This is just like one of those n00b-rants-threads where some guy has installed "Linux" for the first time and cant get his winmodem to work and draws the conclusion linux sux and is evil and he is the God chosen one to save the world from the evils of linux and GNU! But he also *knows* how to improve Linux so that itll be good for everyone, if someone just would listen....


With all due respect blackbelt, I know you are a frequent poster here but you are god honestly starting to sound like the windows users I have to put up with at work every day....

[cybertron]

Seriously, if it's not stable enough for Unstable Debian, it's not stable enough for an official release... or at the very least, it's not stable enough for me, cause I get all emotional. I'll try it again when the maintainers of the Sid repositories think it's ready.
To be fair, this doesn't mean that KDE 4 is itself too unstable, just that the package and integration into the distro may not be ready yet. Debian isn't exactly known for being on the bleeding edge after all, and that's probably even more true with a piece of software that even the devs admit isn't really the final version.

[blackbelt_jones]

To be fair, this doesn't mean that KDE 4 is itself too unstable, just that the package and integration into the distro may not be ready yet. Debian isn't exactly known for being on the bleeding edge after all, and that's probably even more true with a piece of software that even the devs admit isn't really the final version.

Well, they didn't tell me. I went to the KDE site, clicked on the link that said "stable" and this was what I got.

It all gets academic at this point, but isn't unstable debian supposed to be bleeding edge?

Jesus F. Christ! This is just like one of those n00b-rants-threads where some guy has installed "Linux" for the first time and cant get his winmodem to work and draws the conclusion linux sux and is evil and he is the God chosen one to save the world from the evils of linux and GNU! But he also *knows* how to improve Linux so that itll be good for everyone, if someone just would listen....


With all due respect blackbelt, I know you are a frequent poster here but you are god honestly starting to sound like the windows users I have to put up with at work every day....

That's because you're not reading very closely. There are two possibilities here: "complete disaster" and "preemature release". I started this thread in a complete panic, fearing the first, more dire possibility, going completely over the top, up to and including paranoia. In the course of the discussion was convinced by other posters of the latter, much less serious possibility.

In terms of the future of KDE, a premature release is no big deal. You just have to wait it out.

Still, I grumble a little. It's annoying, and I don't think it's good policy. I think an official release ought to be workable. ANything before that ought to be a preview release, or a release candidate. I may be naive in this, or misinformed. I don't remember living through a major KDE release before. Maybe be the standards are different than when a distro is released.

But I am no longer worried that KDE is doomed, and that anything more serious than bad timing is at fault. I have completely revised my thesis, resolved to wait it out, and I even apologized for overreacting. How is that a rant? Do ranters change their position in mid-rant? Do they make self deprecating comments about getting too emotional?

Believe me, reading what I write after installing a premature release on my computer does not annoy you as much as installing it on my computer was for me. I think I have a right to complain, and to warn other people who interpret an official release to be mopre than it is. However, to get around to the title of this thread, It has been explained to me why KDE4 is not a disaster. And I have been convinced. I'll try it again when it gets added to Sid.

I'm proud of my contribution to this forum, but sadly, I do occasionally rave-- and, even in my own opinion, I have occasionally been very very wrong. It happens. Sometimes, KDE-like, I release my opinions prematurely. Fortunately, the value of these discussions doesn't ride on me being right all the time. I learned some valuble things from this discussion, and that's why I'm here. I'm certainly not here to annoy anyone. That's all gravy.

[je_fro]

It's annoying, and I don't think it's good policy.

Release early, release often I say.

Sometimes, KDE-like, I release my opinions prematurely.
heh...

[frimann]

"peace.
I am also guilty."

I made a much more scolding post, hove dare he make this comment about kde4 and so on.
But i had the sense to read it over and tone it down.
And then apologized fore the post i did not send

Over reaction is just as bad as ranting.

So i will take a breather and stay calm if people criticize kde4, some of it is deserved.

"Love the cat avatar, btw."

Thats my brothers cat, i took that picture 2 years ago.

[Darkbolt]

I think I have a right to complain

Did you pay for it? No?..No, then, you don't have a right to complain.

You do however have the right to do something about it.


I might suggest trying to find a snapshot of kde 3.0, or even 2.2, it might give you a reference of how far things can come in a short period of time

[blackbelt_jones]

Did you pay for it? No?..No, then, you don't have a right to complain.

Well, actually, legally, I do.

Besides, I put it on my computer, and that is a real investment. Other than that, I have nothing more to say about this,

[paj12]

Well, actually, legally, I do.
You have the right to remain silent. Should you give up this right, anything you say can and will be used against you in a flamewar.
You have the right to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs or hire a programmer to adapt it for you. If you can not afford a programmer, one will be appointed for you.
You have the right to file a bug report with the developers for a redress of grievances.
You have the right to a fair and speedy trial before a jury of your moderators.

;)

[blackbelt_jones]

You have the right to remain silent. Should you give up this right, anything you say can and will be used against you in a flamewar.
You have the right to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs or hire a programmer to adapt it for you. If you can not afford a programmer, one will be appointed for you.
You have the right to file a bug report with the developers for a redress of grievances.
You have the right to a fair and speedy trial before a jury of your moderators.

;)

Guess I have more to say.

Well, it looks to me like KDE is doing a fine job of developing KDE4, I just wish that it had been called something other than an official release. It should be an alpha or a beta or a release candidate or something. I wouldn't have installed it, and we would have all been spared this awkward and embarrassing display of frustration and paranoia.

I can see that a lot of people were better informed than me. If I was a more sophisicated user, I might have known better, but it's exactly the unsophisticated user I'm concerned about here.

And I will convey this, as politely as possible, to kde. It's not exactly a bug, so I don't think a bug report is called for.

I think I solved the problem for myself. I'm using Sid instead of Etch now (actually, I have both installed) which means that I'll get KDE4 when the Sid distro maintainers think it's ready.

[Darkbolt]

Well, actually, legally, I do.

Besides, I put it on my computer, and that is a real investment. Other than that, I have nothing more to say about this,
You installed software on your computer that specifically came without warranty. In doing so, you acknowledged that.


Really, with all the time that you've invested in installing, uninstalling, and ranting about said software, you may well have been able to pick up some C++, and fixed a bug or two.

Any *.0 piece of software you can pretty much expect not to be at its prime...Would you expect them to take the next 2 years to bring you a release that might be as full featured as 4.3 might be? For that matter, compare the linux kernel at 2.6.0 to 2.6.23, there's quite a bit of change. How many people adopted 2.6.0 right away? not very many.

I think perhaps you should do more research before installing bleeding edge software. If you had, I'm sure you would have found that the 4.0 release wasn't the prettiest thing in the world.

[quip]

You installed software on your computer that specifically came without warranty. In doing so, you acknowledged that.


Really, with all the time that you've invested in installing, uninstalling, and ranting about said software, you may well have been able to pick up some C++, and fixed a bug or two.

Any *.0 piece of software you can pretty much expect not to be at its prime...Would you expect them to take the next 2 years to bring you a release that might be as full featured as 4.3 might be? For that matter, compare the linux kernel at 2.6.0 to 2.6.23, there's quite a bit of change. How many people adopted 2.6.0 right away? not very many.

I think perhaps you should do more research before installing bleeding edge software. If you had, I'm sure you would have found that the 4.0 release wasn't the prettiest thing in the world.

Seriously, I think you have made your point, okay?

Yes, OP is an experienced user that could have researched it a bit more, and probably is well aware of the "release early, release often" mantra of most open source projects, and many of us have a different impression of KDE4.

But he has already apologized, whether necessary or not.

Not to mention, while complaining w/o purchasing or contributing or whatever might be bad form, he definitely has that right--and not just legally. It's akin to people saying that if you don't vote, then you can't compain--BS. If something is not right (in your opinion), then you definitely have the right to complain.

You just might get more positive response if you have paid/contributed.

[blackbelt_jones]

You installed software on your computer that specifically came without warranty. In doing so, you acknowledged that.


Really, with all the time that you've invested in installing, uninstalling, and ranting about said software, you may well have been able to pick up some C++, and fixed a bug or two.

Any *.0 piece of software you can pretty much expect not to be at its prime...Would you expect them to take the next 2 years to bring you a release that might be as full featured as 4.3 might be? For that matter, compare the linux kernel at 2.6.0 to 2.6.23, there's quite a bit of change. How many people adopted 2.6.0 right away? not very many.

I think perhaps you should do more research before installing bleeding edge software. If you had, I'm sure you would have found that the 4.0 release wasn't the prettiest thing in the world.

I acknowledged what? I acknowledged that if it doesn't work I'm not allowed to complain about it? Are you high? I'm always arguing with MS fanboys who say that the Linux community isn't open to criticism, and I tell them that we're always open to criticism from people who share our goals. I still believe that, but you appear to be the exception.

And screw you and your C++. I'm not a programmer. I'm a user, and users count. I consider it my role in the Linux Community to advocate for users and help make a place for users in Linux culture. In my opinion, users is what Linux needs most.

[je_fro]

That just about sums it up! :)