Tired of poor hardware support? How do we change it?

[ions]

We have our yell at ATi thread (http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132346) which is a good start but they're not the only ones who treat us poorly. Nvidia is doing a real job on us as well. Want a 939 socket board that's not Nforce? Not many around. Not a lot of support for that chipset in Linux at all. And just so everyone is aware, this is not about finding a solution to my specific problem. So what are our choices? We 'vote' with our dollars supposedly, so let's not buy the crap that these companies release. I'll dust off my abacus now cause if that's the course of action we take we'll disappear. The only thing I can think of to do, fortunately I'm good at it, is complain. Loud, hard and long. We can't just roll back and use old hardware.

I have a brand new mobo with no working sound. I do have an old soundcard that I know I could plug in and it would work fine but who does that help? Me, a little. I'm still not getting what I paid for. Stop being complacent and demand value for your money. Yes, I know that it doesn't say Linux is supported anywhere on the box of the mobo I bought. That's no longer acceptable. In fact, if the official stand is Linux is not supported I want to see that on the retail boxes. Don't half *** us with 4th rate drivers and consider yourselves supportive. Our numbers are great enough and our money is just as good as anyone elses, we deserve to be reckoned with.

This is the purpose of this thread. Think of ways we can let manufacturers know being ignored is no longer tolerated. Our numbers are great enough and our money is just as good as anyone elses, we deserve to be reckoned with. Let's be heard. Here are a few ways I thought of to get some attention.

1. Complain on their forums. If something doesn't work - and it truly doesn't work it's not just that you didn't do your part of it complain on their official forums. All of you. Don't sit and lurk. Put the numbers on the board. Even if you just chime in with a "this doesn't work for me as well" it's displaying that there's a deficiency to many, not an obscure minority.

2. Call them! Email them! Do some research and email bigwigs asking why the stuff doesn't work. Call them even. Leave messages with secretaries. You wanna talk with the VP of Technology of some company? If you're good with google and a telephone you can. And I don't mean calling tech support peons. I mean the real employees in the company! Call em! Complain. Happen to have a number for one of these companies? Post it!

3. Buy stuff and return it. Do it to the big chains with their juicy return policies. Don't abuse the product, whatever you bought, make sure it doesn't work to your satisfaction in Linux and return it. Make sure they know why you're returning it. Leave a small post it tucked in a manual with DOES NOT WORK IN LINUX written on it. Don't do this to little guys - unfair and they don't have the voice that the bigger retail chains do.

4. Be vocal in the stores. Ever see someone about to by a board made by a certain company with really poor support? I do all the time. Whenever I see someone buying an ATi card I tell em not to. "I had a terrible time getting it to work on my system!! It was soooooo frustrating! And then Ati ignored me for support!" You don't have to tell these people you were using Linux. That should no longer matter!

4. We need a hardware blacklist. If a manufacturer doesn't support Linux lets make that very visible here. It's the purpose of the board isn't it? Assisting others with Linux issues?

Let them know we have money and we want to spend it on good products!

[dannybunkins]

And I don't mean calling tech support peons

I thank you for this comment, because I myself am a hardware tech support PeeOn and dont appriate listening to people complain about issues I have no control over.

[ions]

How quickly would you get fired if you started giving out the phone number to people who could do something about this?

[stumbles]

Blacklist. I like that idea it would make things a little simpler if there were a centrally maintained list. It can get a bit daunting looking through the compatibility lists some distros maintain. Just tell me what to stay away from.

On another note. My ASUS A8N-SLI, NFORCE 4, 939 chipset board has been rock solid. No problems with the built in firewire, usb or AC97.

[hlrguy]

Hmm, you have given me an idea. What about a web site where you go and register the money and product you didn't buy, and then the one you did based on Linux support. Keep fraud down by making it a login type deal with password emailed to address before you can get in. I'd love to tell Cannon that they have lost close to $1K in principle based on their refusal to support gphoto, etc. I simply refused to even look at their cameras. HP with it's vendor supplied open source drivers got my bussiness over Lexmark, Cannon, etc. Money talks, and if enough people took the time to list what they didn't purchase, and word gets around that ATI lost 25K video card purchases explicitly because of lack of Linux support, well folks, money talks. HP, I didn't purchase your lightscribe DVD drive because there is no lighscribe driver in Linux, etc.

hlrguy

[stumbles]

Well I suppose registering would help keep fraud down. I might suggest to disallow any anonymous posting. Email address verification would be useful. It would have to be a really honest, straightforward but mostly accurate list. How to do that I am not sure.

Anyway. Somethings just flat out don't work with Linux. I think I remember seeing a list from the kernel folks of those type things but don't remember where that was.

Hmm. Odd you should say that about Canon. I have the GL-1 firewire video camera and a S70 usb digital camera. The GL-1 works fine with kino and dvgrab. Once I figured out hotplug/udev/etc the S70 has been flawless with digikam/gphoto.

Your right about ATI though. They are no longer on my buy or recommendation lists.

[soulestream]

Hmm, you have given me an idea. What about a web site where you go and register the money and product you didn't buy, and then the one you did based on Linux support.


The problem is you will have alot of people posting that X video card and X mobo dont work and they took them back, when they just didnt know how to set them up. You will need some way to weed out user error vs. no drivers

soule

[hlrguy]

Hmm. Odd you should say that about Canon. I have the GL-1 firewire video camera and a S70 usb digital camera. The GL-1 works fine with kino and dvgrab. Once I figured out hotplug/udev/etc the S70 has been flawless with digikam/gphoto.

I know that Canon camera's are well supported in Linux, but only due to the perseverence and dedication of those who built drivers in spite of Canon, not because of them. I inhereted a sureshot and it worked great in Linux, but again, despite Cannon, not because of them.

Even today, just now, http://www.canon.com/search/index.html and put in Linux, ZERO hits.

hlrguy

P.S. They may make super cameras (I love my kodak DX6490 though), that I won't purchase.

[dkeav]

as far as your blacklist idea goes, thats really a matter of oppinion and experience level some more experience users might be able to get a piece of hardware going on the first run while others struggle with it, when having a blacklisted items may be referred by the wrong sort of user and something that is perfectly supported may get the bad nod just from the lack of a lesser user, that doesnt mean its not supported though and maybe other users would not have a problem with it

as with anything like that, there are too many factors involved and taking someones word over someone elses usually just gets you in trouble, if you had some sort of VERY in depth review process as in, an overwhelming percentage of users find it incompatible, thats fine, but if you have 10 users who have it working with little trouble as compared to their respective abilities than the gripes of the others is wrong and claiming something as broken would be false

as with anything hardware, you HAVE to do your homework prior to purchase and only purchase what you believe is within your own capabilities since you are the root of the support for it

[GmarAppledude]

If something turns out to be exceedingly complicated to install then isn't that going to be as bad as it not working for all but the most knowledgable or persistant. I have stuff I know could work, but doesn't because I either don't know how or have given up. For example my build in soundcards optical output. Life too short to spend configuring every night.

I share everyones grievances on this.

[PenguinOfWonder]

I think making a "what works list" would be more valuable than a "what dosen't work list." I know I would be more apt to look at the first one. Like dkeav said, a hardware blacklist may not be a good idea because some users are better at getting hardware to work than others. If you are going to start a list of any kind you have to make sure people are very specific about whats going on. They should list their distro, thier kernel. They should if possiable list all the errors they recieve and what they've tried to do to fix it. Of course no list will ever be perfect because people make mistakes, but a torrerable list is better than no list, in my opinion anyway. As soulestream said there should also be a way to list wether or not drivers actually exist in Linux for the hardware as opposed to just not being able to get the drivers to work.

If someone makes a list it should be easily found. I know that might sound silly, but I always find it very difficult to find any kind of list at all. Alot of lists I have found are on forums, and Google dosen't seem to register those very well. Perhaps a site devoted entriely to what works and dosent work would be best. Something google, yahoo, and even MSN :p would easily find. On my blog I post all my hardware troubles with linux. I honestly haven't had very many yet. But like most people I am very aware of how few people actually look at blog much less read it. So thats obviously not the answer.

[je_fro]

there's already one of those... http://linuxcompatible.org
It has always seemed a bit out of date to me, though...
EDIT: WHAT?!? You now have to register to search the compatability database?!?!?
nevermind, linuxcompatible just lost my Seal of Approval

[soulestream]

ive found searching the commments section on newegg can be helpful. If you have 4 people give it thumbs up with Linux, you are probably safe. If one says it doesnt work, I start googling. That helps cover the "user error" problem.


soule

[con]

2. Call them! Email them! Do some research and email bigwigs asking why the stuff doesn't work. Call them even. Leave messages with secretaries. You wanna talk with the VP of Technology of some company? If you're good with google and a telephone you can. And I don't mean calling tech support peons. I mean the real employees in the company! Call em! Complain. Happen to have a number for one of these companies? Post it!

Agred! Theres nothing like angry emails and phone calls:D

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

How quickly would you get fired if you started giving out the phone number to people who could do something about this?

I can say with authority very quickly, most likely. If the people involved have any authority to make decisions regarding OS support, they probably have some kind of power to drop people.

I'm on board with dannybunkins, because I have, and am in some respects, still a tech support peon, and it does no good to get on those people's case.

Ring! Hello, tech support? You morons need to get on it and write a driver for my sound card!!!!

Yeah, I'll get our devs on that immediately :rolleyes:. However, if a large enough customer base, or a large enough customer expressed that need, watch how much more quickly things move.

[StarTiger]

I think making a "what works list" would be more valuable than a "what dosen't work list."

To that I'd add a adverage difficulty of user install. If a lot of people can rate how hard it was for them to setup, say on a scale from nube to PhD-of-Comp-Sci-required. So that people who are looking at buying that can also get a feel for what it will take to setup befor they shell out money.

[PenguinOfWonder]

I think StarTiger brings up an excellent point. Difficulty is a very important issue. I'm trying to install Gentoo right now, and I personally think I'm in over my head, they should of warned me. :p

EDIT:
And its nice to see another West Virginian on here too!

[je_fro]

Well, if the hardware isn't supported in the first place, of course it's going to be "difficult to install". There are lots of devices that *Just Won't Work* in linux because the information needed to write drivers is held secret by a company that has no intention of supporting linux. If they did, they'd lose their preferred status with Big Brother. I consider the wireless drivers situation completely broken, for example.

[PenguinOfWonder]

I think Linux's biggest problem is the lack of advirtisment. If you ask people outside of the Linux community what they think or know about Linux they always have the same responce that alot of people have to apple. That they know nothing to very little about it, and are scared to use it. Especially when it means it may not work with all their hardware right out of the box. Which is something Microsoft has pushed as a selling point after 3.1 and 95 had terriable hardware support. Back to the point, when was the last time you saw Linux on TV or heard about it on the radio. Shoot, I don't even see linux adds on the web outside of people's blogs and sites that are already devoted to it (linux). Even big names like Novell and Red Hat don't advertise to the home user, only to businesses out for server software.

Linux dosen't have hardware support like Windows or Mac does because there is no reason to invest in it from a business standpoint. You'll make very little return on your investment, and like it or not thats the truth of it. The Linux Community is small compared to Windows. Its probably smaller than the apple market as well, certinaly not much bigger at best. When it comes to the home user (the server market is another issue) very few people use linux. If you make sure your hardware is Windows compatiable your chances of making big money selling it are alot better than if its made specifically for Linux. I know that, odds are you know that (even if you don't want to admit it), and more importantly, they (the hardware makers) know that.

Unless the Linux Community deciedes to branch out away from the die hards, the comp. sci. majors, the disgusted (with windows and/or apple), the lowly geeks, and the server market, we'll never have good hardware support.

[je_fro]

Unless the Linux Community deciedes to branch out away from the die hards, the comp. sci. majors, the disgusted (with windows and/or apple), the lowly geeks, and the server market, we'll never have good hardware support.
That's fine with me, I like things the way they are, actually. I only buy linux-supported hardware, and I don't particularly WANT the masses using GNU/Linux. Can you imagine what a cluster**** this place would turn into? And who are you calling lowly?!?!? :p

[dkeav]

turn into to? :p

[PenguinOfWonder]

lol I think to most of my friends and peers im a geek to, so I say that with the utmost humility. :D

I'm not saying things are bad the way they are. I'm just saying the Linux community has given Linux the ability to make a difference and seriously compete against Windows and Apple, and have hardware support like they do. Its now up to us (as users) to see it happen. And as je_fro said, thats only if you want it that way.

[dkeav]

basically you want the learning curve removed?

i kinda like having the learning curve in place, keeps the community a little more tidy

[PenguinOfWonder]

I beleive there is a difference between a learning curve and writting your own drivers though. It's one thing to have to work out problems with your new hardware, I enjoy that as well. On the other hand I don't enjoy knowing i'm going to have to do everything from scratch. I'm not that good, nor do I have that much free time to play with my computer. Installing and configuring linux takes enough of my time as it is, especially considering how much of a newb I am after one year at this. I still have to look up how to unpack a tarball for goodness sake!

[DarkDexter]

I have to agree with just about everyone on this... Linux hardware support is pretty spotty. I run Linux on mostly old hardware, not because I dont prefer Linux, but cause Linux dosent like to run on new hardware. I currently have a totally kick *** gaming rig that I'd love to dual boot with Linux (Windows for gaming, Linux everything else cause its safer and better). I really dont know what to say on a good solution, I think converting more people is great and all, but most people I get anywhere with drop intrest in Linux when some hardware dosent work. SuSE and Mepis have been my conversion tools thus far.

One of the weakest points in Linux is wireless cards. No matter how hard I try I cant get my WPC54G v2 working. I sill use my old B card that is slow and has awful range...

I really dont know that the solution is but I think cause we are such a small portion on the home market we will be pretty much consistantly ignored. I'm also a Mac user (Windows, Linux, FreeBSD too) and alot of times I get the same issues with hardware. Community size matters alot and Linux is really lacking on the home and laptop front.

However, I'll peresever and be the geek using Debian to take notes is class and dazzeling people with its slick GUI in KDE and the fact its running on ancient hardware. Geek pride my borthers and sisters, geek pride :D !

[leonpmu]

My biggest headache is webcams, basically I find them a waste of bandwidth, unfortunately most clueless people think that they are the best thing since sliced bread! I couldn't even get an antique Creative webcam to work. Also the interface software for them is just as weak.

What can we do about that?