kiyoshi
12-24-2004, 01:01 AM
I was wondering, which version of Linux is best for someone who hasn't really worked with it before and wants to learn how to use it by themselves?:confused:
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oakleys
12-24-2004, 01:22 AM
Mandrake.
CptKrf
12-24-2004, 01:44 AM
Knoppix or the old Red Hat 9 if you want to learn how to USE Linux like you would use Windows.
Suse if you are into heavy multimedia and don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of Linux.
Slackware or Debian if you want to LEARN Linux.
Gentoo or Debian without Xwindows if you want to learn it from the bottom up.
Debian with the stock woody installer if you want to learn Linux from the transistor level up. You will also learn your resistance to throwing the keyboard through the monitor. It ain't pretty but if you succeed in the installation you will have learned a ton of stuff.
CptKrf
Suse if you are into heavy multimedia and don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of Linux.
Slackware or Debian if you want to LEARN Linux.
Gentoo or Debian without Xwindows if you want to learn it from the bottom up.
Debian with the stock woody installer if you want to learn Linux from the transistor level up. You will also learn your resistance to throwing the keyboard through the monitor. It ain't pretty but if you succeed in the installation you will have learned a ton of stuff.
CptKrf
palsyboy
12-24-2004, 05:25 AM
I agree with CptKrf for the most part. SuSE is one of my favorite distros to get people into using Linux as a Windows substitute, since it's easy to set up. However, it's difficult to learn much about Linux by using SuSE other than (a) It's very, very cool (b) It's free. Or at least that's my experience. You will, however, gain basic familiarity with common packages/apps, KDE and/or GNOME, and some of the filesystem structure. You'll also get spoiled on how customizable everything is and on never having to shop for software. If you want something, you simply pluck it from the Internet.
Gentoo is a great way to learn Linux, though I'll side on using it with X (common graphical interface). But I wouldn't jump into Gentoo straight-out without a lot of dedication to learning and a second computer to use during the long, but rewarding, installation process.
Gentoo is a great way to learn Linux, though I'll side on using it with X (common graphical interface). But I wouldn't jump into Gentoo straight-out without a lot of dedication to learning and a second computer to use during the long, but rewarding, installation process.
DSwain
12-24-2004, 01:08 PM
I would have to say Red Hat 9 also. It is by far one the best balances between ease of use and chances to learn Linux a little better. I started with Mandrake as my first but I started beginning to understand things much more so once I sat down with RH9. Problem is though that RH9 is getting somewhat dated now. You may want to think about Fedora Core 2 or 3 which is relativly similar.
The problem with jumping right into an install like Debian or Gentoo is that you can go through an installation without really learning anything. I mean if you really take in the info then yeah there's abundance to learn about, but if you follow the handbook (for Gentoo) or whatever install docs for Debian, you can do the whole thing and not really understand a single thing you've done. So, personally to start on something somewhat easier and more familiar and then you can learn the small things you need to do piece by piece. Then by the time you feel ready for a bigger install, you understand more clearly what's going on and you can probably appriciate the handbook more for what it is than just copy and paste.
The problem with jumping right into an install like Debian or Gentoo is that you can go through an installation without really learning anything. I mean if you really take in the info then yeah there's abundance to learn about, but if you follow the handbook (for Gentoo) or whatever install docs for Debian, you can do the whole thing and not really understand a single thing you've done. So, personally to start on something somewhat easier and more familiar and then you can learn the small things you need to do piece by piece. Then by the time you feel ready for a bigger install, you understand more clearly what's going on and you can probably appriciate the handbook more for what it is than just copy and paste.
plainzwalker
12-24-2004, 01:14 PM
Linux 2005!!!! I can't wait till it comes out...wait...this isn't windows...nm.
mjjohansen
12-25-2004, 12:26 PM
Linux Longhorn, right? ;-)
Anyway, I would suggest beautiful, Debian-based UbuntuLinux (http://www.ubuntulinux.org). There are instructions for setting up multimedia and other things at the well-functioning Ubuntu Forums (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/) and the elaborate Ubuntu Guide (http://ubuntuguide.org/index.html).
Heard a lot of good things about the simplicity of Mepis, too.
Anyway, I would suggest beautiful, Debian-based UbuntuLinux (http://www.ubuntulinux.org). There are instructions for setting up multimedia and other things at the well-functioning Ubuntu Forums (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/) and the elaborate Ubuntu Guide (http://ubuntuguide.org/index.html).
Heard a lot of good things about the simplicity of Mepis, too.
ladoga
12-25-2004, 11:45 PM
Being myself a noob like you, i would suggest ubuntu. It's easy to use, fast etc. And debians apt universe has lots of easy to install programs.
Later on if you want to learn more maybe go for gentoo. Friend of mine started gentoo as his first distro, but hes very devoted to learning. I will rather learn at my own pace.
Later on if you want to learn more maybe go for gentoo. Friend of mine started gentoo as his first distro, but hes very devoted to learning. I will rather learn at my own pace.
palsyboy
12-26-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by DSwain
if you follow the handbook (for Gentoo) or whatever install docs for Debian, you can do the whole thing and not really understand a single thing you've done.
That's certainly a possibility, but the process is so long and involved (hand-writing/modifying many config files, learning about USE flags) that it's more likely a new user will pick something up from it. The Gentoo install was the best Linux learning experience I've had. But of course, that's just my personal experience.
The other upside to Gentoo's install is that it usually doesn't go as perfectly as the Handbook dictates, so people often find themselves on the Gentoo Forums asking many questions and getting fixes. That's also quite valuable.
if you follow the handbook (for Gentoo) or whatever install docs for Debian, you can do the whole thing and not really understand a single thing you've done.
That's certainly a possibility, but the process is so long and involved (hand-writing/modifying many config files, learning about USE flags) that it's more likely a new user will pick something up from it. The Gentoo install was the best Linux learning experience I've had. But of course, that's just my personal experience.
The other upside to Gentoo's install is that it usually doesn't go as perfectly as the Handbook dictates, so people often find themselves on the Gentoo Forums asking many questions and getting fixes. That's also quite valuable.
ehawk
12-26-2004, 07:30 PM
Mepis was the easiest installation I have ever seen (I have installed mandrake, rh, fedora, knoppix, and mepis). Make sure the BIOS is set to boot from floppy, pop it in, and if everything is autodetected, a click on a desktop icon begins the hard drive installation. If you're not dual booting, ~4 default clicks total. It has a nice graphical front end for Debian's apt-get called kpackage. Stupid-simple.
I have not used Ubuntu, but hear it uses the Debian Sarge net-installer. I have seen this net-installer. It is not as simple as the Mepis hard drive installation routine.
I have not used Ubuntu, but hear it uses the Debian Sarge net-installer. I have seen this net-installer. It is not as simple as the Mepis hard drive installation routine.
DSwain
01-02-2005, 11:26 PM
No the Debian installer is not the easiest thing to use in the world but I haven't had any real issues with it on Ubuntu so I can't say it's bad.
As for Gentoo use palsyboy you're probably right but I see it going either way. It depends on who you are I would think. Like reading a novel. Anyone can read a novel but not everyone understands what actually happened, much less a deeper meaning to it and others can interprete it flawlessly and easily and enjoy it. So realistically I see this flowing in the same fashion but yeah it tends to be fairly involved so I say it could be a good way to do it.
I guess then I'd say use a live-cd type distro (Mepis is good and there are many others) and get used to the packages and those things to see how you feel in the overall environment. From that point if you really feel comfortable with it tackle a Gentoo install. Otherwise maybe go ahead and give the livecd you use a hard disk installation and see how partitioning in Linux will go over and so on. Whichever works I would say and feels right.
As for Gentoo use palsyboy you're probably right but I see it going either way. It depends on who you are I would think. Like reading a novel. Anyone can read a novel but not everyone understands what actually happened, much less a deeper meaning to it and others can interprete it flawlessly and easily and enjoy it. So realistically I see this flowing in the same fashion but yeah it tends to be fairly involved so I say it could be a good way to do it.
I guess then I'd say use a live-cd type distro (Mepis is good and there are many others) and get used to the packages and those things to see how you feel in the overall environment. From that point if you really feel comfortable with it tackle a Gentoo install. Otherwise maybe go ahead and give the livecd you use a hard disk installation and see how partitioning in Linux will go over and so on. Whichever works I would say and feels right.
Exodus2001
01-02-2005, 11:58 PM
MSLFS (Microsoft Linux from Scratch):D
JK...
I say Mandrake is the best for newbies.
JK...
I say Mandrake is the best for newbies.
soulestream
01-03-2005, 12:43 AM
i would also go with mandrake or suse.
prob...suse
i dont use either anymore, but from what i remember YAST will do everything a newb will need to
soule
prob...suse
i dont use either anymore, but from what i remember YAST will do everything a newb will need to
soule
fatTrav
01-03-2005, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by palsyboy
The other upside to Gentoo's install is that it usually doesn't go as perfectly as the Handbook dictates, so people often find themselves on the Gentoo Forums asking many questions and getting fixes. That's also quite valuable.
Yes...good G4L skills are required. I've _never_ had an install go just like the docs said. However, Gentoo is the only distro I know of that has a good library of documentation. You can learn a lot from the docs on their site. That is the best part of Gentoo actually, the quality of their documentation that is.
Slackware is also a good distro for learning and is simple enough that you will learn things fast. It has a reputation for being difficult, but I'd disagree. I think the way things are laid out makes it the easiest distro to setup, configure, and maintain.
The bottom line is any distro would be a fine choice (Though I'd pick a mainstream one just so that there will be more help available specific to your distro) as long as you make the commitment to learn.
The other upside to Gentoo's install is that it usually doesn't go as perfectly as the Handbook dictates, so people often find themselves on the Gentoo Forums asking many questions and getting fixes. That's also quite valuable.
Yes...good G4L skills are required. I've _never_ had an install go just like the docs said. However, Gentoo is the only distro I know of that has a good library of documentation. You can learn a lot from the docs on their site. That is the best part of Gentoo actually, the quality of their documentation that is.
Slackware is also a good distro for learning and is simple enough that you will learn things fast. It has a reputation for being difficult, but I'd disagree. I think the way things are laid out makes it the easiest distro to setup, configure, and maintain.
The bottom line is any distro would be a fine choice (Though I'd pick a mainstream one just so that there will be more help available specific to your distro) as long as you make the commitment to learn.
hop-frog
01-03-2005, 03:04 AM
To some of the previous responders: What is there to "learn" about Linux from Debian, Slackware, or Gentoo that you can't learn in Mandrake or SuSE? Debian, Slackware, and Gentoo certainly force you to do everything the hard way, but why would anyone want to do things the hard way? If you don't have to fool around with dependancies why bother? If there is a distribution that automatically detects hardware, partitions the harddrive, and has insert-disk point-and-click installation, why bother learning how xf86cfg and fdisk works and why mess with a primitive curses installer? Why learn a skill that you don't need when there are easier methods? I spent hundreds of hours learning how to setup and use Slackware and FreeBSD I can't say that the experience has helped me or is helping me today because these are all unnecessary skills.
Unless you need something for your résumé or you have 10-year-old computer, start with Mandrake or SuSE. Get familiar with the software and get comfortable with the command line. After that, if you feel like you want to rough it, then move on to some of the other distributions. Or build your own from scratch.
Unless you need something for your résumé or you have 10-year-old computer, start with Mandrake or SuSE. Get familiar with the software and get comfortable with the command line. After that, if you feel like you want to rough it, then move on to some of the other distributions. Or build your own from scratch.
palsyboy
01-03-2005, 03:45 AM
DSwain: Your novel-reading analogy is quite apt. Getting something out of the Gentoo installation depends on how gifted one is with computers, level of dedication, attention span, and previous Linux experience, amid other countless factors. As I think we both agree, it's not guaranteed. It worked for me, though, so I have a special affection for it. :)
Of the reasons the Gentoo install worked for me, I'll say that I'm not gifted with computers or very many other technical things, but I'm dedicated enough to trudge through beginning stages of use until a concept is pounded into my head. My attention span is also very large. And perhaps the biggest thing is that I had already run SuSE for two or three months, I'd tried Mandrake for a few days, I'd read Slackware Linux Essentials cover-to-cover, parts of Running Linux, 4th Edition, and most of the Linux Pocket Guide. I'd also tried hard to install Slackware (thanks for your immense help there, fatTrav, even if the project never panned out). So I had a decent amount of experience under my belt before trying to take on Gentoo. This story might elaborate on what should be done before trying a harder distro.
fatTrav: I agree with you on all points, especially on using a mainstream distro. Slackware gave me some trouble, but if someone is naturally better at technical stuff in general, they should enjoy it.
hop-frog: It certainly isn't necessary to learn Linux inside and out if you never plan on moving beyond SuSE, Mandrake, etc. But if you want to be able to tweak your machine, learning how to write your fstab, xorg.conf, etc. are valuable skills for the future. After using Gentoo for several months, I can't imagine going back to SuSE. The difference in speed is insane. :) That doesn't mean I don't absolutely love SuSE; it's just that some new Linux users might enjoy Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, etc. even more.
Of the reasons the Gentoo install worked for me, I'll say that I'm not gifted with computers or very many other technical things, but I'm dedicated enough to trudge through beginning stages of use until a concept is pounded into my head. My attention span is also very large. And perhaps the biggest thing is that I had already run SuSE for two or three months, I'd tried Mandrake for a few days, I'd read Slackware Linux Essentials cover-to-cover, parts of Running Linux, 4th Edition, and most of the Linux Pocket Guide. I'd also tried hard to install Slackware (thanks for your immense help there, fatTrav, even if the project never panned out). So I had a decent amount of experience under my belt before trying to take on Gentoo. This story might elaborate on what should be done before trying a harder distro.
fatTrav: I agree with you on all points, especially on using a mainstream distro. Slackware gave me some trouble, but if someone is naturally better at technical stuff in general, they should enjoy it.
hop-frog: It certainly isn't necessary to learn Linux inside and out if you never plan on moving beyond SuSE, Mandrake, etc. But if you want to be able to tweak your machine, learning how to write your fstab, xorg.conf, etc. are valuable skills for the future. After using Gentoo for several months, I can't imagine going back to SuSE. The difference in speed is insane. :) That doesn't mean I don't absolutely love SuSE; it's just that some new Linux users might enjoy Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, etc. even more.
jot-87
01-03-2005, 09:45 AM
I started out with Mandrake. I thought it was cool, worked well, but it was a pain to install things, and I love to download and install all sorts of junk.
+ Easy to use and install
- Difficult to find RPMs and a pain to compile when you hardly know what "compile" means in the first place, so finding software was hard unless you had it on the CDs
SuSE is great, especially with YaST. You can also add some FTP installation sources, which means that you can search for software, and YaST will download and install it for you.
+ Easy to install and use, lots of RPMs to download if you have the sources and the bandwidth. Easy to ajust the difficulty level to your experience.
- Can be tricky to find the YaST sources, but if you ask at a forum you'll probably get lots of help, so that's no big deal.
I have a friend who started out with Fedora, and he got along fine.
I started out with Mandrake, wasn't satisfied so I tried SuSE, then, when I had learned more, I whent on to Debian.
+ Easy to use and install
- Difficult to find RPMs and a pain to compile when you hardly know what "compile" means in the first place, so finding software was hard unless you had it on the CDs
SuSE is great, especially with YaST. You can also add some FTP installation sources, which means that you can search for software, and YaST will download and install it for you.
+ Easy to install and use, lots of RPMs to download if you have the sources and the bandwidth. Easy to ajust the difficulty level to your experience.
- Can be tricky to find the YaST sources, but if you ask at a forum you'll probably get lots of help, so that's no big deal.
I have a friend who started out with Fedora, and he got along fine.
I started out with Mandrake, wasn't satisfied so I tried SuSE, then, when I had learned more, I whent on to Debian.
fatTrav
01-03-2005, 10:51 AM
The things you will learn from Slackware in system administration and setup can be applied to other systems/distros. The same can not be said about Mandrake or other hand-holding distros. Knowing how and what to configure for service_x can be a lot more valuable than knowing which icon to click to set it up.
Mandrake is a great distro and is tops in getting a system up and running in about five minutes of post-install configuration. With Mandrake it is possible to (almost) never have to open some configuration file up with vi to edit it in order to get some service to work. I guess it just depends on how geeky or techy you are and your interest in a computer operating system.
Oh, the Slackware installer isn't primitive. It isn't pretty but it gets the job done. Debian's old installer, now THAT was primitive. The new installer is better but isn't on par with Slackware's text based isntaller imho.
Mandrake is a great distro and is tops in getting a system up and running in about five minutes of post-install configuration. With Mandrake it is possible to (almost) never have to open some configuration file up with vi to edit it in order to get some service to work. I guess it just depends on how geeky or techy you are and your interest in a computer operating system.
Oh, the Slackware installer isn't primitive. It isn't pretty but it gets the job done. Debian's old installer, now THAT was primitive. The new installer is better but isn't on par with Slackware's text based isntaller imho.
DSwain
01-03-2005, 04:36 PM
Well yeah you're right maybe there isn't a point to all those steps and knowing them for practical use. I'd say this is why Linux/BSD tend to be hobbyist OS's still. Some though could come in handy for scripting things for servers and other steps. Granted to anyone who wants to do basics and doesn't need to know anymore pretty huge waste of time so I suppose you're right.
blackbelt_jones
01-04-2005, 09:26 AM
If you're asking what is the easiest way to start, which would be a pretty reasonable thing to ask, it seems like everyone else in here seems to have heard a complete different question. Anyone who suggests that you start with Gentoo is not your friend.
The EASIEST way to start is with a live cd that you won't have to install. This beyond dispute: if you want easy, go live. My favorite is kanotix, but there are dozens to choose from, most of them available for free downloading. Here's a great big page of links:
http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php
Eventually, you might want to get an old second computer, where you can try installing as many different flavors of Linux as you like, without putting your main data at risk. A second hard drive is a reasonable alternative, but a second computer will allow you to have access to the net as you learn to install.
The first computer that I got only with Linux was an old Gateway 2000, with two 1 gigabyte hard drives and 40 MB of RAM. I ran Mandrake 8.1, and gosh, was it slow! I got it at a garage sale for 40 dollars, with the monitor included.
It's great to get experience by installing and then installing some more. Knowing you can reinstall your system if you have to is a great confidence builder. It allows you to try things with complete abandon. lf you can't fix sometihing any other way, you can always install your system all over again, and it'll be fine. It's a blunt tool, but a damned versatile one.
Geez I was finished answering your question three paragraphs ago!:rolleyes:
If you want to get into Linux without a lot of frustration and suffering, get a live CD, (Kanotix, Knoppix, etc.) especially if you have no experience installing. That is all.
The EASIEST way to start is with a live cd that you won't have to install. This beyond dispute: if you want easy, go live. My favorite is kanotix, but there are dozens to choose from, most of them available for free downloading. Here's a great big page of links:
http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php
Eventually, you might want to get an old second computer, where you can try installing as many different flavors of Linux as you like, without putting your main data at risk. A second hard drive is a reasonable alternative, but a second computer will allow you to have access to the net as you learn to install.
The first computer that I got only with Linux was an old Gateway 2000, with two 1 gigabyte hard drives and 40 MB of RAM. I ran Mandrake 8.1, and gosh, was it slow! I got it at a garage sale for 40 dollars, with the monitor included.
It's great to get experience by installing and then installing some more. Knowing you can reinstall your system if you have to is a great confidence builder. It allows you to try things with complete abandon. lf you can't fix sometihing any other way, you can always install your system all over again, and it'll be fine. It's a blunt tool, but a damned versatile one.
Geez I was finished answering your question three paragraphs ago!:rolleyes:
If you want to get into Linux without a lot of frustration and suffering, get a live CD, (Kanotix, Knoppix, etc.) especially if you have no experience installing. That is all.
FrankBlourtango
01-05-2005, 03:45 PM
How about whatever distro you can get to install correctly.... I messed around trying to get Debian installed for a couple weeks then tried Red Hat.
Bada Bing. fuggetaboudit.
Bada Bing. fuggetaboudit.
tlyons
01-08-2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by FrankBlourtango
How about whatever distro you can get to install correctly.... I messed around trying to get Debian installed for a couple weeks then tried Red Hat.
I had that experience with Slackware 10. After several attempts with several different CD's I trashed it because I kept getting fatal errors in packages as they were being installed. I tried Debian instead (using CDs burned by the same burner, same media) -- installed fine -- baddaboom, done.
No one was able to give me an explanation about the random fatal errors (different packages each time I tried). My burner isn't the best, but it burned discs that installed Debian afterward, and MDK before. Maybe Slack's install program is sensitive to hardware?
I'm loving Debian, so I'm not disappointed. I'll probably try Slack on a different rig someday though.
- T.
How about whatever distro you can get to install correctly.... I messed around trying to get Debian installed for a couple weeks then tried Red Hat.
I had that experience with Slackware 10. After several attempts with several different CD's I trashed it because I kept getting fatal errors in packages as they were being installed. I tried Debian instead (using CDs burned by the same burner, same media) -- installed fine -- baddaboom, done.
No one was able to give me an explanation about the random fatal errors (different packages each time I tried). My burner isn't the best, but it burned discs that installed Debian afterward, and MDK before. Maybe Slack's install program is sensitive to hardware?
I'm loving Debian, so I'm not disappointed. I'll probably try Slack on a different rig someday though.
- T.
tlyons
01-08-2005, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by kiyoshi
I was wondering, which version of Linux is best for someone who hasn't really worked with it before and wants to learn how to use it by themselves?:confused:
(finally getting around to the original question.)
I'd have to vote for Mandrake. Super simple to install... recognizes and configures hardware really well... nice selection of pre-installed packages...
Overall, a good choice for someone who wants to have the software already there and just dive in... burn some CDs, write documents, do the 'net... etc.
Once you get comfortable, you'd probably want to switch to Debian, or something Debian-based.
- T.
I was wondering, which version of Linux is best for someone who hasn't really worked with it before and wants to learn how to use it by themselves?:confused:
(finally getting around to the original question.)
I'd have to vote for Mandrake. Super simple to install... recognizes and configures hardware really well... nice selection of pre-installed packages...
Overall, a good choice for someone who wants to have the software already there and just dive in... burn some CDs, write documents, do the 'net... etc.
Once you get comfortable, you'd probably want to switch to Debian, or something Debian-based.
- T.
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