DSL for Linux turns out to be INCREDIBLY EASY!*

[blackbelt_jones]

*if you know what you're doing. For me, however, it was a bit a struggle...

DSL for Linux? I was really really apprehensive about this, ever since the telemarketer from Verizon asked me what kind of operating system I was using, and reacted with total ignorance when I told her I was running Redhat Linux. "Is that a Windows operating system?" she asked me. Kind of a stupid question from someone in the business of selling DSL, ne c'est pas?

Everyone I have ever talked to at Verizon assured me that it couldn't be done-- but the ubergeeks at the LUG meeting assured me that it could. So I took the leap of faith.

Okay, briefly, here's how I did it. I installed Windows XP (illegally). I set up the connection with the Windows software that Verizon supplied. I wiped XP, installed windows and set up the connection.

Except that in reality it wasn't that simple. The Verizon software did not detect my network card-- presumably, because it's built into the motherboard. So, in order to set up the DSL, I needed to use the USB cable to the modem. But Linux detected the card, and in order to get the DSL connection to configure for Windows, I had to make the connection with the ethernet cable. Suffice it to say, I did not figure this out right away. I tried several distros, and eventually, in frustration, I had reinstalled Windows, when I got the idea to plug in the ethernet cable and try it again.

And this is one of those situations when it turns out to be really really good to have a Knoppix disk handy. Everyone should have one. If not for Knoppix, I might be sitting here, just another Windows pirate, trapped in the incredibly frustrating situation of being forced to run a truly loathsome operating system on my awesome new computer. Knoppix allowed me to test my ethernet cable idea without erasing Windows yet again, and completely installing another Linux OS yet again. I booted up the live CD, clicked on the DSL configuration Wizard, and VOILA!

So I removed WIndows, and tried a couple of "HARD" Linux distros.

SuSE still wouldn't work. Hard to tell where the problem lies there. My SuSE disks are cheap copies purchased through EBAY, and I think they're a little messed up. So the fault may go to the disks themselves, or perhaps to the poor misguided son of a ***** who is trying to make the disks work. (I refer, of course, to myself.)

And then I tried CentOS-- and CentOS was amazing!
CentOS is a Red Hat clone, reworked directly from the RHEL source code. CentOS simply configured the whole connection automatically. And by that I mean... auto****ingmatically{/I]. I installed the distro, it booted, and I was online. I didn't even have to type in the username and password! How is that even [i]possible?

CentOS is not perfect for home use. Being an Enterprise Clone, it lacks some packages that I need, and good solid RHEL RPMS are not always easy to find. So I'm still looking for the perfect distro for my home computer. But now I can download and try almost all the distros in the world cuz I GOT FREAKIN' DSL!!!
:D

[JohnT]

Actually....... DSL is even easier than that to setup.
Did you try with RPPOE in Linux, before anything else?

[blackbelt_jones]

Oh Cmon, you LOVE telling me that:p ! Hey, don't worry about me; I'm too jazzed over my new computer and broadband to care!

Did I try PPOE? I tried something. Whatever I tried, it asked for a username and password, which I didn't have until I set up the account with windows. Are you telling me that I didn't need to do that?

Considering the way CentOS hooked me up without a username or password, I'm thinking it may well be that all that was unnecessary.

One thing I did do before anything else was do a search on this site for info. If I took a longer route than is necessary, it's comforting to know that the next person who does that will find this thread. So PLEASE tell me more.

[bsm2001]

even easier is this. (http://search.ebay.com/cable-dsl-router_W0QQsokeywordredirectZ1QQfromZR8)

[blackbelt_jones]

HMMM....
We seem to be editing out from under each other. A minute ago, I think you were asking me if I had tried PPPOE

RPPOE? No. Did not try that.

[blackbelt_jones]

I think the moral of the story is why the hell would Verizon rather tell me they can't service me than supply me with the little bit of information that I need to get DSL running? Surely SOMEONE in the huge Verizon corporate organization has heard of Linux, no? Linux already supplies the software, how about a goddamn pamphlet, guys? Sheesh.

I guess that way they couldn't shove MSN down my throat.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by blackbelt_jones
HMMM....
We seem to be editing out from under each other. A minute ago, I think you were asking me if I had tried PPPOE

RPPOE? No. Did not try that. The only info you need to setup DSL in Linux....is your username and password...and your primary and secondary DNS, using the application RPPPOE, which comes with most distros these days or is easily installable. With these in hand all you need to do is issue the command.."adsl-setup" from a terminal and answer about 5-6 questions and your ready to connect. This info Verizon has and is obligated to give it to you as a customer. Don't ever tell them your running Linux. They dont know how to do it, the majority, so they wont help if they know your running it. There are ways to get the info even if they don't want to co-operate.:D

[bsm2001]

I guess that way they couldn't shove MSN down my throat.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bwkaz]

Originally posted by JohnT
using the application RPPPOE, By which, of course, you mean RP-PPPoE (the Roaring Penguin PPPoE client).

Right?

;)

[JohnT]

Originally posted by bwkaz
By which, of course, you mean RP-PPPoE (the Roaring Penguin PPPoE client).

Right?

;) Hey...you knew what I meant. Never enough "P"'s. :p

[blackbelt_jones]

Yeah, the MSN thing was funny. Immediately after you set up the DSL you get words to the effect of: " and now, at no additional cost... we're giving you MSN as our gift to you... yadda yadda yadda..."

And then, they just roll it out. Instead of "Would like you MSN?" the user agreement appears, because, after all, of course I would like MSN! I'm not some sort of madman, am I? In the time since I had stopped using Windows, I had forgotten how annoying it is to be subjected to this "GOOD NEWS! THE STUFF YOU INSTALLED COMES WITH OTHER STUFF!" routine.

But the part that is unconscionable is the fact that verizon twice told me I couldn't get DSL for Linux, and it was a lie... and sure enough, they've got some kind of partnership with you-know-who. If I didn't go to LUG meetings I would have assumed that I hd to choose between Linux and DSL. This can't be legal, and I don't think its an accident. I've been subjected to smaller companies like CallWave who will tell you: no, we do not support Linux at this time. But with Verizon, a huge corporation with James Earl Jones as a spokesman, I always get the feeling that this is the first time anyone ever mentioned Linux to them. Linux? Sorry, I don't know; I'll have to go ask... What a load of CRAP!

( a few deep breaths)

So what you're telling me is that all I would have to do is call Verizon, and arrange to get a username and password by means other than the DSL installation program?

[The Whizzard]

For anyone that doesn't have Verizon DSL, you MUST run the supplied software(Win32/MacOS only) from Verizon to CREATE your account(username/password). After that you can use RP-PPPoE, routers, etc. with any OS you desire.

Until there is a Linux version to create Verizon DSL accounts, you will (temporarily) need a Win32/MacOS box.

I guess you can call Verizon and have them create your account but given their track record for support, it ain't gonna happen.

[JohnT]

So what you're telling me is that all I would have to do is call Verizon, and arrange to get a username and password by means other than the DSL installation program? I would just try to call and say,"Look, I'm running Win XP and I am going to connect using windows PPPoE client. I would rather not install your software as this computer is running a proprietary application and any installation of additional software other than what's included would void the warranty . All I need is my username, password and the primary and secondary DNS numbers I'll be using".

[linux12414]

Originally posted by The Whizzard
For anyone that doesn't have Verizon DSL, you MUST run the supplied software(Win32/MacOS only) from Verizon to CREATE your account(username/password). After that you can use RP-PPPoE, routers, etc. with any OS you desire.

Until there is a Linux version to create Verizon DSL accounts, you will (temporarily) need a Win32/MacOS box.

I guess you can call Verizon and have them create your account but given their track record for support, it ain't gonna happen.

Yup, exactly what I had to do (have Verizon). However, on that machine that I used, I had shrunk down the Win partition to the barest minimum, and needless to say, it was a joy to get the dialog box telling me that there wasn't enough disk space to install the MSN crap that came with it. Woo Hoo :D :D :D

I mentioned this in some other post on here, but I got around the lack of DNS #s by using a router. Since I have several boxes, now they are all networked.

BTW, it depends on who you talk to in tech support over at Verizon. There's some "geeks" that use Linux...in fact, out of 4 people I spoke to there, 3 actually *ran* Linux and I ended up talking at length to a nice fellow who was a Gentoo addict--who btw told me they have equipment just for non-win, non-mac people, at no extra cost. Apparently they have a combo dsl modem/router which can be substituted for the plain dsl modem.

[bwkaz]

My version of Roaring Penguin actually grabs DNS server addresses from the PPP peer (commonly referred to as the "server", but in PPP there is really no difference between the points, since it's one point to another, but whatever)... meaning that I don't actually need to know them ahead of time.

This is with SBC's service, though. It is possible that Verizon doesn't hand out DNS addresses in the PPP handshake, but then how would their Windows customers get them? They'd have to know them also, one way or the other.

Anyway, this is rp-pppoe version 3.5. It creates an /etc/ppp/resolv.conf, and then overwrites your /etc/resolv.conf with a symlink to the version in /etc/ppp (presumably you can configure whether this overwrite happens or not, but I've never looked at it -- my firewall / router / DNS / web / mail server machine needs the addresses anyway, so it knows where to forward uncached DNS requests from my internal network).

[blackbelt_jones]

Originally posted by The Whizzard
For anyone that doesn't have Verizon DSL, you MUST run the supplied software(Win32/MacOS only) from Verizon to CREATE your account(username/password). After that you can use RP-PPPoE, routers, etc. with any OS you desire.

Until there is a Linux version to create Verizon DSL accounts, you will (temporarily) need a Win32/MacOS box.

I guess you can call Verizon and have them create your account but given their track record for support, it ain't gonna happen.

Well, good... cause that's exactly what I did. By the way, I just installed Fedora Core 2, and like CentOS (and, presumably, RHEL) Fedora automatically configured my DSL without md doing a single blessed thing... no username, no password, no nothing. You install, you boot up, you're online. The only way it could get any easier would be if Fedora could pay my DSL bill.

Somewhere in the installation, there's a dialogue box asking you if you want to go online immediately on boot using DHCP. Default is yes.

[CoffeeMan]

I had really worked myself into a fury after my 25 foot crossover cable didn't work with my dsl connection. Then I check out a straigh up cat5 cable (cat5e dosn't work) and it just worked, Knoppix, SuSE, Mandrake Debian, Slackware, SLAX, and on and on, they all worked. I just set them to DHCP. ANd I was good to go.

[EnigmaOne]

At this point, you have things working, so maybe this isn't necessary--but for those who think broadband with Linux is some sort of difficult task to accomplish...well, keep reading.
Originally posted by The Whizzard
For anyone that doesn't have Verizon DSL, you MUST run the supplied software(Win32/MacOS only) from Verizon to CREATE your account(username/password). After that you can use RP-PPPoE, routers, etc. with any OS you desire.
That's news to me.
I never had to run anything on the pretty drink coaster Verizon gave me, and simply set the BB router to grab an IP via DHCP.
DNS addys are standard for all Verizon customers.
Grab your e-mail or manage your account with any browser. (https://sso.verizon.net/ssowebapp/VOLPortalLogin?ActualTarget=http://netservices.verizon.net/portal/site/verizon/../../verizon/protected/afterssologin.jsp?verizonTarget=https://netservices.verizon.net/portal/site/vz/../../../portal/site/vz/index.jsp?epi_menuItemID=6327986220a5c20f682db626a d65c7ec)

From what I understand, West Coast Verizon is DHCP/Static-IP (Yehaw!), and East Coast Verizon is PPoE (old Atlantic Bell territories--reputedly sucked).

In either case, getting the supplied modem and filter kit from Verizon puts you half-way there.

Get yourself a broadband router: http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=34&scid=29&prid=561 is great for doing the job "on-the-cheap." (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004SB92/qid%3D1095698150/002-5180414-6132023)
Get yourself a 3 or 4.5m Cat5, staright-through cable (http://catalog.blackbox.com/BlackBox/templates/blackbox/itemgroup561guest.asp?param=1006&ig_id=561&title=CAT5+Solid%2DConductor+Cables&related=) (EYN737MS-0010 or EYN737MS-0015 is good).
Get yourself a decent 10/100Base-T NIC.
Something like this
http://catalog.blackbox.com/BlackBox/Templates/blackbox/mainscreen.asp
or this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00003006R/qid=1095698289
or this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004T1MJ/qid%3D1095698421/002-5180414-6132023
or this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006371V/qid%3D1095698508/002-5180414-6132023
should work just fine.

Throw out their software.
Install and configure NIC.
Hook up filters and modem.
Connect modem to router WAN port.
Configure router:
If you're DHCP-ing, set to "Get an IP address automatically."
If you're on a static IP, set the IP and gateway.
If you're PPoE-ing in, set the user name and password. (From what I've been told, Verizon will create an initial account u/n & pw over the phone, or when you place your original order for DSL, BTW.)

DNS is 4.2.2.1, 4.2.2.2 and 4.2.2.3.

Add switches and nodes to your heart's content.

SoCal SBC uses PPoE, and I used the above to get my dad hooked-up with a home network and a mix of node OS types. It wasn't a problem--except that SBC's service is sucky in his area. (A minimum of an outage a month, compared to 3 outages in 2 years with Verizon.)

Oh well...that's my 2 centavos on the subject.

[JohnT]

HERE (http://www2.verizon.net/help/flash.asp?title=Understanding%20your%20first%20bil l&path=http%3A//onlinehelp.verizon.net/consumer/bin/flash/FlashTutorials/FirstBill.swf)
is the hardest part of setting up DSL.

[Calipso]

I remember that JohnT, you once suggested that I use the adsl-setup, and adsl-run commands to set up my dsl connection (Sympatico for anyone that is interested) and it worked like a charm. It couldnt be easier. I only had to answer maybe 4 questions which included my username, password and the addresses of both the DNS servers and that was it. I havent had any problems ever since. My connection starts at boot and all.

Thanx again :)

[jamez1988]

I've never used Verizon DSL, but BellSouth Fast Access seems to work quite nicely with Linux. (Aside from the crazy modem settings you must deal with if you get a router, but thats another story)

[hlrguy]

There is something to be said about Mom and Pop's out there. To save time, I went and picked up my DSL modem. They asked what OS, I told them Linux. They smiled, took back the 5-8 windows CDs, gave me the box and said I had all I need. I plugged the modem in, and literally, before I came out from under my desk after pluggin it in, I heard a beep, and when I checked, I was online. (Bridged DSL, I am basically on a WAN)

hlrguy

[EnigmaOne]

Originally posted by JohnT
HERE (http://www2.verizon.net/help/flash.asp?title=Understanding%20your%20first%20bil l&path=http%3A//onlinehelp.verizon.net/consumer/bin/flash/FlashTutorials/FirstBill.swf)
is the hardest part of setting up DSL.

I've just been flashed by John!

[blackbelt_jones]

Well, yes, it could be easier. No one seems to hear me saying that CentOS and now Fedora both configured my DSL connection with no help from me AT ALL! NO USERNAME and NO PASSWORD!

(actually, I guess what I did wasn't that easy if you don't want to reinstall your OS. I'm sort of funny that way... a serial reinstaller-- and in this case, it was a brand new computer, so I would have been installing MY OS anyway.)

It seems unlikely that the software somehow decoded my username and password-- obviously, it must have bipassed them. Makes me wonder if I needed to set up my account in the first place. If I had to do it over again, I would just hook up the hardware and install Fedora, and see what happens.

So what I'm hearing now is that setting up Verizon DSL is not only possible AND easy, but there is more than one way to do it. AND YET-- I'll say it again-- Verizon's staff told me TWICE that it cannot be done. I'm not holding the individual staff members responsible for knowing all about how to configure DSL for Linux, but a huge company in the business of selling DSL ought to have some information handy-- maybe a website, maybe with a disclaimer (of course they don't want to take responsibility for someone else's software working) . Since their DSL service comes with MSN, it doesn't take Oliver Stone to see the hand of Microsoft in all of this. This is a huge corporation with millions of customers, and you know this situation comes up every day. Someone has made a conscious decision that Linux users should not be able to get DSL.

I think that since they enjoy a monopoly, Verizon and similar companies should be legally required to inform us of our options. Does anyone agree?

[Calipso]

hey black belt jones....
How are you liking CentOS??
Im thinking of giving it a try when I get my new pc and was just wondering what you thought of it.

I dunno if you would know this but do you know/think that Red Hat documention would apply to CentOS as well since it is just a clone of Red Hat??

(hmm, maybe I shouldve started a new thread since this isnt on topic:confused: )

[EnigmaOne]

Originally posted by blackbelt_jones
Verizon's staff told me TWICE that it cannot be done. I'm not holding the individual staff members responsible for knowing all about how to configure DSL for Linux, but a huge company in the business of selling DSL ought to have some information handy-- maybe a website, maybe with a disclaimer.

Congrats on your DSL success, BlackBelt; and I'm sorry for coming-off as raining on your parade.

Verizon's DSL support group will get a second chance at you when you report your first outage, as infrequent as those are. :D
They will insist that you hook a windoze-based computer directly to the modem--refusing to log an outage report if you don't. When that happens, just go straight for the supervisor, or ask to speak with somebody in facilities. (BTDT)

[mmills]

I thought setting up a PPPoE connection was rather simple myself and im a big linux n00b. I just went into the system configuration pannel, then network, then create new, adsl, username, password, nameserver and so on........and bingo I was done..
But then again I use SBC Yahoo. mabye its different. I do know that SUSE 8.0-9.0, Mandrake 9.1-10.0 and Redhat 9.0 all worked for me.


but then again, I read some comments JohnT made and I put 2 and 2 together........

[JohnT]

but then again, I read some comments JohnT made and I put 2 and 2 together........ Good...then tell me....I'm still coming up with 3. :D

[Rinias]

Hey, if I were you, I'd be thanking my lucky starts that that's all it took!

Cause I wasn't as lucky. When I got my DSL (actually it's ADSL), I got a free modem with it (damn good thing, too, cause I couldn't/can't afford a new one). I was in a transition period between Gentoo/Mandrake and I was mostly using XP...

The real problem is that my modem is connected via USB, and I can tell you that if you don't have the Speedtouch modem, you're close to out of luck.

I think it took me a week to get my modem to work in Gentoo, and that only because of a fine group of people at sourceforge who decided to make a driver for the modem. The project is amedyn (http://sourceforge.net/projects/zyxel630-11/) for the AME Dynamite chip.

I'm looking forward to being able to buy an ethernet modem to hook up to it, then it will be a simple adsl-setup, adsl-start, but right now it's a pain.

When I first got it running, I swear you could see the duct tape on the files in the computer- needed to be real handy at changing the config files, copying certain modules to other names, etc...

But it "worked" !!! Now, when I start Linux (Slack, please), I have to make sure Windows was powered off for a while, login, su, and test out the startup command. Then I spend the next 30 sec staring at the little green lights- if the one for the ADSL line stopps blinking, that means I have to wait about 10 more minutes before I can even attempt to get the line back up. If I'm lucky, we're connected!

Oh- and sometimes, if it doesn't go up the first time, it will take about half an hour. I have to connect it, watch to see what it does, and most of the time it returns an error: amoitcl -1 . Then I have to shut it down, disconnect the modem, and wait...

So, feel lucky that you're not a poor bastardo like me, and that you've got an ethernet connection! I would LOVE and ethernet connection to my modem!!!

[blackbelt_jones]

Originally posted by Calipso
hey black belt jones....
How are you liking CentOS??
Im thinking of giving it a try when I get my new pc and was just wondering what you thought of it.

I dunno if you would know this but do you know/think that Red Hat documention would apply to CentOS as well since it is just a clone of Red Hat??

(hmm, maybe I shouldve started a new thread since this isnt on topic:confused: )

Don't sweat it. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, and people who run Windows.

Sure, the documentation for Red Hat definitely applies to CentOS, at least a good 98 percent of the time.

CentOS is great for what it's made for-- as a server or workstation. For the brief time that I was running it, it seemed completely stable, and I fell in love with the operating system itself, with the look and feel of Red Hat 9. However, for a home user, it lacked some essential packages, it was a problem finding RPMs built for RHEL, and I haven't had a lot of success compiling stuff from the source code. So I tried Fedora Core 2, and I think that on this computer it's going to turn out to be a much better match for me. You can really feel a difference in speed with that 2.6 kernel.

If you're a home user, don't like Fedora, and you don't care about the support, you may want to try Good Old Dead Red Hat 9 I'm not an expert, but I think it's a classic. I believe that forty years from now, geeks will speak of Red Hat 9 the same way car enthusiasts speak of '57 Chevys. Last time I was in Barnes and Noble, I noticed that the shelves are still featured three or four books on Red Hat 9, and I think it's still available for download at linuxiso.org.

[andycrofts]

Hi
I think it'd be a good idea to let your service provider know in simple steps, how you actually got it going under Linux.
Then, they can help others.
Anyone who buys a Trust 770Z digital camera now can discover how to use it with Linux, 'cos between me and their suppord person, we figured it out!
(Damn easy - just looks like a memory stick, btw)

-Andy

[bwkaz]

Originally posted by Rinias
The real problem is that my modem is connected via USB, Yes, the USB ADSL modems are a piece of crap... sometimes, even in Windows. :p

Originally posted by andycrofts
I think it'd be a good idea to let your service provider know in simple steps, how you actually got it going under Linux.
Then, they can help others. While this is a good idea, I don't think a lot of support techs are able to influence that kind of decision. So telling the support techs how to do what you're doing won't always help. Sometimes it might, but then see below. ;)

The other issue is that if they know how to do it on Linux, they think that if they advertise Linux support, they'll get a whole bunch of calls from mindless drones (think the 80-90% of the people that use Windows) expecting them to fix every single problem, step by step, and they know that they don't have either the manpower or the time to do that. Not when you consider every single distro, every single minor tweak that distros make between versions, etc.

http://www.linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=kicking#linuxisp

Especially:

[T]he ISP's priority is to limit its support-staff costs, and the support manager is obliged to pessimistically assume "support" means "holding the user's hand, no matter how inept he is, and no matter how badly he's already mangled his system, until his problem goes away."

He probably hires low-paid support staff who rely heavily on canned answers for pre-planned scenarios with a carefully limited set of user software. When you call and pose a question that has "support" and "Linux" in it, he envisions a bottomless demand for expert assistance with endlessly varying, hopelessly diverse and obscure software to demanding customers who've customised their environments to hell and back. His answer is therefore an automatic, emphatic "No."

Which fundamentally means next to nothing.

[XiaoKJ]

I hadn't follow the thread to the full, but if you think you really need windows to configure Verizon, I can tell you an alternative.

To do it, you will need a Windows Preinstallation Environment like Bart PE which you can use mozilla firefox on. Then, with this invaluable "Windows" live-cd, you can configure your Verizon account, without even installing Windows. However, that requires a real Windows installation disk to make, and you can jolly well share it without violating the law. Moreover, it can be copied too, without violating the law too. (unless you used a pirated copy to make the first copy...)

Isn't it ironic?

[SixStringSam]

Hi, I'm using RH 9.0, am a linux noob and just installed linux yesterday. I must say, first off that RH is awesome compared to winblows :P Being a noob, I have had some learning to do. I've learned how to mount my other partition (which I had to do to get some files for linux). My internet isn't working out of the box. I'm using a speedstream usb/eth modem through usb, on adsl over ppp0a and the internet connection wiz just plain won't recognize it. I had a clever idea I haven't yet used, but reading this thread reinforces my idea to connect my ethernet. My big question with this is...would there be any harm at all in having the usb connected in conjunction with the ethernet? I used the usb through win2k and don't wanna break the modem since I just had it replaced. I already have my user info and also got the primary and secondary dns ips from my isp's support website (imagine that). Should I download this software you talked about just in case?

btw, i have a radeon card; i got the radeon linux (driver?) from ati's website, but my Xwindow86 still won't start. i'm guessing i ran the file from the wrong location, that it's not like windows where it will automatically find the right location to install. I have read that Xwindows has to be running to use mozilla and the internet, is that correct?

so much to learn....windows was a piece of cake lol.

one more question...if i can't get this stuff to work...what do i need to do to make my own drivers? I'm taking programming in school, but so far only vb, no c or anything else yet.

EDIT: btw, I did all that with the radeon W/O reading any instructions, if it don't work the first time, read the instructions lol

[JohnT]

Suggestion....copy your post and re-post it with a new title for the topic so it will get answered faster. The topics with zero replies get the fastest responses.

[SixStringSam]

Thanks Johnt, after looking at the title of this, it appears I've posted in the wrong thread also. It should be in hardware, but I saw this in the hot topics list and posted cause it was kinda relevant. I'll do that now and try to break it up a bit.

[blackbelt_jones]

WoW! It took two years, but a thread I started finally made it to the "HOT THREADS" colunn on the home page. Could I be any prouder?

[JohnT]

Nah!! we were bored. :D

[linux12414]

[T]he ISP's priority is to limit its support-staff costs, and the support manager is obliged to pessimistically assume "support" means "holding the user's hand, no matter how inept he is, and no matter how badly he's already mangled his system, until his problem goes away."

He probably hires low-paid support staff who rely heavily on canned answers for pre-planned scenarios with a carefully limited set of user software. When you call and pose a question that has "support" and "Linux" in it, he envisions a bottomless demand for expert assistance with endlessly varying, hopelessly diverse and obscure software to demanding customers who've customised their environments to hell and back. His answer is therefore an automatic, emphatic "No."

Which fundamentally means next to nothing.

This is very true under certain circumstance. The local cable company (which offers cable TV and cable modem internet service) only pays their staff $8/hr. How much "expertise" can you get for this? All they require for their support techs is, "some computer knowledge and knowledge of Netscape" (Netscape is the default browser on their installation disk--for dialup).

Next time they're advertising for help, I'll post the want ad, just in case some of you are overdue for a "comatose moment in disbelief" ;)