Tux doest hail once again, and I'm hoping to get a little more insight -
A few years back, I ran Linux exclusively on my system for a quite a while, and really rather liked it as an OS, but ended up dumping it for Win2K for various reasons:
1) I kinda needed windows as I had an IT job supporting Windows 2) Applications were a total pain in the *** to install 3) Evolution is the only app I can recall that didn't look like it was designed by somebody's 12 year old nephew 4) No commercial software (especially game) support 5) The newer versions ran like absolute crap on my 400mhz PC. (This was all around RH8, if I remember right).
I'm now thinking of going back, as I now have a crappy customer service job instead of a swank IT job, which makes having Windows a little less necessary, and my 400mhz PC is soon going to be upgraded to a 2ghz PC.
But, that said, Win2K has frankly been working just fine. So, although Tux is tempting me yet again, switching OS's is a huge pain in the butt, and I don't want to do it if Linux is still in that stage of being a cool OS with really horrid application support.
BTW, I heard RedHat is no longer free? Is Mandrake now the way to go instead if I were to still want to go that route?
Icarus
08-23-2004, 08:40 PM
Red Hat has moved to a pure business support model (not a bad thing, they are doing quite well) and they moved their free-for-home-use to Fedora Core (which is now on it's second release) which is just an evolution of Red Hat with more 'cutting edge' packages. Some like it, some hate it...
Any new distro will run like crap on a 400mhz...if you run full on services and a full blown KDE/Gnome desktop. Most people on systems like this trim KDE/Gnome down and only have the needed services running...or moved to a desktop like Fluxbox (Openbox has become popular recently, both forks off the Blackbox project)
I saw if you are happy with Win2k and don't like the headaches that comes with Linux, use it. If you are advernturous and ready for a challenge (there's always something that you will not like, no matter what distro you pick) go for Linux.
bburton
08-23-2004, 08:50 PM
Nope. Linux hasn't got any better over the years. In fact it's just got worse.
Nothing to see here, just keep on using Win2k, move along.
fatTrav
08-23-2004, 09:21 PM
It's gotten better in some regards. Debian's apt-get has been ported over to rpm systems. Most distros have some sort of good package management system that will do dependency solving/checking for you. apt-get is available for most (all?) rpm systems including Fedora Core (though yum is the preferred choice), mandrake has urpmi, slackware has swaret*, Gentoo has its emerge system.
OpenOffice isn't that sh*tty, it's not Word, but it's not terrible. There isn't a whole lot I can't do on my linux box that I can't do on my Windows box other than gaming. But I have an xbox for that and the last game I tried to install on linux (rtcw) worked perfect after some thinking.
Mozilla's Firefox is the best web browser available (u can get it for Windows too) and thunderbird ain't too bad either.
I think the improvements from Gnome 1.whatever RH 8 had to 2.6 are more than worth checking out. The same can be said for KDE. But don't even try to run these on that 400.
* not a "native" package but an add on.
EnigmaOne
08-23-2004, 10:13 PM
It wasn't that bad two years ago.
It's tough to make a definitive judgement about anything based upon a single experience. Dash over to Distrowatch.com and read up on a few of the distros that appeal most to you. Taste some and bypass others.
You're actually in the perfect position to pick and choose, with your up-coming hardware project. Nothing to lose by re-parting and installing a completely different distro. (All my machines are taken by at least 1 distro at the moment.)
I'm kind of partial to EvilEntity and MediaLinux this month. :D
bburton: Your lure's nice and shiny, but the bait is seriously rancid. :rolleyes:
CoffeeMan
08-23-2004, 11:17 PM
Linux has become the ultimate option as an OS.
Take Gentoo, for example, Gentoo's portage system works better than the system it was designed after. (BSD). Take apt-get, swaret, emerge, all of these are excellent package managers that beat the crap out of worthless rpm.
Take all of the distributions available, there are the feature-rich bloated distros, (...Fedora/Mandrake/SuSE....) there are the smaller, faster distros, there are numerous package managers, and not to mention better compatibility with hardware in general since the days of RH8. RedHat has got to be one of the most pathetic excuses for a distribution there is available. But if it works for you, that's great. If you have a 400mhz CPU, you don't want RedHat/SuSE, or pretty much any distro based of RPM.
For an older PC, use Slackware, Debian, or Gentoo, for best performance. Yes, I know, compiling from source takes a long time, cry me a river. But after that, you have the best performance possible.
Linux in general requires finesse. But, it definitley has style. And who in their right mind, would want to be under constant attack? Staying with windows is the cowards way out.
bburton
08-24-2004, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by EnigmaOne
bburton: Your lure's nice and shiny, but the bait is seriously rancid. :rolleyes:
I know I know. I'm just not sure what kind of an answer Shadoglare was expecting to get asking a question like that at an online BB named justlinux.com... That's like going to the HardOCP Forums and asking "I haven't been keeping up for the past few years, have computers got any faster?"
To me the question was rhetorical and therefore I thought deserved a little, just a little, sarcasm.
In all seriousness: YES linux has improved immensly over the past few years. There are too many improvements to list here... the best way to see is to install a new distro yourself!
EnigmaOne
08-24-2004, 12:18 AM
OK....LOL.
I'm on one of those "can't take a joke" days. My apologies. :D
perfectly_dark
08-25-2004, 06:11 PM
Since you're getting a new computer, and it will likely have a large hard drive, why not make two (or more) partitions and install W2K and Linux, that way, if you don't like a linux distro, you can take your time and install a new one while still keeping windows. Also good so you can still play commercial games while using Linux for other stuff.
korn4266
08-25-2004, 11:35 PM
If you are going to try fedora i would go with fedora core 1 or maybe fedora core 2 because right now i'm running core 3 test 1. I don't have sound at all even though everything is configured correctly. I would try something besides fedora in my opinion. I'm soon hoping to get debian. I have others but I heard debian was really good.
blackbelt_jones
08-27-2004, 08:02 AM
If you like Red Hat and don't go for the somewhat unstable Fedora, there's a free distro called Centos based on the source code of the Enterprise version of Red Hat. I'll be trying that soon, when I get my next computer. Right now I'm running RedHat 9, which is no longer maintained, but runs very stable, and last time I looked was still available for download at linuxiso.org
You can also buy unsupported disks of Enterprise Red Hat very cheap on EBay, but based on what I know, (not much) I would go with centos, which is updated.
Is Linux a better operating system than it was a couple of years ago? All I know is, thanks to Linux, I'm a better operator than I was a couple of years ago.
XiaoKJ
08-27-2004, 08:34 AM
Linux. Has. Improved. Much.
Its already gotten pretty much off the CLI and into X. many features are now available, and you don't get bugs that are documented features like in win.
For the pass year, as I would see it, development had been overwhelming, and even youngsters struggle to keep up with the trends.
BTW, maybe my exams are hindering me from keeping up, but the development is no doubt significant. (The only thing not improving is the clock speed of morons, and the help file library here. :D)
mrBen
08-27-2004, 08:47 AM
A couple of pointers other than what is mentioned above:
1. Commercial game support has come on greatly. Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 both have Linux versions on their disk. Wolf3d has a Linux client, as does enemy-territory. So things are looking up, definitely.
2. 'New' distro are likely to still run slowly on an older machine, but this is usually because they choose to use KDE or GNOME, which is what will slow your old machine down. Choosing a lighter weight window manager will likely resolve this issue.
chatins
08-29-2004, 05:27 AM
Some changes to Linux
* Grub's default name for a Win2K boot has changed from DOS to Other.
* When I load nvidia drivers the OS says they taint the kernel.
Compare and contrast the above for 20 bonus points.
blackbelt_jones
08-30-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by XiaoKJ
Linux. Has. Improved. Much.
Its already gotten pretty much off the CLI and into X.
Yeah, but the command line ROCKS!
Not to make it an argument; it's just that, lazy bastard that I am, it took me two years to put forward the little bit of effort necessary to discover the power and simplicity of the Linux command line... and now, I plug the CLI every chance I get, with all the zeal of the recent convert. Mind you, I will never be an old-school GUI-hating machogeek, the guy who has 400 gigs of harddrive space and 2 gigs of RAM, but prefers to "save space" and "conserve resources" by not installing X at all.
I suspect that when you say that Linux has gotten "pretty much off the CLI and into X.", you refer to the user's dependence on the command line, and you don't mean to imply that the CLI is going to be obsolete any time soon. I think that we can agree that giving users the choice is a good thing. If not for point-and-click, I don't think that I'd be able to use a computer at all right now.
I love the way that the multiple virtual desktops in Linux make it easy to switch from a GUI to a command-line approach to whatever you happen to be doing-- and back again. To me, this is what Linux is all about: versatility and the power to choose. And I love the fact that Linux GUIs seem to be getting more sophisticated, more intuitive, and, best of all, prettier!
fatTrav
08-30-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by blackbelt_jones
[B]Mind you, I will never be an old-school GUI-hating machogeek, the guy who has 400 gigs of harddrive space and 2 gigs of RAM, but prefers to "save space" and "conserve resources" by not installing X at all. /B]
I prolly wouldn't use X at all if I didn't like viewing webpages with images,colors and all that other 'eye candy' stuff they have now-a-days. :p
drb1
09-13-2004, 08:44 AM
Linux is in fact getting worse.
After all this time it is still not possible to SIMPLY find an article, that tells a new user.
"How to install a downloaded Application RPM"
(Particularly in Mdk(9.2/10) This rpm should not be on the distro disk but its dependencies should)
Step by step using the GUI with the absolute minimum Command line usage, if any.
Detailing, how afterwards to find the installed Application, and how to make the nessecary links to it.
Untill such articles are simply findable, Linux is a looser to Windows.
I would have expected to find such and Article in these pages, but no.
They are sick of beating their head's against a brick wall, and being told, learn the command line. RTFM.
If the command line is the only way, why are there GUI tools with unclear and incomplete instructions.
Perhaps this is just to annoy people, and improve Microsoft sales, which it surley does.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 09:09 AM
Linux is in fact getting worse.
Sounds like a ex-windows user to me who does not know how to find things on the web or on this site. I'm getting my spoon ready and fixing to feed him:
etc, etc, etc. All found with a simple "linux help" in Google. Was that so hard? Unless you would rather wait on hold for tech support?
Sorry, my dander is slowly settling but I am impatient this Monday morning with trolls and amateurs who post something like the above. At least I had some bait this morning for breakfast. :)
drb1
09-13-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by hard candy
Sounds like a ex-windows user to me who does not know how to find things on the web or on this site. I'm getting my spoon ready and fixing to feed him:
etc, etc, etc. All found with a simple "linux help" in Google. Was that so hard? Unless you would rather wait on hold for tech support?
Sorry, my dander is slowly settling but I am impatient this Monday morning with trolls and amateurs who post something like the above. At least I had some bait this morning for breakfast. :)
Your Femenist trap, time wasting "how to link" like your attitude probably sells a lot of windows systems.
Put "how to install an RPM" in google and look at all the crap that comes up, put it in this site and get fresh air.
look at all the out dated documents at the ldp. Half of wich are really only touting for money.
Windows is the enemy, Lack of SIMPLE EASY to find documentation, will lose you the battle, and the war.
I wouldnt like to see that. But I can see it coming.
The Documentation issue, and the Software install issues, need much inprovment before the Enemy releases "longhorn" along with all the traditional disinformation.
I shall review you links, and we may talk again.
mrBen
09-13-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by drb1
Linux is in fact getting worse.
After all this time it is still not possible to SIMPLY find an article, that tells a new user.
"How to install a downloaded Application RPM"
(Particularly in Mdk(9.2/10) This rpm should not be on the distro disk but its dependencies should)
There is no way that they can get dependencies for all apps on your distro disks. Plus, OSS develops at such a rapid speed that this is unlikely.
The increase of quality in tools like up2date/yum/apt-get/rpmdrake(?) should make questions like this a thing of the past very soon.
Step by step using the GUI with the absolute minimum Command line usage, if any.
That comes in the manuals if you purchase a distribution, usually.
The time and space required to write and host a set of guides online is usually prohibitive, and very few people are interested in writing such guides.
Detailing, how afterwards to find the installed Application, and how to make the nessecary links to it.
This should be done automatically by the distribution package. Every major distribution now has a menu system, and will add new software to that menu when it is installed.
Untill such articles are simply findable, Linux is a looser to Windows.
I would have expected to find such and Article in these pages, but no.
Sorry to disappoint. But if you do write such an article, please do post the link, and it will be added to the Help File Library.
They are sick of beating their head's against a brick wall, and being told, learn the command line. RTFM.
The command line is an important part of the *nix philosophy. Everyone should learn it, because some things are done better on the CLI than in the GUI - using the right tool for the right job is important.
I have very rarely seen people being told the RTFM on this board. We do, however, often refer people to existing documentation that can be easily found either here or on Google. 90% of the time when people are told to RTFM it is because they haven't bothered to try not because they have tried, but failed to understand.
If the command line is the only way, why are there GUI tools with unclear and incomplete instructions.
In help forums we often use the CLI to help people because:
It is good for them to learn some of the basic CLI tools
We are not masters of all distributions, but the CLI works on all
You often get better feedback/error information from the CLI
Perhaps this is just to annoy people, and improve Microsoft sales, which it surely does.
I have very rarely seen a failure in Linux (in the home desktop world, at least) improve Microsoft sales. People generally try out Linux alongside an existing Windows installation, if it fails to impress them they just remove it. The only exception would be if they buy a computer with Linux pre-installed and then buy Windows, but how often does this happen?
Anyway - the question is not 'is Linux better than Windows yet,' neither is it 'is Linux' on-line documentation better or worse'. It is 'Has Linux improved in the last 2 years', and the answer has got to be 'Yes'.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 10:49 AM
All these are on Justlinux which I'm hoping you have looked at before making your previous statements. And at top of some of our forums are stickies which cover common topics (credit to Hayl, DMR, Icarus) . I'm hoping you looked at these also. And each distro has hundreds of help files on their sites, plus with each distro installation cd are included free, no cost documentation. And this is just one linux forum, there are thousands covering distros, particular topics, and general help. I'm hoping you looked at these as well.
Comparing the windows help system and lthe linux help system, I am of the opinion it is easier to find help for topics in linux than windows.
Exactly how big of a spoon do you need???? All this bait is giving me heartburn.
drb1
09-13-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by hard candy
Sounds like a ex-windows user to me who does not know how to find things on the web or on this site. I'm getting my spoon ready and fixing to feed him:
etc, etc, etc. All found with a simple "linux help" in Google. Was that so hard? Unless you would rather wait on hold for tech support?
Sorry, my dander is slowly settling but I am impatient this Monday morning with trolls and amateurs who post something like the above. At least I had some bait this morning for breakfast. :)
http://shilo.is-a-geek.com/slack/intro0.html
I must check, yes I did say Mdk (9.2/10) Looks tidy form new Slack Users.
There is more than 1 link to that on this site . That link is to the updated version Mostly for Red Hat mostly command line (the Writer insists that the command line is easier).
http://www.debianhelp.org/index.php
Been there before that’s the one with the hidden search button, very cluttered, will look at that again (Doubtful).
http://www.linux-laptop.net/
No clear search engine, http://www.windowsrefund.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=19&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
Is a good article But why buy an Oem installed unit, if you don’t want The O/S?
And no clearly labeled Hwtos, has some nice articles for the level on user though.
http://www.linuxhelp.net/
Search engine but “how to install an rpm” gets
http://www.linuxhelp.ca/newbies/newbies-print.php
Which is all command line
If you are running Debian GNU/Linux and you wish to install a .deb file, you can do so by running the following command in a terminal as root:
dpkg -i filename.deb or apt-get install package (if you have APT already installed/configured).
And
http://www.linuxhelp.ca/newbies/
1. How do I install a program?
There are many ways to install applications in Linux. If the file you wish to install is in .rpm format and you are running an RPM based distribution such as Red Hat, Mandrake or SuSE, run the following command as root in a shell prompt/terminal:
rpm -Uvh filename.rpm
If you are running Debian GNU/Linux and you wish to install a .deb file, you can do so by running the following command in a terminal as root:
dpkg -i filename.deb or apt-get install package (if you have APT already installed/configured).
If the file you with to install is in a .tar.gz, .tgz or .bz2 format, you will first have to decompress (unzip) the file. Once the file has been unziped, it should create a directory based on the filename. Simply change into that directory and open up the README or INSTALL file in a text editor and follow the installation instructions.
=============
Now I am quiet sure I said “Through the GUI in MDK 9.2/10 With minimal or no command line usage”.
Next please.
O.T
As you are aware I come from the bottom of the World.
"I NEVER give the wrong answer, it is ALWAYS the right answer, you just have the WRONG problem."
How to really piss some one off. Say things like the above.
Just because you are indoctronated at school that the US way is the only way, dosent make it Globally so.
drb1
09-13-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by hard candy
All these are on Justlinux which I'm hoping you have looked at before making your previous statements. And at top of some of our forums are stickies which cover common topics (credit to Hayl, DMR, Icarus) . I'm hoping you looked at these also. And each distro has hundreds of help files on their sites, plus with each distro installation cd are included free, no cost documentation. And this is just one linux forum, there are thousands covering distros, particular topics, and general help. I'm hoping you looked at these as well.
Comparing the windows help system and lthe linux help system, I am of the opinion it is easier to find help for topics in linux than windows.
Exactly how big of a spoon do you need???? All this bait is giving me heartburn.
Viewed all those months ago,
I repeat,
for MDK 9.2/10 Through the GUI with minimal or no command line usage,
You jumped dopwn my throat while you were having breakfast. you said it exists. where is it.
Dont run round defending like a Democrat.
Just show the document, that gives a:
Clear, consise, accurate, step by step, instruction, on how to install say "openmosixview-1.5-mdk91.i586.rpm" or some other suitable software package, not on the distro disk, (all the dependencies for mosix are there). THROUGH THE GUI with limited or NO COMMAND LINE usage.
After speaking to me like that, if you cant find it ,you may have to write it.
Be proffesional, not personal.
D.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 11:58 AM
Through the GUI in MDK 9.2/10 With minimal or no command line usage”.
You know they have Drake Control Center on your desktop which has a point and click software installation section. Are you sure you have your computer turned the right way up since you are on the other side of the world? :confused:
Besides all the major distros having graphical package installation managers included in their menus, what is so darn hard about the command line. Apparently you are able to type.
Is this post for real or did I swallow some more bait, dang, I feel like a trout on the first day of trout season.
Why the heck are you using linux? How did you ever get it installed? Was it automatic?
"I NEVER give the wrong answer, it is ALWAYS the right answer, you just have the WRONG problem."
How to really piss some one off. Say things like the above.
I'm a charter member of the National Sarcastic Society- our motto is "like we really need your support". I may be the only member, since our meetings are so well attended.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 12:11 PM
And this is from Mandrakes Starter Guide, included on the installation cd and on the web site. I do not see how it can be made any easier.
Originally posted by hard candy
You know they have Drake Control Center on your desktop which has a point and click software installation section. Are you sure you have your computer turned the right way up since you are on the other side of the world? :confused:
Besides all the major distros having graphical package installation managers included in their menus, what is so darn hard about the command line. Apparently you are able to type.
Is this post for real or did I swallow some more bait, dang, I feel like a trout on the first day of trout season.
Why the heck are you using linux? How did you ever get it installed? Was it automatic?
I'm a charter member of the National Sarcastic Society- our motto is "like we really need your support". I may be the only member, since our meetings are so well attended.
I dont see any reference to the Document. That is supposed to exist.
The lack of such, is the point.
Are you admitting you are/were wrong by giving the problem back to me.
Like you really need my support.
You are talking to some body who gives FREE copies of linux download distros with every computer sold. With or with out an installed O/s of any Brand.
New and used. (frequently Knoppix or MDK move) Units sold without an installed O/s, generally get MDK 10.
Havent spoken to any US born Americans For many years. last in your country in 82, are you all thinking and behaving like this now?
drb1
09-13-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
And this is from Mandrakes Starter Guide, included on the installation cd and on the web site. I do not see how it can be made any easier.
Thats all for the mandrake packages on the mandrake C/D S.
Doesent deal with non mandrake packages, makes people very confused, allthough it can/does help when installing dependencies.
Its the equivelent of add remove programs, and has simular problems.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 12:42 PM
This page contains links to electronic versions of documentation that is included in the retail packages.
I think the key word in the statement is "retail" which is referring to the Mandrake packages sold in stores and on the web. But the documentation is on the web site
here (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/fdoc.php3)
Are you admitting you are/were wrong by giving the problem back to me.
No, you posted "After all this time it is still not possible to SIMPLY find an article, that tells a new user.
"How to install a downloaded Application RPM"
(Particularly in Mdk(9.2/10) This rpm should not be on the distro disk but its dependencies should)
Step by step using the GUI with the absolute minimum Command line usage, if any.
".
The documentation is found on Mandrakes website from the link on the left called "Documentation" and is present on the retail cd. So it is "simple" .
Then you posted "If the command line is the only way, why are there GUI tools with unclear and incomplete instructions. ". This is also wrong, name one package manager that has unclear and incomplete instructions.
I cannot believe that someone who works so much with linux would make such statements. I will concede that Windows documentation and Linux documentation are unequal- Linux documentation is much better than Windows help documentation.
Havent spoken to any US born Americans For many years. last in your country in 82, are you all thinking and behaving like this now?
No, some are still using Windows, OSX, BSD, etc.
drb1
09-13-2004, 12:53 PM
Our poor GUI user, is sitting looking at a downloaded Rpm in his home directory, that the MDK RPM installer does not want to know about.
He does not have a clue as to what to do now, he needs a Step by Step story.
When these people cant find the story, EASILY, they stop.
Billy boy loves that.
Dont fight Microsoft, To expensive. Its a major corporate organ, just take its next generation of customers.
Dont run Microsoft down, or its Users down.
Write instructions that children can use (Like 5 year olds) and steal the next entire generation of customers.
Now where is my story that you said existed.
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 12:59 PM
Like you really need my support.
sar·casm Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm.
IE He's kidding around...
Havent spoken to any US born Americans For many years. last in your country in 82, are you all thinking and behaving like this now?
Do people ever think and believe the same in any country? Not sure what this means...
If you're primary weaponry against Linux is lack of GUI tools and "simple" docs... you can always take the Open Source philosophy of "if you don't like it fix it... the codes available... etc etc" or something to that effect...
I have little or no technical background and I've just done what most Linux users have done... read a whole lot... and break my system a whole lot... and eventually learn how to do and not do things...
hard candy
09-13-2004, 01:11 PM
Our poor GUI user, is sitting looking at a downloaded Rpm in his home directory, that the MDK RPM installer does not want to know about.
If it is a rpm with a mdk somewhre in the name, he just has to click on it. Have you actually read this chapter?
http://doc.mandrakelinux.com/MandrakeLinux/92/en/Starter.html/software-management-install.html
And if they are as dumb as you are proposing I do not think they will ever need anything that is not included in the Mandrake rpm list.
Otherwise they come here or another forum and ask a question and get an answer. It's a lot cheaper than calling Microsoft or a lot less frustrating than calling the software developers support phone line.
drb1
09-13-2004, 01:12 PM
I cannot believe that someone who works so much with linux would make such statements. I will concede that Windows documentation and Linux documentation are unequal- Linux documentation is much better than Windows help documentation.
No, some are still using Windows, OSX, BSD, etc. [/B][/QUOTE]
==========
There are allways people further from the center on eithere side of a debate.
Linux documentation has inproved markedly in recent years. But it is still bogged in the command line. (the command line is nessecary it must stay but).
so many sests of release notes, and support documenttation dive straight into complex command manipulations, that the Transitionary user thinks are written on mars.
So many advisers on Supposed help sites, will not use the GUI, and will not fully explain from the begining. Correctly you say linux documentation is not incorrect or incomplete IF AND ONLY IF you know exactly what you are doing.
The Quality of the GUI has improved to such an extent that the lack of simple documentation is now a major issue. Take an unbiased look at the MDK Documents Including the "retail release" downloads, from the point of view of a transitional user.
Very brief, too many unanswered question. so were is my story for the poor GUI user. Soon he will have a headache from staring.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 01:22 PM
Take an unbiased look at the MDK Documents Including the "retail release" downloads, from the point of view of a transitional user.
I have, it is very simple with step by step instructions with pictures.
I think you had better focus on gaming for your argument of "why Linux will never succeed even though I use it and give it away to everyone I know".
How many people give away Windows XP? Or have WinXp install fests. Or mail each other WinXp cds? or can use bittorrent to download the WinXP iso? Or can install WInXP on PPC, Sun, AMD64?
drb1
09-13-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
If it is a rpm with a mdk somewhre in the name, he just has to click on it. Have you actually read this chapter?
http://doc.mandrakelinux.com/MandrakeLinux/92/en/Starter.html/software-management-install.html
And if they are as dumb as you are proposing I do not think they will ever need anything that is not included in the Mandrake rpm list.
Otherwise they come here or another forum and ask a question and get an answer. It's a lot cheaper than calling Microsoft or a lot less frustrating than calling the software developers support phone line.
=======
I repeat the MDK installer just spat it back at him, and yes it is an MDK RPM, and yes as you know, that happens.
The forums give the half answers, and treat them like idots, Because they do not yet speak, or may never speak, the forum tech, clicky gone in 5 day net lingo.
These people leave, and go back to Microsoft for the want of a few simple documents.
That is counter productive.
This site is one of the better (which is why I am bothering to have this debate here).
A site like this should have documents like that in a simple to get at place, your FAQ/RRA list is close But.
From the point of view of the transitional, there are some big gaps we are debating one of them.
Where is my story, that you said existed?
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 01:34 PM
If a user has too many problems with Linux maybe they should stick with Microsoft or OSX... I personally prefer Linux... and I would say that I started out as one of these "dumb" users you're claiming will run back to MS. I had absoultely no clue when I first started using Linux with RH 8... Now a few years later I'm using Slackware. I tried Slackware early on and went running back to Red Hat 9... I'm just not sure that the type of users you're talking about actually exist... I mean, I think you're underestimating the capacity and capability of the user base. Sure, My grandma would have trouble installing an rpm on Mandrake but she also has no idea how to use a mouse... My mother is perfectly happy using Windows but if she used Mandrake, odds are she wouldn't be installing any new software or would ask for my help if she did... The whole point of these "user-friendly distros" is to provide all the software a user needs up front and out-of-the-box...
I'm just not sure what you're argument here is...
drb1
09-13-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
I have, it is very simple with step by step instructions with pictures.
I think you had better focus on gaming for your argument of "why Linux will never succeed even though I use it and give it away to everyone I know".
How many people give away Windows XP? Or have WinXp install fests. Or mail each other WinXp cds? or can use bittorrent to download the WinXP iso? Or can install WInXP on PPC, Sun, AMD64?
===========
Flawed,
by personal perception.
I want it to succeed, I see problems as outlined,
No one gives Microsoft, except as a hidden cost, loss leader.
Very few Businesses really give anything. Linux on 3 C/DS $2-00, we can probably absorb that one.
LOOK at the documentation honestly, look at the scenario you keep on side stepping.
The needed story is not available, this is probably the most important make or brake issue for the transitional user, and you keep on denying a real problem.
When the MDK installer spits it back and the check sum is correct, or he got if from C/D, and it was checked for him, or its on C/D even, where is his story, step by step, you said it was there. Show me.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 01:41 PM
And where would that person go if a program failed to install in Windows?
I'm still not seeing what you are saying:
if a person knows nothing about computers and wants to install Photoshop, they buy the cd and put it in and everything is automatic. If it fails to install or does not run right they call the Photoshop helpline or go to the Photoshop web page, or takes it to Compusa and has them install it.
If a person downloads the Gimp.mdk.rpm, and clicks on it and it does not install, they call Mandrake support, go to the Mandrake or Gimp webpage, or takes it to Compusa and has them install it.
drb1
09-13-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
And where would that person go if a program failed to install in Windows?
I'm still not seeing what you are saying:
if a person knows nothing about computers and wants to install Photoshop, they buy the cd and put it in and everything is automatic. If it fails to install or does not run right they call the Photoshop helpline or go to the Photoshop web page, or takes it to Compusa and has them install it.
If a person downloads the Gimp.mdk.rpm, and clicks on it and it does not install, they call Mandrake support, go to the Mandrake or Gimp webpage, or takes it to Compusa and has them install it.
Now you are saying what Microsoft says if, you dont Know how to install/resolve pay us.
What happened to free linux and self help, what happen to helping people because microsoft is junk and a ripp off.
One of the most important FAQ/RRA issues for the transitional user, and you just said go pay a tech, and your a moderator on a self help site???
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by drb1
Now you are saying what Microsoft says if, you dont Know how to install/resolve pay us.
What happened to free linux and self help, what happen to helping people because microsoft is junk and a ripp off.
One of the most important FAQ/RRA issues for the transitional user, and you just said go pay a tech, and your a moderator on a self help site???
Where did he say that? I don't see "pay" anywhere in there. If you're inferring that having someone at compusa (literally) or someone more knowledgable (which is what I inferred from his example) is the same as paying for MS support then I'd say you're logic is pretty flawed.
drb1
09-13-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by lupin_the_3rd
Where did he say that? I don't see "pay" anywhere in there. If you're inferring that having someone at compusa (literally) or someone more knowledgable (which is what I inferred from his example) is the same as paying for MS support then I'd say you're logic is pretty flawed.
Compusa is not a retail outlet, they provide for free?
If this is so, then yes I am wrong, if not ?
Sgood1971
09-13-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
Otherwise they come here or another forum and ask a question and get an answer. It's a lot cheaper than calling Microsoft or a lot less frustrating than calling the software developers support phone line.
Amen..
I am a newbie (At Linux), I am accustomed to doing everything via GUI. AND, I am usually lost in Linux.
I get stuck, I come here and ask a question. There are some really talented minds here that provide top level support for free. If I happen to figure out how to fix it myself, I repost to the same thread in case someone else is searching for the same issue. I have never had anyone take the RTFM approach with me because I RTFM if I am stuck and then, if I am still stuck, I ask. TFM is very informative if you spend a little time with it. I have been using Linux since Mandrake 9.2 and was frankly quite amazed at the level of GUI tools available to me after reading several negative reviews of 1 or the other distros. True one of my biggest problems initially (and still sometimes with dependencies.) was installing/running software and this could be implemented in a different way. But just because someone doesn't spend hours of their own time to create documentation that is brought down to my "newbie" level, does not mean the documentation is not good documentation. It pushes me to learn more and strive to bring myself up to their level, so not only do I get to make my computer do something it wasn't doing before, but I also learn something new. (Usually what you learn doing one thing can be applied to many other things as well.) I have no beef with Linux, I have learned more about computers in a year with nix than I did with years on Windows. The documenation is usually only frusterating because there is too much, not because there is not enough. My 2 cents if anyone cares.
drb1
09-13-2004, 02:09 PM
Candy,
You jumped right down my throat and youve been backing up ever since where is the document, step by step. instruction that any non computer literate person can understand.
Put up or shut up!
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by drb1
Compusa is not a retail outlet, they provide for free?
If this is so, then yes I am wrong, if not ?
No charge if you actually bought the software from them and couldn't get it to install (the photoshop example)
to install the gimp? Not sure if compusa would charge or not... If you have purchased the official Mandrake cds then they will provide support for free I would think... or you could get support from the Mandrake community... or you could come here.
where is the document, step by step. instruction that any non computer literate person can understand.
What document are you looking for? The holy grail of documentation that explains to every single person on the planet how to install a Mandrake Linux rpm? I've read over this post a couple of time now and you keep mentioning this elusive document but I can't exactly figure out what the document is supposed to say or do exactly...
hard candy
09-13-2004, 02:16 PM
What happened to free linux and self help, what happen to helping people because microsoft is junk and a ripp off.
You are falling into the trap of so many people, "free" in regards to linux does NOT mean without cost. FREE in linux means the source code is FREE to be used as long as the license is complied with. Self-help means helping myself and people who ask me for help if I want to help them. It also applies to everyone equally. It does NOT mean we are obligated to help everyone who uses Linux just because they use Linux.
When I help someone it is because I WANT to help, not because I happen to use Linux.
Microsoft is not junk, WinXP runs very well on my computer and DOOM 3 runs very well on WinXP. I just do not want to use WinXp ALL the time because it is the only OS available.
Your original argument was that Linux was going to fail because it was not as easy as windows. I still believe that is wrong when I have used Mandrake and Suse as well as WinXP and found all three very similiar in using point and click to configure and install software.
and you just said go pay a tech, and your a moderator on a self help site???
I think 'self help" are the key words in your statement. And I did not say "go pay a tech" - I was implying that is an option for some people., what is wrong with that.?Are you a fanatic that believes Linux has to always be free of cost? :)
"Moderator" is not equal to "paid employee" or "obligated to solve everyones' problems". "Moderator" is equal to "volunteer' and "helps when he can".
hard candy
09-13-2004, 02:39 PM
[QUOTE]Candy,
You jumped right down my throat and youve been backing up ever since where is the document, step by step. instruction that any non computer literate person can understand.
Now, I want you to open the Help menu on your Mandrake desktop and start reading it so you will know what is in there.
drb1
09-13-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by lupin_the_3rd
No charge if you actually bought the software from them and couldn't get it to install (the photoshop example)
to install the gimp? Not sure if compusa would charge or not... If you have purchased the official Mandrake cds then they will provide support for free I would think... or you could get support from the Mandrake community... or you could come here.
What document are you looking for? The holy grail of documentation that explains to every single person on the planet how to install a Mandrake Linux rpm? I've read over this post a couple of time now and you keep mentioning this elusive document but I can't exactly figure out what the document is supposed to say or do exactly...
Were in different counties this raises issues of national operation methoed.
You take it to a shop here you pay.
There are some documents that are very good, that say, step by step. Do a this will happen. Do b this will happen . type ectect press enter this will happen. they then progress slowly I will attach an example.f not Ect ECT
I have found some for red hat, I have not found one for MDK 9.2/10 which was the original point, candy jumped in abused and said its there.
Where?
He has yet to produce it, he's hiding behind mandrake and shifting the issue.
The Mdk documentation is not good enough. If it was there woul be no debate.
==========
Written tested and Edited by Danger-mouse, ing1, drb1, Thank you Jen.
Intellectual property and consideration rights the above.
There is an ongoing argument as to whether it is advisable to remove Internet Explorer from Windows or not. The E.U. Has demanded, and is Still insisting that Microsoft do so. This article just gives one method of doing so. The writer has tested the instruction on a clean install of Windows XP (Pre Sp2) using Knoppix 3.3.4. It works. Use at your own risk.
This article gives, simple instruction, for those not experienced with Knoppix, Linux, or such manipulations of an O/S. Experienced Computer users will skim through and pick the points they need and proceed.
Star your computer by pressing the power button, at the Bios screen enter your Bios (normally by pressing delete at the correct time). Choose the display screen that contains your Boot Device order, check that your C/D ROM is set to Boot before your Hard Drive, (Some Bios may need the C/D in front of the Floppy, to Boot from it) alter as necessary.
(At the completion of this exercise you may wish/need to reset your Bios to its original configuration, take note of what you changed, and how)
Exit the Bios screen normally by pressing Esc, from the Main Menu select the “save and exit setup option”. There will normally be a question screen asking y or n (Yes or No)? Save this alteration. Ensure that yes is selected or your changes will not take effect on restart. Most computers will automatically restart at this point.
While the computer is going through its restart cycle open your C/D drive and insert the Knoppix C/D (Quickly before the computer completes post).
The Computer should now Boot the Knoppix C/D, and display a screen showing a logo and Boot options, press Enter for Auto Boot.
If there were no Boot issues you will end up with a Konquer browser screen displaying a logo, with several language options beneath it. Select the appropriate language (with your mouse Click) if you have never used Knoppix before you should have a read, and a look around at this point.
After Minimising or closing the Kde window you will see the knoppix desk top (not that different is it?)On the left in a column should be icons, there should be one labelled Hard Disk Partition [hda1] single Click this Icon.
A browser window should open labelled “file:/mnt/hda1”. If this Window does not contain the files/folders in your Windows partition (C Drive) All is not well (How do I mount my Windows partition in Kopi, if Kopi doesn’t do it automatically? is another article).
WARNING, you will see some files and possibly folders you do not normally see in the windows environment. Do Not Interfere with the contents of these, unless you enjoy making problems for your self, looking to learn is quite safe.
Click on the Knoppix Penguin (It should be the second Icon from the left in the Taskbar at the bottom of the screen. Right Clicking in the White Space on the Taskbar, will bring a Popup Menu, you can resize this Taskbar in the menu if you wish) A resizable black window should appear (ohh the dreaded Linux shell) labelled “Root” There should be text in the top left of the screen “root@ttypo[knoppix]#” and a cursor (probably red, because this is a powerful place) Type:
remountrw /dev/hda1 (the space between the w and the / is important, it should look like this)
“root@ttypo[knoppix]# remountrw /dev/hda1” (press enter)
A dialogue box should appear asking if you wish to make partition dev/hda1 writeable, Click the yes icon.
Then type Exit at the cursor, and press enter.
Close the shell just like a window’s window.
Right click in the KDE window (mnt/hda1) and create a new folder. Name it “Browsers” Click program files, right Click Internet Explorer, and rename it by adding –orig creating “Internet Explorer-orig” click on the white space to set the File Name. Right Click on the renamed Folder and chose cut, click the up arrow to get back to program files.
Right Click on “Browsers” and select paste. Use the back arrow to get back to Program files. Right Click on “Mozilla Fire Fox” and select copy. Navigate back to Program files and paste “Fire Fox Copy” in to “Browsers”.
Rename “Fire Fox copy”, Internet Explorer (ensure that the characters and spaces are the same as the original. I E Folder). Click on the white space to set the file name, open the renamed Folder, Right Click on “Fire Fox.exe” select copy, navigate back to the previous Folder, Right Click, and select paste.
Rename “Fire Fox.exe” to “iexplore.exe” (again the characters must match the original) click on the white space, then cut and paste the new “iexplore.exe” back into the new “Internet Explorer”. Cut the new “Internet Explorer” (Fire Fox old) navigate to Program Files, and paste.
Cut and paste the original “Mozilla Fire Fox” into “Browsers”. Close KDE, and any other open items. Click on the KDE Gear icon (last Icon on the left in the task bar) select logout, then select “turn of computer”, after Knoppix has instructed you to remove the C/D, and you have removed it, press enter/return, and turn off the Computer. Restart, reset your Bios to its original configuration (if you had to change it) Restart, Start Windows.
There is now some house keeping to do the old Fire Fox short cuts should be cut from the desk top and placed in browsers with the originals. This browsers Folder can be zipped, archived, put on C/D or stored how ever you wish to. Do not completely delete it. This article deals with the issue of removing IE and Replacing it with Fire Fox. There will be, A “Service Pack Three” you may need to re install IE upgrade or patch your machine then remove it again. If you do not have it, you will have a problem. The old IE short cuts and program links will now operate Fire Fox.
=========
You can give that to a five year old, something the same is required for installing Rpm in MDK 9.2/10 and others.
Through the GUI and the command line. I only asked for 1 thing. to that standard Either would probably do.
This is a crucial make/brake area for so many, the documentation is simply not good enough.
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 02:53 PM
Well, I don't use Mandrake so I can't vouch for their documentation but I would assume they were just as adequate as any other distros (except maybe red hat or gentoo which both have pretty in depth docs)... this is a pretty good site and is fairly "low-tech" :
Originally posted by drb1
Star your computer by pressing the power button, at the Bios screen enter your Bios (normally by pressing delete at the correct time).
What do you do if you don't know how to change your BIOS and delete does not work?
Originally posted by drb1
if you have never used Knoppix before you should have a read, and a look around at this point.
What???!!! RTFM??? How dare he!
Originally posted by drb1
If this Window does not contain the files/folders in your Windows partition (C Drive) All is not well (How do I mount my Windows partition in Kopi, if Kopi doesn’t do it automatically? is another article).
No files, what now? More RTFM? Stop the insanity.
Originally posted by drb1
There is now some house keeping to do the old Fire Fox short cuts should be cut from the desk top and placed in browsers with the originals. This browsers Folder can be zipped, archived, put on C/D or stored how ever you wish to. Do not completely delete it. This article deals with the issue of removing IE and Replacing it with Fire Fox. There will be, A “Service Pack Three” you may need to re install IE upgrade or patch your machine then remove it again. If you do not have it, you will have a problem. The old IE short cuts and program links will now operate Fire Fox.
How do I put it back, I need to use Windows Upate?
Originally posted by drb1
you can give that to a five year old, something the same is required for installing Rpm in MDK 9.2/10 and others.
I know of no 5 year olds who could pull this off.
My point is, although these are well documented instructions, they can be analyzed to death and made to appear as inferior. If you don't like Mandrakes docs, learn to do it yourself, create one and submit it. Then you not only have learned something, you have contributed something as well. Then newbies will be installing software, you will be pleased and the world will be a better place in general.:D
hard candy
09-13-2004, 03:37 PM
drb1, I still do not understand what you are saying. After reading the Mandrake documentation, you do not believe it is simple enough? Are you saying "simply by clicking on the Install button. A new window will appear, to show you with a progress bar how much of your installation is already done. If you prefer leaving without doing anything, you just need to click on the Quit button."(here) (http://doc.mandrakelinux.com/MandrakeLinux/92/en/Starter.html/software-management-install.html) is too complex?
My point is that in order to use Linux without paying any money for it, a user should be required to learn some things. If a user does not want to learn anything, then they can pay money for support, help, guidance, a computer shop, etc. This gives everyone a choice, which is one more choice than they have with Microsoft.
drb1's contention that we are obligated to make Linux even easier that it already is for those people who want a no-cost "no thinking required" OS is wrong. If they want it that easy, let them pay for it with money. (Which they already do with Suse, Mandrake, Linspire, Xandros)
If a person wants to install Firefox on Slackware, they can do the reading- we are under no obligation to do it for them. We can help them, we can write a howto, but those are voluntary-not required.
drb1
09-13-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
You are falling into the trap of so many people, "free" in regards to linux does NOT mean without cost. FREE in linux means the source code is FREE to be used as long as the license is complied with. Self-help means helping myself and people who ask me for help if I want to help them. It also applies to everyone equally. It does NOT mean we are obligated to help everyone who uses Linux just because they use Linux.
When I help someone it is because I WANT to help, not because I happen to use Linux.
Microsoft is not junk, WinXP runs very well on my computer and DOOM 3 runs very well on WinXP. I just do not want to use WinXp ALL the time because it is the only OS available.
Your original argument was that Linux was going to fail because it was not as easy as windows. I still believe that is wrong when I have used Mandrake and Suse as well as WinXP and found all three very similiar in using point and click to configure and install software.
===========
The MDK documentation you describe deals only with installing MDK RPM from MDK.
It does not deal with any package made for MDK, as well as others supplied in an RPM to work on MDK. I
If point and click installation works on these packages and the dependecies are installed, frequently the menue links are not installed, and there is no instruction on how to deal with this.
If the menu links are not installed, the user is left thinking is it in, or not.
Then he has to learn to look for it, and on, and on this should be in the documentation.
It is not.
The type of documentation required does not seem to be available, you said it is, where is it.
I think 'self help" are the key words in your statement. And I did not say "go pay a tech" - I was implying that is an option for some people., what is wrong with that.?Are you a fanatic that believes Linux has to always be free of cost? :)
"Moderator" is not equal to "paid employee" or "obligated to solve everyones' problems". "Moderator" is equal to "volunteer' and "helps when he can".
You should have considered that before you insulted and gave out links that did not solve the problem, saying they would, maybe you should have read the original post proprerly.
Get back on topic, where is the document you said existed.
hard candy
09-13-2004, 04:21 PM
Drb1's original post:
"After all this time it is still not possible to SIMPLY find an article, that tells a new user.
How to install a downloaded Application RPM"
(Particularly in Mdk(9.2/10) This rpm should not be on the distro disk but its dependencies should)
Step by step using the GUI with the absolute minimum Command line usage, if any.
Detailing, how afterwards to find the installed Application, and how to make the nessecary links to it.
Untill such articles are simply findable, Linux is a looser to Windows."
The Mandtrake Start Document has all that information included. It is found on the Mandrake website. Also, the Mandrake forums have all those questions anwered and have a search button to find the answers. The example you gave, drb1, was for a single program. There are lots of programs with their own readme and installation docs, so I do not see how you can compare a Firefox installation document to a generalized Mandrake installation Howto.
Calipso
09-13-2004, 05:27 PM
you wanna install something by mostly using the GUI and very little of the command line. Here is a step by step process....unfortunatelly it involves the command line just a bit.....actually it just involves you copying and pasting. Here it goes, try to follow:
open terminal.....there should be a nice little icon in the bottom left corner of your screen which you can click on and it will start.
Now type su (ENTER)
type in your root password (ENTER)
type(or copy and paste, which ever is easier):
urpmi.removemedia -a (ENTER)
urpmi.addmedia plf ftp://mandrakeusers.org/pub/PLF/mandrake/10.0 with hdlist.cz (ENTER)
urpmi.addmedia --update updates ftp://ftp.sunsite.org.uk/package/mandrakelinux/official/updates/10.0/RPMS with ../base/hdlist.cz(ENTER)
urpmi.addmedia main ftp://ftp.sunsite.org.uk/package/mandrakelinux/official/10.0/i586/Mandrake/RPMS with ../base/hdlist.cz (ENTER)
urpmi.addmedia contrib ftp://ftp.sunsite.org.uk/package/mandrakelinux/official/10.0/contrib/i586 with ../../i586/Mandrake/base/hdlist2.cz(ENTER)
[optional]urpmi.update -a(ENTER)
[optional]type Y followed by ENTER to update all sources.
type exit(ENTER)
type exit(ENTER).
Now you can use the magic of the GUI.
Move your arrow to the very bottom left corner of your screen and left click(that means press the left button on your mouse) when the arrow is on the little yellow star on the blue background.
A menu should open.
Now move your mouse up to where it says SYSTEM.
Now move your mouse to the right to where it says CONFIGURATION.
Now move your mouse down to where it says PACKAGING.
Now move your mouse to the right and up to where it says INSTALL SOFTWARE.
Now once again click using your left mouse button.
A window will pop up asking for your root password.
Kindly type it in and click OK.
A program should open, and right in front of you, you should see a little white box that has a button labeled SEARCH beside it.
Click on the little box, type in the name of the program you would like to install, and then move your mouse over to the button SEARCH and click using your left mouse button.
Various choices(maybe only one) will show up.
Select the one you would like to install, and move your mouse over to the button that says INSTALL, and once again click your left mouse button(i know i know, this is a lot of clicking).
A window may pop up asking whether or not youre sure you want to install the program.....this choice is entirely up to you.;)
I hope I helped with your problem.....If not, than Im afraid you will have to wait for someone else to help you cause this is the best I can do.
I appologize if someone already gave these instructions.:p
OH!!!, I almost forgot...to avoid any confusion, dont actually type (ENTER)....I wrote this to let everyone know to actually press the ENTER key on their keyboards.:D
Calipso
09-13-2004, 05:53 PM
WHOOPS!! I almost forgot.
You only have to run the steps in the command line the initial time you do this. After you do this once, you no longer have to do that and can only follow the GUI(mouse) instructions. From then on, installing programs for you will simply involve using your mouse and clicking on buttons.:)
NOTE: Some brand spanking new software will not be found when you do the search but I guess you cant ask for too much, now can you:rolleyes:
Calipso
09-13-2004, 05:59 PM
Just one last thing.
If you maybe feel adventurous and feel like doing something yourself, feel free to visit Easy URPMI (http://urpmi.org/easyurpmi/index.php) and going through the very straight forward instructions, and select your own servers from which you may want to download software. I chose one of the British servers for no good reason....just thought Id change things up a bit:D
Oh and in relevence to the original question posted....I have only been using linux for less than a year, but I would imagine that just like with anything else in this world....With time, Linux has and will continue to improve. :)
drb1
09-13-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Sgood1971
What do you do if you don't know how to change your BIOS and delete does not work?
What???!!! RTFM??? How dare he!
No files, what now? More RTFM? Stop the insanity.
How do I put it back, I need to use Windows Upate?
I know of no 5 year olds who could pull this off.
My point is, although these are well documented instructions, they can be analyzed to death and made to appear as inferior. If you don't like Mandrakes docs, learn to do it yourself, create one and submit it. Then you not only have learned something, you have contributed something as well. Then newbies will be installing software, you will be pleased and the world will be a better place in general.:D
My god daughter has not yet started school, she tested it and had no problem,
Apart from h/p most units tell you how to enter bios on the post screen.
The article is a beta you are the first people outside the writer group to see it. You will not find it anywear on the net apart from here unless some one has all ready coppied it. Your "viable" comments will be acted upon.
Mandrake and others are selling a product. since last posting here I have re read and tested. The MDK 9.2 RPM manager does not install non MDKsoft RPM from its GUI. There is no instruction with/for this tool telling you how to deal with non MDKsoft RPM. You said that the documentation from a sold product was excellent, thats the first of several large holes.
The debate is over poor LINUX documentation, not a beta document used as an example answer
How do I put it back, I need to use Windows Upate?
The article say "to remove" and says you "may" need to replace, nowere does it say that it instructs H/T to replace.
Other wise the title would be "H/t remove and replace" wouldnt it?
Mdk is probably the freindliest disto as an install, as soon as you step outside MDKsoft it turns to custard.
The documents dont cut it how many hundreds must people wade through to glean there information, or come her and be insulted because they dare to speak the truth.
I returned because I thought you may be, at last telling me were the articles you say exist may be found, but instead I must reply to off topic critisism, Same tactics as Bush, and his little Americans, in Australia.
You people still cant understand why Arabs crash planes in to your buildings stand back and look at you post calipso from the point of view of another nation.
P.s. you to think I would line up for, cut and paste, stray ftp. If I gave you half a brain it would be lonley.
fatTrav
09-13-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by drb1
I returned because I thought you may be, at last telling me were the articles you say exist may be found, but instead I must reply to off topic critisism, Same tactics as Bush, and his little Americans, in Australia.
I've been off this thread for awhile, but am back now. Honestly, I fail to see how any reference to President George W. Bush fits into this thread. The thread is about linux's evolution the past few years and I'd bet President Bush has never even seen/used Linux. So I'll kindly ask that you refrain from bringing in politicts to this thread.
The debate is over poor LINUX documentation, not a beta document used as an example answer Yes, linux documentation is whorrible. What's your point? It sucks. Linux was written by programmers for programmers. It is understandable that to use Linux takes some knowledge of computers. That's why companies like O'Reilly and Sams Publishing can ask $50 for a latest book on <insert distro name here> setup/install/maintain guides.
also from an earlier post
Originally posted by drb1
Your Femenist trap... what the hell does that mean? I fail to see how someone providing search links is a "feminist trap."
Sgood1971
09-13-2004, 07:07 PM
I was not trying to criticise, only making a point. I did not resort to making personal attacks on you either, chill out a little.
Calipso provided instructions a 5 year old could follow.
Good point about the article title H/T Remove and replace Firefox, my bad.
As far as installing non mdk rpms, when I ran Mandrake 10 I just double clicked the thing, typed in my root password and waited to see if it was going to yell at me about dependencies, if it did, I downloaded those and tried again. You don't even need instructions with pictures to follow those steps.
drb1
09-13-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by fatTrav
I've been off this thread for awhile, but am back now. Honestly, I fail to see how any reference to President George W. Bush fits into this thread. The thread is about linux's evolution the past few years and I'd bet President Bush has never even seen/used Linux. So I'll kindly ask that you refrain from bringing in politicts to this thread.
Yes, linux documentation is whorrible. What's your point? It sucks. Linux was written by programmers for programmers. It is understandable that to use Linux takes some knowledge of computers. That's why companies like O'Reilly and Sams Publishing can ask $50 for a latest book on <insert distro name here> setup/install/maintain guides.
also from an earlier post
what the hell does that mean? I fail to see how someone providing search links is a "feminist trap."
Hardy Candy posted an ambiquos "how to" link that promoted bringing more women into linux, it was promoted as a helpful link, which it wasnt.
edited out derogatory remark
By programmers for proggrammers. Then suitable for the soho enviroment.
edited out derogatory remark
Now we also have a 4/5 on 1 and all of the attackers have not read all of the post that is a recipie for disaster. it will take longer to answer than it will to make multiple posts a Bush tactic.
Calipso
09-13-2004, 07:34 PM
you to think I would line up for, cut and paste, stray ftp
umm...notice how I posted a link to where you can find other sources, dont have to use the ones I posted.
And if thats still too scary....you can always sign up for MandrakeClub (http://www.mandrakeclub.com/) and get sources directly from Mandrake.
You can always compile from source but thats not what you want cause its not GUI. :rolleyes:
Chances are that things wont really change until they(developers) agree on "Linux Standards"....I think theres a recent post about how theyre working on that.
Until then, use distro specific packages or compile them yourself.
You people still cant understand why Arabs crash planes in to your buildings stand back and look at you post calipso from the point of view of another nation.
what??:confused: I personally am no fan of bush, far from it, but seriously, what??:confused:
My instructions were just a suggestion....you dont actually have to use it.
drb1
09-13-2004, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Sgood1971
I was not trying to criticise, only making a point. I did not resort to making personal attacks on you either, chill out a little.
Calipso provided instructions a 5 year old could follow.
Good point about the article title H/T Remove and replace Firefox, my bad.
As far as installing non mdk rpms, when I ran Mandrake 10 I just double clicked the thing, typed in my root password and waited to see if it was going to yell at me about dependencies, if it did, I downloaded those and tried again. You don't even need instructions with pictures to follow those steps.
I never asked for pictures, as I said before the documentation has to many holes, it dosent tell people how to deal with non MDKsoft rpm, or how to find what they installed, if it installed properly or how to check if it has installed properly, all major issues for someone who has never done this/that before.
You knew what a dependencie was, they dont. They look in a logical, non computer literate way.
They dont find, they end up here, or some were worse, get treated like idiots. Go back to windows, and bad mouth linux for the rest of their lives.
Very counter productive in the long term. People like calipso do so much long term damage in the name of fun.
In the time you have all spent attacking me for speaking the truth as the thread origanator said, you could probably have written a beautiful step by step How To for both the C/l and the GUI.
Thats the funny part.
Sgood1971
09-13-2004, 07:44 PM
I am done with the troll. This thread is the only thing he has posted and I see it going nowhere special.
Calipso
09-13-2004, 07:47 PM
People like calipso do so much long term damage in the name of fun.
Im sorry, I must be missing something.
How am I doing damage??
I provided instructions about setting up URPMI. Was that wrong?? Should I have not done that??
I agree that its not as easy to install software in linux as it is in windows, but urpmi is about as easy as it gets. So if helping out in setting up URPMI is wrong, then I truly apologize. Sure maybe it was a really really dumbed down version of instructions, but at least this way it shouldnt be tough for anyone to set up.
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by drb1
I never asked for pictures, as I said before the documentation has to many holes, it dosent tell people how to deal with non MDKsoft rpm, or how to find what they installed, if it installed properly or how to check if it has installed properly, all major issues for someone who has never done this/that before.
You knew what a dependencie was, they dont. They look in a logical, non computer literate way.
They dont find, they end up here, or some were worse, get treated like idiots. Go back to windows, and bad mouth linux for the rest of their lives.
Very counter productive in the long term. People like calipso do so much long term damage in the name of fun.
In the time you have all spent attacking me for speaking the truth as the thread origanator said, you could probably have written a beautiful step by step How To for both the C/l and the GUI.
Thats the funny part.
or, alternatively... you could have written the docs yourself and saved all of us from a circular argument with, apparently, no conclusion or advice satisfactory enough for you.
drb1
09-13-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by fatTrav
I don't know hard candy or pretent to know that person so I won't comment on that person being a feminist. But when people like me and hard candy post a link to a question, keep in mind that we often don't fully read the article before we post it. We sometimes go on google key words and summaries in hopes that we'll provide enough information to have that user solve their own problem. This is free help afterall. What do you expect, to be hand held and coddled?
But you commented about post refering to her/him and defend them.
[B]
I find your reference to other cultures in a negative aspect to be revolting. What, "superior" culture to you claim to be from?
Watch some good tahi dancers, they are exquisite, the comment is positive, and complimentary of their skill. (Your mind dropped you in that one).
I've not attacked you, nor do I have plans to attack you on this forum. But I do change my mind sometimes on decisions.
Excelent, the content of your post does seem a little o/t and ?? disjoint to my original post.
Calipso
09-13-2004, 07:51 PM
any chance of me getting this explained??
You people still cant understand why Arabs crash planes in to your buildings stand back and look at you post calipso from the point of view of another nation.
Still a little confused.
rbrimhall
09-13-2004, 07:55 PM
Sounds like more culture bashing to me... I still can't get over the Thai woman comment... geez... this thread has gone into something bordering ugly... I think I'll resign from feeding any more content...
fatTrav
09-13-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by drb1
Excelent, the content of your post does seem a little o/t and ?? disjoint to my original post.
Sorry to break this, but my posts are more on topic than yours have, with the exception of my last post and probably this one as they won't or don't have anything to contribute to the thread topic of linux's evolution.
Regarding any disjoint to your original point, I did admit that linux documentation sucks which is the point of your original post.
And just for the record, I have actually DONE something about linux documentation being crappy. I've given Gentoo a number of fixes, enhancements, clarifications on how to improve a few of their docs and how-tos.
Regarding Thai dancers ... I'm a redneck from Southern Illinois and we don't get culture like that.:p
drb1
09-13-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by hard candy
drb1, I still do not understand what you are saying. After reading the Mandrake documentation, you do not believe it is simple enough? Are you saying "simply by clicking on the Install button. A new window will appear, to show you with a progress bar how much of your installation is already done. If you prefer leaving without doing anything, you just need to click on the Quit button."(here) (http://doc.mandrakelinux.com/MandrakeLinux/92/en/Starter.html/software-management-install.html) is too complex?
My point is that in order to use Linux without paying any money for it, a user should be required to learn some things. If a user does not want to learn anything, then they can pay money for support, help, guidance, a computer shop, etc. This gives everyone a choice, which is one more choice than they have with Microsoft.
drb1's contention that we are obligated to make Linux even easier that it already is for those people who want a no-cost "no thinking required" OS is wrong. If they want it that easy, let them pay for it with money. (Which they already do with Suse, Mandrake, Linspire, Xandros)
If a person wants to install Firefox on Slackware, they can do the reading- we are under no obligation to do it for them. We can help them, we can write a howto, but those are voluntary-not required.
I have written for you several times When used with a non MDKsoft RPM, IE something written by some one else to run on MDK 9.2 it frequently dosent behave like you discribe then the problems start and there is no documentation to cover this.
It installs from MDKsoft c/d and down loads from MDK, for MDKsoft products perfectly, step out of that enviroment and you have problems.
They attitude be given the run around. Read tons of unnessecary garbage, to glean, a few nessecary tipbits to solve this problem, or pay Techies to do it for you, is counter productive.
These people will learn given time, and help, make it hard for them, at the critical point of transition, and you will lose them for good your statments here reinforce the position.
"Linux people do not really want others to learn about linux, because then these people will see that the linux noalls are really not that clever"
And of course sell more Microsoft O/s.
D.
drb1
09-13-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by fatTrav
Sorry to break this, but my posts are more on topic than yours have, with the exception of my last post and probably this one as they won't or don't have anything to contribute to the thread topic of linux's evolution.
Regarding any disjoint to your original point, I did admit that linux documentation sucks which is the point of your original post.
And just for the record, I have actually DONE something about linux documentation being crappy. I've given Gentoo a number of fixes, enhancements, clarifications on how to improve a few of their docs and how-tos.
Regarding Thai dancers ... I'm a redneck from Southern Illinois and we don't get culture like that.:p
You cant be that red necked, you can admit ,and conceede, you dont defend for the sake of defending.
And you admit you dont read all of your refrence advise posts in detail.
You do for gentoo, gentoos gain.
I suppose the other thing to do is start giving away Red Hat that has better docs, Ther are some good sites for it, but its not as nice an install for the transitional user, there are some very nice step by step H/T for red hat really well explained, in other places.
I will keep watching but I doubt what is required will ever turn up on this forum, considering the behaviour of some of your members.
Calipso didnt tell the 5 year old how to cut and paste.
D.
Calipso
09-13-2004, 08:41 PM
hey youre right!
Point the mouse at the end of the text that you would like to copy.
Push and hold your left mouse button and drag it until the desired text is selected.
Push right mouse button and select copy.
Click on your terminal.
Push right mouse button and select paste.
You have just copied and pasted!:)
Mandrake Docs are pretty crappy.
I still cant figure out how to use their firewall properly:rolleyes:
drb1
09-13-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Calipso
hey youre right!
Point the mouse at the end of the text that you would like to copy.
Push and hold your left mouse button and drag it until the desired text is selected.
Push right mouse button and select copy.
Click on your terminal.
Push right mouse button and select paste.
You have just copied and pasted!:)
Mandrake Docs are pretty crappy.
I still cant figure out how to use their firewall properly:rolleyes:
Click on your terminal
Terminal what? screen / window, where?
It's the first time in the instruction, you have to explain fully, at the begining.
If you can be serious look at the example article, note how it slowly becomes breifer and introduces terms, educating (hopfully) the reader
Then you set them up in groups with glossary links.
This topic is a stumbuling block for so many, is it not logical to improve it, for the easisest distro first?
Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379
09-13-2004, 09:28 PM
Oh-kee Doh-kee... This one should have been closed a long time ago. I edited out some of the ethnic remarks, but this is getting out of hand.
On topic, /dev/random is not a place for political discussion: it is one for technology. Saying something is a "Bush" tactic, or talking about Arabs flying planes into buildings is completely inflammatory and off-topic, so it has no place here. If you want to talk politics and tech, go to Slashdot, or Kuro5hin or something.