installation Mandrake 10 with XPhome

[RonKZ]

20 years experience w/DOS & Windoze, almost no experience with any other OS.

Want and need to switch to Linux from [XPhome on NTFS] but must keep Windoze & desire dual boot.

Got Mandrake 10 3-CD set; installation is a total nightmare. In about 3 weeks work on this I have managed to install only twice. First time I made too many mistakes, killed a computer, so reformatted all drives and and started all over. Second time used an almost-new empty Maxtor 20g with fresh FAT32 format went okay, but something soon destroyed that HD.

My present computer config attached. I am trying now to install Mandrake-Linux 10 alongside XPhome on 40g C: NTFS, and hope to eventually configure all data to reside on 30g D: FAT32.

The present status is setting bios to boot A: C: scsi or CDROM: C: A: does not work, and no other viable bios options are available. In either instance the computer ends up loading XP. I have fiddled to exhaustion with bios settings but have found no combo that works. On boot the CD-ROM shows Mode 4 (don't know what the modes mean).

I suspect I may have initiated the current problem by inserting the M-L CD while in Windoze, which apparently wrote LILO immediately to the MBR. I know nothing about dealing with the MBR. I made a Mandrake boot floppy according to instructions, but Windoze can't read it; apparently the disk was reformatted w/unknown to Windoze.

I know now that it would be better if C: were not NTFS, but I don't know if/how I can to convert to FAT32, and it takes 3 days to reformat and reinstall Windoze and all my apps and get MyDocs back. There must be a better way. I also *think* that GRUB might work better than LILO for this, but have no clue how to make such switch.

Please, somebody set me straight on a path to success here!

[infiniphunk]

If you can get your hands on PartitionMagic it will certainly make you life a lot easier in terms of setting up a dual-booting system. It offers the option "install another OS" and if you follow the instructions carefully it will set everything up nicely for you. As far as I know this is the easiest way to do it, although someone should correct me if I'm wrong.

[RonKZ]

yes, Partion Magic would help, but no budget. Perhaps someone knows a free alternative, or a way of using XP to convert w/o losing all my "stuff"?

attached my computer profile which I believe was dropped on initial post.

thanks, tho

[fatTrav]

you could use the mandrake installer to partition your hard disk. and then install windows to that partition.

the way i've usually done it was to use my win98 boot disk along with Free FDISK (might be called Open FDISK) and partitioned my disk using that, and then formatted the drive I wanted for windows in fat32 using the format command.

Then I threw in my win2k disk, told it which partition to install and let it run for awhile and do the usual windows configure and setup.

After that, windows is all installed and then I would install my linux distro of choice. [With the boot disk and FDISK, I'd only make one partition, the windows partition, and leave the rest blank for linux to partition/setup] I'd tell the installer which partitions to use, and go from there.

This is the only way I've tried to dual boot a system. Though I'd think you could use Mandrake's installer to set up your disk partitions and just leave one partition unformatted for windows and then let the windows installer take care of it. Just make sure you create a boot disk during the Mandrake install because generally if you install linux and then windows, the bootloader will be erased.

There are probably 20 ways to do this, but the only difficult part, and it's not that difficult, is creating the partitions.


To clear up some things you said in your posts:
All linux disk formats are "unknown" to Windoze.

Putting in the Mandrake discs while running Windows should do nothing to your system. Lilo won't be installed by doing that, trust me. The MBR might not have been erased/formatted during the Windows install.

Try to get your bios to boot to hard disk. My boot order is: floppy, cd-rom, hard disk. That is generally the order you want.

[RonKZ]

fatTrav, you missed the entire basics of my issue.

XPhome is completely installed w/all apps & MyDocs, 40g drive formatted NTFS, no partitions.

the ML10 floppy does not work. Setting boot to CDROM does not work, it quickly bypasses that and just reboots XP.

The basic problem is needing to partition the NTFS drive & get rid of the NTFS on a new partition for Linux, which Linux should be doing. Another problem is LILO getting into the MBR prematurely and then misbehaving. Perhaps still another problem is the 2.6x linux kernel. Since I don't know Linux I have no way of knowing except for what I read here -- almost total newbie.

Mandrake's website is of absolutely no use in all this, and if I can't get this to get right, might as well ditch Mandrake. Lots of people use XPhome on NTFS, but Mandrake doesn't have a darn thing about installing with my configuration, not even a "warning". I just want newbies to know this!

So I am asking for "how to" workaround to make the installation with my configuration. I don't care to wait for or pay for Partition Magic; I've computed 20 years without it and will not buy any more Windoze anything.

So help still needed here, thanks

[infiniphunk]

You may want to check out the knoppix3.4 live CD; I know this comes with a partitioning tool. You can even try out linux with this disc before you install anything. Basically, you get the iso for knoppix, burn it to a disc (I think nero has an option for making a bootable disc from an iso) and use the CD to boot knoppix on your system. MEPIS is the same thing and it works beautifully. Knoppix and Mepis can both also be installed to your system withought harming your c:\ or d:\. They are both really nice distros and if you install these you would have a full Debian OS up and running. Give those a try; they wont dissapoint!
Some people claim success using mandrake installation to set up a dual-booting system; I think its possible altho I've always wimped out and used PMagic8.0 cause I got my hands on it somehow. I can also tell you that if you also get your hands on it Norton AVpro wont let you use it to partition your discs, so...
The best way for you to do this is to back up ALL your data, format windows and then before installing any other apps on windows, try using mandrake again to install and set up Lilo.
Cheers!!:)

[RonKZ]

Not hearing any "procedure" on this thread, I found someone had d/l'd BootIt Next Generation (shareware) and resized the NTFS partition with that. So I followed suit, and it appears to have worked..

Next step will be to try again to see if ML10SE will now install. One thing that bugs me is that I keep reading that kernal 2.6x is not stable as 2.4x. I'd never have chosen that distro if I'd known that at ordertime.

If M-L does not install now then I guess it's time to get a different distro, and I'm seeing that preferences vary widely.

I will return and post re: success or failure, probably not until tomorrow, tho, as it's almost pitch-dark here in sunny Arizona.

thank you

[fatTrav]

I didn't miss the basics of your post. I simply wrote how it is normally done. I'm quite sure there are good tools that will resize an existing partition adn not lost any data, but i've heard too many problems from people using them to use them or recommend that procedure to someone else.

as infiniphunk said, and as i said, the best way is to reformat and resize your partitions (backing up all data first), installing windows, then isntalling your linux distribution and setting up the boot loader. Then when that works go ahead and install everything you need for windows.

if your original post was about how to resize that partition and keep all existing data on it, then i read nothing of that sort in your post.

oh well, at least you got things working. Oh, and about the kernels being stable or unstable...I think most people would agree that the 2.6 kernel is quite stable, as is the 2.4 series kernel. Unless this is for an enterprise level server that needs guaranteed uptime 24-7, the 2.6 series kernel will work just fine.

[RonKZ]

fatTrav,
My original post was intended to find out why I could not boot onto the installation disk, in which case Linux had twice before made it's partition(s) and installed. Over the past 5 months that failed hundreds of times and succeeded only twice. One must consider that to be an almost fatal fault with L-M.10.SE, which utterly fails to address this issue and provide proper installation procedure when installing to an NTFS drive.

General,
I can now report that BootIt NG (shareware) did resize the NTFS partition, created an 8mb partition for itself, and enabled me to designate two other partitions, one for Linux and another unspecified, and set up some sort of bootloader, which at that point held only XPhome. BootIt did all from one boot floppy. It did not provide further means to designate the new partition file systems nor format same, but did provide minimal pointers to do so outside BootIt NG using e.g. fdisk.

That done, I again attempted to restart into CD#1, which again failed. However, this time I went directly to a restart into CD#2, which did snag the boot and asked for a boot disk, and upon inserting CD#1 proceeded to install.

Strangely, each of the now-3 installations seemed to follow different paths. but each "succeeded". Other than it's many failures to access the CDROM and proceed to installation;
Installation #1 was rather botched by my bad choices, not by Linux, but did automatically connect to my DSL. I spent a couple of hours exploring all this new stuff, surfed the web, etc, ran OO.o (which I use in Windoze). So I reformatted that drive and then had *many* failed attempts to access the installation CD, and that computer finally died.
Installation #2 I did *somewhat* better, and it also connected to my DSL, but my mouse didn't work, which I managed to fix. However, being installed alone on 20g HD proved to be a not-viable solution for me. Then in attempting to reformat the drive to FAT32 something went very wrong, the HD thought somehow it was 55g, and could not be restored.
Installation #3, with me now having an inkling of Linux understanding (enough to be dangerous, right?), is perhaps a viable installation except that the networking seems completely screwed. I have two LAN100 cards, #1 connected to DSL line & #2 connected to my gal's computer simply so she can use the DSL. During bootup reports 1 error, an "eth1 failure" and I am not connecting to my DSL. Linux set my DSL automatically during Installations #1 & 2, but asked me some questions during #3 which I should not have answered!! Haven't figured out how to fix it, so maybe someone can advise ??

Bootloader took over from BootIt for the dual boot menu, so I assume that as the partitioning is done I can now remove it. I am concerned that if it *is* needed, it might otherwise quit at the end of the 30-day shareware trial period and leave me in a quandry. What to do ???

Anyway, I have apparently accomplished my objective of installing L-M without 3 days for reformat-reinstall tedium, and thought this might be useful to others.

I could still use some help on the 2 questions about DSL config and removing BootIt.

thank you

[fatTrav]

I guess neither of us were on the same page as the other. Your first post wasn't totally clear (to me at least) on what you were asking. I've only seen hundreds of these posts on dualbooting and I guess I gave you the generic response, which usually works. I guess next time we cross paths we ought to be clearer :D

One must consider that to be an almost fatal fault with L-M.10.SE, which utterly fails to address this issue and provide proper installation procedure when installing to an NTFS drive

Mandrake, or any other linux distro that I know abuot, can't install onto a NTFS drive/partition. Linux distriubtions will only install onto a native linux partition or drive, which means it must be in a native linux file format. reiser, etx2, etx3 are common linux native file formats. NTFS isn't. For what it is worth, linux is still really new (by new I mean the code isn't marked as experimental and highly dangerous) at writing to NTFS.

Sometimes a "bad burn" will cause odd install problems. I'm thinking something went bad with your disc one with your statement "...I again attempted to restart into CD#1, which again failed. However, this time I went directly to a restart into CD#2, which did snag the boot and asked for a boot disk, and upon inserting CD#1 proceeded to install."

I would think you could remove the BootIt program just fine and not have any problems. Try a google search for "uninstall BootIt" a few of the hits looked promising.

travis

[saikee]

I could hardy believe the alleged problems created by Mandrake 10. Mandrake 9.2 and 10 are among the 15 I have in the hard drive. 6 of the distros have 2.6 kernel. I haven't run into any stability problem yet. All of my systems boot each other and Xp even on or two are not working properly but their Lilo or Grub bootloaders work perfectly. I think there may be some misunderstnading.

The standard Linux distros I got can read but not wirte NTFS files but there has been a report here saying Mandrake 10 does have a facilities to "resize" a NTFS partition during installation.

All my Linux systems were installed as fatTrav said using the native Ext2 or Ext3 files systems. I haven't come across one that permits me to choose NTFS file system for the installation.

[fatTrav]

Originally posted by saikee
All my Linux systems were installed as fatTrav said using the native Ext2 or Ext3 files systems. I haven't come across one that permits me to choose NTFS file system for the installation.

That's because it simply isn't possible. Linux HAS to be installed on a native linux format type. I _think_ you can install linux on a ext2/3 partition inside a Dos partition, but I'm sure this is more trouble that it is worth and you aren't getting around the fact linux has to live on a linux format type.

saikee, the links in your sig are quite good. especially the 'descriptive' names for your threads :D

[PeteTheNotSoGr8]

thanx guys this helped me too

and be warned that the emergencydisks won't cut it with fattrav's method they insist on writing over the entire harddrive.

But the BootIt NG, that works

[fatTrav]

if you are refering to the use of a win98 boot disk, you are mistaken. you can use those discs to format any partition on the disc you like, you don't have to format the whole drive.

i use them to partition the whole drive if i am going to have a dual boot with windows on the system (had the best success rates that way) but only format the partition for windows. the disk does get "trashed" in that all existing partitions are removed.

if you want to resize an existing partition to preserve the data, then my method isn't going to work well. it won't work at all. i still prefer and most people prolly do as well to wipe the disk clean and start from there. i've never had luck with resizing partitions, so i do it my way.

i never said my method would preserve data. my method requires prior planning on disk management and then "trashing" the disk and starting over. as long as it works is all that matters.

[PeteTheNotSoGr8]

there was no more info on my hard drive to save as I had been trying for awhile. And I was switching betwee two OS's the hard way as the need arose.

But I could not make your method work. My boot disk for ME will write over the entire harddrive, it won't ask about partitions. It just pops the 1999 version of Norton Ghost and installs over the entire harddrive.

[RonKZ]

Past problem 1, but have further now. Here is where I am now with this:
* Drive 40g C: NTFS with all XPhome apps and documents
* Using BootIt NG successfully resize the NTFS partition (#1) to abt 18g; BootIt created it's own 8m partition (#4) created two more partitiions, (#2 ) abt 10g designated for Linux, (#3 undesignated. BootIt format option for #2 & #3 not available.

Bios boot set CD, C: A:.
* Initially then would not boot to CD#1, but would boot to CD#2, then provided to replace CD#2 with CD#1. Proceeded thru an installation in which I spent a lot of time choosing apps without much knowledge of the apps, but specifically left off OOo because I wanted to install latest v.1.1.2 later.
* Installation "suceeded", and found that the BootIt startup menu was replaced by (?) either LILO or Grub, I think LILO. This would indicate that Linux sucessfully formatted it's installation partition (to nfs3 ??, I guess)
* PROBLEM #1: The installation did NOT make the connection to my DSL, probably as a result of some mistake I made during installation, perhaps designating DSL on eth1 rather than eth0, but I'm not sure. Whatever happened, DSL had been activated on both of the earlier installations, which occurred without any input from me that I can recall.

So I fiddled with config at some length, but was never able to make the DSL connection. My DSL manual gives nothing about connecting w/Linux, only windoze or mac. I have not phoned, but doubt that my DSL provider could/would help.

So of cource without a connection to the internet I cannot view "Documentation" and don't seem able to find any help files, no idea why.

PROBLEM 2: So decided to just try reinstalling. Figuring that perhaps a part of the problem was a bad CD#1, I downloaded CD#1 "Official", the md5sum check OK, burned a new CD with BurnIt which seemed quite OK.

I figure that the best approach for me (as newbie don't know how to fix my problems would be to reinstall. The computer now seems to boot either the old or the new CD#1, but I cannot get anything accomplished from there.

* using <f1>, then boot: rescue returns "Please wait... trying to access CD-ROM". Well wait, wait, wait and nadda, then finding that the computer has completely hung - even the power-switch is disabled. (I have also tried boot: expert and boot: <something else> and results are the same)

* using <Install> returns
- /usr/bin/perl: error while loading shared libraries: libperl.so: cannot open share object file, no such file or directory
- exited abnormally :-(
- sending termination signals ... done
- sending kill signals ... done
- unmounting file systems
/tmp/image
/tmp/stage 2
- you may safely reboot or halt your system
[at this point I can find no command to use, so must simply reboot, but the system is not hung]

The above has occurred repeatedly with either CD#1.

BTW saikee, there's no "allegedly" about it, every bit is fact. Installing Mandrake Linux has been a gigantic SOB. I would certainly not be giving Linux a 3rd try were it not that I don't want any more of M$, and XPhome doesn't come close to filling my needs.

I hope someone can/will help me turn this corner. Thank you all.

[fatTrav]

ah, well, it works with my win98 boot disk.

[saikee]

PeteTheNotsoGr8,

Now there is a difference.

All Windows must allow a user the freedom to partition the hard disk.

You are not installing it but restoring from a Ghosted image from a backup.

You could resized after restoring the image though as I have done it loads of time..

[PDR60]

Here is a couple of huides that may help.

http://www.linuxloader.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=11

and

http://www.linuxloader.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7

[RonKZ]

thank you, Infiniphunk - good link - went all the way thru it.

Since my last post I have reformatted the Linux partition (using Windoze98 fdisk and then formatting FAT32 in XP), horrible lack of choices there) in an attempt to wipe out the existing installation. Apparently I did not wipe out the bootloader in MBR, tho, as I'm continuing to get the load-choice menu. That appears to be interferring now with booting to the CD-ROM.

I'll be messing with that later today and post back.

[saikee]

RonKZ,
Don't be hard on the bootloader. It is no different if it is from Windows or Linux.

When you format a hard drive you format the file system only but the first track (or superblock) of a partition is never used by any file system in a PC. Thus it can remain there untill you "overwritr it with another bootloader.

The bootloader never interferes with your CD rom booting. The boot sequence is controlled by the BIOS. When nothing is bootable (floppy or CD) then the CPU will search the hard disk for a boot code if you have included it in the BIOS booting queue.

If you don't want to see the Linux bootloader, just boot to a DOS floppy and type format c:/s so that the DOS bootloader can overwrite the MBR.

[RonKZ]

thank you, Infiniphunk - good link - went all the way thru it.

Since my last post I have reformatted the Linux partition (using Windoze98 fdisk and then formatting FAT32 in XP), horrible lack of choices there) in an attempt to wipe out the existing installation. Apparently I did not wipe out the bootloader in MBR, tho, as I'm continuing to get the load-choice menu. That appears to be interferring now with booting to the CD-ROM.

I'll be messing with that later today and post back.

[saikee]

RonKZ,

Just a couple of points to make life easier.

A distro always like to format the partition. Window does not support Linux and could not possibly format a partition with a file system like Ext2 or Ext3 suitable for a Linux installation. Why waste time with Window formatting?

You mentioned taking time to decide on what packages to include. I never do, just click "select all". Yet my distros are in 5GB partitions and you are using 10Gb.

It may not be a bad idea to load more than one Linux. Chances are you may see a pattern of things and may help you to understand how the system work. The first Linux by default will boot Window. If you put the bootloader of the first Linux also in its partition the second Linux will pick it up as a boot choice automatically (most distros do) so that you have 3 systems to boot from. The systems will look after themselves. One Linux may not kick start all your hardware but a few together will.

[RonKZ]

thanks, saikee,

I'd written an answer 2 days ago, but went off to look something up to finish it and lost it.

<chuckle> you folks would really like me to format my harddrive, eh? No way, Jose'! I did fiddle with BootItNG enough to get things basically right *I think!*. Ya see, us old/former CPM>DOS>winders folk know about fdisk and format, but have never dealt with any of this other schtuff! I had no clue there were so many other disk formats! Also never heard of just making a partition & leaving it unformatted - how are we to know!? But you're right, that's okay, ML found the right spot took care of formatting.

I could hardly know the difference between bootloaders, and couldn't care less which one is used, except when it (LILO in this instance) gets in the way of trying to boot CD#1.

"The bootloader never interferes with your CD rom booting" is patently incorrect; it absolutely *does* interfere, and then one doesn't have a clue what the heck to do next. It also installs some tidbit in the MBR completely without warning the very first time one opens CD#1, which results in failure after failure while one is trying to find an answer for this mystery.

Meanwhile I accidentally discovered tho, that when boot bypasses the CD-ROM and the boot menu appears, that I could choose the last entry (floppy), insert the LM boot floppy and CD#1, and get an installation going. If that were be included in the installation documentation it would have saved me many days.

During the duration of this thread I have installed ML 3 times, so definitely have found workarounds for that initial problem. None installed correctly -- did not connect with my DSL on eth0 regardless of config instructions by me -- and the last one also did not connect eth1 with my gal's computer in the next room, so booting brings "FAILED" on both eth0 and eth1. However, my earlier first two installations both managed to find & connect to DSL with no input from me -- I believe that was the difference between starting with <Enter> on the first 2 tries vs. <F1> on these last 3 tries, but I've been thru so much that my mind is definitely muddled! This I do know -- I can't fix it in ML config after installation, no matter how I fiddle.

My 3rd installation I following your advice and installed everything, except the last item in the left column LXX-something, because that brought a message that it would have to install 2.4 rather than 2.6. Whatever that LXX-thing was, it isn't checked in the default, so I figured one could live without it.

I cannot imagine installing more/other Linux packages - this ML-10.0 is quite enough trouble and mystery, as it did install and get my DSL going the first two times, and has left me with more clutter than I can deal with.

A note - My CD set is called 10.0 Community. Trying to work around my troubles I dl'd & burned another CD#1 called l0.0 Official. They are NOT the same size -- so wonder if either can be used, or would that be yet another glitch?

I'm going back off Winders now and try to reinstall <Enter> and see if that gets my DSL going. I'm getting kinda desperate for some advice on that!

Thanks