iPod for Linux

[TonyB]

Hello,
I am looking for an MP3 player like a Mac iPod. Creative makes a 'Nomad Jukebox', I am sure there are others. How well does linux support these? Does it work the same as burning a CD with GToaster? Any info/Links would be appreciated...

I use Mandrake 9.0 w/9.2 on the way.........

[Hayl]

they mount like hard disks. in fact they are very handy to use for transporting any type of files from system to system.

[ ddicks@linuxbox /mnt/ipod ] $ ll
total 12
drwxrwxrwx 2 ddicks users 4096 Jan 1 1980 Calendars
drwxrwxrwx 2 ddicks users 4096 Mar 15 2003 Contacts
drwxrwxrwx 6 ddicks users 4096 Feb 8 2003 iPod_Control

the iPod is fully functional - even to the point of being able to use the new aac files under GtkPod (http://gtkpod.sf.net).

I have a Mac iPod that I reformatted to VFAT (you have to reformat them to VFAT for it to work, the support for the Mac File System is not good enough under Linux kernels yet) that I hook up with FireWire.

For a FireWire iPod, you need the following kernel modules:

<M> IEEE 1394 (FireWire) support (EXPERIMENTAL)
<M> OHCI-1394 support
<M> SBP-2 support (Harddisks etc.)
<M> Raw IEEE1394 I/O support

The iPod will be mounted like a scsi drive.
/dev/sda2 /mnt/ipod vfat defaults,user,noauto,sync,umask=000 0 0

It is mounted as sda2 because when the modules are loaded and the iPod is connected, sda1 is the iPod firmware.

I leave these modules running all the time:
ieee1394, ohci1394, raw1394

I load the vfat and sbp2 modules in the ~/.gtkpod/gtkpod.in script when the GtkPod program loads, and unload them when it exits ~/.gtkpod/gtkpod.out

i use a script to rescan the SCSI bus after the iPod is connected and the modules are loaded. i didn't always do this but something changed with Gentoo at some point and it no longer creates the devices properly when the modules get loaded so I run the following after i modprobe the module(s) in the gtkpod.in script.

#!/bin/bash
# Skript to rescan SCSI bus, using the
# scsi add-single-device mechanism
# (w) 98/03/19 Kurt Garloff <kurt@garloff.de> (c) GNU GPL

# Return hosts. /proc/scsi/HOSTADAPTER/? must exist
findhosts ()
{
hosts=
for name in /proc/scsi/*/?; do
name=${name#/proc/scsi/}
if test ! $name = scsi
then hosts="$hosts ${name#*/}"
echo "Host adapter ${name#*/} (${name%/*}) found."
fi
done
}

# Test if SCSI device $host $channen $id $lun exists
# Outputs description from /proc/scsi/scsi, returns new
testexist ()
{
grepstr="scsi$host Channel: 0$channel Id: 0*$id Lun: 0$lun"
new=`cat /proc/scsi/scsi|grep -e"$grepstr"`
if test ! -z "$new"
then cat /proc/scsi/scsi|grep -e"$grepstr"
cat /proc/scsi/scsi|grep -A2 -e"$grepstr"|tail -2|pr -o4 -l1
fi
}

# Perform search (scan $host)
dosearch ()
{
for channel in $channelsearch; do
for id in $idsearch; do
for lun in $lunsearch; do
new=
devnr="$host $channel $id $lun"
echo "Scanning for device $devnr ..."
printf "OLD: "
testexist
if test ! -z "$remove" -a ! -z "$new"
then echo "scsi remove-single-device $devnr" >/proc/scsi/scsi
echo "scsi add-single-device $devnr" >/proc/scsi/scsi
printf "\r\x1b[A\x1b[A\x1b[AOLD: "
testexist
if test -z "$new"; then printf "\rDEL: \r\n\n\n\n"; let rmvd+=1; fi
fi
if test -z "$new"
then printf "\rNEW: "
echo "scsi add-single-device $devnr" >/proc/scsi/scsi
testexist
if test -z "$new"; then printf "\r\x1b[A"; else let found+=1; fi
fi
done
done
done
}


# main
if test @$1 = @--help -o @$1 = @-h
then
echo "Usage: rescan-scsi-bus.sh [-l] [-w] [-c] [host [host ...]]"
echo " -l activates scanning for LUNs 0 .. 7 [default: 0]"
echo " -w enables scanning for device IDs 0 .. 15 [def.: 0 .. 7]"
echo " -r enables removing of devices [default: disabled]"
echo " -c enables scanning of channels 0 1 [default: 0]"
echo " If hosts are given, only these are scanned [default: all]"
exit 0
fi

# defaults
lunsearch="0"
idsearch="0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7"
channelsearch="0"
remove=""

# Scan options
opt="$1"
while test ! -z "$opt" -a -z "${opt##-*}"; do
opt=${opt#-}
case "$opt" in
l) lunsearch="0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7" ;;
w) idsearch="0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15" ;;
c) channelsearch="0 1" ;;
r) remove=1 ;;
*) echo "Unknown option -$opt !" ;;
esac
shift
opt="$1"
done

# Hosts given ?
if test @$1 = @; then findhosts; else hosts=$*; fi

declare -i found=0
declare -i rmvd=0
for host in $hosts; do dosearch; done
echo "$found new device(s) found. "
echo "$rmvd device(s) removed. "

the best thing to do is to set up your sudoers file with the following comamnds in a Command Alias entry so you can just use sudo in the gtkpod.in and gtkpod.out scripts.

/sbin/modprobe vfat
/sbin/modprobe raw1394
/sbin/modprobe sbp2 sbp2_force_inquiry_hack=1
/sbin/rmmod sbp2
/sbin/rmmod vfat
/sbin/rmmod fat
/sbin/rmmod raw1394, /usr/bin/rescan-scsi-bus.sh

Here are my gtkpod.in and gtkpod.out scripts:

gtkpod.inif /sbin/lsmod | grep vfat;
then
/bin/true;
else
sudo /sbin/modprobe vfat
fi

if /sbin/lsmod | grep sbp2;
then
/bin/true
else
sudo /sbin/modprobe sbp2 sbp2_force_inquiry_hack=1
fi

sudo /usr/bin/rescan-scsi-bus.sh

gtkpod.outsudo /sbin/rmmod sbp2
#sudo /sbin/rmmod 1394

sudo /sbin/rmmod vfat

sudo /usr/bin/rescan-scsi-bus.sh

sbp2 works better if you pass the following parameter to it when you modprobe it.
/sbin/modprobe sbp2 sbp2_force_inquiry_hack=1

The entire firewire system in the kernel is more stable if all of your "Input Core Support" (keyboard/mouse/all of it) stuff is modularized - don't ask me why - I don't know - it just works better. :)

PS: Some kernels have really buggy firewire support, I use the latest Wolk kernel and it is pretty stable. If you can get a usb2 iPod, it may work better for you if you know that firewire (ieee1394) is buggy in your kernel.

[TonyB]

EXELLENT REPLY, Thanks Hayl!!

[Hayl]

yw, let me know if you get one and run into any problems.

i just got an AUX port put into my MINI Coopser S so I am using my iPod as a jukebox in the car now and just love it.

my setup is basically the same is this guy's except my cig-ligher apater is different. (and my gear shift is not modded :))

http://www.sic-culture.com/mini/ipod_installed_1.jpg

http://www.sic-culture.com/mini/ipod_installed_2.jpg

http://www.sic-culture.com/mini/ipod_installed_4.jpg

[snuck]

I'm also considering an ipod, and would appreciate some advice...

Is the only difference between windows and apple ipods how the sda2 partition is formated, so switching between the two is as simple as reformatting, or are there other differences. I ask because I have lot's of friends that apples, and there is certainly a possibility that I'll get one at some point (as well as a linux box, not instead ;)) so an apple one would be more useful.

Do you have any idea if reliable HFS support is on the cards?

And finally, the readme (http://gtkpod.sourceforge.net/README) is very kernel specific, and goes upto 2.4.21, does this mean that only those two work, or only those two are documented? and what about the 2.6 kernels?

Thanks, snuck.

Edit: Ooh, also I was under the impression that you could either use it as an mp3 player, or an hdd, not both at the same time. Am I mistaken, or is it just the itunes software or something that enforces it?

[TonyB]

One more question Hayl,
Is the iPod thes same as (functionally) as Creative's version of a 'JukeBox'?

I don't have firewire, so I assume they are accessed via USB?

TIA

[JThundley]

I've been drooling over the Rio Karma (http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/shop/_templates/item_main_Rio.asp?model=220&cat=35) lately. I really think I'm gonna get one.

I learned about it at SCALE. It's got native Ogg/FLAC/MP3/WMA support, it runs Linux, it's software is programmed in Java and connects via Ethernet, so the software will work on any computer with a network connection and a JVM can use it. $330 after rebate.

What do you like or not like about the Karma?

[TonyB]

JThundly/Hayl,
OK, the Rio is USB and a nice option besides the iPod. Does the iPod only connect via firewire? And must it be a windows iPod (according to GtkPod)?

TIA

[JThundley]

Features straight from the Karma site:

# 20GB* HDD plays back over 330 hours of MP3 or 660 hours of WMA music (over 5000 MP3 or 10,000 WMA songs)**
# USB 2.0 for fast transfers
# Transfer content between multiple PCs
# 15-hour continuous playback with the rechargeable LiIon battery
# 5-Band Parametric Equalizer with pre-sets
# Dynamic Playlist Generation
# Auto-DJ intelligently finds, mixes and creates playlists from tracks on command
# Included docking station supports: – Dual RCA Line-Outs to connect to most home stereo components – Ethernet port — Assign an IP address for networking capability – Auto-synchronization with host PC
# Plays Ogg Vorbis

You're right, it uses USB 2.0, but it also uses ethernet so any computer (with the right privelages I hope) can access and transfer music to and from it.

:eek: eeek, but look what I found in the requirements:
Windows® 98SE, 2000, ME, XP

I was told that it works great with Linux and I still believe what I was told. If I buy one I'll let you know.

[TonyB]

I saw the requirements. I won't buy until next year AFTER I build my new system:

ASUS A7V8X-X
AMD 2400+
512
Mandrake 9.2

will rob the old system of cr-rw,video,sblive...etc

[saturn-vk]

I'm sorry for derailing the thread like this, but has anyone worked with the iRiver mp3 player (the one with the ogg support?). I'm planning on buying one early January and I need to know how it works in linux.

[snuck]

Originally posted by TonyB
Does the iPod only connect via firewire? And must it be a windows iPod (according to GtkPod)[/B]

The ipod can also connect using usb. If you read the whole of the README there is a sentance about aset of kernel patches, (can't remember by who, it says though), that you can apparently use to get HFS support, but the comments surrounding it don't exactly inspire confidence...

[JThundley]

Originally posted by saturn-vk
I'm sorry for derailing the thread like this, but has anyone worked with the iRiver mp3 player (the one with the ogg support?). I'm planning on buying one early January and I need to know how it works in linux.

What do you like about the iRiver? It looks like they are all flash-memory based... Those kinds are usually bad news.

[TonyB]

I thought HFS was still experimental?

Also, is firewire faster or usb2, or does it really make any difference?
It seems the iPod comes with BOTH (firewire & usb2 cables).

TIA

[Ninja_Squirrel]

Originally posted by TonyB
I thought HFS was still experimental?

Also, is firewire faster or usb2, or does it really make any difference?
It seems the iPod comes with BOTH (firewire & usb2 cables).

TIA

I heard firewire is better. From my understanding it takes less cpu time and can has a better transfer rate. It can do a constant transfer rate and will not drop like USB will.

[TonyB]

good info here, thanks to all that replyed!!

[Hayl]

Originally posted by TonyB
One more question Hayl,
Is the iPod thes same as (functionally) as Creative's version of a 'JukeBox'?

I don't have firewire, so I assume they are accessed via USB?

TIA

pretty much however, the iPod has the nicest interface on the actual unit in my opinion. apple puts a lot more time into ergonomics, and interface design in all their products imho but - you also pay a lot more for that.

[Hayl]

Originally posted by TonyB
JThundly/Hayl,
OK, the Rio is USB and a nice option besides the iPod. Does the iPod only connect via firewire? And must it be a windows iPod (according to GtkPod)?

TIA

no - you can get USB iPods. from what i have heard, it is a firewire to usb adapter - don't quote me on that though :)

[saturn-vk]

Originally posted by JThundley
What do you like about the iRiver? It looks like they are all flash-memory based... Those kinds are usually bad news.

no, I should have added that i'm looking at the ihp-120 one, it's a harddrive based one, like the ipod. and the only thing i like about the iriver is the ogg support. and the fact that the ipod battery only lasts for 18 months, and changing it is expensive.

[Hayl]

Originally posted by TonyB
I thought HFS was still experimental?

Also, is firewire faster or usb2, or does it really make any difference?
It seems the iPod comes with BOTH (firewire & usb2 cables).

TIA

i think it is a 6 of one, half-dozen of the other between firewire and USB.

if you have an Audigy sound card, then you can use its built-in the firewire port :) an added bonus for the audigy cards imho :)

[Hayl]

Originally posted by saturn-vk
and the fact that the ipod battery only lasts for 18 months, and changing it is expensive.

i've had my iPod for more than 18 months and it has not needed a battery repalcement. my understanding is that it is some new battery technology that doesn't lose its ability to be recharged - who knows - maybe my battery will die soon :)

[JThundley]

I heard that the battery only lasting 18 months was a myth. I read it from Apple's site, but I can't find it now. These guys made a video about it, and apple said that they just wanted attention.

Oh well.

I still think that the Karma looks better than the Iriver. Same storage space, USB2 and Ethernet, (runs Linux :D), compatible with Linux (probably), it looks like a smaller form factor, it's $70 cheaper.

[Ninja_Squirrel]

Also now you can buy Applecare for your iPods now. It will add 1year so 2years all togather. I think its $50.00

[Hayl]

I'm going to get a Gen4 iPod next year I think. I have a Gen3 at the moment 10 GB - 'bout half-full ( ~ 1000 tracks ) but I can see the benefit of having 50 GB or more of music now that I use it in the car :)

PS: For anyone who is thinking fo getting one of the FM transmitters for an iPod for the car - don't bother - they are only decent outside of the city where there is no interference... was $40 CDN of wasted money for me before I got the aux port for the car so I could just use a male - to male headphone jack. even if you get decent reception, they sound crappy (i.e. lose a lot of stereo separation)

[saturn-vk]

Originally posted by JThundley
I heard that the battery only lasting 18 months was a myth. I read it from Apple's site, but I can't find it now. These guys made a video about it, and apple said that they just wanted attention.

Oh well.

I still think that the Karma looks better than the Iriver. Same storage space, USB2 and Ethernet, (runs Linux :D), compatible with Linux (probably), it looks like a smaller form factor, it's $70 cheaper.

what about ogg support? iriver is like the only device that readily supports it.

[JThundley]

I posted it like 5 times! Ogg support!!!:D :D and it runs mother-freaking LINUX!!!

[TonyB]

the rio handles ogg as does iriver. Are these players just a laptop hardrives, or are some like system memory? If they are, which is better?

GEEZ! My origional question was about an iPod, NOW I am looking at 2 others, comparing specs/price, rebates..........interesting! Like I said, GOOD info here.

TIA

[JThundley]

heh, I'm still madly in love with that Karma. These players use hard drives (laptop or otherwise). In my experience, hard drive ones are better.

I guess it really depends on what you want though. Of course, you can consider the price and space of different players on your own.
Flash memory based players are a LOT more responsive and usually smaller, and are impossible to skip. The downside? They usually don't have a whole lot of storage space. I owned the original 32MB rio mp3 player. It sucks to be able to fit less than a whole CD and have to delete and add new songs to it all the time.
Jukebox or hard drive based players hold a lot more data, because they have freakin hard drives in them! I only have experience using my Nomad Jukebox, but hard drive ones are usually bigger and slower. You have to wait for the drive to spin up and read the song before it plays. You also have to be more gentle with it. They can also get a little expensive, but I think all the space is worth it. I carry my entire music collection in my Nomad in my Cadillac. I have all my music in a playlist on random. I just cruise and keep hitting "next". It's the best for driving, one hand operation, no eyes required.

edit:spelling

[TonyB]

Thanks for the reply JThundley. I have learned alot from this thread, now I have to make up my mind on what I need vs want:D :D