How I Didnt Do It !!!!!!!!!!!

[doig]

Linux may be faster than many other OS's including NT/Dos, it may even be more secure and it is deffinately cheaper, but......... its still crapus magnimus!
This over six years, is my fifth Linux install using an off the shelf Distribution, on up to date PC's. Never have I had a setup that came close to delivering the day to day functionality and reliability of any, of the many DOS/Windows installations.

My advice to any serious PC user, (by that I mean people who regard the PC as a tool with which to do whatever it is they do and not a digital toy.) NOT to invest the time and effort into trying to get Linux to match the funtionality and general working environment of Windows.

It just too much of a mish mash of technical bull**** and disorganised self organising systems. A minefield of strife, stress and futility.

If you have the time to spend endlessly trying to solve the unsolvable or you have the money to employ an "expert" or you have a genuinely masocistic mind set then Linux may be for you... Its NOT for normal people, who just want to write documents, work a database, download a mpeg or basic network stuff.

May Allah rip my toungue out for extolling the virtues of windows, may I suffer in hell, but when you've banged your head aginst a wall long enough there comes a point when you goto admit defeat.

IF only Linux had a few more chiefs and not so many enthusiastic indians.

PS( when I say Linux, I of course refer to the complete package, kernel,shell,GUI that delivers, or is supposed to deliver an alternative to an OS like Windows.. sadly it just dosnt.)

And Please dont try and tell me I'm wrong! I'm not.
I will uninstall this RH8 distribution, now and in 1 hour I will have a full XP install, with all the applications setup and running, LAN, printers, sharing, firewall, office etc etc.

Ive wasted nearly three weeks so far on trying to get RH8 and all the various apps working. Even Mozilla/Java, the j2re is still not working, a trivial trivial trivial tiny issue that just should not even be an issue.

Yours unhappily
Duncan BSc
Software Engineering
Synthesis Software

[filp]

Well you'll be a great loss, your presence has been a great support to the open source comunity and your assistance will be greatly missed.


Bye.

[evac-q8r]

The program shall move on without you.

EVAC

[MB[DK]]

I agree to some extent. Linux is a pain in the youknowwhat.
Getting to know windows2000 server is much easier than using a Linux distro as a server.

Now if someone would just make a linux distro with the same amount of wizards as windows cotains, then I would abandon windows totally, but im keeping my XP partition for now.

Linux is cool, no doubt about it, and it has come a long way since I first tried it many years ago, but I just dont see it competing with windows XP, .NET or 2000.

Whats needed is closer integration of the different components, more and far better hardware recognition.

Just my opinion, am I completely wrong?

I like my red hat 9, but I also have to admit that XP is cool aswell.

[irlandes]

Originally posted by filp
Well you'll be a great loss, your presence has been a great support to the open source comunity and your assistance will be greatly missed.


Bye.

Oh, such subtle sarcasm! Hee, hee. Six postings and one of them denouncing all that is linux, great support. However, that is the best approach to take, to appear nice about it. You did it so well.

Frankly, there are a number of trolls on various linux forums who are angry because they couldn't get linux to work. In some cases, it's a weird hardware combination. In some cases, it's simply lack of ability or lack of willingness to learn.

And, it doesn't matter, really. If a person is not happy with linux, they shouldn't be using linux, period. Nor should they feel a need to apologize for this decision, nor should they be harrassed.

However, to go the next step and announce linux is just plain no good because they couldn't personally make it work on their computer, that is not acceptable. Too many people in the world, including entire schools and companies in the U.S., including entire provinces of countries in Europe, are using linux to do all the things we do with Windows when we have no choice, to say that linux can't do the job.

I am sorry he had a bad experience. It must be very frustrating to put that much time into it, and fail, especially for a "software engineer".

>>who just want to write documents, work a database, download a mpeg or basic network stuff.

Sorry, Charlie, but lots of people do all these things with linux.

[deathadder]

why do people post stuff like this?? if someone really gives up why should we have to be told about it?? doesnt make sense to me but what do i no?

im not sayin people shouldnt get annoyed at how different linux is to windows but for me, someone using my linux install to do everyday stuff ive had no real problems, that werent solved in a short period of time that goes for all of the distro ive installed, suse mandrake, redhat, slackware and most recently and happily debian

[doig]

filp, your wit and sarcasm are noted, but only go to confirm all in my previous post.

You and those like you are into the "open source community" A community that forms the backbone of the whole Linux project and its development and thats great, fantastic. Bully for you.

I'm not. I just want the OS you all keep saying you have......

The One that puts Windows to shame.
The One that deliverers unrivalled stability.
The One that offers an intuative GUI enviroment.

But the community does not deliver!

Maybe because they (the community) are really more interested all things technical, than addressing the practical needs of the non IT literate user.

Anyway, having got out of bed on the wrong side, mit a hangover, I now feel a lot better, so who knows........ maybe tommorow I'll give it another go.............

have a tinny on me!

DRDW

[stumbles]

Originally posted by doig

If you have the time to spend endlessly trying to solve the unsolvable or you have the money to employ an "expert" or you have a genuinely masocistic mind set then Linux may be for you... Its NOT for normal people, who just want to write documents, work a database, download a mpeg or basic network stuff.


If that is all you are trying to do, then how could you possibly have that much problem?

That's a fine rant in an obtuse way.

If you do a fresh install and cannot launch Kwrite, OO and create a document etc then you have no business setting infront of any computer no matter what OS is installed.

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by doig
I just want the OS you all keep saying you have......

The One that puts Windows to shame.
The One that deliverers unrivalled stability.
The One that offers an intuative GUI enviroment.

But the community does not deliver!

Maybe because they (the community) are really more interested all things technical, than addressing the practical needs of the non IT literate user.

Linux isn't really for practical use by the non-IT literate user, but that doesn't mean it doesn't put Windows to shame or offer unrivaled stability, because it does if you know how to use it. Riding a bike is easy, but if someone gave me a free jet I'd probably learn how to fly it. User-friendliness doesn't imply superiority.

[WackyOldWiz]

Having recently installed RH8 (3 attempts) on one machine and MDK9.0 (2 attempts) on the other, I tend to agree with the sentiments at the beginning of this thread.

I doubt "Linux" will ever be a commercial rival to the Gates empire but it does provide affordable brain fodder if you have the time. I am nowhere near achieving the functionality of my Windows network and yes, I've spent a lot of tiime getting this far but I've had a lot of free help (and entertainment) from these forums.

Long live the Linux alternative, make of it what you will.:D

[mrBen]

I'm sorry that we've missed an opportunity to add another Glaswegian to the fold :(

Having said that, a couple of points:

1. I don't remember anyone ever saying that Linux had the most intuitive GUI.

2. WackyOldWiz - if Linux were not a commercial reality, I don't think companies like IBM, HP and Sun would bother putting any money into it. Whether or not it is a commerical reality on the desktop remains to be seen, but so often the desktop follows the enterprise/office solutions.

Well, that's me. Enjoy your Windows. I won't be joining you, but that's my choice.

[evac-q8r]

You forgot ORACLE. :p

EVAC

[DJBanaan]

I'd have to agree to the fact that Linux is less user friendly than Windows. But I personally have never experienced any unsolvable problems. It just takes a bit more time and effort.
If you invest just that little bit extra, in the end you WILL be rewarded.

Windows just makes you lazy...

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by doig
Never have I had a setup that came close to delivering the day to day functionality and reliability of any, of the many DOS/Windows installations.

Ive wasted nearly three weeks so far on trying to get RH8 and all the various apps working. Even Mozilla/Java, the j2re is still not working, a trivial trivial trivial tiny issue that just should not even be an issue.


I have the sneaking suspicion that you think Linux is an intuitive replacement for Windows. If you are trying Linux to get a better Windows, give up. If you are using Linux to get a better OS, stick with it. Linux isn't windows and I wouldn't be using it if it was.

The two points above...
I have NEVER had it NOT do as much or more than Windows right out of the fresh install on any machine. 23 installs for me and my family and friends to date, leading to my next point...

Redhat 8.0, FULL install, everything installed and worked, zero configuration, Mozilla, java, you name it. (I did upgrade to nvidia board after). Same on my wife's computer, who doesn't know anything about computers and doesn't want to know, everything works great and I haven't had the twice weekly maintenance call from her office.

In fact, my box delivers MORE day to day functionality than Windows can ever hope to achieve for a telecommuter like me.

Anyway, Bill is glad to have your $, er, I mean you back. With XP he can keep tabs on you too. Make sure to upgrade to Longhorn as soon as it comes out so that he can monitor every CD and DVD you play and direct Web advertising just to you personally. Great perk right there.

The above isn't a slam, use whatever you want, but you might as well tell me Windows is secure as tell me it beats Linux. Trouble's leaving here fine, check somewhere else.

hlrguy

[WackyOldWiz]

Originally posted by mrBen
2. WackyOldWiz - if Linux were not a commercial reality,

I believe I wrote "commercial RIVAL to the Gates empire" but if you prefer to make up your own version, leave my name out.

[andysimmons]

Ok...commercial RIVAL to the Gates empire. I believe Apache has a 58% share of the web server market right now. IIS is in 2nd place with 25%. Doesn't look like a rival to me....not much of a contest at all really.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by WackyOldWiz
I believe I wrote "commercial RIVAL to the Gates empire" but if you prefer to make up your own version, leave my name out.

Sorry - didn't mean to misquote you, which is why there were no "quote" marks ;)

What I was meaning to say was that because Linux _is_ a commercial reality, and is backed by the 3 biggest players in the IT industry (way bigger than MS if you look in the Fortune500) then maybe, just maybe, you're looking at something that will rival Microsoft.

(In point of fact, as the above notes, in some areas, namely servers, Linux is competing healthily with MS products, but let's not get sidetracked)

[WackyOldWiz]

Originally posted by andysimmons
Ok...commercial RIVAL to the Gates empire. I believe Apache has a 58% share of the web server market right now. IIS is in 2nd place with 25%.

As a derivative of Unix, I would expect the free services of dedicated Linux developers to appeal to the industrial big boys. How much of the PC market has Linux captured? Isn't Mandrake (one of the better known distros) suffering badly at the moment?:p

[Wiz]

Originally posted by doig

I'm not. I just want the OS you all keep saying you have......

The One that puts Windows to shame.
The One that deliverers unrivalled stability.
The One that offers an intuative GUI enviroment.

But the community does not deliver!

DRDW

Doig, have you considered buying a Mac? :D

[raz0rblade]

buh bye ! :)

If linux was as user friendly as windows, i would prolly would stop using it and move to freebsd. I like having to learn how to stuff in linux, cause that way I have a skill that other dont. Back when RH5.2 was released was my first time using linux, and I was frusturated because I couldnt do anything in it. But I tried again when RH6.2 cam around and didnt give up, I read books, asked questions, played around and watched my knowledge grow. Now today I can call my self a linux guru. Dont give up on linux, its a great thing, Just give it time.

[Iridesce]

Greetings,

Must put my two cents in here.

I was turned onto Linux a year or so ago.

I am not a geek, though I am very curious.

It took me 2 installs to get Mandrake 9.1 onboard and running - I was way impressed that it recognized and integrated all of my hardware.

I am using OpenOffice for all of my M$ Office work.

Does Window$ work well - yes, for many folks.

Is Linux becoming more mainstream - just ask the friends and relatives who used to balk at anything other than Window$ and are now quite happy, thank you, for my persistance.

Do I run into probs with Linux, of course - but no more that with Window$ and apps it runs - the difference being no one at M$ seems to give a rats *** about a user like me - the Linux community is getting much broader and I have received answers from others like me ( read for the most part computer illiterate and relatively headstrong ... )

Thats my rant ...

[GBH]

First of all, what is the point of replacing S in MS with $ ??? I can't even start describing how retarded that is. However, I am not here to rant about that stupidity.

ADD folk ignore the text, go staight to the bottom.

I was using Windows 98 for a while and then quickly switched to Win2000 looking for stability and speed (to some degree). Obviously WinXp was the next obvious choice even though I was pretty happy with my current setup. Then I saw the pretty buttons... and me being the sucker for eyecandy I made a switch. Honestly I don't regret it and most likely will never abandon this OS untill it becomes completely absolete for the hardware or something better rolls out from Microsoft or (hopefully) one of the Linux distributions.

I must admit thatI have very little experience with Linux and other Unix based OS's. I never was able to install any distribution as easily as XP and never had good support for my hardware (I have some pretty finnicky components) Personally I don't see how Linux can compare to WinXP just in things I'm used to do in Windows (Games come to mind). Maybe one day, not not yet.

However, I find Linux to be awesome for the stuff it does the best - servers. I have my old computer (Pentium Pro 200Mhz) running as router, firewall, webserver, file server, I even code in C and Java on the same machine all without use of X, It's all very fast and efficient. I love it.

For ADD folk:
winserver < unixserver
windesktop > unixdesktop

[iGuy]

There is nothing so heated than the ol' Windows vs. Linux thread. Hopeless as it always is, I would like to point out that it is also a set of philosophical questions.

For example "open." Back in the nineties, everyone was trying to find easter eggs in Microsoft programs. No one would ever look for easter eggs in open source programs -- what would be the point? All you would have to do is read the code. Some people want to know what they are running (can you say unknown bi-directional cookies in proprietary code?)

Personally I like the Unix philosophy of keeping it small and simple -- there is enough bloat code out there. Even when that gets forgotten, such as when Sun put out Star Office, the competing choices move it back to reliability, not bloat.

I am not even going to get into the GPL. Read Richard Stallman and makeup your own mind. But there is something that begins to happen when information is controlled. Look at the difference between the University, free information and the corporate, privately owned information on the human genome.

I can say:

I do think Linux is for those who like to mess with computers, not just use them.

I think that of all the intuitive OS's out there, Apple, not Microsoft, still has the easiest to use (and now with OSX -- its a derivative of FreeBSD) It just works, no plug and pray to it.

And lastly, I do use my computer for work. If I did not tell my peers that I run Linux, they would never know -- and I telecommute for a living; dealing in MS docs and Excel sheets by the tons everyday. (I'm sorry, but it still irks me a bit when my boss tells us that he "wrote a new program" to handle this or that -- and it is just a simple Excel sheet.)

Okay, I'll sit down now.

[Stween]

Originally posted by Wiz
Doig, have you considered buying a Mac? :D

Or, even better, BeOS?

It'd probably take a little tinkering to get it to the functional and everyday standard, but it's up there in terms of usability, stability etc etc. It's certainly got the nicest UI I've ever seen out of the box, and runs fast...

Yellow Tab (http://www.yellowtab.com/) are working on the next official release of the BeOS operating system since Be fell through.

Offtopic, perhaps, but I feel the need to plug any minority OS I've had the pleasure of using when I get the chance ;)

[MxCl]

I personally wonder why people like this who blatently haven't the patience or ability even try to use linux. There are two operating systems out there that require no work and generally work with mniumum fuss:

Windows
OS X

Linux is not easy, but it's not restrictive either and it doesn't cost you anything.

What gets me most is what makes this guy so mad? He didn't pay anything for it, and he should have been trying it out for fun, If it makes him angry that's the first sign to get off the wagon and go back to Windows surely?

[MxCl]

Software Engineering
Synthesis Software [/B]What really? I can't believe that.

No actually I can, all the places I've ever been employed I've known more than the IT staff. It seems anyone can get a job in computers at the moment.

[MB[DK]]

I like the mac, I used to own an Ibook with os9, and I hated os9, but I would love to have osX. Its the power of a BSD kernel with the professional gui.

One thing I like about windowsXP, is that everything works so well together, and the gui has a more professional look to it, where as KDE, Gnome and others are more cartoonish, and playfull, but thats just my opinion.
One thing I loathe about windowsXP is that I'm not allowed to modify any of the really important stuff such as the kernel.

[C_Pac]

Originally posted by MB[DK]

One thing I like about windowsXP, is that ... the gui has a more professional look to it.

Here's something funny (albeit a little off-topic): We gave my gf's folks a new computer with XP on it. When we booted it up the first time (our first experience with XP), my girlfriend frowned at the desktop and said, "It looks like the wallpaper in a little girl's room."

[doig]

MxCl

I personally wonder why people like this who blatently haven't the patience or ability even try to use linux. There are two operating systems out there that require no work and generally work with mniumum fuss:
Windows
OS X
Thank you so much for confirming everything I've been saying. Since you obviously hadn't read the whole thread or taken time to see what it was I was saying, It pleases me to see that you have managed to draw the same conclusions unaided!
........He didn't pay anything for it, You have a crystal ball I take it....you presume an awful lot.
Software Engineering
Synthesis Software
What really? I can't believe that.

No actually I can, all the places I've ever been employed I've known more than the IT staff. It seems anyone can get a job in computers at the moment.

As an SE I write the music, I dont wax the strings.
As a conductor I am an employer not employee.
As a ghuru to be, you might consider learning a degree of humility.

may your binaries bind well

regards duncan

[MB[DK]]

Originally posted by C_Pac
"It looks like the wallpaper in a little girl's room."

What kind of freaky wallpaper did your girlfriend grow up with? Maybe you should watch your back buddy.....

:cool:

[Stween]

Originally posted by MxCl
... all the places I've ever been employed I've known more than the IT staff.

All a matter of perspective, my friend. What do you know more about? What do they know more about?

Further, "IT staff" is a pretty ambiguous term to use in the first place.

[louis_b]

Re: dolg's rant

Linux may be faster than many other OS's including NT/Dos, it may even be more secure and it is deffinately cheaper, but......... its still crapus magnimus!
This over six years, is my fifth Linux install using an off the shelf Distribution, on up to date PC's. Never have I had a setup that came close to delivering the day to day functionality and reliability of any, of the many DOS/Windows installations.

Over the years, I've used several versions of Dos, many flavors of Windows (3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2000 and XP). My main complaint ever since 3.1 is the instability and unreliability of the Microsoft OS. Re-booting the PC 2 or 3 times a day was something that I came to believe was normal. Rebooting for software installation -- of course! After 15 years with MS, I finally decided that I'd had it and started with a dual boot Windows and RH7.2. Windows is gone for ever, now. I have the stability I wanted (I only reboot if I'm adding hardware or will be away for a couple of weeks. I run quite a few applications at once, such as Mozilla, Opera, Java, OpenOffice, Nautilus, GQView, Gimp, gmc, gedit, xmms 4 or 5 terminals, etc., etc. I'll have 20 or 30 web pages open at once. Have I had programs crash? Yes, but the OS didn't crash.

Installation was a breeze (I read the manual first); all my hardware was correctly identified even though I didn't turn off Plug and Play in the bios. Yes, I did have to do some research on a few items and read some manuals. But, the amount of documentation included is awsome and once you learn how to read the man pages, you can really get going. Forums, such as this one are great.

Burning CDs in Windows? I've got quite a collection of coasters. I've never made a bad CD in Linux and can use my box to do other work at the same time. In Windows, you hold your breath and hope nobody coughs next door. One CD burnt and a re-boot to do the next. Come on, Windows user-friendly?? Sheer torture.

Maybe the command-line interface isn't for everyone but with a little study and practice, it's easier than clicking through interminable menus.

Every day I'm finding new functionality built in. There are over 2700 programs / commands on my PC and I'm slowly figuring out how to use them. Just today I found a utility for converting postcript files into pdf files (ps2pdf) and html into pdf (htmldoc). Useful command line functions you won't find in Windows.



its still crapus magnimus

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In my experience, Linux is beautiful -- and I'm using a version that is considered out of date by now.

That's my 2 cents worth. BTW, I find it ironic that when I logged on to the forum, one of the banner ads was for Windows Tablet notebook. I guess ad money is ad money. Be nice if there was a Linux Tablet in the works.

:D

[mrgeetar]

This debate is now, and always will be ridiculous. The facts:

Linux is far more stable on average than Windows.
Linux is cheaper than Windows.
Windows is more ubiquitous in the desktop world than Linux.

And so on .. you all know these arguments.

The simple truth behind the whole argument is this: Arguing over whether or not one is "easier to use" than the other is silly, because everyone comes to the table with prior knowledge of a particular OS, and in most cases that knowledge is fairly advanced. Some people know multiple OSes, and they always know more about one in particular than the other(s).

But you take two total computer newbies of equal intelligence and dedication to learning how to use a computer, give one Windows XP and the other RedHat or Mandrake 9 with KDE/Gnome, and track their progress in learning their new toy. Both users in one year will be completely comfortable in their given OSes and applications, and both will awkwardly stumble upon confrontation with the other OS. I know hardcore open-source zealot-geeks who couldn't change a Windows file association (which app opens which file extension) if their life depended on it. I know Windows users who think a kernel is something you get stuck in your teeth after eating popcorn, but who could tell you about every major feature of Windows Media Player.

Someone attempting to learn a new OS makes the gravest error in all of computing (well, other than when rm *.* or format C: ) the minute they expect everything in their new OS to work as it does in their old one. They're different OSes -- they do things differently.

My point is this: Bashing Linux because it's not Windows, and vice versa, is a pointless effort. I'm learning Linux right now, and on both the admin and user levels I like it for a great many things. But I have to learn new ways to achieve my goals, and that's part of being a good computer user.

Side note: my Windows XP Home box runs Apache 1.3.39, PHP 4.3, MySQL 4.0, Tomcat 4.0, and I use Dreamweaver MX, Photoshop 7.0, Flash 5, HomeSite, Opera 7 and LimeWire on it (sometimes all at once) -- and the last time it rebooted was when my dog accidentally tripped the power cable 3 months ago. Billyboy's pet sure has matured a lot since 3.1, this much is certain. :)

[MxCl]

Originally posted by Stween
All a matter of perspective, my friend. What do you know more about? What do they know more about?

Further, "IT staff" is a pretty ambiguous term to use in the first place. I refer to the office I worked in my gap year and people who manage Kodak's global intranet and software.

At the office they really had employed a bunch of monkeys, they'd come to my struggling win98 box and I'd often have to help them when they tried to fix people's computer issues. I suggested dozens of tips on how to improve the networks and I was ignored. Yes I did know some things they didn't but I'm sure it was reciprical. I wouldn't have had a networking clue back then.

At kodak I know one hell of a lot more than the majority of the people here (I am 4 years more experienced than I was at the previous job). I know they are getting ripped off for software, causing themselves an administrative nightmare, using the wrong software, purchasing too many computers, upgrading too often, locking themselves into MS office and Windows and not spending enough time thinking their decisions through. I know there are some good people with more appropriate knowedlge than me high up in Kodak IS, however the majority of workers here make me laugh with their narrow perspectives and general ignorance.

My rant was due to my perspective of the industry, it is full of people attracted by the money. There are excellent individuals present, but they seem to be employed by companies that are wise the prevalance of ignorance, or they are in charge of a bunch of monkeys.

This is just how I see it. I don't work in IT so in fact I don't know any of these matters for sure. I would be happy to be corrected so please proceed :)

Also I apologise for otherwise derogatory comments in this thread. They were undeserved. I disagreed with this thread's posting in the "how I did it" forum. It is not the place for anti-linux feeling.

Finally Doig, you seem to think I accidently agreed with what you said in your post. In fact, I read your post in depth and DO agree with what you are saying. You are the kind of person that should use OSX, Linux is not ready for everyone.

[MxCl]

Originally posted by doig
As an SE I write the music, I dont wax the strings.
As a conductor I am an employer not employee.
As a ghuru to be, you might consider learning a degree of humility.

may your binaries bind well

regards duncan I apologise, I'm not proud of my comments. I think its just reading a great deal of posts around the internet and recieving emails from people who claim to be "Head of IT, MegaCorp Ltd." and yet they haven't a clue. It was a comment I shouldn't have written.

[maje87c]

i myself am having trouble w/ linux. I've given up on it until summer. Yes you need time, and yes you will eventually need help. Remember, linux is all about freedom, so even if you stray away from it, it has accomplished its purpose-freedom. If all computers used windows, you couldn't do that.

[joesbox]

i agree with the fact that linux is not for everyone. i have a guy in my office that has shown interest in linux. he asked if it was possible to "duel boot" and i said "yes but first things first. are you a patient man?" he replied with a no and i said that linux would probably not be for him. i told him that there is the situation that linux could have hardware issues and that the first thing to do is read. that is when i got the face, you know the one that says "i have to read before i use this thing called LINUX?!?!" . i handed him all fifteen distro's that i had downloaded when i started. i told him which ones were easier to use, and which were for the more experienced ones. i also told him that he would have to know his computer throughout (hardware wise). him being a hardware kinda guy i don't think that will be a problem.
i think that this is something some people don't understand. linux is a great OS. but it isn't for those that just want to be a sheep and not know anything. well that is for someone that wants to install it. once installed and setup, linux can be for my 6year old. my mom is one of these people that wouldn't like linux from the install. she has problem copying from folder to folder using winxp. but i bet that if i gave her a pre-installed linux she would be able to use it for everything that she wanted without blinking twice.
i am not saying that MS is crap. i still use it for games that i don't want to fiddle with to get working using winex. but that is cause i am lazy. but i will tell you this, it took me 6months to get my sound working but i kept it up till i fugured out what i was doing wrong. i moved away from MS more for moral and privacy reasons. i do not like the way MS makes their money nor do i like the idea that someone is watching and recording what i do on my puter.
as to the point that linux has hardware issues: here is why i think that is. linux is fairly quiet. we (and i say we meaning the OSS movement) aren't pushing our way into everyones face and making them pay for it. if there is a driver that is needed for a particular sound card(only an example) then we make it. (not me remember i am lazy j/k. i don't have that kind of knowledge ...yet) the world only knows MS for the most part therefore the hardware companies only make drivers for win. if linux was as popular as MS then i am sure that these companies would put as much effort in lin drivers as they do for win.

gawd have i been rambling all this time. i guess that everytime i see one of these posts then i got to go on and on about that each has it's good points. everything is a personal opinion and everyone has their own.
i guess that what i really wanted to convey in this post is that linux IMHO is a better OS due to the fact that i have control of what i want and can do. MS takes that freedom away. no linux isnt very user friendly... to a point. if you have the patients and the drive to do it, linux can do anything you want it do.
"that is all i have to say about that" to quote the great Forrest Gump.

[iGuy]

I guess I really did not make my point. Perhaps I should try again. Back when I first went online, there was no Windows. In fact, I was pumping all I could get out of a Zylog Z-80. But in the 80's something happened. The web began to emerge, and the mouse began to work. Suddenly, anyone could point and click away...

Simultaneously, businesses began to take the PC seriously. That was because IBM made a PC, in fact no home computer was called a PC, but IBM. It came with DOS. It was what everyone, except those weird Apple aficionados used. You wanted the same format as everyone, and you work used -- so you could use it. The De facto standard was born. Everyone marveled.

At the same time UNIX was having identity problems. By the time SCO got it, it was over. Windows won. Fine. But Windows is not the best system. It is the easy system because all the hardware is built for it. The business applications are built for it. The games are built for it. Everything went Win-tel. Everybody else translates.

And that would be fine, but if it is all there is -- then only a few companies control the entire information age. And they are proprietary. Information is no longer free. And he who controls information wins.

It is not about money. When you have 186 billion dollars in your checkbook, you are not worried about money. It is about power.

If you think that this is about how easy it is to run your favorite game, you have missed the point.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Seminole]

If you're scared, say you're scared.

Don't call it crap. Just cause you don't like it or it won't change your plug n play diaper, doesn't mean it won't ever be mainstream.

It's not all about YOU. It's about the people that care enough to give it a chance. It's about the folks that don't want it to be WINDOWS. It's about the real developers that make this product better for FREE.

It's about LEARNING. Personally I don't want to have a PC that does everything for me. I like being in control.

I like the fact that you can go just about anywhere on the net now and find a few "geeks" to talk to . It's about community and learning. I think the original poster missed that. He must have been studying for his MCSE and missed that little tid bit.

Linux isn't for everyone. That is a fact. Another fact is that it's not very tactfull to post this kind of CRAP on a Linux forum.

I'm starting to wonder what kind of software engineers most "institute of technology" "colleges" are producing.

Go ***** about Linux on Bill's board. I'm sure he and you could kiss each other's rectums for months with this crap.

I'm not scared and I'll enjoy all the benefits of a perfectly stable desktop / server for years to come. Enjoy the reboots and BSOD there buddy.

Can't use Open Office huh? Developer eh?
Can't master MySQL?

Did you even get X started before you cranked up IE 6 and started ranting?

My camera works in XP!!
How does it work?
Ummmmm Well, you follow the on screen directions, then it freezes while trying to connect, then you reboot, it hangs, you place a floppy in the drive and it asks if you want to update, then you check your mail, get infected with nimda, then you get rid of the spyware, then create a host file but I haven't figured that out. After that you hold your breath and hope that it doesn't crash while booting. If it gets back to the bloated *** desktop, you're set! Now how do I save these again? F1!! F1!! F1!!

Why not call tech support?
Cause they DON'T KNOW ANYTHING! (insert joke about IT techs here)

Besides that, I PAYED $289.00 for this masterpiece!

Sorry for being so blunt. It's 5AM I'm tired and a little loopy. Good Night....... Windows.... Bah!!

[Seminole]

PS, the Linux project could use some more developers.

Why not get off your lazy butt and start FIXING the things you don't like..

It's OPEN SOURCE you know!!!

Cause it's easier to ***** than to learn and fix!!!

[iGuy]

Seminole:

I am not sure who you are addressing. Doig (aka DrD Woodward) is not scared, or for that matter concerned. He is the one who thinks poorly of Linux. I really would not think I would care to see his programming contribution, or run his device driver.

No one is scared, but some are concerned. They are glad that Linux/GNU exists.

Get some sleep.

[Seminole]

I'm sorry for not adressing that to a particular person,
It was rather broad and I guess it was more venting than anything else.

Perhaps I should just say, "If the shoe fits" )

Rant = Over

[stevewabc]

Some people are just dumm, If I quit everytime there was a problem, I would not be were i'm at to day..

There is a saying somthing like this ... If you do today what others wont you you will to tomorrow what others cant!!!!

Let me tell you I have used Windows for years and how much money do I have to dump in it before it quit crashing? I see it as a endless pit!!!

Yes it takes time to set up Linux the way you wanted but when your done your good to go for a long long time!!!

[ashibaka]

Originally posted by doig
Never have I had a setup that came close to delivering the day to day functionality and reliability of any, of the many DOS/Windows installations.

F is for FVWM, it's good enough for me. :cool:

[Seminole]

BTW doig...
Here is a fix for your Mozilla / Java issue.
I searched for "java AND Mozilla" right here at JustLinux and found this.

You don't even have to type a symlink.

http://cgi.netscape.com/cgi-bin/pi_moreinfo.cgi?PID=10048

It will automagically install the java plugin for ya.

[l3ement]

well, as i was reading and thinking i must agree that the two operating systems are unique, and have different values behind their development. i as well, get a great amount of satisfaction out of making linux what i want it to be. even on the minor level of getting a sound card to work, im sure the enjoyment must be that much greating programming and such. in windows i was searching the net for ways to do things i wasen't supposed to, the so called -tips/tricks/hacks for windows. in linux, im learing how to get a kernel to work with the hardware to get the deisred results that i the human user am looking for. its about pride, its about community, and most of all its about the experience. adaptability is a beautiful thing, and simplicity is the basis for all of mother natures workings.

[windowsfree]

Hey y'all! this is a pretty funny post, I mean I had an easier time with Mandrake 9.0 than I did with XP, sure, windows used to feel more comfortable, warm, and tingley when I first started using Linux, frigg, there were times I wanted to chuck my computer out the window. I got a copy of XP from a friend of mine, it wasn't burned but the original he got with his system and I tried to install it, WTF?!? it didn't like my vidieo card? which by the way is a ATI Radeon 7500, and to make a long story short, after downloading drivers, etc I never did get it to work, so I decided "frigg" that! went to Staples and got Mandrake 9.0 bada bing everything worked out of the box, now I'm using Red Hat 8 and loving it, and I'm installing Debian which requires a little more attention to detail but is a very nice distro. I guess I should make my point here cause I'm getting a little long in the tooth, my point is that I switched over 100% to Linux from windows and forced myself to learn it, it wasn't that hard for the everyday stuff, I mean I do know how to read, and the not so everyday stuff, well, I'm having fun learning that too! So, to wrap this up, if you quit or look for the easy way out, you'll never achieve anything (except for making Willy Gates even more rich) BTW man does Linux have some kick a** DJing software!

[dannyman]

I'm on the brink of agreeing with the guy who started this thread. I'm an executive. I'd like to learn Linux to wean my company away from Windows. I use both Mac OSX and Windows 2000 every day, comfortably. I like the "idea" of Linux and Open Source. It looks like a great, very effective alternative to M$.

But, good God, I've been struggling with various distros for six weeks with very little satisfaction. More than 20 attempts to install Linux on my beige PowerMac G3 at home -- trying SuSe, Yellow Dog and Mandrake -- and I finally got Mandrake 9.1 to install. And the result: no sound; no printer; my SCSI devices are seen but don't work; and my DSL/internet is non-functional. I've read the HOW-TOs, but they frequently seem to raise more questions than they answer.

Total cost of this "free" software in equivalent billable hours: north of $2,000 so far, and it still doesn't work. I'm sure I could solve all these problems if I had the time, but I literally can't afford it.

I'm not trashing Linux. I admire anyone who masters it. I'll keep trying because I hate to lose. But this OS has a long, long way to go before it's suitable for mass use.

[MxCl]

Originally posted by dannyman I'm not trashing Linux. I admire anyone who masters it. I'll keep trying because I hate to lose. But this OS has a long, long way to go before it's suitable for mass use. [/B]It's probably more ready than you think. Install something like SuSE 8.2 or RH9 on an intel machine and it'll be much more likely to impress you.

Linux is multiplatform, but most people use intel processors so it will work best on an intel box.

[stevewabc]

I just had to replay to you dannyman for I have been using linux for 3 mo. now.

I must say I do agree with you, but I will be 100% MS free with in the next 2 to 3 weeks and must say it is GREAT.... I think you need to go and do a post here, for they Had me up and running in a vary short time!!! and them boys even Called be at my office to help...www.madpenguin.org/

Also Take a look at my 2 cents on linux
http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=101434

Just Dont quit !!!!

[dannyman]

Thanks, I'll check madpenguin.org out. And I've even thought of buying a Wintel machine to dump the Windows OS and install Linux, but that's not only expensive, it's also weird.

I don't mind working to figure things out; that's the best way to understand anything. But so far, Linux has been far, far more complicated and seemingly eccentric than the marketing of the popular distros suggests.

In the Mac world especially, the necessary hardware documentation can be baffling. For example, Mandrake doesn't recognize my Apple- made sound card which came with the G3. Who really makes it? How do I describe it? Where can I find the driver? I've scoured the net without luck. The same for my built-in 10Base-T ethernet connection, which Mandrake tells me isn't there. I can't tell who makes the card or whether it really has a card. I know the ethernet works because I'm networked very happily in Mac OS. Etc., etc.

So if I weren't part German and stubborn, I'd have dumped the project weeks ago. The point is, how can I possibly deploy this in a work environment with an experience like this? Again, I LIKE what I see about Linux. I just can't get there. That's sobering.

[iGuy]

Disregard this

[Gro$$]

Linux is for people who WANT to learn more. Not only is it more powerful, it is, as many have said, a better OS. Yeah so its a little tough. But you can't tell me you don't run into problems at all. Oh and have YOU ever talked with Microsoft's Tech support??? Yeah, I'm sorry but spending 2 hours on the phone, and then not being able to fix my problem is not what I call ease. Every problem I've had with linux has be answered within about 1 hour by about 10 people here, not just 1 person. Its a more friendly community. So take your pick, corps or friends.

[AlexPlank]

You are wrong. Tried RH9??????/ It is easier than windows xp. It comes with everything installed unlike windows. No need to Activate. Its 100 percent easier. You stink.

Oh yeah, java didnt work in windows xp for me.

[chris27]

Hmm,

Yet another frustrated Linux user.

I have been there, but then again probably everyone who uses Linux was there at some time. Am I wrong? Except perhaps for you "Software Engineers" out there who have an intuitive understanding of computers and can just make them work... (Well at least the ones that I know can)

To date I have both XP and Mandrake 8.2 on my machine. Of course I have always had windows around on my computer. I grew up on it, as Im sure many people have. Having windows on my machine is kind of like having an escape hatch, or at least a psychological one, just in case my Linux OS decides that it doesnt like me anymore. But to be honest, I am beginning to see Windows as more like a crutch.

As I said, I grew up with windows so I just know how things work on it in general. Things just install in Windows, they just work when you put them in for the first time. Well things better work the first time, considering how much they are charging for it! (Bugs and all). I remember the first time I tried to Install Linux on my machine. It was an old version of Red Hat. Version 5 or something. That was archaic. I felt like I was trying my hand at rocket science. I gave up on that after a while, but I read the "RED HAT FOR DUMMIES" that came with the cd just for the hell of it.

Then I bought another book, "RUNNING LINUX," and read that. Then I said, "What the Hell!" I bought SUSE 7.2 That sucked, too. It didnt recognize much hardware on my computer and I couldnt get it hooked up to the net. And no X. But, SUSE had two books that came with it. So, I read those books, too. I played with it, and tried to get some things working here and there. Of course, I always had Windows so I was never in despair. (Well, I was because windows 95 and 98 just sucked, I thought. But I could play games and use the net so I didnt care much.)

So, I read some Linux magazines and bought Mandrake 7.2 and WHAM!! It installed perfectly. Of course, I still had to play with it for 2 or 3 days to get the internet working, but I did. Mandrake sends out books, too. Two of them. I read them both. Somehow, things started to click in my mind and I became comfortable with Linux. Oh, I hadnt made my own kernel or wrote any scripts for myself, but I could use it and play with it and enjoy it. So, I bought 8.2. Hey, 8.2 had two books in it as well! I read them, both even.

So then I started feeling left out. I bought, "LEARNING THE BASH SHELL" because I was tired of not understanding what the Linux scripting people were always talking about. And, WHAM!! I started writing shell scripts. Things starting getting easier for me. All the sudden other people with linux boxes were saying things like, "Um, how do I install this software?" And behold! I knew what to do! I starting really liking Linux and thinking, "Hey! Windows cant do this nearly as well.." or "Well, Hell! I dont really even need windows around except for games.. "

But I was still feeling left out because all those Linux geeks were making their own kernels and commands and whatnot. So I went out and bought, "PRACTICAL C PROGRAMMING." I only bought that 2 weeks ago so I havnt learned it yet but Im moving along nicely. Thanks to my BASH background. So here is the story of a non-IT computer person who started learning Linux and started believing that its actually better than windows. I think I crashed my Linux system only once in how many years. Windows XP crashes for me every once in a while.

What is the moral of this story then? BUY A BOOK. READ IT. AND THEN DO IT AGAIN!

I really love Linux now. I really do. A lot of work and care went into it by people who love it for what it is. Im not a master by any means but I can use and usually figure out how to make things work. The only things that I like about XP better than mandrake right now are:

(1) web pages seem to load up faster on windows
(But downloading and uploading seem faster with Linux)

(2) There are lots of good quality graphics and sound
games and applications that Linux just doesnt have yet.

(3) If it breaks, I dont really care.....

Well, thats my 2-cents worth anyway.

[chrisdupre]

doig,
I'm sorry if this comes as being rude, but a software engineer shouldn't have this much of a problem installing j2re. Now I'm very new to Linux, but I got involved with Linux BECAUSE of the open source. I installed XP several systems and I got tired of the avtivation...., does anyone hear me. For example: When you don't activate the software within 30 days you have a system that won't even boot passed your sign in!! His wife had to type her paper at the university because XP wouldn't work!! Tell me if this isn't a pain in the neck!! I could go on for hours about the blue screen of death in Win98, is someone listening? Has anyone tried to install Windows on a old CDRom, it just isn't going to happen. Oh well, just felt like a newbie to the Linux world had to say something.

Linux Forever,
chrisdupre

[chrisdupre]

I had a friend who had XP and his wife is in college, but when she woke up the next morning she couldn't write her paper beause the activation period had ecpired. XP what a piece of junk!! Only good for games.

[Imin]

just want to share my 2 cents with u all

i'm a typical windows user, used microsoft product since windows 3.1 :D...(or is it since dos) :confused:

but i've heard so many of linux..and tried it.. and until now..never stop trying it

-i took me over 3 months just to install my sound driver
-it took me more than a month, just to update my kernel..and still unable to update it till now....:p
-my partition gone bad many times in the process of installing linux
-my XServer crashed several times (and not knowing what to do, i just reinstall linux :D) when I tried to install my display driver
-it took me years just to know linux better, means how to install packages, how to configure things, etc etc, and I am still in the process of learning linux myself and with the help of God and the good guys/gals here at justlinux

yet i never give up on linux.. yes..i'm still using windows xp as my primary OS (dual boot with my going to be reinstalled SuSE)...but God Will, the time will come when I'll be using linux as my main OS.....
cause imho, linux is like no other OS... it's more than an alternative...it's a platform for me to learn how my system works, how does OS works, and how everything else works :D

to know linux is to love linux :cool:

c ya:D

[frep45]

Amen, Imin!

[slapNUT]

IF only Linux had a few more chiefs and not so many enthusiastic indians.
Enthusiastic indian speaking. That is the most correct statement you made.

The indians use linux, the chiefs write and develop it.

Normally the old saying is true, "too many chiefs and not enough indians." But with linux the opposite is true. Why dont you learn to program and fix some of these problems, we'll call you "Poka Pulla off the Stacka".

[skeito]

deathadder: "why do people post stuff like this?? if someone really gives up why should we have to be told about it?? doesnt make sense to me but what do i no?"

Good lord amen to that one, and I am not even religious.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by doig
Maybe because they (the community) are really more interested all things technical, than addressing the practical needs of the non IT literate user.
It's not as if you're paying us to deliver that to you.

Just because you don't know enough of computers etc. to install GNU/Linux doesn't mean it sucks. After all, there are about 20 million happy GNU/Linux users. For them, GNU/Linux works just fine.
I suppose it hasn't occured to you that the problem might be related to YOU instead of GNU/Linux?

[Brat2dbone]

I am in the process of learning about Linux mainly due to MS prying into what I do on the computer, and with what they will do with Longhorn. It's bad enough that the info reports that are sent to MS if a program crashes contain unnecessary information such as a list of websites you have visited. What the heck does that have to do with a game crashing? MS is just getting rediculous with their prying. I'm the kind of person who likes to learn new things, so trying Linux just seems natural. I've already started by trying Knoppix, and am about to install Mandrake on an old computer I have (after I find a keyboard for it).

Just felt like putting my 2 cents in this thread.

[MB[DK]]

Well why don't you just disable error reporting, like the rest of us?

[Brat2dbone]

I was just using it as an example, if I can find the article, I'll put in a link. There are many other instances where XP reports to MS. I just think that is the same thing as using spyware. My intention wasn't "Window bashing", just saying I'd like to try something that doesn't try to track what software I use, what places I visit on the internet, and what scores I get in solitaire :D

[Brat2dbone]

here (http://www.winxpnews.com/index.cfm?id=59) is one of the articles I read, it doesn't get very specific on everything that is sent or what part of XP is sending everything, but it does make a reference that error reporting isn't the only thing to look out for.

[jesperht]

Perhaps i shouldnt mention that XP doesnt come with Java support installed, you have to go through a hellish upgrade...

oops.

[iDxMan]

Originally posted by MxCl
I know they are getting ripped off for software, causing themselves an administrative nightmare, using the wrong software, purchasing too many computers, upgrading too often, locking themselves into MS office and Windows and not spending enough time thinking their decisions through.

Welcome to healthcare and (from what I've seen) a good percentage of your average company. Its all I hear day after day.
eg:
`to do that we would need insert stupid request here -- that's ~50-500k`
uh, no, we already wasted enough money so everyone has a PC right? Ok, so they use it for more than email. Open IE to this php/mysql app and type stuff..
`oh no, it has to be typed into certified app xyz which is $300/license`..
whatever



My rant was due to my perspective of the industry, it is full of people attracted by the money.

Probably perpetuated by the radio shock jock ads. `you wanna make real money...... just 18seconds at our training site and poof!`. Some great people and some real idiots. We're just low on the great ones (hell, even good or mediocre would be nice) right now and the idiots slipped in under previous management.

....I'll stop here before I fall over. moo.

-r

[madcompnerd]

Originally posted by MB[DK]
Linux is cool, no doubt about it, and it has come a long way since I first tried it many years ago, but I just dont see it competing with windows XP, .NET or 2000.

Whats needed is closer integration of the different components, more and far better hardware recognition.

More integration? The beauty of Linux is that it's NOT integrated crap all designed and managed by the same group. One group simply cannot bring a quality OS out. Microsoft took on a big task when they decided to make Windows a completely modern OS, and all the trimmings(sold seperately), as one lone company. Yes it works perfectly together, but no there is no competition! America was founded on competition, I won't use an OS that is a vertical monopoly. Whether or not Windows is a horizontal monopoly is one question, but every part of it's production to sales is under one roof, a classic vertical monopoly; just in software and not production of tangible items.
I like being able to be pissed as all hell at Gnome and then switch to KDE or vica versa. What erks me about Linux is that X is it for windowing. Has someone made a compareable windowing program?! Is it faster?

[MB[DK]]

Originally posted by madcompnerd
More integration? The beauty of Linux is that it's NOT integrated crap all designed and managed by the same group.

Yes, I totally agree, I hate it when cut&paste works, wow sarkasm is a potent weapon.

America was founded on competition
Really? I always thought land, and immigrants were needed.

[madcompnerd]

America wasn't founded on immigration, a close analyzation of IMPERIALISM and COLONIALISM will reveal that moving to a colony of your same country is neither emmigration or immigration. Most Americans originally were from England, and they didn't leave England until the Revolution.
What the hell does land have to do with software?

I know it's not nice to get pissed at frustrated newbs, but when they hang around forums for months trying to scare people away I think it's different. If you don't like Linux, why are you on a Linux forum? Not sayin to go away or nothin, just why not let people make up there own mind and try using this forum for what it was intended:
TROUBLESHOOTING!

Something that is almost impossible in Windows. Find me a Windows expert I'll find a hundred Linux experts, and I don't have to pay the Linux experts, they're nice ordinary people.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by madcompnerd
What erks me about Linux is that X is it for windowing. Has someone made a compareable windowing program?! Is it faster?
There are 2 alternatives being worked on.
There's xwin.org, founded by some people who left XFree86. It's very new, so they don't have anything working yet AFAIK.
The other alternative I know of is older and already has a working product, but it isn't stable yet. I can't remember its name though :(

[MB[DK]]

Originally posted by madcompnerd

I know it's not nice to get pissed at frustrated newbs, but when they hang around forums for months trying to scare people away I think it's different. If you don't like Linux, why are you on a Linux forum? Not sayin to go away or nothin, just why not let people make up there own mind and try using this forum for what it was intended:
TROUBLESHOOTING!

Rofl! What a geek.

[Ludootje]

I found its name by looking on google.com/linux for "x alternative", it's called Fresco. http://www.fresco.org/

[madcompnerd]

Thanks man, I'll go look at those.
If there is someone in Denmark, could you please smack MB upside the head?

[MB[DK]]

Originally posted by madcompnerd
Thanks man, I'll go look at those.
If there is someone in Denmark, could you please smack MB upside the head?
I'm guessing 15 or 16 years old, right? You must be proud of yourself, attacking people with different opinions, and in such a childish way. Maybe there should be an age minimum for internet usage?

[madcompnerd]

Age limit for internet usage? This isn't a prison colony. And no I'm 18 :-p.
*sigh* I hate myself for this but:
You started it!!!

[MB[DK]]

Originally posted by madcompnerd
Age limit for internet usage? This isn't a prison colony. And no I'm 18 :-p.
*sigh* I hate myself for this but:
You started it!!!

I started it? Hehe why yes indeed, I pointed out that I want better copy&paste, and then I forced you to physically threaten me. And btw my dad is stronger than your dad.

[madcompnerd]

Oh yea, well my lawyer is more expensive than your lawyer!

[bazoukas]

Somebody kill this thread please?

:( :rolleyes:

[MB[DK]]

Just trying to lighten the mood, and defend myself from childish attacks.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by bazoukas
Somebody kill this thread please?

:( :rolleyes:
heh why? this is getting fun :D

[skeito]

Find me a Windows expert I'll find a hundred Linux experts,......

I would have to disagree with that, it is more like.

"For every linux 'expert' there are 5,500 Windows so-called 'experts'."

Thing is, it takes about 1/10th the brainpower to operate, yet 500x the brainpower to debug.

This brings me to my next quam. The mouse sucks.

#include <gripe>

Those ****ers that designed Microsoft Outlook(TM). What a piece of crap that is. Whoever the hell decided to change the damn menus and title bars every time you switch to a different section deserves to be shot. It is the most *** backwards retarded bull**** I have EVER seen in software design. When I click a damn menu that says "File" I want the same options every time! I dont want to click "File" in my Inbox, and get different options when I click "File" having outbox selected.

Took me 25 damn minutes to change one simple setting on my girl's computer, cause I had to click all over the damn place and click through.....

file,
options,
properties,
advanced,
extra,
extra properties,
extra advanced properties,
this is also another menu,
yet another menu
we just put this menu here to piss you off menu,

Then my girlfriend says to me, "I thought you were supposed to be a computer expert, this is taking you forever."

"Yea, well if they had not designed a ****ty product....."


bash$ head >> /dev/stdout

skeito

[Stween]

Originally posted by skeito
Took me 25 damn minutes to change one simple setting on my girl's computer, cause I had to click all over the damn place and click through.....

Yes, well, it's good to see that users can have difficulty using operating systems other than Linux.

Either you're exaggerating the situation, or you were unfamiliar with the system, hence the amount of time it took to get the job done. If it's the former, shame on you. If it's the latter, then that's how some linux users feel when presented with an alien environment.

Very little software designed for Linux ships with what I would consider an intuitive interface (indeed, the term is completely subjective), but what windows has going for it is some sort of standardisation in terms of the look and feel of applications which, while it may not make too much of a difference to yourself (and certainly not me), will throw off most 'average' users, which is what a fair percentage of Microsoft's market is. More often than not, the only 'standard' way to get a task done *guaranteed* on Linux, is via the command line. Is that intuitive for an end user? Hell no.

EDIT: Thinking about it, the number of menus you list is unrealistic anyway, seeing as that goes against their usability guidelines. That's too deep for most people to manage effectively. I will also add that you are correct about there being more Windows experts than Linux experts - it all goes down to proportions in terms of OS usage.

All that said, I too can sense this thread starting to smoulder further. Gah.

[skeito]

Of course it is an exageration. I was pretty pissed when I wrote it. My point is,

Who the hell decided to MOVE MENUS AND MENU OPTIONS depending on where you are in the program?

for a quick example...

file
\-new
|-open
|-print
|-save
|-prefrences

would become somthing like...

file
\-new
|-close
|-print
|-export
|-prefrences


although... clicking on the word prefrences in tree one will take you to a TOTALLY DIFFERENT POPUP MENU then tree two!

THAT is my point.

The point is that they are supposed to be designing their products for ease of use, when they throw so many options all scattered all over the damn screen with 4-5 layers of popup menus and 16 clicks to get anything done.

Yes it IS true that SOME interface quirks do exist in x products, but shame shame on the day that ANY programmer MOVES the menus. There isn't a damn thing you can not do from the prompt. In windows you are FORCED to click.

...and this brings me back to how the whole gripe started and what it was REALLY about.

"The mouse sucks. "



skeito

[madcompnerd]

It's just confusing because Windows is a clickety click world and Linux is a typety type world. Like how I used Ned Flanders language to explain it?
The advantage to a command line based administration is polymorphism. It can be extremely similar between operating systems. When you get into a gui admin system everyone makes it different, and that means tons of retraining for each system. Plus much of configuration files and command line admin helps one to learn more about how an OS works; whichs helps a lot when switching to a new OS.
Windows is a nice ease of use OS. And thanks to it's strangle hold on the PC world it's even easier because hardware is made for it. Much of Windows ease of use is due to Microsofts hardware compatibility deal. All these manufacturers conform to M$ standards. If every piece of hardware came with a program to install it's modules for Linux then Linux would really be a LOT easier to use!
Being a Linux newb really isn't for the faint of time though, it does take a lot of time and effort to switch. Took me 4 months to get my sound working!

[treydogg526tx]

okay then here's a good example...

I needed a router for my 3 pc's at home 1. TV Computer (hooked up to 61" tv to watch downloaded movies.. yay!) 2. Wife's XP box, 3. My Redhat box. I thought, okay why not, I work around 2000 server all day, I may as well have at least ONE at home. however,you can' run 2000 server on this machine. IT's a P 200Mhz with 32 Meg of memory, but guess what, redhat9 console smokes, and as far as up time.. so far 5 1/2 months and going..

oh, but I could have sold out and got a linksys or dlink, but where's the fun in that....

[madcompnerd]

1.) ease
2.) price($30 is cheaper even than an old PII in my book)
3.) Power usage
4.) portability(I know, strange to move a router but still easier :))
5.) Setup time
6.) You'll live longer, don't ask you just will

Your router probably has a better firewall though. If you spent an hour configuring it.

[treydogg526tx]

1) setting up a linux router is hard?

2) what real computer user doesn't have a PII laying around?

3) believe it or not a computer really does not require all that much power

4) ok ok, got me on this one, your right a linksys would be easier to move.... damn,,

5) As it is now, I'm supprised I've this long, and yes, my firewall is much better than a linksys or dlink

anyways, nothing wrong at ALL with a linksys, was just fun and free to setup the linux one...

[madcompnerd]

1.) Compared to plugging something in yes!
2.) Me, but I got a P pro and a P classic and a AMD k6 2; but you could use it for other things.... I do
3.) Quite a bit more than a standard router. Comparitively multiple times more. But I agree, as long as the monitor isn't on all the time.
4.) w00t I win one
5.) Can't disagree with the fun part. Although I had a linksys and hated it. Stupid thing lost all it's information when you shut it off, so it'd take it 5-10 minutes to figure things out again. My dlink is awesome, no complaints. $30 and I got a fast router with a 5 port 10/100 switch, and a lot of firewall setup options that I have no need for or care to spend the time to play with.
6.) You'll still live longer :-p

[Stween]

Originally posted by treydogg526tx
2) what real computer user doesn't have a PII laying around?

Me. MC68000, P200MMX, 950MHz Athlon, 1200MHz Athlon XP.

Skipped the Pentium II era :)

[JSimmons]

Originally posted by skeito

Those ****ers that designed Microsoft Outlook(TM). What a piece of crap that is. Whoever the hell decided to change the damn menus and title bars every time you switch to a different section deserves to be shot. It is the most *** backwards retarded bull**** I have EVER seen in software design. When I click a damn menu that says "File" I want the same options every time! I dont want to click "File" in my Inbox, and get different options when I click "File" having outbox selected.

Took me 25 damn minutes to change one simple setting on my girl's computer, cause I had to click all over the damn place and click through.....

skeito

I'm really surprised that anyone uses Outlook. I only use it at work because I have to. On my home Windows box, I use Eudora 4.2. I've never received on the much ballyhooed email viri, and it's easy to use. My wife uses it too, and even she recognises Outlook's shortcomings. If you want to do your girlfriend a favor, get her off Outlook.

[JSimmons]

I've made it a habit to try Linux about every six months to see how it's progressing. You see, I have a problem. My wife uses Windows. She plays Windows games (even those web-based pieces of carp on MSN). She uses Windows apps (at home and at work).

I want to move her over to Linux, but I certainly don't want to hear constant complaints about how this old app won't work, or that old app won't work, or the fact that she can't play her favorite games (mostly puzzle games, certainly nothing as complex as Quake or simulators). Further, I've got her fairly confident about doing things on her on own the computer, and Linux will definitely be a regressive step for her.

I think the KDE desktop is finally at the point where she can tolerate it, but the complexity of setup and maintenance where her games are concerned is keeping me from being able to move her over to Linux. Even then, Wine/WineX will certainly be a big factor in helping her make the change.

I understand that Linux is in a continuous state of public development, and that things are bound to be a little tougher to do than in Windows, but I don't have to *like* that realization, and what amazes me is that there are so many people actually defending that very paradigm.

After over ten years of development, it shouldn't be this hard to "make it go", as my dad phrases it. I'd love to move everyone I know over to Linux, but I would never get a moment's peace because they're "just end-users" who don't care about how it works as much as they do that it does, and I'll be on the phone with them constantly listening to them b*tch and moan about something.

As much as everyone hates to admit it, EVERYONE that is switching to Linux now is currently a Windows user. That means they've got very certain ideas about how they think their computer should work. While it doesn't have to *be* Windows, Linux most certainly has to allow Windows users to make the transition easily.

Linux *must* take market share from Windows if the industry wants to continue to grow and evolve. Linux *must* be acceptable to home users in order to gain that market share. If Microsoft is permitted to continue dominating the OS marketplace, believe me, Linux will not survive beyond it's current status as a curiosity on the IT fringe. There is room for every level of user in Linux, and it's up to the technically proficient user to help the process along and to embrace and nurture the less gifted. Afterall, that's how Windows was handled, and it worked wonders.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by JSimmons
I've made it a habit to try Linux about every six months to see how it's progressing.
I'm wondering: do you think GNU/Linux evolves a lot in 6 months, or do you think it's mostly staying the same?


I want to move her over to Linux, but I certainly don't want to hear constant complaints about how this old app won't work, or that old app won't work, or the fact that she can't play her favorite games (mostly puzzle games, certainly nothing as complex as Quake or simulators).
I don't know what those "old apps" are, but simple puzzle games should work with wine I think. I wouldn't recommend using winex though, since this is mostly for stuff like Quake, GTA, etc.


[QUOTE]I think the KDE desktop is finally at the point where she can tolerate it, but the complexity of setup and maintenance where her games are concerned is keeping me from being able to move her over to Linux. Even then, Wine/WineX will certainly be a big factor in helping her make the change.
What maintenance? AFAIK if you get an application working with wine, you don't need to maintain it... As for the setup, you can just click on the .exe's you want to install.
Could you explain what setup & maintenance exactly you mean?

I understand that Linux is in a continuous state of public development, and that things are bound to be a little tougher to do than in Windows, but I don't have to *like* that realization
You don't like the fact that it's publicly developed or that it's harder then windows? or both?


As much as everyone hates to admit it, EVERYONE that is switching to Linux now is currently a Windows user.
That means they've got very certain ideas about how they think their computer should work. While it doesn't have to *be* Windows, Linux most certainly has to allow Windows users to make the transition easily.
Well there are people moving from OS/2 & Mac as well...
Apart from that, the main reason why many things aren't done like Windows is because the Windows way is wrong (in general - not always of course).
Now you can argue that since they have achieved a monopoly, the Windows way is the good way, but I don't think that's the reason why they have so much market share. There ideas might have been good back in the beginning of the 90s, but I don't think they are still the good way to do stuff... so I don't see why we should copy stuff from them.
If you have the choice between making something good or something bad because people are used to the bad thing, I think you should still do it the good way - even if that implies losing potential users.

Linux *must* take market share from Windows if the industry wants to continue to grow and evolve. Linux *must* be acceptable to home users in order to gain that market share. If Microsoft is permitted to continue dominating the OS marketplace, believe me, Linux will not survive beyond it's current status as a curiosity on the IT fringe.
In the end, GNU/Linux will beat Windows. I'm sure of that. It just takes some time.

[JSimmons]

Originally posted by Ludootje
I'm wondering: do you think GNU/Linux evolves a lot in 6 months, or do you think it's mostly staying the same?

I've noticed that enough changes each time to make me that much more excited about the OS. I like that fact that it changes, but at the same time, I'm frustrated with what I perceive as major weaknesses that continue to go unaddressed, such as:

0) A too-configurable desktop. There are literally too many things that are configurable, and it overwhelms even the most seasoned Windows admin. Can you imagine what exposure would be like for a casual home user that can barely spell the word "Linux"?

1) A "start menu" system that was ill thought out and packed with too much garbage. For instance, I recently installed Mandrake 9.1, and I have two browsers in the menu. If I had installed Gnome, I would have gotten at least one more. That's pointless.

2) Installation of applications - How many different installers are there? RPM, Apt-Get, and a few others, including the ubiquitous "untar". My wife would freak out at being exposed to some_program.tar.gz, leading to your next question:


Originally posted by Ludootje
What maintenance? AFAIK if you get an application working with wine, you don't need to maintain it... As for the setup, you can just click on the .exe's you want to install.
Could you explain what setup & maintenance exactly you mean?


I'm speaking of user maintenance. I am the family technical support representitive. There's an unspoken rule that reads, "If anything weird happens, call John". I finally got everyone comfortable with Windows, and I'd love to get them comfortable with Linux, but it's just not possible. They're not techies, and they have a certain set of Windows apps that they insist on being able to use.


Originally posted by Ludootje
You don't like the fact that it's publicly developed or that it's harder then windows? or both?

I love the fact that Linux is publicly developed. I don't like the fact that it's harder to use than Windows.


Originally posted by Ludootje
Well there are people moving from OS/2 & Mac as well...
Apart from that, the main reason why many things aren't done like Windows is because the Windows way is wrong (in general - not always of course).

I am of the opinion that Windows (at it's core) is an amazingly good idea, and even works well. The Windows way is not wrong for the millions of people that need to be shown the light. You know, those people that aren't techies, and don't have the desire/time/energy to learn something completely new and foriegn. Their frst reaction is to search out something that is different or new, and then retreat to the safety of "what they had before", not because it's write or wrong, but because it's familiar. They're not concerned with "right" and "wrong".


Originally posted by Ludootje
Now you can argue that since they have achieved a monopoly, the Windows way is the good way, but I don't think that's the reason why they have so much market share.

They have the market share because they provided a fairly stable GUI on dos, and succeeded in convincing people that it will only get better, and to a point, it has. They have marketshare because they've managed to buy up small (yet critical) parts of the industry's competing and/or innovative products and either killed those products on the shelf, or implemented similar technology into their OS. Some was good for the end user, and a lot was bad.

Originally posted by Ludootje
There ideas might have been good back in the beginning of the 90s, but I don't think they are still the good way to do stuff... so I don't see why we should copy stuff from them.
If you have the choice between making something good or something bad because people are used to the bad thing, I think you should still do it the good way - even if that implies losing potential users.

Yes, we should copy things from Windows. The problem is that anybody with a hair up their butt can build their own distro. This ability invites the anarchists to do something diferent simply because Windows does it another way. The really funny part is that even if the Windows way is recognized as being better, the anarchists refuse to admit it.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludootje
[B]In the end, GNU/Linux will beat Windows. I'm sure of that. It just takes some time.

I think you're being a bit overly optimistic. The longer it takes, the less likely it is that it will happen unless some REALLY big players in the industry turn their collective backs on Microsoft, and that just ain't gonna happen as longas Microsoft is making piles of money.

[Ludootje]

0) A too-configurable desktop. There are literally too many things that are configurable, and it overwhelms even the most seasoned Windows admin. Can you imagine what exposure would be like for a casual home user that can barely spell the word "Linux"?
True, I can understand that it really confuses people - I had the same problem when I first installed GNU/Linux. On the other hand, this configurability is what most people love about GNU/Linux: they have total control over it. I don't know how this should be fixed - maybe some sort of option which gives you the possibility to turn off advanced features in order not to confuse you. It'd be hard to decide what should be hidden and what shouldn't though, because someone would need to force himself to hide the features which makes him/her love the OS so much. I agree it should be done one day, though.

1) A "start menu" system that was ill thought out and packed with too much garbage. For instance, I recently installed Mandrake 9.1, and I have two browsers in the menu. If I had installed Gnome, I would have gotten at least one more. That's pointless.
Sort of the same problem as above - GNU/Linux gives you choice, which is again one of its greatest things. Some people love konqueror, others mozilla/galeon and others opera - who should decide which one gets installed by default and which one shouldn't? They're all excellent browsers. Same goes for other applications like office suites: openoffice, koffice & gnome office: they each have their strenghts.

2) Installation of applications - How many different installers are there? RPM, Apt-Get, and a few others, including the ubiquitous "untar". My wife would freak out at being exposed to some_program.tar.gz, leading to your next question:
I doubt this problem will be solved anytime soon. What's mostly being worked toward now is frontends so that you wouldn't even know whether your distro uses apt, rpm or source installation. Many distros and both KDE & GNOME are developing really good frontends which also offer the possibility to automatically update packages for you and to let the frontend automatically download the package from the net. Most of the frontends aren't yet mature & stable enough either.

I think you're being a bit overly optimistic. The longer it takes, the less likely it is that it will happen unless some REALLY big players in the industry turn their collective backs on Microsoft, and that just ain't gonna happen as longas Microsoft is making piles of money.
Actually this is already happening - just have a look at IBM & Walmart. The big players really are getting interested in GNU/Linux. I doubt I'm overly optimistic. IMHO, it will beat Windows in the end. I don't have enough arguments to convince you of this, I just really believe it's going to happen.

[madcompnerd]

After over ten years of development, it shouldn't be this hard to "make it go", as my dad phrases it. I'd love to move everyone I know over to Linux, but I would never get a moment's peace because they're "just end-users" who don't care about how it works as much as they do that it does, and I'll be on the phone with them constantly listening to them b*tch and moan about something.
Linux isn't trying to be easy to use, only a few companies like Suse, MDK and maybe RH are shooting for Windows like ease of use. Most are looking to make it faster, more efficient, and more stable.
They don't care if it's difficult to "make it go." If you want ease of use pay $200 for a Windows license. But in my $200 worth of time I can definitely make a Linux system run! And I'd rather do that than be at work!

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by madcompnerd
Linux isn't trying to be easy to use, only a few companies like Suse, MDK and maybe RH are shooting for Windows like ease of use. Most are looking to make it faster, more efficient, and more stable.
They don't care if it's difficult to "make it go." If you want ease of use pay $200 for a Windows license. But in my $200 worth of time I can definitely make a Linux system run! And I'd rather do that than be at work!
And who decides if Linux wants to be easy to use?
Linux is a kernel, and I can assure you Linus Torvalds would like it to be used by everyone - that's why he recently approved DRM support in Linux.
I presume however you talk about the OS. In that case, everyone is free to decide what (s)he wants to make of it - an easy to use or a 'fast but hard' distro. Most people want a combination of it.

This however isn't the point - JSimmons was talking about moving average users to GNU/Linux. I can assure you most people want this to happen, even though you might want it to stay an uber1337 for h4x0rz which is incredibly hard but which guarantees you a long uptime.

"But in my $200 worth of time I can definitely make a Linux system run!"
Unless you ask for $0.1 a day, I can assure you can't make a GNU/Linux system run flawless and understand it well.

[ashibaka]

Originally posted by JSimmons
I finally got everyone comfortable with Windows, and I'd love to get them comfortable with Linux, but it's just not possible. They're not techies, and they have a certain set of Windows apps that they insist on being able to use.
Well, actually, I find Linux to be a half-decent desktop operating system.

After Windows 2000 finally broke down and my parents locked themselves out of the administrator account, I put Debian on the machine. It took about 30 seconds to configure-- seriously. With KDE and the proper shortcuts on the desktop (an internet browser, AbiWord, and Solitaire), they have had no trouble. My little brother can even play Civilization III, thanks to WineX.

[madcompnerd]

I could honestly care less who's using it. However as far as I've seen it's generally been looking to people who want stability, free, and new ideas/technology. There are some looking for ease of use too, but they're still free and stable. Windows seems to be aimed at pure ease of use, with a little stability and speed added in.
And I was speaking of Linux as a software platform in general, instead of a kernel, I know that's taboo but I don't care. Unfortunately, in spoken language words come to have more than one meaning.
I'd love to see a self configuring linux distro at the level of M$ Windows XP. I mean, the thing does do well at loading up with everything working to at least a decent level. Usually it leaves you looking for a 3d accelerator driver and nothing more, from my experience(no pun intended). But then you have a million bug updates that add more bugs and yea......

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by madcompnerd
I'd love to see a self configuring linux distro at the level of M$ Windows XP. I mean, the thing does do well at loading up with everything working to at least a decent level. Usually it leaves you looking for a 3d accelerator driver and nothing more, from my experience(no pun intended). But then you have a million bug updates that add more bugs and yea......
About the bugs & 3d driver etc, are you referring to XP or GNU/Linux? You say "the thing" but I'm not sure which you mean :)
Whatever you were referring to, I think those problems exist on both sides - whether you install Windows or GNU/Linux, you still have to do a lot of bug updates.
As for a "self configuring linux distro", those already exist - but they aren't as self-configuring as XP I think (I haven't used XP yet (and don't plan to)). SuSE & Mandrake aim to be self-configuring (RH as well I think), and they succeed in it most of the time. I think you just need to have luck: with some hardware, everything works perfectly after the install, but on other hardware you can't even install it.
When there's a new SuSE or MDK, there are a lot of reviews available about it, and there are always reviewers saying that "it worked perfectly and detected all my hardware", while others say they are "extremely dissapointed because it didn't recognise this or that hardware".

[mdwatts]

happybunny... Instead of digging up year old threads to post in, shouldn't you be spending this time to learn Linux? If you already have, then why not help out in the technical forums a bit more? :)

We already have a ongoing thread on 'The things Linux does to piss me off', so why bring back another to waste everyones time?

:confused:

[XiaoKJ]

Ok, I will dig up the old threads -- read this ENTIRE thread to understand this.

Firstly, windows and linux isn't out against each other.

2) windows has its own ground and so does linux

3) no need to flame

Enough of my disclamer...

1) I LOVE linux

2) linux gives me the choices to do the things I want

3) the starter of this thread tried a seemingly stupid way to start in a new environment -- he should have started with a live-cd[this is to day that he should seek help from EXPERTS before doing anything]

4) problems in linux[esp during installation] is mostly due to faulty /dev/hands and /dev/eyes and has nothing to do with linux itself, but in M$ win its mostly other people's(esp moronic) /dev/hands and stuff like that

5) linux is already ready for the consumer market -- look at knoppix and KDE.... its increasingly similar to windows, and has documentation and guides and WIZARDS and FANCY GUI

6) linux is secure

7) the starter of this thread used an old installer that does not auto-detect hardware -- his own fault for not checking out own hardware and targets

8) I can't believe people have such little patience and still be in IT and even heard of linux -- giving up in weeks is not tolerable esp if they do not STFW, RTFM and try

To lengthen this point, I want to say that I had started out with DOS. win 3.1 came when I want as little as 5. most of the things were greek. I managed to learn them by hard and do the simple stuff... I even read the whole dos manual[although not understanding every word]

the process wasn't simple but I was clever enough not to make silly mistakes like format c: -- at least learn about these important and common things before attempting anything!

The windows era came I became accustomed to it. regedit and the like was memorised.

finally, for the sake of feeling geeky, I tried muLinux, but I failed to get X working. It installed nicely but I didn't know all the commands and X isn't on. I felt like I was in hell.

luckily, I had the common sense to retain my windows partition and try Dragonlinux. the same thing happened. Till a few(2?) years later I tried Red Hat 9(about 2 weeks from my entrance to JL) and I was done quite easily. I even went to familiarise with the CLI by reading up info.

Now, in 3 months, I managed to know many features of linux like grub and its config, and I learnt basic vi operation. patience is very important in new things and reading is important, or at least get a mentor. giving up in weeks isn't a good idea!

Also, I have tried many other distros and now I am mesmerised with linux and I hate to think of the registry, compmgmt.msc and gpedit.msc in win XP when I could open a terminal or configfile in linux and get instant results. I also learnt to hate rebooting. (unfortunately my Ministry of Education insists on windows and is happy with the virii, and I help in maintaining the computers.)

9) no perpetual upgrading in linux unlike windows -- in fact upgrading to the newest isn't recommended...

10) no slowdown of system over time

11) easy to maintain

12) configurable with little holes

13) unlikely to be targeted

14) just works quietly and always faster than windows

15) FREE!

16) unusually lovable!!:D

If you like windows, fine, but I recommend you switch, and experience the power of linux(provided you upgrade in the correct manner)

Now, I form a "group" in school and I personally convert them to linux, and they seem to be very happy with linux although they may be dazzled by the interface. I just hate it in windows when you need to change the registry, or computer settings... even cloning seems like a headache!

I prefer gentoo although I use it the least -- knoppix and mepis in school, installs fast and live.

[Dark Ninja]

Originally posted by JSimmons
If you want to do your girlfriend a favor, get her off Outlook.

Ah, heck with the Outlook part. If you want to do your girlfriend a favor, just get her off...



I mean Windows. Get her off of WINDOWS. :D

(Ahhh...bad humor. Yes, I know. I'm sorry.)
:: hangs head in shame ::

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

hrm....

Let's let this one sink back into the depths of forgotten post-dom...

http://www.stevewolfonline.com/Downloads/DMR/Visuals/JLThreadLock.jpg